DoctorViking
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I am going to float an argument out there, and lets see where it goes.
First of all, I wish Jamie and CO would discuss the APD more, as it really is a cornerstone of C&P. For reference if you are new to the blog: ChAoS & PAIN: The Apex Predator Diet, In Glorious Detail Part 1
Anyways, I think an unmentioned cornerstone of the APD is Gluconeogenisis. And, that this is a good thing as it is highly thermic, muscle sparing, and most of the metabolic benifits from keto diets come not for the ketones themselves, but from the high ammounts of protein and saturated fats.
Here, I would like to quote "The Verb" in this thread: ChAoS & PAIN: Keto Diets- Why They Work, How To Make Them Work For You, Why Vince Gironda Made a Song About Them... And I Finally Use Decllenium In A Sentence
"Gluconeogenesis is not gonna throw you out of fat burning.
Your RBCs and 1/3 of your brain is always going to require glucose or your RBCs will lyse and your kidneys will fill with hemoglobin and fail, meanwhile your neurons will swell and rupture as you stroke out and you're basically ****ed. To keep this crap from happening you have gluconeogenesis. Its always gonna be happening. You know all that lactate you made busting ass? it gets made back into glucose through gluconeogenesis too. Because lactic acidosis and coagulative necrosis is bad.
Now if you eat a surplus of protein what will happen? Your liver, is pretty happy eating up excess proteins to derive energy. It will deaminate or transaminate the amino group from the amino acids to make a carbon skeleton it can burn for energy in the TCA. But keep in mind that this is for a fraction of the amino acids you intake. And this is going on anytime you eat, regardless of your diet.
You may spike insulin, but that would drive whatever glucose you have in you into the muscles, adipocytes and anything with a glut4 transporter, which would lead to a state of hypoglycemia, and retrigger fat burning and the production of glucose, (if you are not on a carb based diet. in the case of carb based diet glycogenolysis will be triggered instead of fat burning)
Now when the liver provides glucose to the body (one of its prime functions), the first place to look is the liver glycogen. If you're ketoing you prolly don't have much, unless you've refed. In which case your body is going to burn this off before it touches your fat (not entirely true, but fat burning will be kinda minor).
As liver glycogen (not muscle glycogen, muscle glycogen is UNAVAILABLE to the rest of the body) levels get lower, gluconeogenesis starts to play a bigger role in how your body provides sugar to the dependant tissues. Gluconeogenesis requires fat to power it. This fat comes from your adipocytes. Fat comes into your liver and gets burned off to make energy and acetyl coa to make pyruvate into oxaloacetate and go through gluconeogenesis to make glucose. It does not turn the acetyl coa into sugar, it REQUIRES an amino acid or a lactate, or a glycerol to make pyruvate, and this pyruvate can be used to make glucose (this is why you had better eat some god damn protein on a keto diet because you body will start to look elsewhere otherwise. This is also why when people try to lose weight by simple calorie reduction or overt calorie reduction they look like shrunken **** versions of their previous selves with the same body composition, as your body is looking to burn fat AND protein and will ****ing SCAVENGE for both. This is also the basis of the miracle of the protein-sparing modified fast, although I have yet to understand why people consume retardedly low calories in a lyle macdonald worshipping self flagellating manner. Also the PSMF is a good way to hormonally rip your balls off and throw a month long hissy fit, maxing sub par weights).
Now as gluconeogenesis is going on your liver gets flooded with acetyl coa. The liver basically begins to fuse acetyl coas to make ketones and puts them out into the blood to supply tissues which will burn them. Now early on you are not going to register on keto sticks, because your rate of ketogenesis is relatively low and your muscles and heart are stuffing there faces with it but your brain is not yet ready for it. About two weeks later, the amount of ketones produced will be so high that your heart and muscles won't be able to eat all of it and your brain can get to it and get 2/3 of its energy from it, the excess gets pee'd out. (does anyone ever notice that their sticks go purple and then eventually move back to pinkish? thats the point where your brain is beginning to burn ketones for fuel)
Gluconeogenesis is always going on. Having a high protein meal may put you out of ketosis temporarily, but at that time your body will be burning off excess aminos and still burning fat to make glucose. The sticks might not register but you're still burning fat.
YouTube
I have never felt that ketosis is essential. Ketones are always produced when fat is burned, the difference between ketosis and non-ketosis is simply producing more ketones than your heart and muscles can clear from the blood, leading to it being excreted in urine. A slight advantage of ketosis is the amount of protein converted to produce glucose decreases in ketosis as the brain begins to utilise ketones (therefore you burn a bit more fat too), but this can simply be surmounted by an increased protein intake. Regardless of ketosis or not, you will be burning fat and by providing enough protein to your body you will not suffer significant effects of catabolism. If you are consuming less calories than you expend this fat will be taken from your stores.
