how many sets per exercise and workout?

[hugry4more]

Just wondering what u guys think. Lots guys train 4 sets per exercise n many train 3. Is there any particular difference when it comes to your goals. I normally do 4 sets for exercises like deads, lunges, incline bench n areas that need extra strengthening. Three sets for typical bodybuilding. What do u guys think saying your goal is adding maximum size? Also how many sets per workout I normally range 18-22.

 

[rsnake21]

Sounds like alot to me since I've scaled back and took the less is more approach I've seen some good gains

 

[SuperMachoMan]

way less bro. 3 or 2 sets. failure and negatives on the last. less sets and more intensity. youtube some dorian yates and watch how he worked out, he is not a liar like Arnold

 

[SuperMachoMan]

let me be clear 3 or 2 sets per exercise. say for your chest probably around 7-10 total sets. but at a much higher intenstity/failure. this is for mass and strength

 

[hugry4more]

let me be clear 3 or 2 sets per exercise. say for your chest probably around 7-10 total sets. but at a much higher intenstity/failure. this is for mass and strength

So then how many sets per workout in your opinion is optimal for size saying you train to body parts day. For example how.many sets doing hams/calves /back?

 

[SuperMachoMan]

So then how many sets per workout in your opinion is optimal for size saying you train to body parts day. For example how.many sets doing hams/calves /back?

I dont like doing to major bodyparts at once, i like to do like a chest/triceps, and for that it be a total of like 11-13 sets. 7-9 on chest and 4 or 5 triceps.

 

[hugry4more]

I dont like doing to major bodyparts at once, i like to do like a chest/triceps, and for that it be a total of like 11-13 sets. 7-9 on chest and 4 or 5 triceps.

And you would do this once every ___ days?

 

[ZiR RED]

Hypertrophy seems to be directly related to volume - whether that volume is in a single workout or over the course of several workouts.

Rather than a steady state approach, I suggest you take a positive linear approach. In that, increase your volume over the course of 5 weeks, the 6th week reduce volume significantly and increase intensity (this is when you take things to failure and do negatives), then take an unloading week, and repeat.

Br

 

[SuperMachoMan]

if i did chest/tri on a monday id probably end up doing it again on saturday. you gotta see how your body feels. if your trying to gain size you do not want to overtrain.

 

[hugry4more]

Hypertrophy seems to be directly related to volume - whether that volume is in a single workout or over the course of several workouts.

Rather than a steady state approach, I suggest you take a positive linear approach. In that, increase your volume over the course of 5 weeks, the 6th week reduce volume significantly and increase intensity (this is when you take things to failure and do negatives), then take an unloading week, and repeat.

Br

I like this idea how would u suggest increasing volume week?

 

[asooneyeonig]

i go anywhere between 1 and 30 sets. of course i also go anywhere between 1 and 50 reps. so total sets to me doesnt mean anything without knowing the reps, intensity, frequency, and in the extreme the purpose of the exercise at the given rep/set/rest scheme.

 

[ZiR RED]

I like this idea how would u suggest increasing volume week?

First and foremost is essential progressive overload (increased weight or reps every few sessions).

Increase sets by 1 on major lifts every other week. Increase sets by 1 on minor/assistance lifts every 3rd. If you start with 3 sets of squats, bench, etc. by the 5th week you will be doing 5 sets of hopefully the same number of reps with a slightly greater load than the first week.

On the sixth week, do 1-2 sets of major lifts, but incorporate failure sets and forced reps. Lower assistance work to 2 sets per exercise.

On the seventh week, unload. So do 1-3 sets with 60% of your working weight on the major lifts, and 80% of your working weight on the minor lifts.

Br

 

[SuperMachoMan]

to many people trying to sound like kinesiology majors. ronnie coleman, lee haney, arnold, franco, dorian, they all do the same sh$t. you go in the gym, keep it short but work your a$$ off. then eat alot and rest alot. chest/tri back/bi shoulders legs

 

[ZiR RED]

to many people trying to sound like kinesiology majors. ronnie coleman, lee haney, arnold, franco, dorian, they all do the same sh$t. you go in the gym, keep it short but work your a$$ off. then eat alot and rest alot. chest/tri back/bi shoulders legs

Ronnie coleman, arnold, franco etc. all trained for 3-6 hours a day.

