Which is the better post-workout shake?
- 09-16-2005, 06:43 PM
Which is the better post-workout shake?
Option Number One:
2 Scoops Whey Protein
2 Cups White Grape or Other Fruit Juice
2 Scoops Whey Protein
2 Cups Milk
1 Cup Blended Oates??
I have been using option 2 for quite awhile, but after reading around quite a bit I notice alot of people go with option one. Which option do you or would you go with, or list something else, and why?
- 09-16-2005, 06:47 PM
Im not sure, which is 'better', but my post-workout shake consists of...
1 1/2 cups skim milk
1 cup oats
1 whole banana
2 scoops whey
Here is a link to an article written by Alan Aragon regarding pre, during, and postworkout nutrition.
the objective here is to raise insulin concentrations & get a head start on recovery by antagonizing cortisol & other catabolic elements, replenish water & glygogen, and restore levels of circulating amino acids. this is mistakenly viewed as the most important meal of the day, which is BS. why? because if you're not properly fueled prior to this point, your workout will suck. thus, it's equally important in the large scheme of things.
i'm not biased towards a shake-only postworkout philosophy, as long as either type contains a liquid component. 2 equally effective scenarios are:
scenario one: as soon as possible postworkout - or even at the tail end of the workout, say, 10-20 minutes before it's over. i start chugging my postworkout shake 60 minutes into my workout, regardless of how long my workout takes.
---- 30-60g protein (0.25g/lb target BW). whey again is pretty cheap & works great here. research shows that postworkout protein doesn't inhibit glycogen synthesis, and can improve protein synthesis. this means that you can hedge your anabolic & anticatabolic bets by taking in a sizable amount of protein postworkout. whey happens to be a highly insulinogenic protein, so this is ideal at this point.
---- 60-120g of high-GI carbs (0.5g/lb target BW), or a combination of types that ultimately averages to a high-GI rating (70 or above). dextrose & maltodextrin have traditionally been emphasized as ideal for postworkout because of their high-GI. however, i have issues with going pure dex for postworkout for a couple of reasons - and they have nothing to do with the threat of insulin resistance, because that whole scenario applies to a completely different population. first off, you can get some default dex within fruit or milk. secondly, pure dex has no micronutrient density, and i've said it before, antioxidant micronutrition is grossly under-emphasized whenever postworkout nutrition is discussed. dex is a fine addition to your postworkout carb arsenal, but to go pure dex for the largest carb hit of your day doesn't make sense from a micronutrient density standpoint - especially when dex is contained in other foods that are more nutrient dense and are still either high-GI or highly insulinemic.
thinly rolled non-prepacketed oats (which many don't realize have a GI of appx 65-75 as opposed to the low-GI the steel-cut or old-fashioned type) plus dex is achieving the best of both worlds, but that's theoretical ground. NOTE: old fashioned/slow-cooked oats + dex in a 1:1 still yields a GI that crosses the threshold of high. adding fruit to your postworkout mix of carbs can potentially benefit folks who train with a high volume & do a lot of cardio (ie, precontest). the protection of liver glycogen status under such conditions can maintain the centrally neurologic signaling of the "fed state" and hence prevent lean tissue catabolism -- especially during hypocaloric balance.
okay, so to be practical, simple examples are: 1/2-1 cup dry oats + 30-50g dex (OR) 1/2 cup dry oats + 40g dex + 1 banana. these are just 2 examples out of many possibilities. i see nothing wrong with using high-moderate to high-GI carbs other than dex/malto, as long as the average GI of the combo is near or greater than 70. nitpicky theoretics aside, anything 65 or above on the GI scale (like the thinly rolled plain oats which people mistakenly think is in the low GI category) will likely have very similar real-world effectiveness as higher-GI choices. but remember, this is a discussion of optima, thus, we are scrutinizing the minutia and elucidating what might provide the edge.
---- as little fat as possible is best postworkout, because you don't want to blunt insulin output at this point.
