Is 200g protein enough?

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  1. Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    Reading your post are gonna give me aneurysm. I have never seen someone so dismissive to science and at the same time attempts to use science as a basis for their brolore. Sigh...

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    Where have I dismissed science, other than the contradictions of your off topic posts for leucine which were totally ignoring the context of leucine's role to begin with? I've been clear that the LG type diets and relatively low protein can ellicit growth. Never had a single contention against that notion.

    I have shown scientific evidence for the benefit of "excess" protein being more effective. So has Jiigz, inadvertently. Hopefully he will realize that angle is one that should be studied with an open mind instead of taking on a personally argumentative and defensive stance. Hell, with his professional ambition, he could make some bad ass discovery and we will all be paying Jiigzz a **** ton of money for developed products catering to BB specific science. But anyways I then gave better detail for my anecdotal beliefs that are continually called in to question, this is not a middle finger to science by any means.

    I would love to see better conducted follow up studies on bodybuilders. High volume, high intensity, high frequency, two a days.... tons of unanswered questions although the indication is that yes, bodybuilding routines ellicit a physiological response much differently than documented "others" in the weight room.

    All I ever get in reply is "OMG, this is just ridiculous. I can't believe it's so ridiculous I'll just ignore it", then if a reply is actually given it's off topic or winds up supporting me anyways.

    I'm not dismissing science, I'm discussing better science on top of good science where optimal gains are concerned.


  2. Quote Originally Posted by TexasGuy View Post
    Where have I dismissed science, other than the contradictions of your off topic posts for leucine which were totally ignoring the context of leucine's role to begin with? I've been clear that the LG type diets and relatively low protein can ellicit growth. Never had a single contention against that notion.

    I have shown scientific evidence for the benefit of "excess" protein being more effective. So has Jiigz, inadvertently. Hopefully he will realize that angle is one that should be studied with an open mind instead of taking on a personally argumentative and defensive stance. Hell, with his professional ambition, he could make some bad ass discovery and we will all be paying Jiigzz a **** ton of money for developed products catering to BB specific science. But anyways I then gave better detail for my anecdotal beliefs that are continually called in to question, this is not a middle finger to science by any means.

    I would love to see better conducted follow up studies on bodybuilders. High volume, high intensity, high frequency, two a days.... tons of unanswered questions although the indication is that yes, bodybuilding routines ellicit a physiological response much differently than documented "others" in the weight room.

    All I ever get in reply is "OMG, this is just ridiculous. I can't believe it's so ridiculous I'll just ignore it", then if a reply is actually given it's off topic or winds up supporting me anyways.

    I'm not dismissing science, I'm discussing better science on top of good science where optimal gains are concerned.

    No worries man. You have to take it all with a grain of salt. I have a hard time doing that myself. I have to remember that when others don't want to consider experience as something to value more than the latest and greatest pseudo study...it's their loss!

    Besides, internet boards tend to worship science like its absolute and perfect in nature. They forget that science is built around imperfect people, lol. Either way, it comes off offensive when you challenge what others have been practicing.
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  3. Quote Originally Posted by fueledpassion View Post
    I agree that 1g to 1.5g is enough for most people to grow, but if they were capable of 2-3g per lb of mass, I'd certainly encourage it. 2g is better than 1g, but 1g is good for slow growth nonetheless. However, I also reserve a special place for carbs since they are the preferred energy source for muscle contractions and high-intensity activity. I just cant believe that this board still holds strongly to their high fat diets - that is so 1970's bodybuilding.

    At Texas, ur last paragraph I believe is referring to an insulin-glucagon axis. The ratio of protein to carbs affects this hormone balance, which is the main factor in body composition. The other factors are fat intake and activity, of course.
    In regards to protein synthesis; here is a huge 'in-between' between 1g.lb and 2g.lb in which optimal protein synthesis occurs. Even then it was shown in 1.44g.KG (not pound) to be optimal, studies reinforced this by showing an increase in lost amino acids in urine with higher value consumption rates.

    Excess protein intakes are so 1970's bodybuilding

  4. Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    In regards to protein synthesis; here is a huge 'in-between' between 1g.lb and 2g.lb in which optimal protein synthesis occurs. Even then it was shown in 1.44g.KG (not pound) to be optimal, studies reinforced this by showing an increase in lost amino acids in urine with higher value consumption rates.

    Excess protein intakes are so 1970's bodybuilding
    Yet other studies show oxidation to be irrelevent to the MPS effect of the "excess" protein. And the TEF values he mentioned as well, outside of MPS specifically lending to benefits of a high protein diet.

