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psywzrd's m4ohn cycle

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    psywzrd's m4ohn cycle


    Just started my first m4ohn cycle today (using Sledge's liquid). I'm going to run it for 4-6 weeks at 6mg/day ED. I was going to run it with a transdermal consisting of 1-test and 4oht but I decided to do the m4ohn by itself instead (I'm more than a little scared of the potential for hair loss from 1-test). Anyway, I weighed in this morning at around 155-156 (5'9" tall). Training will be HIT with cardio probably twice a week (I don't want to overdo it because I don't really have any muscle to spare).

    PCT will be Nolva 40mg/day for week one, 20mg/day week two and probably 10mg/day for week three. Suggestions and/or questions are welcome.

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    What is your goal with this cycle? I heard the m4ohn was good for leaning out/dropping bodyfat. I'll follow your log because I'll prolly be trying it soon @ 8mg a day. Also heard from Sledge that running an 8wk cycle of it would be ok.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SCORPIO
    What is your goal with this cycle? I heard the m4ohn was good for leaning out/dropping bodyfat. I'll follow your log because I'll prolly be trying it soon @ 8mg a day. Also heard from Sledge that running an 8wk cycle of it would be ok.
    My goal is to basically gain some LBM and hopefully lose a tiny bit of BF since I'm pretty lean already. I tend to hold a tiny bit of BF around my midsection so I'm looking to get that elusive 6-pack to show up before the summer. Depending on how my cycle is going, I may decide to extend it and/or add a transdermal. I have 5 grams of 1-test and 2.5 grams of 4oht but like I said, I'm a little leery of the 1-test because of the hair loss potential. I may just use the 4oht but I need to do a little research to see if it's even worth it to do that with the m4ohn.
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    I am going to start an M4OHN cycle later this week. I'll probably stack with a 1-test/OHT transdermal, but I am still toying with the idea. I think it'll be a great stack, not sure on M4OHN dosages yet.
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    Longdog,

    What are you looking at in terms of the dosages for the transdermal? Have you done any transdermals before?
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    I've done several transdermal cycles.

    I will max out a bottle of t-gel with probably 7g 1-test & 3g OHT. 2-3 squirts a day should be all I need. I am leaning towards 2, & running 8-10mg of the M4OHN.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Longdog
    I've done several transdermal cycles.

    I will max out a bottle of t-gel with probably 7g 1-test & 3g OHT. 2-3 squirts a day should be all I need. I am leaning towards 2, & running 8-10mg of the M4OHN.
    Have you ever done a transdermal of just 2.5g of 4oht? I'm considering adding that to my m4ohn but I don't know if it will be effective.
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    P,
    Thanks for running an M4 only cycle. We all need a little more feedback before we start stacking it.

    Good Luck....
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    Quote Originally Posted by psywzrd
    Have you ever done a transdermal of just 2.5g of 4oht? I'm considering adding that to my m4ohn but I don't know if it will be effective.
    That would be a waste in my opinion. OHT is a good stacking agent, but does very little on its own. It goes well with 4ad. The M4OHN also has the hydroxy group so it should have some mild anti-e properties of its own. I may just stack with 1-test alone.

    If you do run it that way, don't waste a whole bottle of t-gel by only putting 2.5g in there. Take 1/4-1/2 of it & mix in another bottle.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skark
    P,
    Thanks for running an M4 only cycle. We all need a little more feedback before we start stacking it.

    Good Luck....
    I had a log on here back in Feb. or March where I ran a M4OHN stack only.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Longdog
    That would be a waste in my opinion. OHT is a good stacking agent, but does very little on its own. It goes well with 4ad. The M4OHN also has the hydroxy group so it should have some mild anti-e properties of its own. I may just stack with 1-test alone.

    If you do run it that way, don't waste a whole bottle of t-gel by only putting 2.5g in there. Take 1/4-1/2 of it & mix in another bottle.
    I think I'm just going to stick with the m4ohn by itself this time around and see what it does for me - that'll help make my recovery easier too.