---- milk considerations: whether or not you add milk to your postworkout shake depends upon personal preference and tolerance. the cons of milk are that many folks have some degree of lactose intolerance or milk allergy, and therefore are excluded from the possibility. the pros of milk postworkout are that it's highly insulinogenic, contains 6g dex per cup, and is a potent anabolic/anticatabolic substance that has outperformed whey in human research thus far.
scenario two: ASAP postworkout - a solid-food meal consisting of:
---- 30-60g protein (0.25g/lb target BW) in the form of lean flesh, all types are fine, 5-8oz suffices.
---- 60-120g high-moderate to high-GI polysaccharide carbs (0.5g/lb target BW), good examples are white or brown rice (yes most brown rice is high-GI), and all types of potatoes & breads. my bias and preference here is to include a serving of higher-glucose fresh fruit, such as grapes, banana, or pineapple - for micronutrient/antioxidant purposes as well as extra glucose (we should all know by now that the fructose contribution of fruit, at 4-7g on average per serving, is insignificant). another wrinkle to add here is that berries as a group have more antioxidant potential than other fruits. this confers benefit despite their lower concentration of glucose compared to grapes, pineapples, & bananas. so, don't worry if you choose other fruit than the higher-glucose ones postworkout; you're still winning out in the antioxidant arena.
---- water or milk, pick your poison.. a word about fruit juice: while i am not against small amounts of fructose from whole fruit for maintaining/replenishing liver glycogen, fruit juice on the other hand tends to cross the line of excess in terms of fructose, and you miss out on much of the beneficial phytochemicals & oxygen radical suppressors in whole fruit.
---- once again, keep fat to a minimum.
now.. can you exceed 120g carbs or 60g protein postworkout? of course! your training program, body mass, & physiology may actually scream for it. this is merely a point of reference for the masses to digest, absorb, & process accordingly (gotta love corny nutrition puns). for the few competitive endurance athletes who might read this, consider the rather whopping 1.0g/lb a starting point for your postworkout carb intake. protein need is sufficiently met with the standard guideline of 0.25g/lb.
a word about high or low-GI postworkout.. this is a topic that has sparked debate mainly from a finding by jentjens & colleagues showing the biphasic nature of glycogenesis (30-60min insulin-independent initial phase, followed by an insulin-dependent phase lasting several hours). this has led some sugarphobic folks to strive for low-GI foods postworkout thinking that high insulin concentrations aren't necessary for maximal glycogen replenishment. well, the fact remains that although heightened insulin concentrations don't ultimately increase the total AMOUNT of glycogen replenishment, they definitely increase the SPEED of glycogen replenishment. this is of obvious benefit when the unavoidable overlap of muscular work (and hence need for rapid replenishment) is considered. another thing that's overlooked by low-GI PW advocates (jeez, that's so ridiculous i can't believe i just typed it), is that the 30-60 minute non-insulin-dependent phase is an ideal timeframe to absorb high-GI carbs immediately ingested postworkout and have them present & ready to coincide with the insulin-depended phase of glycogenesis - where the majority of total glycogenesis takes place. as an added bit of trivia, high-GI carbs are sooooo darn good at replenishing glycogen, that even a delay of 2hrs was not observed by parkin's research team to compromise total amount of glycogen replenishment (by the way, this is not recommended, i'm just driving a point). hopefully everyone realizes the importance of manipulating insulin for all aspects of anabolism & anticatabolism. there's much much more to this facet of discussion, but we'll leave it at that.
09-17-2005, 04:45 AM
Where is D.T. to go over this much debated topic? I have never heard of brown rice being high on the GI. When I read something I would like to have studies showing why the author is telling me this... and not just pulling it out of his ass... Because brown rice being high on the GI is new to me... http://www.carbs-information.com/gly...brown-rice.htm
Study showing that GI of CHO ingested PWO does not matter... More PWO Low-GI Proof- New research!
Good recent thread --- After workout shake... - If you read that a couple times to make sure it sinks in... you can spread the word for others... honestly.. that thread says it all and more, especially the recent addition by Bobo on the 15th.
09-17-2005, 04:47 AM
09-17-2005, 05:16 AM
I guess it did seem as I was discrediting the guy as a whole, which I wasn't meaning to do. Seems like he has a good background. But to go as far as saying that brown rice ranks high on the glycemic index leaves one incredulous.Originally Posted by BOHICA
09-17-2005, 09:48 AM
Sorry for the lack of sources in this guys ramblings. Ive read some of his stuff before and actually talked to him through PM. He's alway seemed like a stand up guy who knew his stuff, so I figured Id post this. Take it for what its worth.
