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Is 200g protein enough?

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    I weigh 185 and eat around 220-240g of protein. When I'm lean bulking that's perfect for me since I can get more kcals without adding excess carbs/fat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tnubs View Post
    Any studies to back this up? I've been staying at about 1g/lb some days go close to 1.5g and some days I only hit 0.75.
    Quote Originally Posted by hvactech View Post
    me too and continue to make gains
    I just tried to pull them up, they are on the website. However, I am not a member so I cant. It's $250 for their membership. I go to their confrences each year. In April last year they spoke about protein and amino needs while building muscle. I got the numbers from the presentation. I am not arguing you can build mscle without that number. I am at the lower end of protein intake reccomended by them and the biggest I ve ever been. However, I wont act like I am natural. I have ran PH's many times. I believe if I went to 5 organizations all on the same topics, I would hear 5 different opinions. I believe they all would be correct in their own right. But thats because we have many different body types. I am a Mesomorph, a Ecto and Endo would have totally different needs. That should be considered when planning a diet for cutting, bulking, or maintaining.

    Jim thanks, that was all I was trying to do is just say what the ISSN states about protein needs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EatMoar View Post
    I weigh 185 and eat around 220-240g of protein. When I'm lean bulking that's perfect for me since I can get more kcals without adding excess carbs/fat.
    Thats kinda where I stand too.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimbuick View Post
    To be fair, he never said you wouldn't gain at less, or even more, than that. He only said that is what that particular association advocated.

    Don't know why you need studies to show an organizations particular beliefs.
    I only said that because the college nutrition classes(including sports nutrition) I took all drilled in like 1.5g/1kg and all numbers below 1g/1lb and threw all these studies at us showing how athletes are eating too much protein and its going to waste. i just assume they would have some reasoning for recommending a higher dose? i've just never heard of protein consumption that high be recommended before by school system. **** if theres any benefit to it, id be eating it, but ive noticed no enhanced gains with extra high protein consumption
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    Quote Originally Posted by 02sixxer View Post
    Thats kinda where I stand too.
    yeah exactly its not going to hurt you to eat excess protein as long as you drink enough water as well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tnubs View Post
    I only said that because the college nutrition classes(including sports nutrition) I took all drilled in like 1.5g/1kg and all numbers below 1g/1lb and threw all these studies at us showing how athletes are eating too much protein and its going to waste. i just assume they would have some reasoning for recommending a higher dose? i've just never heard of protein consumption that high be recommended before by school system. **** if theres any benefit to it, id be eating it, but ive noticed no enhanced gains with extra high protein consumption
    This conversation happened a few pages ago. "Excess" protein has been shown to positively influence MPS and nitrogen retention regardless of oxidation.
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    Re: Is 200g protein enough?


    Quote Originally Posted by jimbuick View Post

    Don't know why you need studies to show an organizations particular beliefs.
    Considering the organization is named International Sports SCIENCE Network I think it is perfectly reasonable to assume there be some sort of reference to scientific literature from which they base their statements from.

    Quote Originally Posted by tnubs View Post

    i've just never heard of protein consumption that high be recommended before by school system.
    The ISSN is not a school or higher education authority. They are a completely made up organization which imposes itself onto the industry as a authority. They are similar to other organizations such as ASCM, ACE, NSCA but hold less weight in the field



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    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post

    Considering the organization is named International Sports SCIENCE Network I think it is perfectly reasonable to assume there be some sort of reference to scientific literature from which they base their statements from.

