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    Thumbs up JudoJosh -insert cool title here- (Havoc pulse log)


    Here it goes. I am finally down to about 187lbs now and am looking to continue with the cut and hopefully maintain whatever strength I have now and possibly even gain some. I have never tried epi before I did a Hdrol cycle more than a year ago so I am good to go. My overal goal is as always recomp/cut.

    Diet
    I will be doing a somewhat modified version of the Paleo Diet. Basically no grains or beans and very limited dairy (cheese/milk). I will eat tubers (sweet potatoes and red potatoes) every now and than to replenish glycogen. Going to cycle between carb and no carb days. Basically on days I work out I will have a potatoe and some fruit and on off days just protein and fat.

    Workout
    Jim Wendler 5/3/1. I am only lifting 3 days a week and it is a 4 day a week program so there will be some overlapping of the weeks. I am also going to be doing some boxing and judo once or twice a week depending on how dry my joints get.

    Supplements
    I will be using the pulse method as suggested by Dr. D here How to "pulse" orals

    Epi Pulse
    Wk 1 Sunday-20/ Tuesday-30/ Thursday-40
    Wk 2-7 Sunday-50/ Tuesday-50/ Thursday-50

    Half the total dose taken pre work out, and the other half taken post work out. When an odd numbered dose is used, the greater of the 2 doses will be taken pre work out.

    Other Supplements
    Cycle Support -- ** SEE BOTTOM QUESTION**
    DHEA - 25-50 mg in the AM and PM as a cortisol antagonist
    6-Bromo - AI based test-booster used nightly as extra insurance to discourage the possibility of suppression.
    Taurine - In case of pumps
    Super Cissus Rx & Fish oil - For joint health
    CLA - Help with fat loss and cuz I got a killer deal on them and have some extra bottles
    Multi - General Health

    PCT
    Recycle - PCT
    Supress-C - Cortisol Control
    Sustain Alpha - Test Booster

    *Have clomid on hand for in case but think since it is Havoc and a Pulse I should be fine (I might just use it anyway since I have it and I probably wont cycle again for some time)


    Now about the cycle support. In Dr D's post he stated
    It's also good to remember that the smaller number of dose exposures likely means faster liver clearance of your supplement. Liver ancillaries (like healthy oils and anti-oxidants) are not contraindicated, but Milk Thistle in high doses could act counter productive to gains. Therefore, if you elect to use liver protectants, reserving them for off days only might be good middle ground
    but than I have also read

    Due to the fact that Epistane is methylated and requires conversion once ingested, it does indeed put a lot of strain on the liver. So taking Milk Thistle is not advisable, it is absolutely insisted upon.
    So I am a little torn here. Should I go with CS for only off days and just take some hawthorn berry, NAC, Nettle Root, and Saw Palmetto on my "ON" days?

    As always any helpful suggestions or constructive criticism is always welcome and encouraged. If I missed anything let me know. I am currently on my deload week so I will not be starting this right away
    "The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance." - Socrates

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    1st
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilentBob187 View Post
    1st
    LMAO ... I was just in the process of reppin you a link.. damn lurker!!!

    How does it all look bud? Did I miss anything?
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    Damn thats gonna be intense! You gonna do any before and after pics? you should make some nice changes with this stack. Subbed!

    Good luck!
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgementDay View Post
    Damn thats gonna be intense! You gonna do any before and after pics? you should make some nice changes with this stack. Subbed!

    Good luck!
    Damn another one beat me to the invite lol.. Yea I will do some weekly progression pictures. I like to post them all up connected so I can see whatever changes took place. Going to post my BF%, weight, height, and current maxes as well so I can get a better guage of how I am progressing.

    Did I miss anything in the first post?? I am just tryna double check what I have laid out before I jump into it.
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    Well u invited me before I got here lol. Will look over this later when I have fresher eyes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomahawk88 View Post
    Well u invited me before I got here lol. Will look over this later when I have fresher eyes.
    It should look a little familar with some minor changes. I got the epi pulse idea from one of your logs a while back and have been meaning to try it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    LMAO ... I was just in the process of reppin you a link.. damn lurker!!!

