POLICE STATE 2011: 6 year old girl groped then drug tested by TSA

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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    1 question....do you have children?


    no, but if i had kids, would you trust that i not strap a bomb to him to get back at the system????

    i have a few felony convictions... have u ever heard of people going for revenge after they got themselves fired at work???

    the purpose of having these "pat downs" is to prevent bad sht from going down...


    you can have pat downs, (which suck)

    or you can have people sh*t up, (which sucks wayyyy worse...)


    having someone pat you, or your kid down... is the lesser of the two evils


    thats not to say i wouldnt be mad if someone searched my kid....

    i once cursed off a police officer for searching my girls purse.... (that didnt turn out so well)
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    Quote Originally Posted by swollen87 View Post
    no, but if i had kids, would you trust that i not strap a bomb to him to get back at the system????

    i have a few felony convictions... have u ever heard of people going for revenge after they got themselves fired at work???

    the purpose of having these "pat downs" is to prevent bad sht from going down...


    you can have pat downs, (which suck)

    or you can have people sh*t up, (which sucks wayyyy worse...)


    having someone pat you, or your kid down... is the lesser of the two evils


    thats not to say i wouldnt be mad if someone searched my kid....

    i once cursed off a police officer for searching my girls purse.... (that didnt turn out so well)
    I do understand where you are coming from, but I respectfully disagree. At the end of the day, a pat down of a 6 year old (where her parents were advised that the TSA agent was going to use the back of her hand on her "sensitive parts") to me is over the top. As I said, my daughter is 8, and anyone going down that road, I assure you will lead to no good

    Outside of that, things with all of these TSA rules and regulations have proven to not be as effective as intended. With that said, it seems to make them a tad pointless imo.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    I do understand where you are coming from, but I respectfully disagree. At the end of the day, a pat down of a 6 year old (where her parents were advised that the TSA agent was going to use the back of her hand on her "sensitive parts") to me is over the top. As I said, my daughter is 8, and anyone going down that road, I assure you will lead to no good

    Outside of that, things with all of these TSA rules and regulations have proven to not be as effective as intended. With that said, it seems to make them a tad pointless imo.
    As a father and increasingly frequent flyer, I have to respectfully disagree. ALL PEOPLE getting on a plane should be subject to the same searches. Those searches should be thorough enough to determine that there is no bomb strapped to anyone; 30 yo men, 97yo grandmothers, 3yo kids.....EVERYONE.

    I'm sorry but it seems like people just can't get over the pedophile angle here. A few bad apples in the barrel does not mean that the TSA is 100% ineffective.
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    Quote Originally Posted by specmike View Post
    I'm sorry but it seems like people just can't get over the pedophile angle here. A few bad apples in the barrel does not mean that the TSA is 100% ineffective.
    No, their history of missing things going through their "Checkpoints" is what shows they are ineffective.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DAdams91982 View Post
    No, their history of missing things going through their "Checkpoints" is what shows they are ineffective.
    100% ineffective?
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    Quote Originally Posted by specmike View Post
    As a father and increasingly frequent flyer, I have to respectfully disagree. ALL PEOPLE getting on a plane should be subject to the same searches. Those searches should be thorough enough to determine that there is no bomb strapped to anyone; 30 yo men, 97yo grandmothers, 3yo kids.....EVERYONE.

    I'm sorry but it seems like people just can't get over the pedophile angle here. A few bad apples in the barrel does not mean that the TSA is 100% ineffective.
    I understand, but I will say I think the pedophilia issue is just a part. You yourself said that you have beaten TSA screening before, thus proving a sense of ineffectiveness.

    Again, my biggest issue is that once again we continue to lose freedoms. I am not talking about flying (I agree with your previous post on this) but I do have the freedom to my personal physical space
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    What the hell happened to those machines that blew a wind on you that were supposed to detect explosives? I remember back on 05 I went though one of those. Dont know their safety data...but I was not ethically offended at least.

    On another note...Israel doesnt subject their passengers to offensive pat downs and naked body checks and they get terrorism all the time. Havent seen any issues on their airplanes either.

    They do interview techniques.