  5. Quote Originally Posted by fueledpassion View Post
    Sure.

    Shafrir E. Fructose/sucrose metabolism, its physiological and pathological implications. Sugars and sweeteners, Kretchmer N & Hollenbeck CB, Eds. CRC Press, 1991, p 63-98

    Paige DM, Clinical Nutrition. C.V. Mosby Company, St. Louis, 1988 p 703-704

    the embarrassing thing about it is that this information has been around for 20 years. It also doesnt surprise me that the largest bodybuilders came up in the era of GH and good nutritional information. Now everyone tells u something to sell a product rather than help u get lean and healthy...

    Furthermore, I recommend u research fructokinase and its metabolic pathway as well as how detrimental "high fructose corn syrup" has been on our society since food companies started using the cheap sweetener in place of other sweeteners like maltodextrin and sucrose (which is cheap, too).

    And more...

    http://www.livestrong.com/article/29...cose-fructose/

    http://www.livestrong.com/article/35...e-fat-storage/ (This one is a good supporting write-up)

    and more...http://articles.mercola.com/sites/ar...thers-fat.aspx

    while this guy tries to defend fruit just a little, he actually supports my earlier post claiming that fructose either stores as liver glycogen or gets converted into tricglycerides (fats) and released into the bloodstream. Neither of these processes take the glycogen to the muscle right away, which makes fruit less useful in sports activities such as running and weight-lifting. It also steals room for other glycogen form starches to be stored in the liver, which further increases the likelihood of causing fat storage via insulin. http://weightology.net/?p=434
    Just to be clear, those are arguments against high-fructose corn syrup which is synthetically manufactured for additional sweetning. One of those articles you posted doesn't state any negitive effects, just lists how glucose and frutcose convert to glycogen; well at least it attempts to in plain english. While HFCS is essentially bad for you, that does not imply that Crystalline Fructose is.

    Because HFCS is essentially fructose/glucose mixed into one molecule.
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  6. Quote Originally Posted by TexasGuy View Post
    Yet other studies show oxidation to be irrelevent to the MPS effect of the "excess" protein. And the TEF values he mentioned as well, outside of MPS specifically lending to benefits of a high protein diet.
    What studies? And please, if I must post BBing evidence, so must you.

    In any case, you have your anecdotal evidence and can of course continue to live by that reasoning. I have mine with other BBers and strength athletes who show no difference in body compostition or recovery times with varying protein intakes.

    In the end the decision is yours to make and this debating is going nowhere with neither side conceiving so instead i'll leave it there. Others reading this thread can decide on whose advice to follow.

  7. One last post what I must say is that this debating has lead me to re-read certain notes and make things far more apparent than they previously were (typically you may read a textbook with already ingrained ideologies about what you expect to find, so you tend to ignore everything else- or at least I do); in any case, fueledpassion is right on the money about nutrient partitioning and the likes, the only part I do not agree with is the Fructose- HFCS part which made to seem as though HFCS is the primary monosaccaride found in fruit, which isn't the case.

    His points on CHO and protein and nutrient partitoning are in-line with my own views however I still do not advise increasing protein intake above 1.8g/kg of BW per day unless the requirements of the other macronutrients are met; post exercise I always advise drining gatorade type drinks (as insulin infusion decreases protein degradation) while also supplementing with BCAA's (which I do not include as a part of protein intake as these on their own will not transcript into proteins) as BCAA's increase the sensitivty of the muscle to the protein stimulatory effects of insulin. BCAAs also seem to slow down protein degradation. One more point on this is that hyperaminoacidemia has been shown to increase protein synthesis and amino acid transport.

    Interesting.

  8. Layne norton has some good information on this subject. Check him out on youtube.
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  9. Adressing to the OP intial question: it depends on one's diet and personal response to macros ratio.
    I do ingest 2,5-3gr per kg, because I can see that's what suites me better, above that and I get fat, lower and I can't gain weight. Also I do not respond to high carb diet, so my carbs never go above 40% of the macros wich also makes my body need more protein to convert into glycogen.
    So it all depends on how do you react to the macros ratio and your goal weight. There may be generic scientific research but that what it is: an average number that a scientific study gets from a research. For exemple, there are many scientific studies that show that an healthy men's body can only digest 25-30gr of protein per meal and all above that goes to fat. So, acording to that logic, someone of my size wich the healthy weight is around 220lbs, to get enough protein for muscle building purposes, acording also with many studies that 2,5gr per kg is the upper limit that one should take, I would have to take 250gr of protein dailly divided in more than 8 meals with 30gr of protein each! C'mon guys, that just isn't realistic despite being stated on scientific research. Not saying that it's worthless data but rather that is more a general guideline for someone starting to explore this world of nutrition from wich each one should find it's own measures For me is 300gr of protein daily, spreaded throughout 4-5 meals, for you those 200gr might be enough, too much or not enough