    How does it all look bud? Did I miss anything?
    I'd listen to Dr. D if it were me running this. I suppose if your eyes/skin don't turn yellow from only taking Milk Thistle on your off days you'll probably be alright.

    It's been a long time since I've read up on pulsing. Maybe be a little heavier on the support supps than I'd go but again, I'm no expert and you've probably done a lot more reading on the subject than I have.


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    Should be a fun ride Josh..

    Im not well read on pulsing methods, so I cant really comment on it, but I am happy to follow along.
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    I am on the train.. .JJ.. pulsing methods ( am going to do some reading to edumcate me!!!!)
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    AHhhh Shiiiii!!! hahha you know its not a party unless BIGA is here. . hahah CHUGA CHUGA CHUGA CHOOOO CHOOOOO!!!!
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    This pulse looks spot on! The Milk Thistle issue is a personal thing but when in doubt I'd go with Dr D. I think if you're under 1g of milk thistle on on days you're probably OK (I usually run it straight through)
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    take some milk thistle on the off days, it'll give you peace of mind. But at 50mg 3x a week that's only 15 caps a week which is barely more than 20mg ed so not that much of a strain on the liver.

    cycle looks good
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    I agree with everyone else here on the milk thistle if pulsing take it on your days off. The milk thistle being taken around the time of the methyls can break down the compound lessening the effects from what I have read. Of coure I am pretty sure that came from Dr D as well as some of the other info. Also you could probably go a little higher on the dose with a pulse from what I remember reading in that thread. Many people are running Epistrong daily at 60mg... I would think on a pulse maybe up to 70mg could be done without too much ado.

    Yes I would take celery seed extract, Grape Seed Extract, hawthorn berry and Nettle Root / Pygeum for prostate, maybe some extra fish oils on your dosing days.

    I am watching this closely as I too am thinking of a pulse situation with Epi.
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    Sounds like a good plan you got there! Done a few epi-pulses and always been satisfied without going higher than 50 mg's. Done straight cycles as well and I cant say that the results differ much from the pulse(for me).

    A good addition to the pulse could be DAA to further fight supression(not that i felt so much of it with epi). M-drol pulse really turned my nuts into raisins

    Best of luck!!

    Regards Z
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrZ View Post
    Sounds like a good plan you got there! Done a few epi-pulses and always been satisfied without going higher than 50 mg's. Done straight cycles as well and I cant say that the results differ much from the pulse(for me).

    A good addition to the pulse could be DAA to further fight supression(not that i felt so much of it with epi). M-drol pulse really turned my nuts into raisins

    Best of luck!!

    Regards Z
    Excellent so the higher doses are not needed on the pulse it is just something many do as a liberty to do so type of thing I guess. Even better. I think I may pulse my next oral cycle. Has anyone ran a Non-Methyl with limited shutdown straight through, and just pulsed the methyl on workout days with any success? Just curious...
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73 View Post
    Excellent so the higher doses are not needed on the pulse it is just something many do as a liberty to do so type of thing I guess. Even better. I think I may pulse my next oral cycle. Has anyone ran a Non-Methyl with limited shutdown straight through, and just pulsed the methyl on workout days with any success? Just curious...
    This is one of my ideas for my next cycle, but there r so many to sift through.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilentBob187 View Post
    I'd listen to Dr. D if it were me running this. I suppose if your eyes/skin don't turn yellow from only taking Milk Thistle on your off days you'll probably be alright.

    It's been a long time since I've read up on pulsing. Maybe be a little heavier on the support supps than I'd go but again, I'm no expert and you've probably done a lot more reading on the subject than I have.
    Quote Originally Posted by RBKing View Post
    This pulse looks spot on! The Milk Thistle issue is a personal thing but when in doubt I'd go with Dr D. I think if you're under 1g of milk thistle on on days you're probably OK (I usually run it straight through)
    Quote Originally Posted by UnrealMachine View Post
    take some milk thistle on the off days, it'll give you peace of mind. But at 50mg 3x a week that's only 15 caps a week which is barely more than 20mg ed so not that much of a strain on the liver.

    cycle looks good
    Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73 View Post
    I agree with everyone else here on the milk thistle if pulsing take it on your days off. The milk thistle being taken around the time of the methyls can break down the compound lessening the effects from what I have read. Of coure I am pretty sure that came from Dr D as well as some of the other info. Also you could probably go a little higher on the dose with a pulse from what I remember reading in that thread. Many people are running Epistrong daily at 60mg... I would think on a pulse maybe up to 70mg could be done without too much ado.