    The ISSN is not a school or higher education authority. They are a completely made up organization which imposes itself onto the industry as a authority. They are similar to other organizations such as ASCM, ACE, NSCA but hold less weight

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    You missed my point (I think)

    I was not saying whether they had any or not. Merely that he was sharing that associations beliefs, he never said if it was correct or not.
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    The ISSN is a little more credible than some posters would have you believe:

    "The International Society of Sports Nutrition is recognized as the only not-for-profit academic-based society dedicated to sports nutrition and growing the science of applied nutrition. The ISSN conferences, tutorials, lectures and courses have been recognized (vis a vis attaining continuing education credits) by the American Dietetic Association, National Strength and Conditioning Association, American College of Sports Medicine, American Council on Exercise, American Physical Therapy Association, National Association of Athletic Trainers and other organizations as well. Members of these organizations can earn continuing education credits by attending ISSN Conferences and Symposia. The ISSN is also recognized by many Universities as offering the latest, cutting edge and non-biased information about the science and application of sports nutrition and supplements."

    http://www.sportsnutritionsociety.org/about-us.html

    To flippantly disregard them is a little more telling than the above suspicion (slander?) itself.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TexasGuy View Post
    The ISSN is a little more credible than some posters would have you believe:

    "The International Society of Sports Nutrition is recognized as the only not-for-profit academic-based society dedicated to sports nutrition and growing the science of applied nutrition. The ISSN conferences, tutorials, lectures and courses have been recognized (vis a vis attaining continuing education credits) by the American Dietetic Association, National Strength and Conditioning Association, American College of Sports Medicine, American Council on Exercise, American Physical Therapy Association, National Association of Athletic Trainers and other organizations as well. Members of these organizations can earn continuing education credits by attending ISSN Conferences and Symposia. The ISSN is also recognized by many Universities as offering the latest, cutting edge and non-biased information about the science and application of sports nutrition and supplements."

    http://www.sportsnutritionsociety.org/about-us.html

    To flippantly disregard them is a little more telling than the above suspicion (slander?) itself.
    Sounds like Wikipedia to me
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    Re: Is 200g protein enough?


    Quote Originally Posted by EatMoar View Post
    Sounds like Wikipedia to me
    No he just copied the paragraph from the ISSN website who obviously think pretty highly of themselves.

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    I don't wan to argue about such a petty thing. But as far as ISSN, I have been to a few of their conferences and all of Europa Universities. The ISSN has very good doctors teaching. Matter of fact the last one I went to, had an entire college class their. The resume I the teachers expand from university professors to profession level athletic organizations dietians, to scientist for pharmaceutical companies. Not once was was something stated without scientific evidence that they felt supported their claim. Weather it was from biopsies, blood results, studies using controlled environments am controlled groups. I have been to many other conferences. ISSN's have been some of the best. I have learned things and use it for me and my clients.

    I apologize to the op for for starting this in you thread. And will end with do what works for you. Hell my cousin just has to walk in a gym and he comes out 10lbs heavier. He is beastly an does not have to work for it. Great genetics. I have to eat good and stay up on my cardio to keep a chiseled body.

    Live you all am, sorry to ruffle feathers.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TexasGuy View Post
    This conversation happened a few pages ago. "Excess" protein has been shown to positively influence MPS and nitrogen retention regardless of oxidation.
    Was this actually shown? All I remember reading was a theory by Layne Norton. Not saying he was wrong, but it was a theory.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    Was this actually shown? All I remember reading was a theory by Layne Norton. Not saying he was wrong, but it was a theory.
    Just a theory, not a fact. Some people like to think their words are facts, and I do not mean Layne Norton.
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    Re: Is 200g protein enough?


    There are no facts in science.

    And what Norton proposed is a hypothesis not a theory since no actual testing has taken place.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    There are no facts in science.

    And what Norton proposed is a hypothesis not a theory since no actual testing has taken place.

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    But but but...it is a fact the universe is still expanding! Haha I kid I kid...anyhow strictly speaking you are right, it was merely an uncontested hypothesis.
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    http://www.jci.org/articles/view/112919

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15572657

    Here are a couple of links in relation to the essay, which references it's own studies all of you are free to read.

    Science works both ways, it's not just there to prove you right in an argument about bodybuilding diets. Please take the links in context of the essay if you feel a discussion is warranted. I'm not interested in an off topic tangent.