    In China...even they dont make me go through unreasonable pat-downs or naked body scanners, and they pretty much are a police state.
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    Ron Paul to TSA: Enough is Enough!

    Ron Paul is the man...he says it just the way it is. I like how he brings up how the pilot has a gun in the cokpit, but the TSA still has to put their hands down their underwear. Besides, all the pilot has to do is turn the steering wheel.

    quote:
    Ron Paul introduced legislation to protect Americans from physical and emotional abuse by federal Transportation Security Administration (TSA) employees conducting screenings at the nation's airports.
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    Be careful how much "Safety" we demand from our government or allow it to impose on us. Complete freedom is anarchy, but complete control is totalitarianism. In the middle somewhere is the balance where we maintain our personal freedoms in relative safety. I for one, am willing to risk a little of the safety aspect not to risk my personal freedoms related to privacy. Once we lose or give up our freedom in the name of safety and security, we will not get it back.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DAdams91982 View Post
    Really? You are claiming that the full body scanners are a complete success after less than a year? I am PRETTY sure there was well over a year between 9-11 and the underwear bomber, so maybe it is a bit premature to call it a success. Any common idiot can sit down and find ways to penetrate that impenetrable security.

    As for who they hire... come on man. If you are a warm body they will hire you, I do believe you have gone through a security check point and see they are not the cream of society correct? It was just two weeks ago here in missouri that a grade school teacher was secretly video taping the young girls in he class from a low angle... unless you are implying they knowingly hire pedofiles!?
    First of all, he boarded the plane in Amsterdam. They dont just hire anybody...there are all kinds of background checks and im sure if they had some kind of sexual offense against a child on their recoed, they wouldnt hire them. Somebody posted that they ARE pedofiles so that was geared more towards THAT person. There is NO way of predicting someones future actions PERIOD! So for those saying there rights are being violated, what do you suggest they do? Let people come and go as they please? So they quit doing these security checks and the moment something goes wrong, everyone acts surprised. What do you expect? I am almost positive that ANY COMMON IDIOT CANNOT FIND A WAY TO PENETRATE THAT IMPENETRATABLE SECURITY! Nice try though. I too enjoy my freedom, thats why I WILL let them grab me wherever they please, as long as I get from point A to point B in one piece.
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    Quote Originally Posted by drinkyboy View Post
    First of all, he boarded the plane in Amsterdam. They dont just hire anybody...there are all kinds of background checks and im sure if they had some kind of sexual offense against a child on their recoed, they wouldnt hire them. Somebody posted that they ARE pedofiles so that was geared more towards THAT person. There is NO way of predicting someones future actions PERIOD! So for those saying there rights are being violated, what do you suggest they do? Let people come and go as they please? So they quit doing these security checks and the moment something goes wrong, everyone acts surprised. What do you expect? I am almost positive that ANY COMMON IDIOT CANNOT FIND A WAY TO PENETRATE THAT IMPENETRATABLE SECURITY! Nice try though. I too enjoy my freedom, thats why I WILL let them grab me wherever they please, as long as I get from point A to point B in one piece.
    There you go... you just found a way to penetrate that security... board in another country, TSA just became useless and you weren't even thinking about it, thanks for making my point for me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hackos123 View Post
    Be careful how much "Safety" we demand from our government or allow it to impose on us. Complete freedom is anarchy, but complete control is totalitarianism. In the middle somewhere is the balance where we maintain our personal freedoms in relative safety. I for one, am willing to risk a little of the safety aspect not to risk my personal freedoms related to privacy. Once we lose or give up our freedom in the name of safety and security, we will not get it back.
    Take it somewhere else, that logic doesn't seem to sit well here.

    How long exactly before 911? And what type of "Security" controls were there back then?