    Yes I would take celery seed extract, Grape Seed Extract, hawthorn berry and Nettle Root / Pygeum for prostate, maybe some extra fish oils on your dosing days.

    I am watching this closely as I too am thinking of a pulse situation with Epi.


    Thanks for your input guys.. nice to know I didn't miss anything. Was very reassuring as I have very little experience with cycles so want to make sure I am doing it right. Since everyone is prettymuch agree'ing with Dr. D and I was leaning towards his suggestion to begin with, I think I am going to go with what he says.

    So cycle support on "OFF" days and for "ON" days no cycle support but will supplement with some celery seed extract, Grape Seed Extract, hawthorn berry and Nettle Root. Will see what the health food store has this week. Like I said before I am deloading from 531 now and will start preloading with support supps soon. Thanks again for all the input guys!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by HereToStudy View Post
    Should be a fun ride Josh..

    Im not well read on pulsing methods, so I cant really comment on it, but I am happy to follow along.
    Quote Originally Posted by islandmagic View Post
    I am on the train.. .JJ.. pulsing methods ( am going to do some reading to edumcate me!!!!)
    Quote Originally Posted by Aaelael View Post
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    Thanks for joing along guys!!! Let the party BEGIN!!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrZ View Post
    Sounds like a good plan you got there! Done a few epi-pulses and always been satisfied without going higher than 50 mg's. Done straight cycles as well and I cant say that the results differ much from the pulse(for me).

    A good addition to the pulse could be DAA to further fight supression(not that i felt so much of it with epi). M-drol pulse really turned my nuts into raisins

    Best of luck!!

    Regards Z

    I do have some bulk DAA on hand. Do you think the 6-bromo won't be enough to help against suppression? I think the 6-bromo should take care of me good enough but I will keep the DAA in mind incase I start seeing some suppression signs
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    *New question*

    I have been doing 5/3/1 for the past 6 weeks and was planning on restarting it for this cycle, partly because I am familiar with it already and know what weights to use.

    I am now debating weather or not I should try something new. This is the workout I have been considering.

    Monday
    Squat 3x5
    Bench press/press 3x5 (alternating)
    Chin-ups: 3 sets to failure or add weight if completing more than 15 reps

    Wednesday
    Squat 3x5
    Press/bench press 3x5 (alternating)
    Deadlift 1x5/Powerclean 5x3 (alternating)

    Friday
    Squat 3x5
    Bench press/press 3x5 (alternating)
    Pull-ups: 3 sets to failure or add weight if completing more than 15 reps
    It is from Rippotoes' s Starting Strength and is his Witchata Falls program. I like the simplicity of it and the emphasis on squats. I think this will compliment the epi pulse nicely.. All the squatting is sure to aide in helping put some lbs of mass on.

    Any opinions? Should I stick with 5/3/1 or switch to the Witchita Program?
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    Thanks for joing along guys!!! Let the party BEGIN!!!!!

    Oh my goodness! I could do things with that!!

    Anyway, 45-60mg is a perfect pulse dose for this compound and MT is not essential IME. I do like NAC daily though (no matter what else is going on), about 1.5g gives piece of mind for those rum-n-cokes you might occasionally enjoy on the weekend.

    Otherwise, I like the advice you've received so far from the fellas here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73 View Post
    Excellent so the higher doses are not needed on the pulse it is just something many do as a liberty to do so type of thing I guess. Even better. I think I may pulse my next oral cycle. Has anyone ran a Non-Methyl with limited shutdown straight through, and just pulsed the methyl on workout days with any success? Just curious...
    You can try and search through this old thread Results From Pulsing Thread... Post Yours! it has results from different peoples pulse attempt and there was a few combos in there. I dont know off hand what is methyled and what isnt off hand so I could tell you if waht you were suggesting is in there but take a look and see

    Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post
    Oh my goodness! I could do things with that!!

