I'm Overthinking This

[xigotmailx]

I just want the input of some others for a little help on my diet. I've been making meal plan, editing, throwing away, making a new, repeat, repeat, repeat....Anyways, I'm going to start an SD cycle here next Monday, will be my 3rd SD cycle I believe. Made all kinds of gains on the last with around a 2-2.5k diet but macros weren't very much counted.

Stats:
5'10"
180

Current Plan =

Cal - 3008

Carb - 298

Fat - 98

Pro - 262

I'll hit that everyday, and by writing this, I've already figured that I don't have a question or anything. These macros should be fine. As my weight starts to increase I think I'll just go ahead and start adding milk to my diet

For those who want to know what I'm eating *simple*
1lb 85/15 Ground Beef
1lb Boneless Skinless Chicken Breast
500g Russet Potatoes
1 cup Rice
6 oz Spaghetti w/ 1 cup Sauce

I'm also looking at a 5 day split, what do you think of this routine:

Just looking from some hints and tips on lifts that I'll be performing and if there is a better alternative to what I've chose

Shoulders & Traps
Military Press
BB Shrug
DB Rear Lateral
DB Shrug
DB SHoulder Press
Dips


Back
Rack Deadlift
Bent Over Row
Pullups
Lat Pulldown
-> Seated Cable Row
1 arm Lat Pulldown
-> 1 arm Seated Row


Chest
Flat DB Bench
Incline BB Bench
High Pulley Crossover
-> Incline DB Flies
Flat DB Flies
-> Low Pulley Crossover


Legs
Squat
Stiff Leg Deadlift
Leg Press
Leg Curl
Leg Extension
Hack Squat


Arms
BB Curl
Skull Crusher
-> Close Grip Bench
DB Curl
Overhead Triceps Extension
Reverse BB Curl
Cable Triceps Pressdown


* -> = Super Set *

 

[TexasGuy]

I would add:

Front and lateral raises to shoulders

Facepulls to back

Calves of some kind to legs


Edit: military and dumbell shoulder press are pretty redundant where variety can be incorporated instead.

 

[xigotmailx]

Thanks for the reply! I left out Ab and Calf work for some reason. I'll hit Abs 3 times a week, Mon, Wed, Fri, but only 2 exercises per day *upper/lower abs* and Calves 2 times a week on Tues and Thurs *standing/seated*. I also read the edit, so I'll probably drop the DB shoulder press for the raises

 

[TexasGuy]

Thanks for the reply! I left out Ab and Calf work for some reason. I'll hit Abs 3 times a week, Mon, Wed, Fri, but only 2 exercises per day *upper/lower abs* and Calves 2 times a week on Tues and Thurs *standing/seated*. I also read the edit, so I'll probably drop the DB shoulder press for the raises

Sounds good.

Just food for thought, weighted rope crunches and cable woodchoppers are awesome ab exercises.

 

[xigotmailx]

Thanks again my man. I will have the rope crunches in there, guess I'll just post up the workouts

Mon:
Decline Situp
Leg Raises

Tues:
Standing/Seated Calfves

Wed:
Reverse Hypers
Side Bends

Thur:
Standing/Seated Calves

Fri:
Hanging Knee Raise
Rope Pulldown

All the abs I'll be doing weighted and just working my way up. Thanks again for the critiques!

 

[Jiigzz]

I would add:

Front and lateral raises to shoulders

Facepulls to back

Calves of some kind to legs


Edit: military and dumbell shoulder press are pretty redundant where variety can be incorporated instead.

I disagree with adding front raises; considering that will cause an imbalance in the front and rear delts usually due to the fact bench press smashes the front delts more than enough and, dependant on your form, OHP will too.

 

[TexasGuy]

I disagree with adding front raises; considering that will cause an imbalance in the front and rear delts usually due to the fact bench press smashes the front delts more than enough and, dependant on your form, OHP will too.

His row variations and dumbell rear laterals will add balance to his rear delts and hopefully he will add the face pulls too. I don't think he will have an issue in the big picture but if so he can cut back.