    The theories presented in the essay are backed by solid science. Read it. Check its references. It is a study supported "best practice" protocol. Nothing personal, bros, read it with an open mind for your own benefit. Or don't, **** it.

    Edit: A better format for the jci.org link http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15572657

    Edit again, my cell phone copy pasted are all ****ed up. Click the .gov link and then full text or show all.
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    I feel that the more protein the better it is for growth
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    If your in college without any other support other than yourself just stick to 1g/lb.. Protein is too expensive yo..i went food shopping yesterday and almost cried when i swiped my debit card
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    I eat 1.5 to 2.0 grams per lb. body weight and that is good.
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    Nothing I say constitutes medical advise. Please check with your medical professional before starting any diet or exercise program.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    Just to be clear, those are arguments against high-fructose corn syrup which is synthetically manufactured for additional sweetning. One of those articles you posted doesn't state any negitive effects, just lists how glucose and frutcose convert to glycogen; well at least it attempts to in plain english. While HFCS is essentially bad for you, that does not imply that Crystalline Fructose is.

    Because HFCS is essentially fructose/glucose mixed into one molecule.

    I am in no way trying to stretch the conversation into an argument. However, it is noteworthy to say that fructose makes up about 60% of HFCS. Hence, "high-fructose" corn syrup. Too much fruit is devastating to a serious bodybuilder. In fact, unless I was literally doing cardio at the moment, I wouldn't eat it period. And even then, maltodextrin and complex carbs in general run circles around fructose's ability to replenish muscle glycogen, since fructose actually doesn't fill muscle glycogen directly but in a rather round about way and at a very pitiful rate at that since a large portion of fructose converts to fatty acids and are put up into fat cells before being utilized later. With that said, marathon runners could eat all the fruit in the world without worrying about accumulating too much fat.

    You can disagree. That is perfectly fine. But what I am saying here has plenty of data to support at least the notion that it might be correct.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    Just to be clear, those are arguments against high-fructose corn syrup which is synthetically manufactured for additional sweetning. One of those articles you posted doesn't state any negitive effects, just lists how glucose and frutcose convert to glycogen; well at least it attempts to in plain english. While HFCS is essentially bad for you, that does not imply that Crystalline Fructose is.