    Anyway, 45-60mg is a perfect pulse dose for this compound and MT is not essential IME. I do like NAC daily though (no matter what else is going on), about 1.5g gives piece of mind for those rum-n-cokes you might occasionally enjoy on the weekend.

    Otherwise, I like the advice you've received so far from the fellas here.
    Thanks for chiming in Dr D. I will probably try and creep up to 60mg at some point in the cycle if every thing is going well.. I will definetely add in some NAC and as for the MT would it hurt to take it on off days? It gives me more of a piece of mind, you know after reading about how important support supps are on a cycle I feel like I am doing something wrong by not taking them, but then again this feeling is just a result of my readings of straight cycles. If you recomend against MT even on off days then I will hold off on it
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    Coco! Coco... Oh how I love her the let me count the ways... Man she just makes me drool. I can't begin to explain the animalistic attraction to that azz!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    I do have some bulk DAA on hand. Do you think the 6-bromo won't be enough to help against suppression? I think the 6-bromo should take care of me good enough but I will keep the DAA in mind incase I start seeing some suppression signs
    Why take an AI on cycle with Epi, Epi crushes estrogen. I can see taking DAA on off days for sure, but not an AI. I would save that for your PCT.

    Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post
    Oh my goodness! I could do things with that!!
    AGREED! NOM NOM NOM!!!
    Anyway, 45-60mg is a perfect pulse dose for this compound and MT is not essential IME. I do like NAC daily though (no matter what else is going on), about 1.5g gives piece of mind for those rum-n-cokes you might occasionally enjoy on the weekend.

    Otherwise, I like the advice you've received so far from the fellas here.
    So do you feel that NAC is superior to MT for liver protection? What are your thoughts on Sam - E and the benefits it can bring to the table? Joint Health and liver protection are just some of them.
    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    You can try and search through this old thread Results From Pulsing Thread... Post Yours! it has results from different peoples pulse attempt and there was a few combos in there. I dont know off hand what is methyled and what isnt off hand so I could tell you if waht you were suggesting is in there but take a look and see



    Thanks for chiming in Dr D. I will probably try and creep up to 60mg at some point in the cycle if every thing is going well.. I will definetely add in some NAC and as for the MT would it hurt to take it on off days? It gives me more of a piece of mind, you know after reading about how important support supps are on a cycle I feel like I am doing something wrong by not taking them, but then again this feeling is just a result of my readings of straight cycles. If you recomend against MT even on off days then I will hold off on it
    I read a ton of that. I haven't made it all the way through yet. I am trying the pulsing method next though I think. I want to have a reference point for both straight and pulsed cycles.

    I don't think he was recommending against it but giving you his preference, that being NAC.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73 View Post
    Coco! Coco... Oh how I love her the let me count the ways... Man she just makes me drool. I can't begin to explain the animalistic attraction to that azz!!!



    Why take an AI on cycle with Epi, Epi crushes estrogen. I can see taking DAA on off days for sure, but not an AI. I would save that for your PCT.


    So do you feel that NAC is superior to MT for liver protection? What are your thoughts on Sam - E and the benefits it can bring to the table? Joint Health and liver protection are just some of them.


    I read a ton of that. I haven't made it all the way through yet. I am trying the pulsing method next though I think. I want to have a reference point for both straight and pulsed cycles.

    I don't think he was recommending against it but giving you his preference, that being NAC.
    I was going to take the 6-bromo based off of Dr D suggestion

    AI based test-booster used nightly as extra insurance to discourage the possibility of suppression.
    Is 6-bromo not an appropriate AI test booster? I wasn't sure if 6-bromo was even an AI or not so I did a quick search and I read it was. I am not too sure what Dr D reasoning was for the AI I just know he suggested it to help prevent suppression so I was gonna roll with 6-bromo. Maybe he can further elaborate why he suggests it?