Anytime you are eating carbs you will trigger insulin which stops the fat burning show and shifts to storage mode in the form of quickly accessable glycogen and then space saving fat (glycogen is an osmotic burden for you organs, its many branching glucose fibers are polar and hydrate with H20 leading to a low density of energy, fat is non-polar and therefore does not hydrate and takes up less space in tissues, thats why the body makes it).
If you work out and then eat carbs you are in a situation where preferential blood flow is to your muscles instead of fat cells, this is the basis of keifer's diets saying eat carbs after working out. Carbs can therefore be used advantageously to keep your muscle glycogen levels topped. Some liver glycogen will form, but the insulin induced transporters for glucose in the muscles is far better than the liver transporters so it is unlikely that significant liver glycogen will be produced if decent sense in the amount of carbs eaten is taken. Once liver glycogen is burned off fat-burning and gluconeogenesis will continue.
As you can see from this writeup, the intake of protein (PSMF) during the day will provide protein to run gluconeogenesis, and being in a low carb state for the majority of the day will keep you in fat utilization mode. Ketosis provides modest benefits in my opinion, but for those wishing for every possible way to burn fat it can be used to benefit.
Intake of carbs can be done after exercise in modest amounts in one meal to replace muscle glycogen (like TKD) or once a week in a larger meal after exercise to allow for greater psycological compliance and possible hormonal benefits (of which I have to admit I have not fully read about in my experience, but does make sound logical sense).
All this goes to say that the APD is quite biochemically sound in my opinion, and does a very good job of blending the various principles that make an effective diet."
If you understood even half of that, you understood that the amount of energy it takes to convert protein into glucose is crazy high and will end up burning a crazy amount of fat while maintaining lean mass.
My brother is type 1 Diabetic, and so I have access to a blood ketone meter and cheap strips. I am almost never in ketosis (>3MM) unless I cut back on the protein, but who wants to do that?
Ketones do provide some benifits, specifically to the brain. But one could actually be in ketosis and gluconeogenisis at the same time by just eating some coconut oil twice a day.
and
I really havent heard of anyone eating over 50% protein and testing as positive for ketosis, but perhaps I am wrong in that.
So what do you guys think? Is the APD really keto? does it need to be? Have you yourself tested your ketone levels while on the APD? (pee strips are pretty useless)
PS:
Gluconeogenisis could actually help your muscles stay saturated with glycogyn in between rampages, making the benefits of a rampage mainly about resetting your metabolism... and about not going crazy eating the same thing all the time.
First of all, I wish Jamie and CO would discuss the APD more, as it really is a cornerstone of C&P. For reference if you are new to the blog: ChAoS & PAIN: The Apex Predator Diet, In Glorious Detail Part 1
Anyways, I think an unmentioned cornerstone of the APD is Gluconeogenisis. And, that this is a good thing as it is highly thermic, muscle sparing, and most of the metabolic benifits from keto diets come not for the ketones themselves, but from the high ammounts of protein and saturated fats.
Here, I would like to quote "The Verb" in this thread: ChAoS & PAIN: Keto Diets- Why They Work, How To Make Them Work For You, Why Vince Gironda Made a Song About Them... And I Finally Use Decllenium In A Sentence
"Gluconeogenesis is not gonna throw you out of fat burning.
Your RBCs and 1/3 of your brain is always going to require glucose or your RBCs will lyse and your kidneys will fill with hemoglobin and fail, meanwhile your neurons will swell and rupture as you stroke out and you're basically ****ed. To keep this crap from happening you have gluconeogenesis. Its always gonna be happening. You know all that lactate you made busting ass? it gets made back into glucose through gluconeogenesis too. Because lactic acidosis and coagulative necrosis is bad.
Now if you eat a surplus of protein what will happen? Your liver, is pretty happy eating up excess proteins to derive energy. It will deaminate or transaminate the amino group from the amino acids to make a carbon skeleton it can burn for energy in the TCA. But keep in mind that this is for a fraction of the amino acids you intake. And this is going on anytime you eat, regardless of your diet.
You may spike insulin, but that would drive whatever glucose you have in you into the muscles, adipocytes and anything with a glut4 transporter, which would lead to a state of hypoglycemia, and retrigger fat burning and the production of glucose, (if you are not on a carb based diet. in the case of carb based diet glycogenolysis will be triggered instead of fat burning)
Now when the liver provides glucose to the body (one of its prime functions), the first place to look is the liver glycogen. If you're ketoing you prolly don't have much, unless you've refed. In which case your body is going to burn this off before it touches your fat (not entirely true, but fat burning will be kinda minor).