    If this cylce goes well I may decide to add a transderm of 1-test and 4oht the next time to give myself a little extra boost.
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    Day 5:

    Weighed myself in this morning - no change whatsoever. I'm not noticing any effects at all (positive or negative) so far. Based on what I've read here and other places, I'm going to kick up my dosage to at least 6mg twice a day and I may go as high as 10mg twice a day once I get the caps I ordered. I've been taking Milk Thistle and NAC and I'm going add some R-ALA starting today.

    Today's workout is chest, shoulders and tris - maybe I'll see a strength increase but I'm not holding my breath.
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    Quote Originally Posted by psywzrd
    Day 5:

    Weighed myself in this morning - no change whatsoever. I'm not noticing any effects at all (positive or negative) so far. Based on what I've read here and other places, I'm going to kick up my dosage to at least 6mg twice a day and I may go as high as 10mg twice a day once I get the caps I ordered. I've been taking Milk Thistle and NAC and I'm going add some R-ALA starting today.

    Today's workout is chest, shoulders and tris - maybe I'll see a strength increase but I'm not holding my breath.

    Got my caps today - they expire in late 2006. The HM Brand. Give it till day 9 until you see strength gain. Adding R-ALA is a great idea.
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    It is my opinion that you can step up the calories and avoid adding bodyfat. Calories at maintance will probably result in losing body fat rather than adding lean mass. Calories slightly above should result in lean body mass and still also body fat lost. That is my experience.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deoudes59
    Got my caps today - they expire in late 2006. The HM Brand. Give it till day 9 until you see strength gain. Adding R-ALA is a great idea.
    That's the same thing I ordered as well - I got a pretty good deal on 2 bottles and since I don't like taking liquids, I'm going to start the caps as soon as they come (probably Tuesday at the latest). I'm planning on 4 caps/day (20mg total) and I'll probably try to split the dosages up throughout the day.

    I got back from the gym a little while ago and definitely did not notice any increase in strength or vascularity. I'm hoping to see some positive results this week as I increase my dosage.
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    takes a while to kick in - day 9
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    Here's a quick update.

    Day 7: Trained back, biceps and traps. No noticeable strength increase and although I did get a mean pump doing bis, I always do so I can't credit the m4ohn for that.

    Day 8: I wanted to weigh myself first thing in the morning but I forgot so I weighed myself after breakfast and my morning turd (breakfast was my usual protein shake and the turd was nothing to write home about). Anyway, I weighed in at a massive 160 so I'm thinking that it's more like 158 when you factor in the protein shake and the lack of a quality morning dump. That's basically two or three pounds gained in a little over a week and although I'm sure some of it is water, I'm not bloated at all. I upped my dosage to 12mg/day 3 days ago, so maybe that has something to do with the weight increase over the last few days. I'm hoping to get my capsules today and if I do, my dosage will probably be 20mg/day for the remainder of my cycle.

    One other thing to add is that I've been blessed with a shiny new zit on my cheek. I have no idea if it's related to the m4ohn but I'm not happy about it at all. I've started taking some B5 and I have some guggul on the way so that will be added to my cycle as well (can you tell I'm really vain? ).
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    Just a follow up to my post yesterday. I weighed myself first thing this morning (day 9) to double-check my results from yesterday and sure enough I weighed in around 158-159 - that's a gain of 2-4 lbs. in 9 days so far. Also, my caps came yesterday so today is my first day at 20mg/day. Hopefully some strength increases will come this week as well.
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    were you using Sledges' m4ohn before?
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    Quote Originally Posted by psywzrd
    Just a follow up to my post yesterday. I weighed myself first thing this morning (day 9) to double-check my results from yesterday and sure enough I weighed in around 158-159 - that's a gain of 2-4 lbs. in 9 days so far. Also, my caps came yesterday so today is my first day at 20mg/day. Hopefully some strength increases will come this week as well.
    It's good to see that you're making gains. I've been on it a week, & noticed nothing yet. I've lost about 5lbs, but I am taking tri-max too. I started at 8mg, & bumped gradually up to 16mg today. I will go to 20mg tomorrow.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deoudes59
    were you using Sledges' m4ohn before?
    Yes.
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    I have a new finding that may shed a little light on HM Gear's M4OHN.