I have an MS in exercise physiology, am a 1/2 semester away from a PhD in ex phys, and my dissertation research is focused on how to maximize hypertrophy.

Br

 

[hugry4more]

to many people trying to sound like kinesiology majors. ronnie coleman, lee haney, arnold, franco, dorian, they all do the same sh$t. you go in the gym, keep it short but work your a$$ off. then eat alot and rest alot. chest/tri back/bi shoulders legs

You can't be running ur chops like that when ur new bro. U gotta learn who is who. And red knows his stuff!

 

[hugry4more]

First and foremost is essential progressive overload (increased weight or reps every few sessions).

Increase sets by 1 on major lifts every other week. Increase sets by 1 on minor/assistance lifts every 3rd. If you start with 3 sets of squats, bench, etc. by the 5th week you will be doing 5 sets of hopefully the same number of reps with a slightly greater load than the first week.

On the sixth week, do 1-2 sets of major lifts, but incorporate failure sets and forced reps. Lower assistance work to 2 sets per exercise.

On the seventh week, unload. So do 1-3 sets with 60% of your working weight on the major lifts, and 80% of your working weight on the minor lifts.

Br

Thanks for this ill def give it a run. I used to do something similar. I would do 4 sets on large muscles 3 on smaller. On week one start at 6 reps then increase one Rep every week. After 6 weeks go back to 6 n you should be stronger. But I always felt like I didn't gain as much strength as I should have. Prob from never deloading. Ant ways I keep u posted on how it goes..

 

[ZiR RED]

You can't be running ur chops like that when ur knew bro. U gotta learn who is who. And red knows his stuff!

I'm not above anyone....I welcome (and encourage) debate so long as its based on logic and evidence.

 

[SuperMachoMan]

( see, i called kinesiology major) From where? Im at the University of Texas and have gone through all that. but thats a lie, none of them worked out for 6 hours haha. Arnolds encylopedia was a complete lie. also they took obcenes amount of steroids. so ya if you take so much dbol that your gums bleed, your going to be able to do more. But ya thats good if you want muscle endurance, i was just speaking from pure mass. Of course though my shoulder get tired screwin in light bulbs from workn out HIT haha (not really). But im just a fan of Dorian and Mike Mentzer, they are honest and not egomaniacs like Arnold.

 

[SuperMachoMan]

(btw i am not trying to be an A$$, i like talking workout strategy and debating what is best, and new techniques, im pretty open to new workouts and trying stuff out)

 

[VS91588]

I personally stopped worrying about how many sets I do for a particular muscle group. If I'm feeling strong and really good that day and I feel like doing an extra set or 2 or if I feel like adding an exercise that day I will. I go by how my body feels and it really helped me grow

 

[ZiR RED]

( see, i called kinesiology major) From where? Im at the University of Texas and have gone through all that. but thats a lie, none of them worked out for 6 hours haha. Arnolds encylopedia was a complete lie. also they took obcenes amount of steroids. so ya if you take so much dbol that your gums bleed, your going to be able to do more. But ya thats good if you want muscle endurance, i was just speaking from pure mass. Of course though my shoulder get tired screwin in light bulbs from workn out HIT haha (not really). But im just a fan of Dorian and Mike Mentzer, they are honest and not egomaniacs like Arnold.

Springfield College in MA. Which UT are you at and what's your dissertation topic?

Yes, Arnold and all those guys I quoted are horrible examples as they had great genetics and used a lot aas; however, Mentzer and Yates used just as much. Comparing IFBB pro's to natural amateurs is like comparing asses to elbows.