Last edited by iwannagetbig; 09-17-2005 at 12:44 PM.
09-17-2005, 12:51 PM
09-17-2005, 01:53 PM
09-17-2005, 02:24 PM
I use HRS(hydrolyzed rice-based carb) from the proteinfactory.com
A patented enzymatic process that creates a low osmolar rice-based electrolyte formula. The process also creates a product that possesses a variety of chain lengths to only 20 grams of glucose in other oral electrolyte products, because glucose is a single, larger molecule. The carbohydrate carries amino acids and electrolytes into the system. Thus the large glucose molecule, in solutions like "the famous sports drink" takes longer for the stomach to digest. The HRS enters into the bloodstream faster than the glucose (dextrose and/or maltodextrin). In one study HRS was 60-80 minutes into the bloodstream before the dextrose drink. The product is instantized thus that means it goes right into solution without a shaker cup or blender and has a fair taste.
2 scoops pro-complex
1/2 cup HRS
2 cups milk
1 tbsp flax-oil
09-17-2005, 08:39 PM
Alan is a stand up guy and for the most part we agree exepct for minor details post workout in which I did debate him a bit in that monstrous thread over at bb.com.Originally Posted by iwannagetbig
I forget what page though but we talked for a good 3-4 pages. From what I understand now he uses oatmeal with his post wokrout shake now but still holds on to adding some dextrose. Old habits die hard
For answers to board issues, read the Suggestion and News forum at the bottom of the main page.
09-17-2005, 08:49 PM
09-17-2005, 11:44 PM
immediately PWO I take:
-2 packets Instant Oatmeal (simple and complex carbs)
-Xpand (Creatine, Glutamine, Arginine)
Then an hour later I'll have a whole food meal
09-18-2005, 04:54 AM
09-18-2005, 05:03 AM
i'd probably just go with 1.5-2 cups oats and 2 scoops whey
simple and gets you the numbers you need
09-22-2005, 10:19 PM
Originally Posted by JonesersRX7All due respect, I'm not impressed with your link there, Jonesers. You're not alone in your thinking that brown rice is a blanketly low-GI food. It's a common misconception, but as the saying goes, you don't know what you don't know, so here's Alan back from the dead with the facts.Originally Posted by JonesersRX7
All documented Australian varieties of brown rice have the following GI's, based on the newer glucose standard (with the exception of 1 variety, the Doongara brown, high amylose, GI = 66):
Calrose brown (Rice Growers Co-op., Australia): 87
Pelde brown (Rice Growers Co-op., Australia): 76
Sunbrown Quick TM (Rice Growers Co-op., Australia): 80
[source: Am J Clin Nutr, July 2002, p. 5-56, w/additions & updates by David Mendosa]
^^By technical definition using the glucose standard, those 3 I listed are all high-GI.
As an aside, GI has strictly limited application; it's confounded by at least a dozen interplaying variables, but that's another discussion entirely.
Back to topic..
Now, what's the significance of Australian-produced brown rice? more than 2000 Australian ricegrowers crank out an annual crop of appx 1.3 million tons from 152,000 hectares. Ricegrowers Cooperative Ltd is Australia’s most successful producer cooperative and the largest of its type in the world. What's the significance of this? 88% of all rice grown in Australia goes for export, much of it to Asia. 40 countries worldwide now buy Australian rice. In Hong Kong, Australian rice holds 25% of the entire market by virtue of its extremely high quality, despite the fact that it is relatively expensive in Hong Kong terms. And get this, China is supposed to be the world leader in rice production -- yet Australia has a quarter of their market by the balls & counting. How can Australia do this? Simple. Australian ricefarmers achieve an average yield of 8.5 tonnes/hectare, which is the highest in the world. If you think that Australia's influence on the worldwide rice market is a small one, think again. And again.