As liver glycogen (not muscle glycogen, muscle glycogen is UNAVAILABLE to the rest of the body) levels get lower, gluconeogenesis starts to play a bigger role in how your body provides sugar to the dependant tissues. Gluconeogenesis requires fat to power it. This fat comes from your adipocytes. Fat comes into your liver and gets burned off to make energy and acetyl coa to make pyruvate into oxaloacetate and go through gluconeogenesis to make glucose. It does not turn the acetyl coa into sugar, it REQUIRES an amino acid or a lactate, or a glycerol to make pyruvate, and this pyruvate can be used to make glucose (this is why you had better eat some god damn protein on a keto diet because you body will start to look elsewhere otherwise. This is also why when people try to lose weight by simple calorie reduction or overt calorie reduction they look like shrunken **** versions of their previous selves with the same body composition, as your body is looking to burn fat AND protein and will ****ing SCAVENGE for both. This is also the basis of the miracle of the protein-sparing modified fast, although I have yet to understand why people consume retardedly low calories in a lyle macdonald worshipping self flagellating manner. Also the PSMF is a good way to hormonally rip your balls off and throw a month long hissy fit, maxing sub par weights).
Now as gluconeogenesis is going on your liver gets flooded with acetyl coa. The liver basically begins to fuse acetyl coas to make ketones and puts them out into the blood to supply tissues which will burn them. Now early on you are not going to register on keto sticks, because your rate of ketogenesis is relatively low and your muscles and heart are stuffing there faces with it but your brain is not yet ready for it. About two weeks later, the amount of ketones produced will be so high that your heart and muscles won't be able to eat all of it and your brain can get to it and get 2/3 of its energy from it, the excess gets pee'd out. (does anyone ever notice that their sticks go purple and then eventually move back to pinkish? thats the point where your brain is beginning to burn ketones for fuel)
Gluconeogenesis is always going on. Having a high protein meal may put you out of ketosis temporarily, but at that time your body will be burning off excess aminos and still burning fat to make glucose. The sticks might not register but you're still burning fat.
YouTube
I have never felt that ketosis is essential. Ketones are always produced when fat is burned, the difference between ketosis and non-ketosis is simply producing more ketones than your heart and muscles can clear from the blood, leading to it being excreted in urine. A slight advantage of ketosis is the amount of protein converted to produce glucose decreases in ketosis as the brain begins to utilise ketones (therefore you burn a bit more fat too), but this can simply be surmounted by an increased protein intake. Regardless of ketosis or not, you will be burning fat and by providing enough protein to your body you will not suffer significant effects of catabolism. If you are consuming less calories than you expend this fat will be taken from your stores.
Anytime you are eating carbs you will trigger insulin which stops the fat burning show and shifts to storage mode in the form of quickly accessable glycogen and then space saving fat (glycogen is an osmotic burden for you organs, its many branching glucose fibers are polar and hydrate with H20 leading to a low density of energy, fat is non-polar and therefore does not hydrate and takes up less space in tissues, thats why the body makes it).
If you work out and then eat carbs you are in a situation where preferential blood flow is to your muscles instead of fat cells, this is the basis of keifer's diets saying eat carbs after working out. Carbs can therefore be used advantageously to keep your muscle glycogen levels topped. Some liver glycogen will form, but the insulin induced transporters for glucose in the muscles is far better than the liver transporters so it is unlikely that significant liver glycogen will be produced if decent sense in the amount of carbs eaten is taken. Once liver glycogen is burned off fat-burning and gluconeogenesis will continue.
As you can see from this writeup, the intake of protein (PSMF) during the day will provide protein to run gluconeogenesis, and being in a low carb state for the majority of the day will keep you in fat utilization mode. Ketosis provides modest benefits in my opinion, but for those wishing for every possible way to burn fat it can be used to benefit.
Intake of carbs can be done after exercise in modest amounts in one meal to replace muscle glycogen (like TKD) or once a week in a larger meal after exercise to allow for greater psycological compliance and possible hormonal benefits (of which I have to admit I have not fully read about in my experience, but does make sound logical sense).
All this goes to say that the APD is quite biochemically sound in my opinion, and does a very good job of blending the various principles that make an effective diet."
If you understood even half of that, you understood that the amount of energy it takes to convert protein into glucose is crazy high and will end up burning a crazy amount of fat while maintaining lean mass.
My brother is type 1 Diabetic, and so I have access to a blood ketone meter and cheap strips. I am almost never in ketosis (>3MM) unless I cut back on the protein, but who wants to do that?
Ketones do provide some benifits, specifically to the brain. But one could actually be in ketosis and gluconeogenisis at the same time by just eating some coconut oil twice a day.
and
I really havent heard of anyone eating over 50% protein and testing as positive for ketosis, but perhaps I am wrong in that.
So what do you guys think? Is the APD really keto? does it need to be? Have you yourself tested your ketone levels while on the APD? (pee strips are pretty useless)
PS:
Gluconeogenisis could actually help your muscles stay saturated with glycogyn in between rampages, making the benefits of a rampage mainly about resetting your metabolism... and about not going crazy eating the same thing all the time.
