how many sets per exercise and workout?

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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperMachoMan View Post
    (btw i am not trying to be an A$$, i like talking workout strategy and debating what is best, and new techniques, im pretty open to new workouts and trying stuff out)
    You could have fooled us.

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    Hey bro,

    If your main goal is attaining MASS, then you don't need an exact number of sets. Let intensity dictate whether you start your workout with 3,4, or 5 sets of a compound exercise such as deadlift or squat. Once your heavy lifts are done you could stick to four sets of each following isolation exercise to further stimulate the target muscle you annihilated with the compound exercise. Try this for some lean mass.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperMachoMan
    BTW when i have 3 or 4 sets written, thats not 3 or 4 to failure. i pyramid up and go to failue on my last and sometimes do some negatives
    Yea I figured. And on the ones with two sets is the first set a semi warm up last set all out..?
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperMachoMan View Post
    this is my workout that i am doing to gain mass, its based of dorian's and HIT but i tweaked it for myself. Id love input (Zig Red let me know what you think)

    I'll go day by day, then an over all comments:

    Day 1:
    I always suggest avoiding the smith machine, especially if your goal is to develop the chest as it lends to excessive lateral and horizontal forces (iow: the triceps and delts pressing against the shaft to raise the bar, versus the pecs moving it vertically).

    Skull crushers should make up the crux of your tricep training. These recruit the long head to the greatest degree, which does not recieve adequate work during pressing.

    Put more emphasis on dips and less on flys.

    Day 2:

    Nothing beats bent over barbell rows (prone grip) and pull ups for developing the back. I think your program should start with these.
    I'd sub in rack pulls in place of hyper extensions.
    Do shrugs on this day...they are over all part of the back.

    Day 3:
    Once again, sub the smith machine for a standing strict military press. Nothing is better at developing overall deltoid mass.
    I don't see the need for so many versions of side laterals. If anything, add in some single arm over head DB presses.
    This is a light day, and a good opportunity to add in ancillary/fixator/stabilizer work (more on that later).

    Day 4:

    What are front raises? Are these leg extensions?
    I think you need to squat. Squats should be a staple in any routine.
    You also need more hamstring work centered on hip extension. Take out the seated HS curls and add in rumanian dead lifts or good mornings.

    Over all comments:

    Upper body balance. Make sure every horizontal pressing movement you perform (i.e. chest press) is balanced out by a horizontal pulling movement (row). Flys should be matched with rear deltoid work. Over head presses and lateral raises should be matched with pull ups.

    In addition, I always suggest more ancillary pulling work to counteract the strong scapula protractors (delts and pecs). Perform supine rows, face pulls, band pull aparts, etc. All these can be done on your shoulder day.
    In addition, exercises to strengthen the lower traps, for two reasons. 1. They do not recieve adequate work in typical bodybuilding programs and play an integral role in shoulder stability (and thus your ability to hypertrophy the large muscle - pecs, etc.). 2. If you step on stage and have developed lower traps, people will be like "WTF?!?!" So, add in scapula dips, scapula pull downs, and prone scaptions.
    Next, get some external rotator cuff work in. 2-3 sets of external shoulder rotations with bands, cables or dumbbells will do wonders for your shoulder health.

    As for the lower body, I think you need to add in some hip abductor work (banded lateral walks, hip abd machine, etc.) for hip health. Also, some direct glute max work: dumbbell swings, hip pull throughs, hip thrusts. Doing these will increase your squat and deadlift, and thus allow you to further hypertrophy the "judged" lower body muscles - quads, hammies, etc.

    Next, you need some core work...and not just spinal flexion (crunches, etc.). A few sets of prone and side bridges every workout session will do wonders for your abdomen and spinal health.

    Br
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZiR RED View Post
    Ronnie coleman, arnold, franco etc. all trained for 3-6 hours a day.

    I have an MS in exercise physiology, am a 1/2 semester away from a PhD in ex phys, and my dissertation research is focused on how to maximize hypertrophy.

    Br
    BAM!!! ahaha
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    i do 3 sets if im super setting 4 if im not
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    The older I get, the more I think that for the first 3-4 years, lifters should focus on strength and technique. There is no reason why anyone that is 160 lbs should be doing leg extensions and cable crossovers. Focusing on the compound lifts has started to slowly subside and I rarely see people doing lots of dips, pullups, deadlifts, standing overhead press, BB rows, etc.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZiR RED View Post
    I'll go day by day, then an over all comments:


    Br
    Awesome, I really appreciate it that man. Thats exactly what i needed for someone to do. I am definetly going to use alot or all of what you said (I have never even thought to do scapula dips and stuff) But ya i am going to add in and change some stuff. Also you said to match the pressing and the pulling, how do you usually split muscle groups up, do you like chest/tri or do you usually like chest/back or bi's and tri's?
    Thanks alot,
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    Depends....I train and program via movements, not muscles.