    On Sledge's M4OHN, I had no hairloss at all (dosed: 6mg-10mg).
    Now, on HM Gears' I'm have experienced a little shedding in the past couple days (@ 20mgs). Now It early to draw conclusions but, correct me if i'm wrong - there should be no DHT side effects whatsoever - regardless of the dose.

    This tells me there might be something else other than M4ohn in Oxanavar.

    I will be monitoring this closely. I suggest anyone who made the switch from Sledge's product to HMs to do the same. Or anyone who has been using Oxanavar.

    It's early to draw a conclusion here, but its concerning nonetheless.
    I am going to post this in a couple other threads.
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    Not much new to report. Day 14 and my weight is holding steady around 158-159. Haven't noticed any drastic changes in body composition yet and I'm not really seeing any muscle hardness or increased vascularity. Strength is up ever so slightly (did chest, tris and shoulders on Day 12). Back, bis and traps today. No sides to speak of so far other than that one zit I noted about a week ago (it's taking its sweet time going away). Haven't noticed any shedding either (fingers crossed).
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    Day 19: Weight was back down to 156 today - I guess I need to up my calories. I'm not noticing any major body composition changes and strength was about the same today (chest, shoulders and tris). About the only thing I'm noticing so far is a little bit of acne on my face. There's no way for me to know for sure if it's from the m4ohn but I'm going to assume that it is.

    I'm thinking about running this for a full 8 weeks followed by 3-4 weeks of PCT using Nolva. How does that sound to you guys?
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    that would probably work but, if you haven't gained anything by day 25 - i wouldn't extend the cycle...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deoudes59
    that would probably work but, if you haven't gained anything by day 25 - i wouldn't extend the cycle...
    The only reason I'm considering extending my cycle to 8 weeks is because I'm a classic hard-gainer. I should probably up my calories but I'm afraid that I'll get fat rather than lean out like I want to.
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    You say that you're not gaining much if anything, I think you're diet may require some looking into. You state that you are a hardgainer, if that's the case you very well may have a very active metabolism, and require a boatload of calories to grow. If you post your average daily diet up here, I'm sure we'd be more than happy to help you out to tweak it a bit to make your cycle more productive.

    I think you're the first person I've seen not obtain any results with m4ohn, and there must be a reason for that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by psywzrd
    The only reason I'm considering extending my cycle to 8 weeks is because I'm a classic hard-gainer. I should probably up my calories but I'm afraid that I'll get fat rather than lean out like I want to.

    We are in the same boat (hardgainer). But all that means is Eat More. It took me 4 years(?) to learn that. Having an active metabolism doesn't mean you don't respond to androgens. In fact, if you eat a ton of clean food, and let the metabolism do the rest - You'll see tremendous lean gains - maybe more gains than guys with a slower metabolism. Key is EAT EAT EAT. goodluck!
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    Quote Originally Posted by max silver
    You say that you're not gaining much if anything, I think you're diet may require some looking into. You state that you are a hardgainer, if that's the case you very well may have a very active metabolism, and require a boatload of calories to grow. If you post your average daily diet up here, I'm sure we'd be more than happy to help you out to tweak it a bit to make your cycle more productive.

    I think you're the first person I've seen not obtain any results with m4ohn, and there must be a reason for that.
    Ok - I'll bite. And I could definitely use the help so I appreciate the offer. Here's a typical day of eating for me:

    Meal 1: Whey protein shake with 1/3 of a banana and 1tbsp peanut butter:

    35g protein, 27g carbs, 10g fat

    Meal 2: Whey protein shake:

    25g protein, 5g carbs, 2g fat

    Meal 3: Salad with grilled chicken breast or a turkey or ham sandwich on whole wheat bread w/ 2 slices of American Cheese, lettuce and tomato.

    Not sure about the exact caloric breakdown here.

    Meal 4:

    Zone bar

    16g protein, 21g carbs, 7g fat

    Meal 5:

    2 chicken breast filets (usually grilled) with rice or potato or lean, ground beef (basically hamburgers) with vegetarian beans, or tuna steak with some sort of vegetable (zucchini, broccoli, etc.)