If gaining size is the goal, then progressive overload and an increase in training load (volume) is key. I direct you to the following studies and meta-analysis via pubmed:
17326698
16287373
14971985
19661829
20300012
16177617
19204579 (Higher volume, multiple-set programs are recommended for maximizing hypertrophy: ACSM)

Of course, there comes the need to apply this information and test what works and what doesn't. What protocols are best in which types of people, and the individual response, etc. This is where 8 years of personal training experience, 4 years of international physical performance consulting, and now coaching a collegiate bodybuilder team have allowed me to observe, record, analyze, and come up with some pretty interesting and effective techniques.

Br

 

[hugry4more]

I personally stopped worrying about how many sets I do for a particular muscle group. If I'm feeling strong and really good that day and I feel like doing an extra set or 2 or if I feel like adding an exercise that day I will. I go by how my body feels and it really helped me grow

Yea that works for some n I use to train that way myself. But I have gotten better results by having everything planned out and tracked down this past year. What ever works for ya though.

 

[VS91588]

Yea that works for some n I use to train that way myself. But I have gotten better results by having everything planned out and tracked down this past year. What ever works for ya though.

Ofcourse bro I plan my workouts out and I have a blueprint of what I am going to do an such in advance. But if you are feeling good it really won't hurt to do extra sets or an extra exercise. If you are feeling good and strong that fay I say never hold back

 

[SuperMachoMan]

Springfield College in MA. Which UT are you at and what's your dissertation topic?

Yes, Arnold and all those guys I quoted are horrible examples as they had great genetics and used a lot aas; however, Mentzer and Yates used just as much. Comparing IFBB pro's to natural amateurs is like comparing asses to elbows.


If gaining size is the goal, then progressive overload and an increase in training load (volume) is key. I direct you to the following studies and meta-analysis via pubmed:
17326698
16287373
14971985
19661829
20300012
16177617
19204579 (Higher volume, multiple-set programs are recommended for maximizing hypertrophy: ACSM)

Of course, there comes the need to apply this information and test what works and what doesn't. What protocols are best in which types of people, and the individual response, etc. This is where 8 years of personal training experience, 4 years of international physical performance consulting, and now coaching a collegiate bodybuilder team have allowed me to observe, record, analyze, and come up with some pretty interesting and effective techniques.

Br

Cool man, ya you have been at this a while. I am in Austin. Hook'em. but i am not that far along im only 3rd year haha. If you have the time id like to show you my workout and have you tweak it or just let me know what you think. I am starting my first ph cycle, Hdrol. and really trying to bulk up and add a good amount of weight and strength.

 

[hugry4more]

way less bro. 3 or 2 sets. failure and negatives on the last. less sets and more intensity. youtube some dorian yates and watch how he worked out, he is not a liar like Arnold

Looked up Dorian really like the way he kinda turn the whole classic bb theory upside down. I even tried his style tonight based on his video. Did the chest n bi. I was so shocked how pumped I got just after one all out set. Not sure how effective it would be for overall growth. Seems like it taxes your nervous system more than anything else. But I def wanna try his style legitimately at some point.

Any thoughts red on the Yates theory ... one all out set..intensity over volume? as far as gains for a ecto?

 

[SuperMachoMan]

Looked up Dorian really like the way he kinda turn the whole classic bb theory upside down. I even tried his style tonight based on his video. Did the chest n bi. I was so shocked how pumped I got just after one all out set. Not sure how effective it would be for overall growth. Seems like it taxes your nervous system more than anything else. But I def wanna try his style legitimately at some point.

Any thoughts red on the Yates theory ... one all out set..intensity over volume? as far as gains for a ecto?

this is targeted for ecto"s man. thats what i am, this will put mass on you. an ecto can not spend hours in the gym expending calories and overtraining and expect to get mass. You hit something, bring it to failure and movie on. when you first start it youll be like "what i have alot more energy, i can do more" but youll start putting on mass faster and your strength gains will shoot up. you gotta be serious though in the gym and really push yourself, and have a good spotter that can give you those negative.