    Because HFCS is essentially fructose/glucose mixed into one molecule.
    Also, I only recall one of those citings actually talking about HFCS. The rest were directly tackling fructose. Read closely.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EatMoar View Post
    Sounds like Wikipedia to me
    It's from their own website however these are not unverifiable statements. They are an organization highly respected by other highly respected organizations. Of course each individual is entitled to his own opinion though, even if it is an obvious bias to support a personal argument as opposed to an objective mind. But that's ok.
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    Holly Jesus...for crying out loud, this is a forum of amateur bodybuilders, perhaps some pro's, but the bottom line of this whole thread and from years of reading about nutrition related to either anaerobic and aerobic sports, even though there are studies showing this or that about fructose, protein, complex carbs, simple carbs, high or low fat diets, one thing I realized: it's all a general idea of how things might work regarding macronutrients metabolism, and for bodybuilding purposes all it matters is how one's know how it's own body respond to a certain amount of macronutrients, regardless the studies made. Not saying science is worthless, it does matter for us to get a notion of what is reasonable to do, but it all boils down to selfconsciousness about one's body metabolism. I can give you the exemple of a friend of mine I know since he was 8 and I: he's 5'10'' weights about 180lbs and has around 7% of bf (that guy have been this lean for ever, even as a child you could see his abs, weird fella), and I'm 6'6'' currently weighting 220lbs and have around 16%bf (no abs in sight, the most I've ever had was 6 pack when I was skinny 175lb giant toothpick so it doesn't count). Nowdays we eat about the same number of meals, same macros and I still have a special care not to eat too many carbs (either simple or complex) and still he is leaner than me, plus he doesn't workout as much as I do. Acording to scientific studies this is almost impossible, since the net amount of calories needed to sustain a 220lbs body is always higher than a 180lbs one, even considering the differences in bf%, so he could never weight only that, still he does. Why so? It all depends on each other's metabolism, insulin sensitivity, protein sythesis and so on. So, you can all bring whatever studies you want, but if you really want a defenitive answer, go to your doctor get set of tests for all your metabolic processes of macronutrients, and then you'll find your real needs, untill then is only a matter of trial and error
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    Quote Originally Posted by Broly View Post
    Holly Jesus...for crying out loud, this is a forum of amateur bodybuilders, perhaps some pro's, but the bottom line of this whole thread and from years of reading about nutrition related to either anaerobic and aerobic sports, even though there are studies showing this or that about fructose, protein, complex carbs, simple carbs, high or low fat diets, one thing I realized: it's all a general idea of how things might work regarding macronutrients metabolism, and for bodybuilding purposes all it matters is how one's know how it's own body respond to a certain amount of macronutrients, regardless the studies made. Not saying science is worthless, it does matter for us to get a notion of what is reasonable to do, but it all boils down to selfconsciousness about one's body metabolism. I can give you the exemple of a friend of mine I know since he was 8 and I: he's 5'10'' weights about 180lbs and has around 7% of bf (that guy have been this lean for ever, even as a child you could see his abs, weird fella), and I'm 6'6'' currently weighting 220lbs and have around 16%bf (no abs in sight, the most I've ever had was 6 pack when I was skinny 175lb giant toothpick so it doesn't count). Nowdays we eat about the same number of meals, same macros and I still have a special care not to eat too many carbs (either simple or complex) and still he is leaner than me, plus he doesn't workout as much as I do. Acording to scientific studies this is almost impossible, since the net amount of calories needed to sustain a 220lbs body is always higher than a 180lbs one, even considering the differences in bf%, so he could never weight only that, still he does. Why so? It all depends on each other's metabolism, insulin sensitivity, protein sythesis and so on. So, you can all bring whatever studies you want, but if you really want a defenitive answer, go to your doctor get set of tests for all your metabolic processes of macronutrients, and then you'll find your real needs, untill then is only a matter of trial and error
    Ye s sir. It's your own body do what works for you following a modified guideline. That's why body building is a single person sport because you have to know your own body and what works for you may not work for someone else .
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    Quote Originally Posted by fueledpassion View Post
    I am in no way trying to stretch the conversation into an argument. However, it is noteworthy to say that fructose makes up about 60% of HFCS. Hence, "high-fructose" corn syrup. Too much fruit is devastating to a serious bodybuilder. In fact, unless I was literally doing cardio at the moment, I wouldn't eat it period. And even then, maltodextrin and complex carbs in general run circles around fructose's ability to replenish muscle glycogen, since fructose actually doesn't fill muscle glycogen directly but in a rather round about way and at a very pitiful rate at that since a large portion of fructose converts to fatty acids and are put up into fat cells before being utilized later. With that said, marathon runners could eat all the fruit in the world without worrying about accumulating too much fat.

    You can disagree. That is perfectly fine. But what I am saying here has plenty of data to support at least the notion that it might be correct.
    Quote Originally Posted by fueledpassion View Post
    I am in no way trying to stretch the conversation into an argument. However, it is noteworthy to say that fructose makes up about 60% of HFCS. Hence, "high-fructose" corn syrup. Too much fruit is devastating to a serious bodybuilder. In fact, unless I was literally doing cardio at the moment, I wouldn't eat it period. And even then, maltodextrin and complex carbs in general run circles around fructose's ability to replenish muscle glycogen, since fructose actually doesn't fill muscle glycogen directly but in a rather round about way and at a very pitiful rate at that since a large portion of fructose converts to fatty acids and are put up into fat cells before being utilized later. With that said, marathon runners could eat all the fruit in the world without worrying about accumulating too much fat.