    As for the milk thistle Dr D had said

    [qutoe] It's also good to remember that the smaller number of dose exposures likely means faster liver clearance of your supplement. Liver ancillaries (like healthy oils and anti-oxidants) are not contraindicated, but Milk Thistle in high doses could act counter productive to gains. Therefore, if you elect to use liver protectants, reserving them for off days only might be good middle ground. [/quote]

    He does say that in HIGH doses could be counter productive so I was thinking of just a low dose of MT daily along with the NAC and then cycle support on off days and the extracts for on days
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73 View Post
    Excellent so the higher doses are not needed on the pulse it is just something many do as a liberty to do so type of thing I guess. Even better. I think I may pulse my next oral cycle. Has anyone ran a Non-Methyl with limited shutdown straight through, and just pulsed the methyl on workout days with any success? Just curious...
    Ive done a straight cycle of prostanozol at 150 mg's with 20 mgs of mdrol on wo days. Kind of shutt me down though

    Ive ran jungle warfare when pulsing epi in the past and its good even though the status of JW is a bit of a blurr

    This thread makes me want to start a pulse of epi soon
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    Judo, I think that was his basis in basic stack designs but I would ask him directly. I have a feeling that is for the aromatizing stuff, but Epi is a very strong anti aromitase so with this specific compound I think it would not be needed. I would PM him for clarification and then let us know.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73 View Post
    Judo, I think that was his basis in basic stack designs but I would ask him directly. I have a feeling that is for the aromatizing stuff, but Epi is a very strong anti aromitase so with this specific compound I think it would not be needed. I would PM him for clarification and then let us know.
    I didn't even think of it that way. So should I still take a test booster with it? Something like DAA wouldn't be a AI would it? I also have titanium if that would be better. I will definetely shoot Dr D a PM about it and ask what he advises
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    Interested to see what Dr.D says because I took 6-bromo ED of my epi pulse... but I wouldnt say my reaction to Epi is in the norm.
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    Quote Originally Posted by metroba View Post
    Present!

    "The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance." - Socrates
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73 View Post
    ... So do you feel that NAC is superior to MT for liver protection? ...
    No, NAC is probably inferior to MT when serious liver protection is required. But it just covers so many bases. From cancer prevention to liver protection to general detox, NAC's just a good all-purpose daily supp IMO. It's also a good immune booster, increasing Th1 cytokines like IL-2 but lowering IFNs and TNFs and also some Th2s like IL-4 and IL-6. I like that profile for keeping immunity high. MT does just the opposite though, it increases lots of Th2s which generally suppress immunity, but yet it also increases Interferons (IFN-y) and Tissue Necrosis Factors (TNF-a) which really sucks IMO. That can generate a 'cytokine storm' if you ever get a hard-core infection, and if I'm going to bother taking a Th2 that just adds insult to injury the way I see it. Personally, if I was using MT and started to feel sick like I was catching a cold or flu or something, I'd stop MT until I was over it. I'd rather take something like fish oil, CLA, garlic, D3 or green tea if I wanted a solid Th2 response. Know what I mean?

    Plus, NAC isn't estrogenic like MT. That's my second biggest turn off about MT. With hard-core oral regimens MT is probably smart insurance while on, but not sure it's really needed with a pulse (except maybe a little on off days if it just makes you "feel" better.)

    It's really up to the individual, either way. You generally come to know your body and it's needs intuitively if you're a life long athlete, and always err on the side of caution for long life as an athlete.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73 View Post
    ... What are your thoughts on Sam - E and the benefits it can bring to the table? Joint Health and liver protection are just some of them. ...
    Yeah, SAMe is good stuff, it covers many bases also (including positive mental support.) It metabolizes into cysteine also, like NAC. It's just so expensive, and NAC is so relatively cheap.
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    Excellent thanks Dr.D! Good to know. I am really thinking that my next attack will be a pulse. I shut down hard core on this run and I want to see if I have the better luck with the pulse. That and I like the idea of less sides. If I can gain say 2/3rd of what i gain but only lose half of what I lost on a straight cycle I break even. That and the gains can be a little more gradual so everyone isn't suspecting I am "ON" something.

    What say you regarding the 6 Bromo on off days while using Epi? Wouldn't an anti aromitization product be kind of redundant while on a cycle of Epi which already lowers Estrogen on it's own or do you feel it would still benefit him?
    Live Hard, Laugh Hard, Love Hard and Heal Fast! - KLEEN
    Olympus Labs Rep - check us out at Olympus-Labs.com
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/252598-kleen-olympus-labs.html
  34. Primordial Performance Rep
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    Great info Dr. D.
    Just inject.
    Facebook:
    www.facebook.com/heretostudy
  35. Pro Virili Parte
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    Just came back from vitamin store with some support goodies...

