Thermogenic for adding size?

Liquid13

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Can someone with a lot of knowledge chime in for me on my question? I'm not very educated when it comes to thermogenics or metabolism, buuuuuuuuuuut..... would a thermogenic help you eat more by creating hunger? Also can you eat slightly worse w/o too much more fat accumulation while on a thermogenic? And finally... will nutrients be absorbed quicker allowing for more *uh hem* protein or what not to be absorbed over a period of time??? I may sound stupid here, but at least maybe I'll be smarter than the guy who didn't ask! :1zhelp:

p.s. I know thermogenics are used as a source for losing weight, but in a bulking state can it be useful?
 
dsade

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Can someone with a lot of knowledge chime in for me on my question? I'm not very educated when it comes to thermogenics or metabolism, buuuuuuuuuuut..... would a thermogenic help you eat more by creating hunger? Also can you eat slightly worse w/o too much more fat accumulation while on a thermogenic? And finally... will nutrients be absorbed quicker allowing for more *uh hem* protein or what not to be absorbed over a period of time??? I may sound stupid here, but at least maybe I'll be smarter than the guy who didn't ask! :1zhelp:

p.s. I know thermogenics are used as a source for losing weight, but in a bulking state can it be useful?
Thermogenics usually rely on low-insulin states to be effective, which is why they are not so much used during bulking.
 
EasyEJL

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it can, you should look into "g-flux" training for more info.
 
Liquid13

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it can, you should look into "g-flux" training for more info.
Thanks for the info I'll definitely look into that. I need to go to class at the moment, so if anyone can tell me if "g-flux" is efficient I'd appreciate it and I'll research more closely when I get home!
 

t-bone2

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...would a thermogenic help you eat more by creating hunger?
Not really. Is eating more your primary goal, but you lack the appetite?

Also can you eat slightly worse w/o too much more fat accumulation while on a thermogenic?
No. But you'd need to quantify what you mean by both "slightly worse" and "too much more."

And finally... will nutrients be absorbed quicker allowing for more *uh hem* protein or what not to be absorbed over a period of time???
You need to repharase this one. Don't understand "absorbed quicker" vs. "absorbed over a period of time."

And forget G-flux. There is really any lack of scientific evidence that supports the partitioning effects of it.
 
Liquid13

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Well my thread wasn't pertaining to me as much as just a question for an answer I'd love to have. I read a lot of threads and this idea popped in my little brain! As far as the "slightly worse" and "too much more" issue.... if I tried to explain we'd go in circles based on how you replied (a bit nit picky when my question is pretty simple in lamest terms). Don't think too hard, it is just a simple yes or no... If I explained why, again it would take a long time for me to go into specifics over internet. Lastly I guess I can see how you were confused by my phrasing. What I meant was; will nutrients taken in be absorbed quicker, allowing for more nutrients to be consumed and absorb in a shorter amount of time? Still doesn't sound right ugh lol. ummm.. You drink a protein shake worth 60g protein... say your body only absorbs 40g.. now lets throw in a thermogenic. Can another shake be taken sooner and reap the protein benefits?
 
Liquid13

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And now I'm off to play a soccer game, so the g-flux is still on hold... any more thoughts on it?
 
Liquid13

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That was a very interesting read. Sounds plausible, but in order to gain weight without excessive fat gain and increasing calories, one would need to do lots and lots of cardio. 80% of it seems common knowledge, while 20% seems kinda experimental. Not to mention the food bill would be tremendous for that plan over just increasing maintenance 500 a day. I love the science behind nutrition and health! Feed me more!!!
 
EasyEJL

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yeah, I dunno how well it really works, but conceptually its interesting and believable. a heightened metabolic level with faster turnover gives more opportunity for growth as well
 

t-bone2

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I don't know who's G-Flux stuff you read, but the following studies are the ones often cited as "scientific proof" of the effects of it. But it just doesn't seem to add up that well.

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J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2004 Jul;89(7):3573-8

High energy flux mediates the tonically augmented beta-adrenergic support of resting metabolic rate in habitually exercising older adults.
Bell C, Day DS, Jones PP, Christou DD, Petitt DS, Osterberg K, Melby CL, Seals DR.
Department of Integrative Physiology, 354UCB, University of Colorado, Boulder, CO 80309-0354, USA. [email protected]

The sympathetic nervous system contributes to resting metabolic rate (RMR) via beta-adrenergic receptor (beta-AR) stimulation of energy metabolism. RMR and beta-AR support of RMR are greater in habitually exercising compared with sedentary older adults possibly due to greater energy flux (magnitude of energy intake and energy expenditure during energy balance). In 10 older adults regularly performing aerobic endurance exercise (mean +/- se, 66 +/- 1 yr) compared with baseline, a reduction in energy flux (via abstention of exercise and proportional reduction in dietary intake) decreased (P < 0.05) energy expenditure (7746 +/- 440 vs. 9630 +/- 662 kJ.d(-1)), caloric intake (7808 +/- 431 vs. 9433 +/- 528 kJ.d(-1)), RMR (5192 +/- 167 vs. 5401 +/- 209 kJ.d(-1)), and skeletal muscle sympathetic nervous system activity (36 +/- 2 vs. 42 +/- 2 bursts.min(-1)). Significant beta-AR support of RMR was observed at baseline (167 +/- 42 kJ.d(-1)) but not during reduced energy flux. The change in RMR from baseline to reduced energy flux was related to the corresponding change in beta-AR support of RMR (r = 0.77, P = 0.009). No changes were observed in seven time controls (69 +/- 3 yr) who maintained energy flux. High energy flux is a key mechanism contributing to the elevated RMR and beta-AR support of RMR in habitually exercising older adults. Maintenance of high energy flux via regular exercise may be an effective strategy for maintaining energy expenditure and preventing age-associated obesity.