 

[VS91588]

Looked up Dorian really like the way he kinda turn the whole classic bb theory upside down. I even tried his style tonight based on his video. Did the chest n bi. I was so shocked how pumped I got just after one all out set. Not sure how effective it would be for overall growth. Seems like it taxes your nervous system more than anything else. But I def wanna try his style legitimately at some point.

Any thoughts red on the Yates theory ... one all out set..intensity over volume? as far as gains for a ecto?

Dorian did chest and bi's but not in the same session. It's a split. Probably chest in the morning and bi's in the evening. And his theory of 1 all out set is only good if you have a training partner who is just as focused as you are.

 

[hugry4more]

Dorian did chest and bi's but not in the same session. It's a split. Probably chest in the morning and bi's in the evening. And his theory of 1 all out set is only good if you have a training partner who is just as focused as you are.

Type in Dorian chest bi on utube. That's where I got it from..

 

[VS91588]

Type in Dorian chest bi on utube. That's where I got it from..

I have Blood and Guts on DVD.. And his chest and bi routine issss done on the same day just not in the same session. 2 workout sessions

 

[hugry4more]

I have Blood and Guts on DVD.. And his chest and bi routine issss done on the same day just not in the same session. 2 workout sessions

lol Okaaaay, i don't really kno what ur trying to get at but here is the direct link to yates as a trainer do chest and bi..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y86TYYpaMoA

 

[VS91588]

lol Okaaaay, i don't really kno what ur trying to get at but here is the direct link to yates as a trainer do chest and bi..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y86TYYpaMoA

Oh dude ur talking about his new segment on Bodybuilding.com? I'm talking about his actual training video from 1993

 

[AaronJP1]

Sub'd for knowledge

 

[SuperMachoMan]

You can watch his new blood and guts from bodybuilding, but also he has videos of how he trained from back in the day. Although they are slightly different, the meaning and style is the same. a working set, and then a brutal set to utter failure then move on. And yes you need a spotter

 

[ZiR RED]

Cool man, ya you have been at this a while. I am in Austin. Hook'em. but i am not that far along im only 3rd year haha. If you have the time id like to show you my workout and have you tweak it or just let me know what you think. I am starting my first ph cycle, Hdrol. and really trying to bulk up and add a good amount of weight and strength.

Sure, send me a PM or post it up

 

[ZiR RED]

this is targeted for ecto"s man. thats what i am, this will put mass on you. an ecto can not spend hours in the gym expending calories and overtraining and expect to get mass. You hit something, bring it to failure and movie on. when you first start it youll be like "what i have alot more energy, i can do more" but youll start putting on mass faster and your strength gains will shoot up. you gotta be serious though in the gym and really push yourself, and have a good spotter that can give you those negative.

Yes, I think HIT does have its greatest effects on ectomorphs with "fast metabolisms".

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Yates did 3 or 4 sets, working up in weight, and then the final one was to failure with forced reps, etc? It was Mentzer who truly did only set per exercise

Br

 

[hugry4more]

Yes, I think HIT does have its greatest effects on ectomorphs with "fast metabolisms".

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Yates did 3 or 4 sets, working up in weight, and then the final one was to failure with forced reps, etc? It was Mentzer who truly did only set per exercise

Br

So still my question is then for the ecto which is better for size. Intensity or volume

 

[SweetLou321]

Yes, I think HIT does have its greatest effects on ectomorphs with "fast metabolisms".

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Yates did 3 or 4 sets, working up in weight, and then the final one was to failure with forced reps, etc? It was Mentzer who truly did only set per exercise

Br

Ive read mentzer did the same thing as yates.