    So I could do a push/pull for upper body. Chest/delts/tris and back/bis

    Or a horizontal: chest and horizontal rows (i.e.: traps/rhomboids: barbell, tbar rows, etc.) and vertical: over head presses and pull ups/dows (lats/teres)

    Right now I train my team with this split:

    Dead lifts, horizontal pulling
    Pecs/tris
    Vertical pulling
    Delts/triceps
    Squats/lower body

    Br
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZiR RED View Post
    Depends....I train and program via movements, not muscles.
    This is exactly how I train. I prefer full body routines 10-1 over splits, unless the split is a push-pull or upper-lower.

    I believe it was you ZiR RED that posted the horizontal emphasis/vertical maintenance; quad emphasis/posterior chain maintenance routine at one point. I remember viewing it. It was either you or another guy. Personally, that style of training is my favorite. I love training with 2x a week frequency with basic compound movements and having a high rep day and a low rep day.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja
    The older I get, the more I think that for the first 3-4 years, lifters should focus on strength and technique. There is no reason why anyone that is 160 lbs should be doing leg extensions and cable crossovers. Focusing on the compound lifts has started to slowly subside and I rarely see people doing lots of dips, pullups, deadlifts, standing overhead press, BB rows, etc.
    I made a thread asking about this.
    This just pin pointed it a bit....
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingk0ng View Post
    This is exactly how I train. I prefer full body routines 10-1 over splits, unless the split is a push-pull or upper-lower.

    I believe it was you ZiR RED that posted the horizontal emphasis/vertical maintenance; quad emphasis/posterior chain maintenance routine at one point. I remember viewing it. It was either you or another guy. Personally, that style of training is my favorite. I love training with 2x a week frequency with basic compound movements and having a high rep day and a low rep day.
    Yes, I have programmed around those and posted similar before.

    Br
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    I didn't see this mentioned in any of the total sets in this thread.

    If the total set for any particular exercise...say Military, do you count the warm up sets as part of the whole number of sets?
    (i.e. 2 warm-up, 3 working = 5 sets or only 3 sets?)
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    warmup. Like if i am doing bench i do the bar, then 135 as my warmup, then i start my real sets.
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    In my programs I only list working sets. Warm up sets are in the range of 2-5 depending on the exercise and the intensity.

    Br
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    Quote Originally Posted by VS91588 View Post
    I personally stopped worrying about how many sets I do for a particular muscle group. If I'm feeling strong and really good that day and I feel like doing an extra set or 2 or if I feel like adding an exercise that day I will. I go by how my body feels and it really helped me grow
    I am with you on this!!!!!!!!!!! listen and learn your body and you be surprised what you can do with your workouts .
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    Hey Red, would you say that if I am eating right and cycling correctly I can spend 2-4 hrs in the gym 3-4 times a week without over training?
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    The body will adapt to just about anything, given the work is progressively increased and the recovery is provided. Will 4 hour sessions be productive.....I don't know.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerime
    Hey Red, would you say that if I am eating right and cycling correctly I can spend 2-4 hrs in the gym 3-4 times a week without over training?
    Jay Cutler once said in an interview about his high volume training that you can never overtrain the body IF you are eating and providing your body with proper nutrition for what you are attempting and proper rest. But this is also coming from the guy who does not eat the typical 6 meals a day. He wakes up and eats meals throughout the night too
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    Quote Originally Posted by VS91588 View Post
    Jay Cutler once said in an interview about his high volume training that you can never overtrain the body IF you are eating and providing your body with proper nutrition for what you are attempting and proper rest. But this is also coming from the guy who does not eat the typical 6 meals a day. He wakes up and eats meals throughout the night too
    He also has nothing else in his life but eating and training. As with anything a pro BB'er says, take it with a grain of salt because they are not only genetically gifted, but also have "assistance."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja

    He also has nothing else in his life but eating and training. As with anything a pro BB'er says, take it with a grain of salt because they are not only genetically gifted, but also have "assistance."
    Ofcourse. That was my point when saying how he doesn't do the typical 6 meals a day an stuff. All he has to do daily/nightly is eat, train and relax
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    He also has nothing else in his life but eating and training. As with anything a pro BB'er says, take it with a grain of salt because they are not only genetically gifted, but also have "assistance."
    Not too mention the typical pro bodybuilding program is highly metabolic filled with few heavy compound movements (i.e.: bodybuilders are not squatting, deadlifting or cleaning 2-3 times a week such as a power lifter or olympic lifter)
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZiR RED