I am curious though, OP, can you provide details as to sets and reps?

 

[Jiigzz]

His row variations and dumbell rear laterals will add balance to his rear delts and hopefully he will add the face pulls too. I don't think he will have an issue in the big picture but if so he can cut back.

I am curious though, OP, can you provide details as to sets and reps?

Perhaps. But from my experience and many others on this board, many people tend to have overly developed anterior delts and underdeveloped rear delts; ZiR also posted something about front delt raises in another thread detailing why they may be bad for shoulder health (if i remember correctly).

Def agree with face pulls.

 

[Rodja]

Perhaps. But from my experience and many others on this board, many people tend to have overly developed anterior delts and underdeveloped rear delts; ZiR also posted something about front delt raises in another thread detailing why they may be bad for shoulder health (if i remember correctly).

Def agree with face pulls.

The ROM tends to lead to impingements and they're already stressed enough without direct work.

There are only 4 movements with horizontal extensions and 6 with horizontal flexion. There's way more internal rotator work than external rotator work.

 

[TexasGuy]

Perhaps. But from my experience and many others on this board, many people tend to have overly developed anterior delts and underdeveloped rear delts; ZiR also posted something about front delt raises in another thread detailing why they may be bad for shoulder health (if i remember correctly).

Def agree with face pulls.

And he may or may not, his lift outline technically gives balance, especially if he adds face pulls. Whether or not he has a pre-existing imbalance to correct is another topic.

As far as exercises coming under fire for safety, while I can respectfully acknowledge concerns, I also realize squats, deadlifts, most olympic lifts and a slew of other staples would be dead soldiers and we would all be using shake weights on bosu balls if we adhered to every warning. My take is to monitor yourself. Abnormal pain or inflammation should be taken in to personal account.

 

[Rodja]

And he may or may not, his lift outline technically gives balance, especially if he adds face pulls. Whether or not he has a pre-existing imbalance to correct is another topic.

As far as exercises coming under fire for safety, while I can respectfully acknowledge concerns, I also realize squats, deadlifts, most olympic lifts and a slew of other staples would be dead soldiers and we would all be using shake weights on bosu balls if we adhered to every warning. My take is to monitor yourself. Abnormal pain or inflammation should be taken in to personal account.

On what planet is his routine balanced? 11 lifts that stress the internal rotators and only 4 for the external rotators.

 

[TexasGuy]

Before this turns in to another argument, let's be clear that any discussion point based on subjective values such as "enough stimulation" will go unsubstantiated.


OP, if you feel pain in any lift, assess your form, mobility, flexibility and ROM. If all systems are go but pain persists, drop the lift.

Personally upright rows kill my shoulders but front raises, along with most of the lifts you will be using, have led to excellent gains without issue. Just know your body, they are not all alike.

 

[Rodja]

Before this turns in to another argument, let's be clear that any discussion point based on subjective values such as "enough stimulation" will go unsubstantiated.


OP, if you feel pain in any lift, assess your form, mobility, flexibility and ROM. If all systems are go but pain persists, drop the lift.

Personally upright rows kill my shoulders but front raises, along with most of the lifts you will be using, have led to excellent gains without issue. Just know your body, they are not all alike.

We're talking about planar balance, which is easily observable. This routine is most likely going to lead to internally rotated humerus' and impingements in the biceps tendon and/or supraspinatus.

 

[TexasGuy]

On what planet is his routine balanced? 11 lifts that stress the internal rotators and only 4 for the external rotators.

Balanced for aesthetic purposes.

OP, can you set a goal basis? What are you wanting to achieve?

 

[Rodja]

Balanced for aesthetic purposes.

OP, can you set a goal basis? What are you wanting to achieve?

I'm not speaking from an aesthetic perspective at all. I'm speaking from a planar balance perspective for optimal posture and injury/impingement prevention.

 

[TexasGuy]

We're talking about planar balance, which is easily observable. This routine is most likely going to lead to internally rotated humerus' and impingements in the biceps tendon and/or supraspinatus.