    I also included pics of all the componentes for the cycle too just for fun

    If anyone can lend any suggestion to how much of the support supplements I should take on my ON days I am all ears... if not I plan on just following whatever the bottle suggest

    Here is what I got today

    Grape Seed 100mg
    Nettle Root 300mg
    Hawthorn 565 mg
    NAC 600mg
    SameE 200mg

    Everyone has been really helpfull and I appreaciate everyone offering their advice to me. I am going to start taking the support supps this week to preload and then Sunday I start the Havoc!!!!
    "The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance." - Socrates
  36. Elite Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73 View Post
    Excellent thanks Dr.D! Good to know. I am really thinking that my next attack will be a pulse. I shut down hard core on this run and I want to see if I have the better luck with the pulse. That and I like the idea of less sides. If I can gain say 2/3rd of what i gain but only lose half of what I lost on a straight cycle I break even. That and the gains can be a little more gradual so everyone isn't suspecting I am "ON" something.
    Yeah, it's a good way to avoid extremes and side effects, and PCTs. You might be pleasantly surprised at how well it works.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73 View Post
    What say you regarding the 6 Bromo on off days while using Epi? Wouldn't an anti aromitization product be kind of redundant while on a cycle of Epi which already lowers Estrogen on it's own or do you feel it would still benefit him?
    Definitely redundant with said compound, but off days probably wouldn't hurt anything and might offer a little extra support and retention/hardness.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HereToStudy View Post
    Great info Dr. D.
    Always glad to offer any insights, my friend.

    That's what's so cool about this board. It's always been a good place for guys to gather who really try to help one another without all the trolling and flaming.
  38. Elite Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    Just came back from vitamin store with some support goodies...

    I also included pics of all the componentes for the cycle too just for fun

    If anyone can lend any suggestion to how much of the support supplements I should take on my ON days I am all ears... if not I plan on just following whatever the bottle suggest

    Here is what I got today

    Grape Seed 100mg
    Nettle Root 300mg
    Hawthorn 565 mg
    NAC 600mg
    SameE 200mg

    Everyone has been really helpfull and I appreaciate everyone offering their advice to me. I am going to start taking the support supps this week to preload and then Sunday I start the Havoc!!!!
    Oh man, that's a sweet looking assortment you have there!
  39. Pro Virili Parte
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    Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post
    Definitely redundant with said compound, but off days probably wouldn't hurt anything and might offer a little extra support and retention/hardness.
    So should I take DAA on off days instead of the 6-bromo?

    I have read some of your comments in this thread on DAA (the goal with DAA) and saw you took DAA for about 6 months with no problems so I should be fine for 2 months with it. Sorry for all the questions Dr D.. I just would like to start this Sunday and want to make sure I got all the details straigtend out before I start. Thanks!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post
    Always glad to offer any insights, my friend.

    That's what's so cool about this board. It's always been a good place for guys to gather who really try to help one another without all the trolling and flaming.
    Defienetly "THEE BEST FORUM" I have EVER joined!!! Especially with all the helpfull people and I agree even when you come across a post by a douche most of the responses you see are people trying to help the poster unlike other sites where everyone would just make fun or talk crap on the poster instead of tryna help them out. Such honest, intelligent, and all around great people on this site is what keeps me coming back (including all the people who subbed into my log )
    "The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance." - Socrates
  40. Diamond Member
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    Thanks Dr D! Good info. I am done with my pct from the DMZ and am now starting to lose a little weight. Not a great feeling. I still have 11 lbs of new weight but would say I kept 7-8 lbs of muscle. I would rather grow a little more gradually and keep more. I don't have a good mentality for constant up and downs of the cycles. I need some structure and have more control of what my body is doing and reacting too. SO I think the Pulse method may be for me.
    Live Hard, Laugh Hard, Love Hard and Heal Fast! - KLEEN
    Olympus Labs Rep - check us out at Olympus-Labs.com
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/252598-kleen-olympus-labs.html
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