I would say a pretty weak corrolation here for someone who is already regularly exercising and understands their requirements for energy balance.

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Am J Clin Nutr. 1995 Mar;61(3):473-81

Interaction of acute changes in exercise energy expenditure and energy intake on resting metabolic rate.
Bullough RC, Gillette CA, Harris MA, Melby CL.
Department of Food Science and Human Nutrition, Colorado State University, Fort Collins 80523.

The effects on resting metabolic rate (RMR) of energy intake and exercise energy expenditure were examined in eight trained men under four conditions: 1) high energy flux (HF), 90 min of exercise at 75% VO2max on 3 d while in energy balance; 2) low energy flux (LF), no exercise for 3 d while in energy balance; 3) negative energy balance (NEB), exercise on 3 d while consuming low-flux meals; and 4) positive energy balance (PEB), no exercise for 2 d while consuming high-flux meals. Eight untrained men were studied in LF. There were effects of exercise energy expenditure and energy intake on RMR, and an exercise x diet interaction (P < 0.05). RMR was greater in trained than in untrained subjects only when trained subjects were in HF. These data indicate that RMR is influenced by exercise, energy intake, and their interaction and suggest that higher RMR in trained vs untrained individuals results from acute effects of HF rather than from a chronic adaptation to exercise training.

This study cites high energy flux, but says the subjects were in "energy balance." So, where's the g-flux...?
 

stefang

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Well my thread wasn't pertaining to me as much as just a question for an answer I'd love to have. I read a lot of threads and this idea popped in my little brain! As far as the "slightly worse" and "too much more" issue.... if I tried to explain we'd go in circles based on how you replied (a bit nit picky when my question is pretty simple in lamest terms). Don't think too hard, it is just a simple yes or no... If I explained why, again it would take a long time for me to go into specifics over internet. Lastly I guess I can see how you were confused by my phrasing. What I meant was; will nutrients taken in be absorbed quicker, allowing for more nutrients to be consumed and absorb in a shorter amount of time? Still doesn't sound right ugh lol. ummm.. You drink a protein shake worth 60g protein... say your body only absorbs 40g.. now lets throw in a thermogenic. Can another shake be taken sooner and reap the protein benefits?
Your body can absorbed only so much protein...Thermogenics will not increase protein sysnthesis. To gain most lean muscle do the following:

A. Eat 6-7 meals a day
B. Whey protein first thing in the morning, pre & post workout
C. Casein pre bed (cottage cheese) & possibly some in your post workout shake
D. High GI carbs post workout >> will increase insulin >> increases protein synthesis >> exercise combined with high insulin spike after the workout can increase protein synthesis by almost 400%.
E.Decrease the amount of cardio you do outside of soccer

Here are some rules to maximize test naturally:

I. Morning training >> test levels are at their peak
II. Rest between sets >> 3 min approximately
III. Rest between workouts >> workout every other day
IV. Lift heavy, and use compound exercises >> squats, bench presses, dead lift (body releases more messengers to release more test & other hormones)

V. Do not exhaust individual bodyparts fully >> more cortisol can reduce test
VI. Eat red meat >> beef, poultry, fish
VII. Get enough zinc
VIII. Healthy fats help test as well >> fish, flax, olive oil...
IX. 2:1 ratio of carbs to protein >> higher T levels
X. Limit alcohol >> alcohol can increases conversion of Test to estrogen
 
EasyEJL

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D. High GI carbs post workout >> will increase insulin >> increases protein synthesis >> exercise combined with high insulin spike after the workout can increase protein synthesis by almost 400%.
the only evidence of this ever was non-resistance trained men doing fasted workouts in the morning, and the group that had protein plus carbs had higher protein synthesis. Its never been duplicated with non-fasted workouts.
 

t-bone2

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the only evidence of this ever was non-resistance trained men doing fasted workouts in the morning, and the group that had protein plus carbs had higher protein synthesis. Its never been duplicated with non-fasted workouts.
Yeah, unfortunately stefang is confusing BB lore with science.

A. Eat 6-7 meals a day
Ever seen anyone who understands how Intermittend Fasting works? There are people have have solid success on that program who are eating *way* fewer than 6-7 meals/d. Point is, there are a lot of ways to slice this one.

B. Whey protein first thing in the morning, pre & post workout
Just get a protein source! It doesn't have to be whey. The Biological Value (or whatever other measure that you want to use for protein quality) isn't as importatnt as supplement companies would lead you to believe.

C. Casein pre bed (cottage cheese) & possibly some in your post workout shake
Total protien intake during the waking hours is paramount. Spacing every couple of hours, certain protiens at different times (breakfast, Pre- & PWO, bedtime, etc), blah, blah, blah. You obvioulsy want to choose sources that has a sufficient BCAA profile, but there are plenty of choices. At the end of the day, make sure that you've hit the target goal in grams.

D. High GI carbs post workout >> will increase insulin >> increases protein synthesis >> exercise combined with high insulin spike after the workout can increase protein synthesis by almost 400%.
EasyEJL already addressed this one.
 
Liquid13

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Thanks for all the responses guys! Seems like science has a lot of catching up to do.
 

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