    You can disagree. That is perfectly fine. But what I am saying here has plenty of data to support at least the notion that it might be correct.
    HFCS percentages vary dependant on how it is produced; it can be as low as 45% fructose with the rest from glucose. And in actual fact it isn't even technically a sugar, therefore the linkage between standard fructose and HFCS cannot be made as they are not one in the same. BUT, that doesn't mean I disagree that fructose can lead to increased adiposity because I also think it can, and it has been shown to. Which is why I would opt for low fructose fruits over high fructose.

    I was just pointing out that one study showed HFCS as being bad (which I too agree with) and another was an article on what fructose is.

    So just to be clear, I wasn't disagreeing, just pointing out the differences
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post

    HFCS percentages vary dependant on how it is produced; it can be as low as 45% fructose with the rest from glucose. And in actual fact it isn't even technically a sugar, therefore the linkage between standard fructose and HFCS cannot be made as they are not one in the same. BUT, that doesn't mean I disagree that fructose can lead to increased adiposity because I also think it can, and it has been shown to. Which is why I would opt for low fructose fruits over high fructose.

    I was just pointing out that one study showed HFCS as being bad (which I too agree with) and another was an article on what fructose is.

    So just to be clear, I wasn't disagreeing, just pointing out the differences
    Which fruits do you generally recommend?
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimbuick View Post
    Which fruits do you generally recommend?
    If you are concerned with excessive fructose intakes, then any fruits with low a low fructose:glucose ratio are a viable option; Apricots, peaches and pineapples are a few. Generally speaking the ones to avoid are apples, pears, figs, grapes and maybe even bananas.

    I like my bananas to much to drop them though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post

    If you are concerned with excessive fructose intakes, then any fruits with low a low fructose:glucose ratio are a viable option; Apricots, peaches and pineapples are a few. Generally speaking the ones to avoid are apples, pears, figs, grapes and maybe even bananas.

    I like my bananas to much to drop them though.
    I don't eat a lot of fruits as it is (I just don't like them)

    So this conversation interests me to see which fruits I should steer clear of when I make myself eat them lol.

    I'm a Berry guy personally.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimbuick View Post
    I don't eat a lot of fruits as it is (I just don't like them)

    So this conversation interests me to see which fruits I should steer clear of when I make myself eat them lol.

    I'm a Berry guy personally.
    Berries are definitely a good option. I always have a handful of them a day (blueberries) + a banana
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    Re: Is 200g protein enough?


    Optimal fructose intake is roughly around 25g but this changes once you add athletic activities. Then you have to adjust for time spent and intensity. Being active means you are going to be burning through liver glyocogen more than your average joe schmo. Depending on the athlete you can probably go upwards of 100g without it being deleterious to your health.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    Optimal fructose intake is roughly around 25g but this changes once you add athletic activities. Then you have to adjust for time spent and intensity. Being active means you are going to be burning through liver glyocogen more than your average joe schmo. Depending on the athlete you can probably go upwards of 100g without it being deleterious to your health.

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    In all honesty, rather than dropping fruit (because really it doesnt contain MUCH fructose, <10g), drop other fructose containing foods (products that use it as a sweetner) in replacement of fruit.

    Perhaps this is the stance I should steer toward as fruit has a myriad of benefits that imo outweigh the negitives.
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    Re: Is 200g protein enough?


    Now I'm not saying fructose is bad because this is not what I believe. Excessive fructose intake is when we see problems and as you arealdy points out fruits are fairly low of fructose so taking in the excessive amount of fructose all from fruit is going to be challenging.

    Fruit averages like 3g-8g a serving. So if one eats 3 servings of fruit at the higher end or 8 servings of fruit from the lower end he would be at optimal intake.