I'm talking about aesthetic balance he seems to be after. You can talk about planar balance if you want.

Let's be totally cautious though and have him eliminate squats, deads and bent over rows. He's headed to herniated disks for sure!

 

[Rodja]

I'm talking about aesthetic balance he seems to be after. You can talk about planar balance if you want.

Let's be totally cautious though and have him eliminate squats, deads and bent over rows. He's headed to herniated disks for sure!

A better idea would be to completely disregard anything that you suggest.

 

[TexasGuy]

A better idea would be to completely disregard anything that you suggest.

Lol.

What do you have against face pulls and direct calf work?

 

[TexasGuy]

OP, I'm being sarcastic about eliminating squats, deads and rows. Hit them hard.

 

[Rodja]

Lol.

What do you have against face pulls and direct calf work?

Where did I say anything suggesting that I am an opponent of either of those? Do your reading abilities really suck that badly?

 

[TexasGuy]

Where did I say anything suggesting that I am an opponent of either of those? Do your reading abilities really suck that badly?

Those are things I suggested and you suggested ignoring everything I suggest, like maybe two minutes ago.

This is getting weird.

OP, your routine should lead to a balanced, aesthetic look. Make adjustments as necessary. I'm sure Rodja would love to talk to you about planar balance and will make interesting points.

 

[Rodja]

Those are things I suggested and you suggested ignoring everything I suggest, like maybe two minutes ago.

This is getting weird.

OP, your routine should lead to a balanced, aesthetic look. Make adjustments as necessary. I'm sure Rodja would love to talk to you about planar balance and will make interesting points.

The notion that some facepulls will suffice for balance is absurd. Almost all BB'ing routines are horribly imbalanced because BB'ers know jack **** about making a balanced routine with regards to internal:external rotator balance. Hell, most routines have zero regard to this because it is above their heads.

 

[TexasGuy]

The notion that some facepulls will suffice for balance is absurd. Almost all BB'ing routines are horribly imbalanced because BB'ers know jack **** about making a balanced routine with regards to internal:external rotator balance. Hell, most routines have zero regard to this because it is above their heads.

Ok cool. I'm still discussing aesthetic balance though. But hey, any input would be appreciated by the OP I'm sure.

 

[TexasGuy]

Oh yeah, and FTR, in bodybuilding, aesthetic balance is a goal intentionally achieved; not a default consequence of ignorance. Let's not start measuring X against Y on Y's terms again please.

 

[Rodja]

Oh yeah, and FTR, in bodybuilding, aesthetic balance is a goal intentionally achieved; not a default consequence of ignorance. Let's not start measuring X against Y on Y's terms again please.

Thanks for the half assed attempt to give me an ambiguous definition regarding BB'ing. Here's the problem with your premise: balance is easily and indisputably measurable.

 

[xigotmailx]

Your two's arguing made me laugh Rodja, you haven't suggested any other movements to even out the routine, just talked about how there are

11 lifts that stress the internal rotators and only 4 for the external rotators.

Gimme some hints if it's that big of a deal to argue over

Edit1:
As for lifts that cause pain, reverse bb curl. I will probably switch to DB's or scrap it for plate pinches*which I think I'll do*

Edit2:
Oh, 3x12 on all lifts

 

[TexasGuy]

Your two's arguing made me laugh Rodja, you haven't suggested any other movements to even out the routine, just talked about how there are Gimme some hints if it's that big of a deal to argue over

Edit1:
As for lifts that cause pain, reverse bb curl. I will probably switch to DB's or scrap it for plate pinches*which I think I'll do*

Edit2:
Oh, 3x12 on all lifts

Sometimes BB reverse curls cause issue for me too. I broke the same bone in my left wrist twice as a kid and I'm pretty sure the pain is an extension of that. *


Dumbells or a knurled bar gripped at the right angle cause no issue though.




* FTR, I don't have a double blind, peer reviewed study conducted in a controlled setting to prove this. I only have one left wrist. Pain very well could be caused by something else. Dumbells and knurled bars work either way though, for me.