    But yeah... we are much safer now.
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    Quote Originally Posted by drinkyboy View Post
    First of all, he boarded the plane in Amsterdam. They dont just hire anybody...there are all kinds of background checks and im sure if they had some kind of sexual offense against a child on their recoed, they wouldnt hire them. Somebody posted that they ARE pedofiles so that was geared more towards THAT person. There is NO way of predicting someones future actions PERIOD! So for those saying there rights are being violated, what do you suggest they do? Let people come and go as they please? So they quit doing these security checks and the moment something goes wrong, everyone acts surprised. What do you expect? I am almost positive that ANY COMMON IDIOT CANNOT FIND A WAY TO PENETRATE THAT IMPENETRATABLE SECURITY! Nice try though. I too enjoy my freedom, thats why I WILL let them grab me wherever they please, as long as I get from point A to point B in one piece.
    no one is saying come and go willy nilly. Quite the contrary. The issue at hand is with an offensive pat down of a 6 year old. The TSA has been shown ineffective, these are just gratuitous and unnecessary.
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    I understand what your saying but they DO use children for this stuff and just because someone has a child does not mean that they play the role of a parent. Some people have their kids hold there stash or whatever they are trying to hide. And to DAdams...but we are safe arent we? No one was hurt. You guys do realize that there is NOTHING anyone can say on this board that will be an "end all" solution to this right? When I was in the military, I was flying back to Korea in uniform and they pulled me aside to search me. I wasnt mad because I know the person you would least expect is the person that has something to hide.
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    I will say that everyone on here has a valid point. Im not hating on anyone for their views....just to be clear.
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    Also, TSA and Homeland Security are both scrutinized for profiling. So, for every search of a person fitting "the profile" of a terrorist, they have to search kids, little old ladies, and even men and women in uniform.
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    Quote Originally Posted by drinkyboy View Post
    And to DAdams...but we are safe arent we? No one was hurt.
    If your are referring to the underwear bomber, then again, the TSA did NOTHING to avert that attack. My point was that the TSA is a corporate private money grab from the Federal government that doesn't protect us anymore than prior to 911 attack. Every last security measure we have instituted has been a knee jerk reaction to something had happened.

    As I stated earlier, we do not look at people, we scan bodies and touch clothes, until we have trained officers looking people in the eyes, we are just waiting for the next attack, no more, no less. Take a look at isreals air port security, they don't violate personal space for flyers, yet are very successful in stopping terrorism even though they have 10x more attempts than here in the US.

    There is no reason to reinvent the wheel when the process has been tried and true out there.
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    Quote Originally Posted by specmike View Post
    Also, TSA and Homeland Security are both scrutinized for profiling. So, for every search of a person fitting "the profile" of a terrorist, they have to search kids, little old ladies, and even men and women in uniform.
    Profiling has proven not to work, Bruce hits that one hard. You profile muslims, the goal post will be moved.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DAdams91982 View Post
    Profiling has proven not to work, Bruce hits that one hard. You profile muslims, the goal post will be moved.

    http://www.schneier.com/essay-076.html
    That still does not change the fact that they do in fact vary their "random" searches across all lines to avoid even the appearance of profiling or any form of discrimination.
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    Quote Originally Posted by specmike View Post
    That still does not change the fact that they do in fact vary their "random" searches across all lines to avoid even the appearance of profiling or any form of discrimination.
    Did you not read what I just posted?

    I just stated profiling does not work in the native way of thinking. No use in profiling.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DAdams91982 View Post
    Did you not read what I just posted?

    I just stated profiling does not work in the native way of thinking. No use in profiling.
    YES. I READ WHAT YOU POSTED. I am NOT arguing the point of whether or not profiling works.

    I am saying that both TSA and Homeland Security have been accused of or come under scrutiny for the appearance of profiling. Now, read carefully......

    They may or may not be profiling. It may or may not work. I don't give a sh1t. The point is that they both have in fact been accused of it and have adopted tactics or techniques to avoid being accused of it again.
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    There's nothing wrong with profiling... The Protected class are a bunch of cry babies

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    Quote Originally Posted by specmike View Post
    YES. I READ WHAT YOU POSTED. I am NOT arguing the point of whether or not profiling works.

    I am saying that both TSA and Homeland Security have been accused of or come under scrutiny for the appearance of profiling. Now, read carefully......