    Not too mention the typical pro bodybuilding program is highly metabolic filled with few heavy compound movements (i.e.: bodybuilders are not squatting, deadlifting or cleaning 2-3 times a week such as a power lifter or olympic lifter)
    I beg to differ. Just cuz a pro bodybuilder isn't trying to bench 1000lbs or whatever doesn't mean they don't do compound movements. Alot of pro bodybuilders squat, deadlift, bench.. No cleans but whatever. But yeah deff not 3 times a week I'll give you that. That's cuz a powerlifters main focuses are just the compound movements.
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    Quote Originally Posted by VS91588 View Post
    I beg to differ. Just cuz a pro bodybuilder isn't trying to bench 1000lbs or whatever doesn't mean they don't do compound movements. Alot of pro bodybuilders squat, deadlift, bench.. No cleans but whatever. But yeah deff not 3 times a week I'll give you that. That's cuz a powerlifters main focuses are just the compound movements.
    Exactly, the neural component of many bodybuilding programs, especially those done by pro's (at least, what I've seen published and on their videos) is not compound lift driven. Nor is the absolute intensity (% of the 1 RM) very high). This factor, in conjunction with what has already been mentioned allows for 4 + hours of weight lifting per day.

    Br
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    Quote Originally Posted by VS91588 View Post
    I beg to differ. Just cuz a pro bodybuilder isn't trying to bench 1000lbs or whatever doesn't mean they don't do compound movements. Alot of pro bodybuilders squat, deadlift, bench.. No cleans but whatever. But yeah deff not 3 times a week I'll give you that. That's cuz a powerlifters main focuses are just the compound movements.

    The percentages are also not comparable. BB'ers do not train at 90% and beyond.
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    A bodybuilder doesn't worry about how much he lifts but a bodybuilder will always take his muscles to 100% failure
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    Quote Originally Posted by VS91588 View Post
    A bodybuilder doesn't worry about how much he lifts but a bodybuilder will always take his muscles to 100% failure
    Training a muscle to failure does not have the CNS load that ME training does.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    The older I get, the more I think that for the first 3-4 years, lifters should focus on strength and technique. There is no reason why anyone that is 160 lbs should be doing leg extensions and cable crossovers. Focusing on the compound lifts has started to slowly subside and I rarely see people doing lots of dips, pullups, deadlifts, standing overhead press, BB rows, etc.
    1000% agreed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by VS91588
    A bodybuilder doesn't worry about how much he lifts but a bodybuilder will always take his muscles to 100% failure
    I would agree with that in most instances, but 8X Mr. O Ronnie Coleman showed the world he could deadlift 800 pounds for two reps five weeks out of the Mr. Olympia contest. That is a lot of weight for anybody.
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    and franco could deadlift even more
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    Ronnie and Franco are exceptions to bodybuilding. But b4 Ronnie Deadlift 800 for about 4 reps he previously did other sets of 15, 12, 10 reps. A bodybuilder can mix hypertrophy training and strength training together. Pyramiding the weight up
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    Yes certainly. I just wanted to shed light on the 'no bodybuilder does low reps with high weight' stigma lol. And you gotta love Franco!
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    Just thought I would add that Ronnie also put himself outta the game by hurting himself. Once he hurt his back he was never able to recover. All those insane lifts take a toll for sure.

    He is still one my favorites but I think health wise he really made some stupid choices buts that just my opinion.
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    Yeah it deff takes a toll on your body. I personally like deadlifting w/ dumbbells lately. I been reading up on FST-7; 7 sets with 30-40 second rest periods. After my back workout I grab 100-110lb dumbbells and perform that. It's really hard and you get more of a squeeze on the way up cuz you are not limited by a barbell.
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    That's cool I noticed a lot of pro bbs do deads last or toward the end of there workouts to prevent injury n focus of perfect form more that the weight.
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    Quote Originally Posted by VS91588
    Yeah it deff takes a toll on your body. I personally like deadlifting w/ dumbbells lately. I been reading up on FST-7; 7 sets with 30-40 second rest periods. After my back workout I grab 100-110lb dumbbells and perform that. It's really hard and you get more of a squeeze on the way up cuz you are not limited by a barbell.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AaronJP1

    Always full of knowledge.
    Thanks dude I appreciate it. I just notice alot of ppl keep their exercises so barbaric. The basic movements are great but change up the variations, change up the intensity. Trying new things keeps your body guessing, keeps your body changing.
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    Doing deads last is definitely a double-edged sword though. Having fatigued upper back muscles and, even more problematic, core muscles is a recipe for disaster if you're not careful. It's night and day different between athletes (not to say BBers aren't) and BBers though, so I do understand.
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    i do deads every other back workout. spinal erectors take a while to fully heal, so if your doin squats and barbell rows you dont need deadlifts every back.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperMachoMan View Post
    i do deads every other back workout. spinal erectors take a while to fully heal, so if your doin squats and barbell rows you dont need deadlifts every back.
    Why would rows take a toll on the erectors? I train the erectors 2-3x/week and it has made my back stronger than ever with much less pain.
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