 

[Rodja]

Your two's arguing made me laugh Rodja, you haven't suggested any other movements to even out the routine, just talked about how there are Gimme some hints if it's that big of a deal to argue over

Edit1:
As for lifts that cause pain, reverse bb curl. I will probably switch to DB's or scrap it for plate pinches*which I think I'll do*

Edit2:
Oh, 3x12 on all lifts

Lifts you have listed that stress internal rotators:
All chest movements
DB/BB shoulder presses
Pullups/downs

Lifts for external:
Rows
Rear fly

Forearm curls are a waste of time compared to grip training, which will stimulate both the flexors and extensors in a static motion. Utilizing something along the lines of Fat Gripz during training will take away the need for any forearm training and will also ease any elbow pain you may incur.

Sticking to one specific rep range is a recipe for stagnation after the initial accumulation. One of the biggest reasons for a quick plateau with BB'ing routines is a lack of any periodization and overload. The simple adage of "eat more and lift heavier" does not qualify as a periodization scheme.

 

[saggy321]

I'm talking about aesthetic balance he seems to be after. You can talk about planar balance if you want.

Let's be totally cautious though and have him eliminate squats, deads and bent over rows. He's headed to herniated disks for sure!

I don't understand why rather than acknowledge the suggestion of someone who is better informed, your immediate reaction is to disregard it and make it seem that it is without basis. You did the same on another post when someone, using current research, challenged the six meals a day paradigm. There are a few people on this board who are both intelligent and well read on physiology, nutrition and exercise science and Rodja is one of them.

 

[TexasGuy]

I don't understand why rather than acknowledge the suggestion of someone who is better informed, your immediate reaction is to disregard it and make it seem that it is without basis. You did the same on another post when someone, using current research, challenged the six meals a day paradigm. There are a few people on this board who are both intelligent and well read on physiology, nutrition and exercise science and Rodja is one of them.

Regarding this thread, I'm not challenging Rodja and his planar balance advice that may or may not be given. I was discussing an aesthetic balance, which he challenged with planar balance. It's really not even an argument as they are two totally separate issues. It's a shame it was forced to become an argument. As stated, I'm sure Rodja can make interesting points regarding planar balance. Still a different topic though.

Regarding diet, the whole argument spun off of applying one methodology to another. Anyone not stuck on ramrodding an argument will tell you this is stupid. Multiple diets work through various metabolic pathways and to say one is wrong, though it has been successfully implemented for decades is also stupid. Do people understand how IF works? Yes. Have I acknowledged it works from the beginning? Yes. Is this even the point of contention at all? No.

 

[xigotmailx]

Lifts you have listed that stress internal rotators:
All chest movements
DB/BB shoulder presses
Pullups/downs

Lifts for external:
Rows
Rear fly

Forearm curls are a waste of time compared to grip training, which will stimulate both the flexors and extensors in a static motion. Utilizing something along the lines of Fat Gripz during training will take away the need for any forearm training and will also ease any elbow pain you may incur.

Sticking to one specific rep range is a recipe for stagnation after the initial accumulation. One of the biggest reasons for a quick plateau with BB'ing routines is a lack of any periodization and overload. The simple adage of "eat more and lift heavier" does not qualify as a periodization scheme.

Thanks for pointing those things out, but could you suggest some lifts to change up to even out the imbalance you've pointed out. Maybe by eliminating the DB shoulder press for another lift that hits the external rotators, that would even things up?

I am going with plate pinches for grip/forearm training

As for periodization, I will start to add sets as my body begins to become more accumulated with the workout as it is now. Every now and then I will switch up the principals of Volume, Intensity, Frequency. This type of split for me has shown the best gains so far. I have a couple upper/lower routines as well as full body

 

[Rodja]

I'd rotate between BB and DB shoulder presses instead of both and replaced with facepulls or seated DB cleans. Take out the 1 arm pulldowns on back day and then one of the crossover and one fly as well on chest. I'm not sure why you dips listed for shoulders and traps.