 

[SuperMachoMan]

Ya Mentzer was extreme, he do for his back 2 supersets of nautilus pullovers to lat pulldowns and finish with a deadlift and be done. dorian for some movements (usually his first like pullovers for back or incline for chest) will do a warmup, a working, then a failure. But then usally his next exercise will just be 2 sets the last one to failure.And on somethings only 1 set all out, but that was usually just when hed do a last set of single arm preacher curls or somethings. But high intensity is the best thing to do for size i am an ecto and this is my workout that i am doing to gain mass, its based of dorian's and HIT but i tweaked it for myself. Id love input (Zig Red let me know what you think)

Cycle 1
Chest/tri
Flat Bench: 3 sets
Incline Smith: 2 sets
Dumbbell flys: 3 sets
Pushdowns: 3 sets
Scull-crusher: 2 sets
Dips: 1 set
Back/biPull-over: 3 sets
HS pull-down 3 sets
Barbell rows: 2 heavy sets
Machine rows: 3 sets
Hyperextension: 1 set
Wide-grip machine row – 1 set
Heavy dumbbell curl – 2 sets
EZ curl – 2 sets
Single arm preacher – 1 set
Shoulders
Smith machine military: 3 sets
Seated side lateral: 2 sets
Cable Side Laterals: 2 sets
Read delt machine: 3 sets
Dumbbell shrugs: 3 sets
Legs/ for both cycles
Front Raises: 4 sets
Leg Press: 3 sets
Hack squat: 2 sets
Lying leg curl 2 sets
Seated leg curls: 2 sets
Calvess:5 sets

Cycle 2
Chest/tri
Decline bench: 3 sets
Incline dumbbell: 3 sets
Incline flys or flat bench: 2 sets
Scull-crushers: 3 sets
Pushdowns: 2 sets
Close grip bench: 1 set
Back/bi
Deadlifts: warm up –2 sets
Wide pull-ups: 3 sets
Cable row: 3sets
Dumbbell row: 2 sets
Preacher curl: 2 sets
Incline dumbbell: 2 sets
Shoulders
Dumbell press: 3 sets
Side laterals: 3 sets
Front laterals: 2 sets
Upright rows: 2 sets
Rear deltoid machine: 3 sets
Barbell shrugs: 2 sets


Pyramided, Failure, Negatives on Last

 

[SuperMachoMan]

BTW when i have 3 or 4 sets written, thats not 3 or 4 to failure. i pyramid up and go to failue on my last and sometimes do some negatives

 

[ScAR]

Hey bro,

If your main goal is attaining MASS, then you don't need an exact number of sets. Let intensity dictate whether you start your workout with a 3,4, or 5 sets of a compound exercise such as deadlift or squat. Once your heavy lifts are done you could stick to four sets of each following isolation exercise to further stimulate the target muscle you annihilated with the compound exercise. Try this for some lean mass.

 

[fadi]

(btw i am not trying to be an A$$, i like talking workout strategy and debating what is best, and new techniques, im pretty open to new workouts and trying stuff out)

You could have fooled us.

 

[ScAR]

Hey bro,

If your main goal is attaining MASS, then you don't need an exact number of sets. Let intensity dictate whether you start your workout with 3,4, or 5 sets of a compound exercise such as deadlift or squat. Once your heavy lifts are done you could stick to four sets of each following isolation exercise to further stimulate the target muscle you annihilated with the compound exercise. Try this for some lean mass.

 

[hugry4more]

BTW when i have 3 or 4 sets written, thats not 3 or 4 to failure. i pyramid up and go to failue on my last and sometimes do some negatives

Yea I figured. And on the ones with two sets is the first set a semi warm up last set all out..?

 

[ZiR RED]

this is my workout that i am doing to gain mass, its based of dorian's and HIT but i tweaked it for myself. Id love input (Zig Red let me know what you think)

I'll go day by day, then an over all comments:

Day 1:
I always suggest avoiding the smith machine, especially if your goal is to develop the chest as it lends to excessive lateral and horizontal forces (iow: the triceps and delts pressing against the shaft to raise the bar, versus the pecs moving it vertically).

Skull crushers should make up the crux of your tricep training. These recruit the long head to the greatest degree, which does not recieve adequate work during pressing.

Put more emphasis on dips and less on flys.

Day 2:

Nothing beats bent over barbell rows (prone grip) and pull ups for developing the back. I think your program should start with these.
I'd sub in rack pulls in place of hyper extensions.
Do shrugs on this day...they are over all part of the back.

