[JKurz1]

Thanks bro - tried this last night......maybe I need to up it more?

3pm 1/2 cup oats, 1 scoop whey, coffee, skim

finish training at 6:15
pw shake - 1 scoop celltech carb sense, two rice cakes, 2 scoops whey

8:30 2 scoops casein, egg whites and skim - 5 peanuts 5-10 almonds all in shake........

not enough eh? would you put oats in your prebed shake evben if it's minutes before bed?

[UnicronSpawn]

well what I meant was that INSTEAD of a pw shake you could have it mid workout (5:30) then squeeze an additional solid meal (protien/carb) a bout 6:45 or so (before your bed time shake) that way you wouldnt have to have so many carbs in your bedtime shake, cuz you would allready had 2 helpings (one during wkout, and one a half hour or so later.) and then the casien shake could fall about 8:45 or 9. The mid wkout shake is all fast digesting stuff, so you should be able to tolerate a solid meal an hour to an hour and a half later, and a casien shake another 2-2 1/2 hrs after the sold meal. The portion sizes can only really be exactified through trial and error, and discovering how your body handles those portions. Youd eventually adapt to that frequency of feedings, but the portions will determine wheather you gain/loose/maintain fat or muscle. Im still experimenting and finding out what portions of different macronutrients at what times do what for me too, so Im in a similar boat. (except Im allowed to stay up later and get up later, so the fact I train from 8-10pm is not a big issue for me.) So if you like my idea, great, try it out. But just remember that through trial and error you can learn more about what does what for you in terms of portions, times of day and macronutrient ratio's then any nutritionist could know (without spending time and effort anaylzing you and personalizing their reccomendations to you.) So good luck, I hope I could at least get some good ideas floating in your head..... Later bro.....(Mattris)

[JKurz1]

thnx bro..will you show me you outline? training and meal timing...

[moflika]

This seems like a good thread to aske this question:

To all you people who drink BCAA/EAA drinks during your workout: Is it more beneficial to drink during your workout instead of right before?

I have some Scivation Xtend coming soon and I was going to take 1 scoop right before and right after the workout. I'm studying in Germany right now so getting this stuff (or any supps.) is a major PITA, so I want to make this stuff last. Just taking it once during my workout would make it last longer, so if thats better, then thats cool.

[UnicronSpawn]

Originally Posted by JKurz1

thnx bro..will you show me you outline? training and meal timing...

Sorry I took so long to get back to U, My email didnt register a new response on this thread.
Well, your really have to customize "basic guidlines" to what is possible with your personal schedule. If 5:00 pm is the most realistic time of day for you train then so be it. The best time to train IMO, is the time of day your able to consistently hit it without missing workouts because of trying to train at a time that is unrealistic considering your life obligations. But the basic guidlines for mass eating are to eat a hi protien meal every 2-3 hrs all day, and only substituting shakes if: A) its your wkout or post wkout shake. B) before bed. or C)when you absolutely cant make time for a solid meal, and your using that shake to buy you another 2-3hrs.
Total protien should be minimum of 1gram per lb of bodyweight, and up to as high as 2grams per lb of BW. Carbs and fats depend mostly on personal metabolic rate, and total activity. If your ectomorphic in nature, (very high metabolic rate and/or very active.) then as much as 3g's of carbs per lb of BW may be neccesary to fuel your needs. And fat could fall between 1/2g per lb and 3/4g per lb. If your body has insufficient carbs it will waste some of your protien you ate by turning it into glucose, and it may also turn some of your fat into ketones for energy, but thats not something to worry about. If your more endomorphic (gains both good and bad weight very easily and very quickly.)Then you might have to keep your carbs as low as 100g's or less. (or 1/2G per lb of BW.) and fat down to as little as 50-100gs per day, or 1/2g per lb of BW.(the excteption is vegatables, wich you have unlimited free reign on, and should be the choice when your not feeling satisfied with your meal portions.) If your meso-morphic, you dont need my help! LOL. But if your like MOST of us, your somewhere inbetween, and you must experiment by starting with somewhere in the middle of those guidelines, and increasing or decreasing in small increments based on what the first few days seems to be doing to your body. If your gaining a lb of BW or more a day then your probably gaining fat and not just muscle, so decrease the fats or carbs, (make sure that its not the TYPE of carbs thats responsible, before cutting carbs.) Now tally up the totals for your "starting reference point", and devide that by how many meals you think you can fit in your day with the every 2-3 hrs guideling. This will tell you the AVERAGE amount of each macronutrient to shoot for in each meal. Here is a hypothetical example, since I dont know the play by play on your daily schedule and metabolic rate and activity level outside of lifting.:

Lets say our friend Johhny Juice-Face, (we'll know him affectionately as JJF.) Gets up at 6:00 am and has meal #1 wich is slightly larger than some of his meals and he's sure to include some slow burning carbs, cuz he knows he needs energy throughout the day. He then packs his cooler with food he can reheat in the micro at work, and/or cold foods as well as one or two shakes, some fruit, and nuts, maybe some beef jerky for emergencies. Our man JJF showers and shows up for work at 8:00am, and clock's in. Knowing that he doesnt have a break until lunch at noon, and knowing it would make him look bad if he obtrusively snuck off to eat a whole meal so early in the work day, he times it so that all he has to do is make it look like he's using the restroom at 9am, and sneak his shake with him, and chug it in like 10 seconds before the boss comes by and see's he's not working (meal #2). Then he puts some nuts, or some beef jerky where he can grab a piece every so often and he "grazes" for the next 45 min's or so, giving him a slow constant influx of energy and protien. (Not as ideal as a solid meal every 2 hours but effective none the less.) Then finally noon comes around, and he siezes this oppurtunity to eat one of his allready prepared meals from the cooler, having plenty of time to fix it up, or re-heat it or whatever(meal #3). That holds him over till his one and only 10 minute break at 10 til 3, and at this time he eats the fastest of his prepared meals, knowing he doesnt have a lot of time to eat it (thats meal#4). He gets off work at 4, or a little after 4, at wich time he consumes either a pre- workout shake, or a small solid meal with protien and slow burning carbs. He has just over an hour to digest this before he trains at 5:30pm (thats meal 5). Today he's doing delts and tri's so he opted for the small solid meal pre workout. (if it had been leg day, he might have preffered a shake.) So he begins his wkout around 5:30ish, and finishes delts at about 5:55-6:10ish and has his MIDWKOUT SHAKE wich is meal #6 (possibly w/ some fruit and maybe some nuts if he chooses.) Then moves on to triceps, finishing at about 6:30-6:40. He then gets gas or picks something up from the store or whatever he's got to do, but tries to get home by 7:15ish for his final whole food meal of the day (meal 7), including some carbs even though its late for him, because he knows that he just trained and its only bad to eat carbs WHEN HE WONT USE THE ENERGY. As opposed to some rigid time of day rule that doesnt take into account his personal energy requirements. Then roughly 2 hrs later, he has his bedtime shake, with little to no carbs..... and hits the hay around 9:30pm, falling asleep hopefully by 10:00 to allow for 8 hours of sleep.

Now our boy JJF, is eating a whopping 8 meals a day! even with his busy schedule. Now if 8 is just to hard then try to get in at least 5, and trying to time it so you never have to go more than 3hrs without protien.

JJF is not a pure ecto,meso or endo. He weighs 200lbs, and is relatively lean.
Lets design a starting point for our friend Johnny.
We'll start him at 1.5gs of protien/lb, and guess at about 2gs/lb for carbs because he has trouble putting on weight, but is not an extreme ectomorph as he can get fat if he over does it, but not as easily as some of his endomorphic friends. W'ell start him off at 1/2g per lb for fat intake, focusing mostly on essential fats like omega 3's and 6's, and 9's. A little saturated fat is ok but dont get carried away. And completely avoid useless trans fats if possible. So that calculates to 300g's of protien per day to start, 400g's of carbs, and 100g's of fats.
Protien and carbs each contain 4 calories per gram, and fats contain 9 calories per gram, so we have 1,200 cals from protien, 1,600 cals from carbs, and 900 cals from fats. Thats 3,700 cals per day.
The next step is to take those starting refference #'s and devide them by the # of meals per day wich in JJF's case is 8.
He should strive for 37.5g,s average per meal, with 50g,s carbs and 12.5g,s of fat. (If he only ate 5 meals a day it would be 60g;s pro, 80g,s carbs, and 20g's of fat per meal.) He knows he probalby will seldom actually nail this figure on the head at any given meal, but will eat slightly above it on some meals and slightly below it on other.
After a week on this regimen, he decides he's not gaining, so he bumps his protien to 2g's per lb. wich bumps his calories up to 4'100 and he begins to see results. If he had seen fat gain, then the thing to to would be to drop the carbs from 2gs per lb to 1.5 per lb. until he finds the custom formula for him. If his body weight changes, he will have to re-calculate his target totals, with his new weight. If he changes jobs, and can only manage 5 meals instead of 8, he devides his target totals, by however many meals he's going to have per day. If the new job is more physically active than th last, he bumps up energy intake slightly to match, until he finds a ration that yields steady gains without excessive bodyfat accumulation.

There....as you can see I've outlined a simple, practical, easy to follow guideline to use as a refference point to get started with and modify as needed to find the perfect balance for you. Cuz you, me, and our friend Johhny Juice-face, are all different. We have different genetic traits, activity levels, and specific life obligations. Just make the best out of any situation you have to work with and you will be rewarded. (as far as specific food type repitoire goes.... read, and ask around, cuz Im tired from typing so much! LOL! I hope this helps, and good luck with everything, I hope everything goes well for you........(UnicronSpawn)

[JKurz1]

hmm....i gotta disagree......eating something mid workout can be nothing but detremental.....why rush all the blood to your stomach for digestion....trust me bro, you train hard and heavy, the last thing youll be thinking about is nuts and fruit....lol...come on...