That right there takes out 4 internal rotation movements and adds an additional external rotator movement.

On a different note, don't superset skullcrushers and close grip. Do them separately with close grip first.

 

[xigotmailx]

I'd rotate between BB and DB shoulder presses instead of both and replaced with facepulls or seated DB cleans. Take out the 1 arm pulldowns on back day and then one of the crossover and one fly as well on chest. I'm not sure why you dips listed for shoulders and traps.

That right there takes out 4 internal rotation movements and adds an additional external rotator movement.

On a different note, don't superset skullcrushers and close grip. Do them separately with close grip first.

Shoulders & Traps
Military Press
BB Shrug
DB Rear Lateral
DB Shrug
*Seated DB Clean or Face Pulls
*Face Pulls or Rear BB Shrug?


Back
Rack Deadlift
Bent Over Row
*T-Bar Row
Pullups
Lat Pulldown
Seated Cable Row


Chest
Flat DB Bench
Incline BB Bench
High Pulley Crossover
Incline DB Flies
*Dips
*???

Legs
Squat
Stiff Leg Deadlift
Leg Press
Hack Squat
Leg Curl
Leg Extension


Arms
Close Grip Bench
BB Curl
Skull Crusher
DB Curl
Overhead Triceps Extension
Plate Pinch
Rope Triceps Pressdown

Does that look better? I would like 1 more chest exercise and some input on the shoulders/traps day again. With the seated db clean and facepull, would it be alright to add both? All edits/questions made are in red.

 

[Rodja]

If you're doing DB shrugs, there's not much point to doing rear BB shrug. Alternate between facepulls and seated DB cleans or, after you get the form down, occasionally superset them. On back, alternate between T-bar, DB, and Meadows rows for variation. 5 lifts for chest is more than enough and put dips before the isolation work.

 

[xigotmailx]

Thanks a bunch for the help! I can't wait to see the results from this. I may or may not start my cycle on Monday, if not Monday, then it'll be next monday

 

[Rodja]

Thanks a bunch for the help! I can't wait to see the results from this. I may or may not start my cycle on Monday, if not Monday, then it'll be next monday

No problem. If you have any more questions, PM me.

 

[TexasGuy]

Does that look better? I would like 1 more chest exercise and some input on the shoulders/traps day again. With the seated db clean and facepull, would it be alright to add both? All edits/questions made are in red.

From an aesthetic perspective, your modified routine is geared heavily to build thickness on back day, which is fine, but if you get in to it and feel you need more width you will have to add more pulldowns. Internal rotation and all. You can **** around with wide grip rows but it isn't the same. Pullovers are great too.

Your shoulders, from an aesthetic perspective, will really benefit from lateral and front raises. They respond well to high volume and isolation work.

Facepulls are awesome. Kudos for adding them.

 

[Jiigzz]

From an aesthetic view, adding front raises will only serve to create an imbalance between front delts and rear delts. For reasons aforementioned.

 

[Sean1332]

From an aesthetic view, adding front raises will only serve to create an imbalance between front delts and rear delts. For reasons aforementioned.

Exactly. Youll see guys in the gym doing sets of overhead press, then 4 sets lateral raises, then 4 sets front raises. After all that they'll finally do some bent over rear delt flys with 5 pounders.

I think your average gym go-er have under developed posterior delts.

 

[TexasGuy]

From an aesthetic view, adding front raises will only serve to create an imbalance between front delts and rear delts. For reasons aforementioned.

Not with rear laterals and facepulls in the mix along with his rows, as previously mentioned.

 

[Jiigzz]

Not with rear laterals and facepulls in the mix along with his rows, as previously mentioned.

I still doubt that those can match the amount of a trashing the average gym person places on their anterior delts after a bench session.

 

[TexasGuy]

Exactly. Youll see guys in the gym doing sets of overhead press, then 4 sets lateral raises, then 4 sets front raises. After all that they'll finally do some bent over rear delt flys with 5 pounders.

I think your average gym go-er have under developed posterior delts.