    Again, not sure of the exact caloric breakdown.

    Meal 6:

    Protein shake

    25g protein, 5g carbs, 3g fat

    I shoot for approximately 200g protein/day (starting weight on this cycle was around 155lbs). Also, keep in mind that I take 200mg R-ALA with meals 1, 3 and 5 since the bulk of my carbs come from those meals.

    Hope this helps. If you guys have any questions/suggestions/criticisms, I'm all ears and I have thick skin (a little too thick around my abs but I'm working on it). Thanks in advance for the help guys.
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    I have found that a real big morning shake helps me gain weight. I did a bulking cycle last summer and one this jan. In one I used a pre-made shake (ASTs MRP...uh oh I can feel the flames! but wait) and the other I used a homemade gainer of 1 scoop whey, 2 tbsps PB and 1/2 cup of oats. THe first bulk I put on maybe 3 lbs but the second I put on 15 or so. I did change up my PW nurition (added more carbs) but I feel that a big shake in the morning helps. This is especially true for me since I am not a big eater but I can drink shakes all day long. I would throw a whole banana in there for your meal 1.

    DoggCrap suggests in his articles that you add olive oil to your whey shakes. Search for cycles on the pennies. It is one of the better reads on the internet.

    I am a fan of milk, so if I was you I would add milk to meal 4. But I know some people dont like it or think that it has too much sugar.

    Another thing.. try not to weigh yourself too often. Your weight can fluxuate so much just do to water and food volume that it can be really discouraging when you drop weight.

    These things are all subject to arguement, but just what has worked for me (I am 6'1.5", 190 lbs...which is up from 150 2 years ago)

    Wether you take my advice or not, good luck and stay strong
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    I can see right away that you're not eating anywhere nearly enough for an effective mass cycle, I weigh about the same as you do right now, and I'm cutting naturally with a higher calorie intake than that.

    Here's some easy ways to add some extra calories. First off, your morning shake could really use some additional carbs, as you've been fasting all night, and your morning glucose sensitivity is very high as a result. Try grinding up some oats to throw into your shake, like one cups worth or so. Nice easy 60 grams of carbs right there.

    Same thing with meal number two, a whey shake on it's own isn't going to do much for you. Your body will likely just convert that whey to glucose and burn it off as fuel, not what you want. Either get yourself some carbs in there with it (more oats perhaps), or if that's not what you want throw some healthy fats in there instead. Natural peanut butter, flax oil or olive oil would all be good choices.

    Meal 3 seems to be in decent order, but that zone bar in meal 4 is nothing but a tiny snack. Get some decent calories in there, whether it's another protein/healthy fat shake, or protein and oats depends on when your daily workout falls in. If you've worked out early on in the day stick with the protein/fat combo, but if you're lifting at night keep the carbs coming, as you need fuel for your workouts.

    Meal 5 looks good, but your last meal of the day needs a little work. Once again that shake is just going to be burned off as energy. Before bed you want to get in some slower burning protein to increase nitrogen retention throughout the evening, as you're not going to be eating anything for 8-10 hours depending on how long you sleep, and this is one of your most anabolic periods of the day, if you feed yourself properly. If you can stand it, eat some cottage cheese before bed. What I like to do personally is mix some cottage cheese, chocolate whey, and natty peanut butter together. This comes out tasting like a homemade reeses peanut butter cup pudding of sorts, and tastes pretty damn good.

    I don't see any mention of it, but what does your postworkout nutrition consist of? There's been plenty of debates back and forth as to what type of carbs to use, whether fast of slow acting, but you need to have alot of either/both in this period to maximize anabolism. This is a very important meal, as you've just torn down your muscles, and you need the calories to repair them, and allow for new growth. Throw 2 scoops whey and some dextrose or ground oats in a shake, depending on which route you'd prefer to go.