[UnicronSpawn]

I dont eat nuts and fruit, w shakes. I thought I remember U saying thats what u like to do, so I tried to incorporate it. This whole thread is about mid-wkout shakes, so apparently alot of people here believe that at least when a shake only (no solids) is involved, that the blood to the stomach during training is not significant, and/or that optimal macro-nutrient intake for the wkout and for the day if nothing else superscede it in importance. You see, you should have a sort of hiarchy of ideal's with your nutriton. At the top of the list should be total protien intake, and timing, and then next might be the ideal total # of meals per day. when whatever circumstances come up, make one ideal immpossible, then you compromise one of the ideals that falls lower in the hiarchy of priorities, to achieve the most important wich are at the top. You can get all kinds of advice, or ideas from people or books, but the trick is learning to make modifications on these ideas to customize them for what works best for YOU. For instance, I barf if I train legs to soon after a meal, so I modified my nutrition for those days, to fit my own body. The only way to get some one to make a detailed log with every step, and every exact food and portion together for you is for someone to know everything there is to know about your daily life routine, and your metabolic idiosyncracies. That's why most people take the basic guidlines and shape it to fit them. Unless your like hollywood movie star rich, in wich case those people sometimes pay nutritonalists and trainers rediculous ammounts of money to take care of every single last detail so they dont have to think about anything. They just do what their told. Thats because of the immense detail a nutritionalist must know about the client to design the perfect diet for them.
The post above was intended to be a starting point, not to be taken literally meal by meal, portion by portion. Just start somewhere quantifiable, and start making adjustments till you find a working formula, and always stay open minded, because new studies come out all the time that contradict some detail we previously thought, or add to it, or explain the reason behind it or whatever. Im just trying to be helpful because Im a nice guy, but if you dont like some aspect of my advice..... CHANGE IT! Its not law, its not written in stone so CHANGE IT. My intention was to get you to learn how to make customizations YOURSELF, wich IMO is much more valuble than having someone map out direct coordinates and have you not learn anything in the process. But if you have a quantifiable starting point, and modify systematically, you can learn alot about what works with you, both in lifestyle practicallity, and in bodily response. So get to it and good luck.

[Xel]

John Berardi on Pre/Mid-Workout drinks and blood flow.

Increased muscle blood flow - While some theorize that the digestion of this drink will draw blood away from the muscle and toward the gastrointestinal tract, this couldn't be further from the truth. Since the recommended drink is so easily digested and the stimulus to send blood to the muscle is so strong, blood flow to the muscle will actually increase with such a drink.
At rest, blood flow to the muscle is quite low. However, during exercise muscle blood flow increases by almost 150%. When a carbohydrate and amino acid drink is taken pre/during the workout, the blood flow during the workout increases by about 350%. This is a very powerful effect since there's significantly more blood going to the muscle and this blood is packed with anabolic nutrients!

[UnicronSpawn]

Nice.

[JKurz1]

so what is the conclusion? Drink a carb bev. like gatorade during and then simple+ protein post?

[Xel]

Originally Posted by JKurz1

so what is the conclusion? Drink a carb bev. like gatorade during and then simple+ protein post?

Here's his complete article on the subject: http://www.johnberardi.com/articles/.../precision.htm

Or in short:

Here's a sample calculation of what a 220lb (100kg) person would need:

Pre/During Exercise

40g-80g of carbohydrate (50% glucose - 50% maltodextrin)
20g-40g of hydrolyzed protein
3-5g each of creatine, glutamine, BCAA
2L water (80g CHO + 40g PRO + 5g Creatine +5g Glutamine +5g BCAA = 135g of nutrients. In 1L of water this would be a 13.5% solution and too concentrated. In 2L of water this is about 6.75% and the concentration is just right).

Post Exercise

40g-80g of carbohydrate (50%glucose-50%maltodextrin)
20g-40g of hydrolyzed protein
3-5g creatine each of glutamine, BCAA
1L - 2L water
500mg vitamin C, 400IU vitamin E

[JKurz1]

So according to John, you are crazy not to take say, whey and gatorade during and then again post.......just seems like a lot to me...have you guys tried it?

[JKurz1]

I think JB is full of himself...........look how he plugs his supplements.....joke.

[BPB]

I have been following JB's recommendations for mid/post workout nutrition and I have found it to be helpful. One thing though is i now workout for 90 min give or take and its helped with that. When i was working out 60min give or take i honestly didnt notice much other than rushing two shakes back to back and not feeling to hot after it.

[bodebldr2000]

big d64, man you are huge! you look great man. From Kansas huh? I lived in KCMO for 10years but now live in South Carolina. What types of exercises do you do for your back? amazing thickness.

[Ronin13]

What do you guys think of Poweraid vs. Gatorade? Also, has anyone tried Accelerade? Finally, is there a particular favorite EAA product that