    Excessive fructose intake only really becomes much of a problem with the prevelance of HFCS in every damn thing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    Now I'm not saying fructose is bad because this is not what I believe. Excessive fructose intake is when we see problems and as you arealdy points out fruits are fairly low of fructose so taking in the excessive amount of fructose all from fruit is going to be challenging.

    Fruit averages like 3g-8g a serving. So if one eats 3 servings of fruit at the higher end or 8 servings of fruit from the lower end he would be at optimal intake.

    Excessive fructose intake only really becomes much of a problem with the prevelance of HFCS in every damn thing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    HFCS percentages vary dependant on how it is produced; it can be as low as 45% fructose with the rest from glucose. And in actual fact it isn't even technically a sugar, therefore the linkage between standard fructose and HFCS cannot be made as they are not one in the same. BUT, that doesn't mean I disagree that fructose can lead to increased adiposity because I also think it can, and it has been shown to. Which is why I would opt for low fructose fruits over high fructose.

    I was just pointing out that one study showed HFCS as being bad (which I too agree with) and another was an article on what fructose is.

    So just to be clear, I wasn't disagreeing, just pointing out the differences
    Cool. Sometimes I get so tunnel-visioned about my preference to macro's & food preferences since it has worked so incredibly well for me. I forget that others start at different places. However, I don't like the idea of laying over belly up because "my genetics" are fighting against my will. I have permenantly altered my metabolism due to this diet and consistent cardio (couple of times per week).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    In all honesty, rather than dropping fruit (because really it doesnt contain MUCH fructose, <10g), drop other fructose containing foods (products that use it as a sweetner) in replacement of fruit.

    Perhaps this is the stance I should steer toward as fruit has a myriad of benefits that imo outweigh the negitives.
    Something else to be noted, when it comes to fructose to glucose content in various fruits, is that not all fruits are equal in this manner. Some contain way more fructose than glucose and visa versa. I'd say be wary of fructose sweetened protein/energy bars, juices, & HFCS sweetened foods which pretty much includes everything processed + sweetened, lol. But that's just me.

    And getting back into topic, protein requirements have nothing to do with fructose intake, as they are usually mutually exclusive (in most cases).
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    Quote Originally Posted by fueledpassion View Post
    Something else to be noted, when it comes to fructose to glucose content in various fruits, is that not all fruits are equal in this manner. Some contain way more fructose than glucose and visa versa. I'd say be wary of fructose sweetened protein/energy bars, juices, & HFCS sweetened foods which pretty much includes everything processed + sweetened, lol. But that's just me.

    And getting back into topic, protein requirements have nothing to do with fructose intake, as they are usually mutually exclusive (in most cases).
    Yeah, I touched on that earlier in this thread I think (apricots being low fructose and apples being high). I'm definitely on par with you avoiding products sweetened in glucose; however I don't tend to eat alot of processed foods any way. I prefer primal eating (might start paleo soon).
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    I hate paleo, only bc I can't eat my oatmeal. I eat a diet very close to a paleo but, I do eat rice and oatmeal and that is a no no. Also a very good book is The Primal Blueprint.
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    Paleo only happens for me about 1 week out from my competition, lol. During maintenance and bulking, and due to my ectomorphic nature, oatmeal, whole grains, potatoes and rice must remain as 50% or more of my diet. Otherwise I just dont grow.
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    Re: Is 200g protein enough?


    Quote Originally Posted by fueledpassion View Post
    Paleo only happens for me about 1 week out from my competition, lol. During maintenance and bulking, and due to my ectomorphic nature, oatmeal, whole grains, potatoes and rice must remain as 50% or more of my diet. Otherwise I just dont grow.
    I doubt you "need" oatmeal and whole grains to grow. I'm sure you can hit whatever carb amount you want with potatoes and rice. When I was keto I would hit 700g carbs on refeeds no problem. IMO white rice and potatoes still fall under the paleo guidelines ( minimal processed and non inflammatory)

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