    I just threw this together quickly, and it's pretty generalized, but it's a good place for you to start. If you're looking to maximize gains, you should be shooting for at least 3000 calories per day, perhaps even more depending on your metabolism. You say you're a hardgainer, but I can see straight off you're severely undereating. Learn to love food, tons of clean food is your best friend when trying to make good gains. Don't be too worried about gaining fat right now, you're in full swing in an androgen cycle, and if you keep things clean most of those calories will be utilized for new lean mass growth.
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    HOLY ****! dude your eating between 1300 and 1500 calories a day...I would shrink an unbelievable amount if that is all i ate. YOU NEEED TO UP YOUR CALORIES as stated above. I personally wouldnt give two ****s about gaining a few pounds of chub on an androgen cycle...I would also through a cheat meal a day in there just for ****s and giggles. Very good suggestions stated above but i would even go higher than 3000 calories i would go 4 or 5 thousand to gain weight. But hey to each his own.
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    I don't know if jumping to 4 or 5000 calories right off the bat is really the answer either though. If he's only ingesting 1500 calories a day, he's going to pack on fat like nobody's business with that massive a jump, no matter what he's on right now.
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    Guys - thanks a lot for your input! I really appreciate you taking the time out to look at my diet (or lack thereof) and give me suggestions. I had a feeling I was under-eating but until I took the time to actually write everything down, I wasn't sure. The weird thing about it is that I'm really not hungry during the day at all so it wasn't really obvious to me that I wasn't eating enough.

    There's no way in hell I could jam 4 or 5 thousand calories into my body without throwing up but I think I can get up to 3000 with some work. The cheat meal sounds pretty good to me too. It's going to take some work for me to figure out what works for me but I'm going to start adding in what you guys suggested and see what happens. Keep the suggestions coming!

    On another note, I think my m4ohn might have officially "kicked in" last night. I had a really tough time sleeping for the first time since I've been on it, and I've see some reports of sleeplessness while taking this stuff. Hopefully the gains will start to come now as I get my diet in order.
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    yeah man, I don't know anyone who can grow eatting less than 2500 calories...
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    Quote Originally Posted by max silver
    I don't see any mention of it, but what does your postworkout nutrition consist of? There's been plenty of debates back and forth as to what type of carbs to use, whether fast of slow acting, but you need to have alot of either/both in this period to maximize anabolism. This is a very important meal, as you've just torn down your muscles, and you need the calories to repair them, and allow for new growth. Throw 2 scoops whey and some dextrose or ground oats in a shake, depending on which route you'd prefer to go.
    Is there a good, complete post-workout shake available to buy in a powder that I can just bring to the gym with me and pound right after my workout?
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    I agree with whoever it was said about the bigger meal in the morning. I seemed to gain easier with a big breakfast.


    And as for your last question, what do you mean a complete shake? As in one that has high GI carbs and protein mixed in?

    I don't know of any like that. One thing I use to do (no flames!) was mix AST's vanilla whey (kind of expensive) with fruit punch cell-tech. Tasted good, but was pretty expensive for pwo.

    This was a while ago, before I knew as much (relatively to me) as I do now about pwo nutrition.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan Drago

    And as for your last question, what do you mean a complete shake? As in one that has high GI carbs and protein mixed in?
    Yes - that's exactly what I meant. max silver mentioned whey with some dextrose or oats for post-workout. Is there a powder available that has the whey and the dextrose in it or do I need to buy the dextrose somewhere separately?
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    Quote Originally Posted by psywzrd
    Yes - that's exactly what I meant. max silver mentioned whey with some dextrose or oats for post-workout. Is there a powder available that has the whey and the dextrose in it or do I need to buy the dextrose somewhere separately?
    all of the above...you could go with buying your own dextrose, mix in in a whey...add some powder creatine (if you want), buy a weight gainer (High calories, protien and carbs), or spend some bucks on a dextrose+creatine mix, add some whey.Adding low fat milk to you protien shakes is a good way to add extra calories, carbs and protien too.Blending in some oats to any shake is good too.Did I mention peanut butter...flax oil?
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    How much dextrose would you add to a shake? Is there a specific ratio you're looking for or do you just need a specific amount of dextrose? For example, if my protein powder is 23g/scoop, how much dextrose should I add? And is there a specific type/brand of dextrose I should be looking for or is it all basically the same?
  

  
 

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