  10. this thread has gotten way outa hand with "science" based facts. does every post have to break down into paragraphs every time?
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  11. Quote Originally Posted by hvactech
    this thread has gotten way outa hand with "science" based facts. does every post have to break down into paragraphs every time?
    This... If it works for you who gives a **** what other people are doing.

  12. Quote Originally Posted by bmftisftw View Post

    This... If it works for you who gives a **** what other people are doing.
    Celorza.

  13. Quote Originally Posted by hvactech View Post
    this thread has gotten way outa hand with "science" based facts. does every post have to break down into paragraphs every time?
    I've just spoken against too much "scientification" of nutrition

  14. Quote Originally Posted by Broly View Post
    I've just spoken against too much "scientification" of nutrition
    Hmm yes
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  15. A good way to make sure you get enough Protien it would be 1-1.5 grams per pound of bodyweight,dont need more.I have been at this for over 28 years and have trained with alot of Mr.Universes and Mr Worlds of the past plus went to school for this.Should be good with 1-1.5 grams
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  16. Quote Originally Posted by dabronx70 View Post
    A good way to make sure you get enough Protien it would be 1-1.5 grams per pound of bodyweight,dont need more.I have been at this for over 28 years and have trained with alot of Mr.Universes and Mr Worlds of the past plus went to school for this.Should be good with 1-1.5 grams


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  17. Does it look like I lift?
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  18. Quote Originally Posted by dabronx70 View Post
    I have been at this for over 28 years and have trained with alot of Mr.Universes and Mr Worlds of the past plus went to school for this.Should be good with 1-1.5 grams
    are the top pro's only eating BW to 1.5x BW? i imagine they are eating more but i guess things change a bit when u toss insulin and peptides in there
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  19. I weigh 205lbs so what I said is plenty.
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  20. Quote Originally Posted by dabronx70 View Post
    Does it look like I lift?
    Don't take the internet too seriously. It was a joke.

  21. Quote Originally Posted by dabronx70
    Does it look like I lift?
    Don't mind Jim. He is a smart ass some times! Don't take him as serious as you are.
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  22. So from various threads and very knowledgeable members of this forum. .5 protein per lb and biceps are worthless? Sound accurate? Lmao sorry had to!

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  23. Quote Originally Posted by OnionKnight View Post
    same here

    the most anyone should ever need is 2.5g/kg body weight. and thats for the ridiculously intense athletes running two days like the ufc fighters do to prepare for fights. the stuff that probly no one here does lol

    those ridiculous 2-3xbody weight is unproven broscience more-is-better logic.
    I spent time with several dietian that work for fighter in the UFC, many of them have very different veiws on diets. It is very indiviualized. What one fighter does does not mean it will work for the next. Another thing to remember, bodybuiolding is its own sport. a diet a fighter does may not work for a person wanting to build mass. Fighters diet to stay within a range of body weight while maximizing strenght and cardiac endurance. A body builder wants muscle mass.

    Also remember you never calculater by body weight. You should calculate by Lean Body Mass of LBM. Once you do that the amunt of protein needed goes down.
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  24. if your natural you dont need that much protein bulking

  25. Quote Originally Posted by joltx View Post
    if your natural you dont need that much protein bulking
    Depends, each body is different and each body's needs are different. If a person is 250 6-6 at 10% they may need 200 plus grams of carbs a day. While a female at 5-2 120lbs and 15% bf may need much less. Approx 75g a day.


    My natural bulks are done at 300g protein. That is what my dietian puts me on, I do we'll on it, no kidney issues or health issues, so I stick with it. Right now I am 6-2 230 at 11%. So pretty much it's 1.5g per lb of lean mass. At The international sports science network classes they advocate 1.4 to 1.7g per lb of lean body mass while bulking and building mass.

    I am not saying I think I need 300g of protein, but I stuck to the diet I am given and that's what it's built on. I think 220g would be adequate, but I would have to alter my carbs and fats to make up calories.
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