Day 3:
Once again, sub the smith machine for a standing strict military press. Nothing is better at developing overall deltoid mass.
I don't see the need for so many versions of side laterals. If anything, add in some single arm over head DB presses.
This is a light day, and a good opportunity to add in ancillary/fixator/stabilizer work (more on that later).

Day 4:

What are front raises? Are these leg extensions?
I think you need to squat. Squats should be a staple in any routine.
You also need more hamstring work centered on hip extension. Take out the seated HS curls and add in rumanian dead lifts or good mornings.

Over all comments:

Upper body balance. Make sure every horizontal pressing movement you perform (i.e. chest press) is balanced out by a horizontal pulling movement (row). Flys should be matched with rear deltoid work. Over head presses and lateral raises should be matched with pull ups.

In addition, I always suggest more ancillary pulling work to counteract the strong scapula protractors (delts and pecs). Perform supine rows, face pulls, band pull aparts, etc. All these can be done on your shoulder day.
In addition, exercises to strengthen the lower traps, for two reasons. 1. They do not recieve adequate work in typical bodybuilding programs and play an integral role in shoulder stability (and thus your ability to hypertrophy the large muscle - pecs, etc.). 2. If you step on stage and have developed lower traps, people will be like "WTF?!?!" So, add in scapula dips, scapula pull downs, and prone scaptions.
Next, get some external rotator cuff work in. 2-3 sets of external shoulder rotations with bands, cables or dumbbells will do wonders for your shoulder health.

As for the lower body, I think you need to add in some hip abductor work (banded lateral walks, hip abd machine, etc.) for hip health. Also, some direct glute max work: dumbbell swings, hip pull throughs, hip thrusts. Doing these will increase your squat and deadlift, and thus allow you to further hypertrophy the "judged" lower body muscles - quads, hammies, etc.

Next, you need some core work...and not just spinal flexion (crunches, etc.). A few sets of prone and side bridges every workout session will do wonders for your abdomen and spinal health.

Br

 

[ISU152]

Ronnie coleman, arnold, franco etc. all trained for 3-6 hours a day.

I have an MS in exercise physiology, am a 1/2 semester away from a PhD in ex phys, and my dissertation research is focused on how to maximize hypertrophy.

Br

BAM!!! ahaha

 

[Masciaman]

i do 3 sets if im super setting 4 if im not

 

[Rodja]

The older I get, the more I think that for the first 3-4 years, lifters should focus on strength and technique. There is no reason why anyone that is 160 lbs should be doing leg extensions and cable crossovers. Focusing on the compound lifts has started to slowly subside and I rarely see people doing lots of dips, pullups, deadlifts, standing overhead press, BB rows, etc.

 

[SuperMachoMan]

I'll go day by day, then an over all comments:


Br

Awesome, I really appreciate it that man. Thats exactly what i needed for someone to do. I am definetly going to use alot or all of what you said (I have never even thought to do scapula dips and stuff) But ya i am going to add in and change some stuff. Also you said to match the pressing and the pulling, how do you usually split muscle groups up, do you like chest/tri or do you usually like chest/back or bi's and tri's?
Thanks alot,

 

[ZiR RED]

Depends....I train and program via movements, not muscles.

So I could do a push/pull for upper body. Chest/delts/tris and back/bis

Or a horizontal: chest and horizontal rows (i.e.: traps/rhomboids: barbell, tbar rows, etc.) and vertical: over head presses and pull ups/dows (lats/teres)

Right now I train my team with this split:

Dead lifts, horizontal pulling
Pecs/tris
Vertical pulling
Delts/triceps
Squats/lower body

Br

 

[kingk0ng]

Depends....I train and program via movements, not muscles.

This is exactly how I train. I prefer full body routines 10-1 over splits, unless the split is a push-pull or upper-lower.

I believe it was you ZiR RED that posted the horizontal emphasis/vertical maintenance; quad emphasis/posterior chain maintenance routine at one point. I remember viewing it. It was either you or another guy. Personally, that style of training is my favorite. I love training with 2x a week frequency with basic compound movements and having a high rep day and a low rep day.