Does this mean that ALL brown rice is high-GI? No. But I didn't say that. The majority taken together as an average probably falls in the high-moderate category. However, there's a critical point that needs to be made. In the literature, the GI of American brown rice, as well as Brown rice with India origins is listed as for the most part in the low bracket, BUT, when you dig up the source, it reads:
"The low GI may be explained by the inclusion of rolled oats in the recipe"
"V Lang (Danone Vitapole Company, Le Plessis-Robinson, France), unpublished observations, 1996-2000."
[source: mendosa.com/gilists.htm, READ THE FOOTNOTES!]
^^That's a little shady, folks. Why would the rest of the world's brown rice GI range from high-moderate to high? Hmmmm.... There's plenty of room for re-interpretation when the variables in question are messed with.
To conclude, thanks for staying skeptical about some random dude's ramblings on the internet. That's healthy, that will get you the facts, that will get the ghost to appear .. Also, keep in mind that here are over 60,000 known varieties of rice worldwide, so we can only speak for what's been documented.
If Bobo reads this - what's up brother, how's life humming along in the glorious golden trenches?
Everybody else (especially those in CA) - I'll be speaking alongside author Ellen Coleman @ the Los Angeles Dietetic Assn's annual conference on Oct 15th in Culver City. The Darkside awaits.
09-22-2005, 11:57 PM
If you can, post when and if you are going to be East Coast.Originally Posted by alan aragon
By the way, "Ultimate Sports Nutrition" Ellen Coleman?
09-23-2005, 02:34 AM
Thanks for jumping on and schooling me on the Australian rice market and where you got the GI on brown rice from!
You should come around more often...
09-23-2005, 08:57 AM
Originally Posted by alan aragon
Whats cooking Alan? Busy as always here
You staying out of trouble with those pesky dieticians?
For answers to board issues, read the Suggestion and News forum at the bottom of the main page.
09-23-2005, 04:48 PM
do you cook you oats before you add them to the shake???
are you using instant oats or the 100% rolled oats?
09-23-2005, 05:31 PM
Life is hectic man. And dietitians are EASY to get in trouble with. Trust me on that one.Originally Posted by Bobo
Joneser - No probs, will do.
The Rest - I used to be a quick oats nazi, but no longer. Old fashioned oats are cheaper & probably have minimal to zero realworld difference in effect. I grind oats up to a powder in a blender dry by itself, then add whatever you want.
Bobo is cool in my book since he likes milk, fruit, & whole eggs - 3 traditional bodybuilding no-no's .
09-23-2005, 05:38 PM
09-23-2005, 05:39 PM
I tried calling Riviana Foods to find out where their brown rice comes from but they have a "Holiday" message on the phones.. they are in Houston - Rita = Holiday? :P
I will let you all know what I find out.
09-23-2005, 07:54 PM
Whoops, missed this. No doubt, It'll be quite a fun trek to the East coast. Also, USN is more geared for endurance athletes than anything else.Originally Posted by jonny21
09-25-2005, 09:28 PM
I will look forward to it. By the way, continuing ed credits available for us "pesky dietitians"?Originally Posted by alan aragon
09-29-2005, 05:09 PM
Wanted to bump this as they are now back in office, so I got ahold of them.Originally Posted by JonesersRX7
According to the analysis of their rice it is on the index as 59. She also said that they grow their rice in America and they also export to China.
04-12-2006, 06:34 PM
I'm new so bare with me, how good is that shake bro?Originally Posted by goldenchild777
I mean as far as putting on good mass. I never seen anyone with extra fat in their pwo shake. School me on that.
04-28-2006, 07:43 PM
Originally Posted by BOHICA
I do this:
4-5 scoops protien shake
4 cups homo milk
5 tbsp peanut butter
4 tbsp chocolate syrup
1 mashed banana
Blend that sheet up at home and bring it for post workout shake and see how good it is.
Peanut butter has an ASSLOAD of calories
04-29-2006, 03:02 AM
04-29-2006, 01:02 PM
Why?Originally Posted by Jayhawkk
I find after a good lifting session my body just breaks al this stuff down faster then i can drink it
Pre and post workout shakes/meals are VERY important to me in order to not go all catabolic
04-29-2006, 01:07 PM
How the hel! do you drink all that and not puke??? Thats a sh1tolad of cals, and a ton of protein! How much do you weigh??Originally Posted by NEED2BANABOLIC
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