    They may or may not be profiling. It may or may not work. I don't give a sh1t. The point is that they both have in fact been accused of it and have adopted tactics or techniques to avoid being accused of it again.
    Okay, I am done. Your response makes no point at all to the article I posted from bruce schniere and you responded in less than a minute of me posting it so there is no way you could have read it.

    So feel free to carry on defending the unnecessary TSA as I believe our debate has officially ended.
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    Quote Originally Posted by StakedCop View Post
    There's nothing wrong with profiling... The Protected class are a bunch of cry babies
    Even though it is known to be useless, I could care less about profiling... just keep your 60 year old paws off my baby maker!
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    Quote Originally Posted by DAdams91982 View Post
    Even though it is known to be useless, I could care less about profiling... just keep your 60 year old paws off my baby maker!
    I'm 99 and if I wanna give you a reach around you're gonna like it or get tazed

    Sorry it seems my sense of humor is out of control again

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    Quote Originally Posted by StakedCop View Post
    I'm 99 and if I wanna give you a reach around you're gonna like it or get tazed

    Sorry it seems my sense of humor is out of control again
    Sorry? I'm not!
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    Hahaha.. the top advertisement says it all... in my browser it is advertising SEIU!!!

    You cant make that **** up.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DAdams91982 View Post
    Sorry? I'm not!
    Oops!!! there I go with the political correctness again...

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    Quote Originally Posted by DAdams91982 View Post
    Hahaha.. the top advertisement says it all... in my browser it is advertising SEIU!!!

    You cant make that **** up.
    Haha priceless!!! Yes the SEIU, vote often and vote black

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    Quote Originally Posted by DAdams91982 View Post
    Okay, I am done. Your response makes no point at all to the article I posted from bruce schniere and you responded in less than a minute of me posting it so there is no way you could have read it.

    So feel free to carry on defending the unnecessary TSA as I believe our debate has officially ended.
    I think you are confused. I'm not defending the TSA and no, I have not had time to read any articles or books by anyone. I am making a statement based on my own personal knowledge from my law enf career.

    Quote Originally Posted by specmike View Post
    Also, TSA and Homeland Security are both scrutinized for profiling. So, for every search of a person fitting "the profile" of a terrorist, they have to search kids, little old ladies, and even men and women in uniform.

    All I said was those 2 entities have been forced to change tactics because they were accused of profiling. I don't see how you can conclude that I am defending TSA based on that statement. I have also not said ANYTHING about the effectiveness of profiling or the lack thereof. You either misread or I mistyped something above.

    Again, I am not saying profiling works. I am not defending the TSA. They suck at times. I got on a plane last year with another persons boarding pass so yeah, they have holes in their plan.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ax1 View Post
    On another note...Israel doesnt subject their passengers to offensive pat downs and naked body checks and they get terrorism all the time. Havent seen any issues on their airplanes either..
    And, just so we all are aware, what the Israeli's do is the epitome of profiling. And they are REALLY good at it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by specmike View Post
    And, just so we all are aware, what the Israeli's do is the epitome of profiling. And they are REALLY good at it.
    Ill have to look into that more....but I know they use a system of interviewing. A form of psychology and mind/body reading.
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    Quote Originally Posted by specmike View Post
    And, just so we all are aware, what the Israeli's do is the epitome of profiling. And they are REALLY good at it.
    Depends on how you define profiling. The way it is tossed around today is via race, sex, religion...etc. Which is what you are alluding to in your previous post.

    Israel does none of these things. In that article it talks about behavioral awareness training, which is what Israel performs along with a defense in depth tactics. All of which we in the USA do not do. We have one line defense, nothing in depth, and we do not look anyone in the eyes. The only thing in the US we must beat, is a computer, something easily done.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DAdams91982 View Post
    Depends on how you define profiling. The way it is tossed around today is via race, sex, religion...etc. Which is what you are alluding to in your previous post.