Generally speaking, yes. We don't really know if the OP has any imbalances. The routine itself doesn't necessarily favor front delts. His shoulder day already incorporates two rear delt exercises, his back day will hit them as well with rows and pulldowns/ups. If anything he can add band pull aparts or reverse flys for more volume though I don't think he will need it.

He certainly shouldn't let a weak link dictate his program. Train it up IF it even develops.

If the OP already has an imbalance then sure, don't feed it. But my response is to his routine, not what I assume his shoulders look like based on bromos at my gym.

 

[TexasGuy]

I still doubt that those can match the amount of a trashing the average gym person places on their anterior delts after a bench session.

I'm not musing randomly about average gym goers. I'm talking about the specific outline in this thread.

 

[Sean1332]

Generally speaking, yes. We don't really know if the OP has any imbalances. The routine itself doesn't necessarily favor front delts. His shoulder day already incorporates two rear delt exercises, his back day will hit them as well with rows and pulldowns/ups. If anything he can add band pull aparts or reverse flys for more volume though I don't think he will need it.

He certainly shouldn't let a weak link dictate his program. Train it up IF it even develops.

If the OP already has an imbalance then sure, don't feed it. But my response is to his routine, not what I assume his shoulders look like based on bromos at my gym.

I was just making a general assessment in agreement to Jigz's post, not meant towards you or the OP specifically. I jumped into this convo late..

 

[TexasGuy]

I was just making a general assessment in agreement to Jigz's post, not meant towards you or the OP specifically. I jumped into this convo late..

I know. I'm not jumping on you, I was just using your post to elaborate. Tone is hard to convey online

 

[Sean1332]

loud noises!

 

[TexasGuy]

And Brick killed a guy!

 

[xigotmailx]

For shoulders, I did not do the front raises, I have put in side lateral raises in until I find another lift.

For back, I added the T-bar rows and doing wide grip seated rows.

For chest, I added DB Pullover *back, chest, SERRATUS* lol, obviously added for a reason

Legs and arms seem to be good as is.

I also pulled a 2-a-day, hitting shoulders am and back pm. Mostly due to being bored and hyper with only one thing on my mind. So, i'm unsure as what I will do tomorrow.

Diet wise, i'm up 5 pounds...today lol. But, I feel at 180, that 3,000 calories will end up just being maintenance. I'm feeling that a good bulk from this cycle will set me up very well for a May cut/recomp with a 60mgTrenavar/10mgDMZ combo that I got a while back called, Pro Trenazine. Now, with diet in mind what do you all think would be a could caloric goal for me. The macros currently are quite in check, and maybe adding in a 800-1k calorie protein shake into the mix would have me making ALL KINDS OF GAINZZZ.

What do you all think?

 

[Jiigzz]

I'm not musing randomly about average gym goers. I'm talking about the specific outline in this thread.

In any case, the anterior deltoids are placed under enormous stress during chest day and barely any stress is placed on rear delts during standard barbell rows. Have a read of this; http://www.unchainedfitness.com/blog/emg-for-muscle-activation

It outlines the amount of stress the anterior deltoid gets over that of the rear deltoid due to the number of exerices that specifically include the anterior deltoid whether as a prime mover or synergist. Not to mention many people perform much more variations of the bench press and with high volume but conversely tend to have much lower volume for rear delt specific exercises (i.e. rear delt flys and band pull aprts/ face pulls etc.)

 

[TexasGuy]

In any case, the anterior deltoids are placed under enormous stress during chest day and barely any stress is placed on rear delts during standard barbell rows. Have a read of this; http://www.unchainedfitness.com/blog/emg-for-muscle-activation

It outlines the amount of stress the anterior deltoid gets over that of the rear deltoid due to the number of exerices that specifically include the anterior deltoid whether as a prime mover or synergist. Not to mention many people perform much more variations of the bench press and with high volume but conversely tend to have much lower volume for rear delt specific exercises (i.e. rear delt flys and band pull aprts/ face pulls etc.)

We can agree to disagree where this specific routine in this thread is concerned.

I am not arguing the general gym populace.