    Israel does none of these things. In that article it talks about behavioral awareness training, which is what Israel performs along with a defense in depth tactics. All of which we in the USA do not do. We have one line defense, nothing in depth, and we do not look anyone in the eyes. The only thing in the US we must beat, is a computer, something easily done.
    Quote Originally Posted by ax1 View Post
    Ill have to look into that more....but I know they use a system of interviewing. A form of psychology and mind/body reading.
    Google hit this instantly: PROFILING

    Israel’s approach allows most travelers to pass through airport security with relative ease. But Israeli personnel do single out small numbers of passengers for extensive searches and screening, based on profiling methods that have so far been rejected in the United States, subjecting Arabs and, in some cases, other foreign nationals to an extensive screening that comes with a steep civil liberties price.
    “The profiling system is good,” Merari said. “But it has to be done with more sensitivity.”
    “They began with my hair, even though it is only two centimeters long. They began feeling through it, then examining behind my ears, the neck, the shoulders. They began feeling me under my bra, and then continued on to my tummy. I felt as though I was under a sexual assault,” Hunaida Ghanem, an Israeli Arab resident of Jerusalem who has a PhD from Hebrew University in sociology and a postdoctoral degree from Harvard, said as she recalled an incident at the airport in June 2009.

    *

    “I have been through searches in the U.S. But what they did here was very different. It was very humiliating,” she added.

    Since then, Ghanem has declined six invitations to attend conferences abroad, saying she finds it emotionally difficult to go to the airport.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ax1 View Post
    Ill have to look into that more....but I know they use a system of interviewing. A form of psychology and mind/body reading.
    They never even talk to people. I listened to the director of security in Israel doing an interview and they look for human factors, high emotions, quirky behavior, they look into peoples eyes as they walk by. There is no emphasis on the common "Profiling" factors of sex, race, religion...
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    Quote Originally Posted by specmike View Post
    Google hit this instantly: PROFILING
    Seriously man... you read that article to refute someone, but you refuse to read one from one of the most respected security professionals in the world.

    Good grief.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DAdams91982 View Post
    Seriously man... you read that article to refute someone, but you refuse to read one from one of the most respected security professionals in the world.

    Good grief.
    Gimme a link, I'll read it.

    Quote Originally Posted by DAdams91982 View Post
    They never even talk to people. I listened to the director of security in Israel doing an interview and they look for human factors, high emotions, quirky behavior, they look into peoples eyes as they walk by. There is no emphasis on the common "Profiling" factors of sex, race, religion...
    You can't seriously believe that this security director is going to actually reveal their techniques on public TV can you? Good grief.

    It's profiling in the most classic sense. First you say profiling does not work. Now you are saying that it depends on how you define profiling.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DAdams91982 View Post
    Seriously man... you read that article to refute someone, but you refuse to read one from one of the most respected security professionals in the world.

    Good grief.
    And I question anything coming from "Ya Libnan"

    Quote Originally Posted by specmike View Post
    Gimme a link, I'll read it.
    I think he gave you a link already....it took a while to read but somehow you responded in 60 seconds.

    Quote Originally Posted by specmike View Post


    You can't seriously believe that this security director is going to actually reveal their techniques on public TV can you? Good grief.
    Thats actually a potentially a very valid statement.
    나는 2000년 10월 매들린 올브라이트 전 미 국무장관 매들린 사랑, 그 중 한 뜨거운 젠장!
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    Quote Originally Posted by specmike View Post
    Gimme a link, I'll read it.



    You can't seriously believe that this security director is going to actually reveal their techniques on public TV can you? Good grief.

    It's profiling in the most classic sense. First you say profiling does not work. Now you are saying that it depends on how you define profiling.
    I do apologize that I assumed you like everyone one else in this country terms profiling as the media is when they try to vilify it. Let me rephrase since you seem to understand what I am attempting to allude to over text. Profiling in the media terms does not work, such as appearance, race, religion, sex, creed, whatever. Performing "behavioral assessment" profiling does.

    Take that as me making an assumption I shouldn't have.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ax1 View Post
    Thats actually a potentially a very valid statement.
    The inner 3 depths he did not discuss, as I wouldn't expect them to. But the first line depths he said he would talk about openly, for the sheer fact... you cannot change hinky behavior, you cannot unstress yourself... just like a lie detector, you know how one can beat it, but it just isn't possible. Behavior assessment is a trained skill, not exactly something you can just circumvent.
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