bedtime proteinshake/meal myth

vinny32

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like to start by saying hello and i am new here. think this will be a good place to share my knowledge and hopefully learn a few things. My first question in concerning that overnight bedtime protein shake. supposedly drinking a protein shake(more casein slow burn) before you go to bed is suppose to help increase muscle and strength generally they say at nightime are body goes into an anabolic state where it does repairs on tissue. thus more protein available then over time enhanced gains. well to all of you who has tried this do you think in general it is beneficial or would it just cause bad weight gain overtime:bb3:
 
babywifey

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My husband has either casein or milk protein isolate every night before going to bed- he has for years. Right now he is at approx. 230 lb, 7% body fat (he's 6'4"). Any kind of protein that is slow digesting is good to eat before going to sleep. Casein, MPI, cottage cheese are all great. Pairing them with some healthy fat is good too, it will help the digestion of the protein. :thumbsup:
 
Resolve

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You have it on a regular basis too babe, and you're showing great progress! Good post BTW

But yeah, having a pre-bed, slow digesting snack is great - you're asleep a long time and you're metabolism doesn't slow that much, so you should have something to tide you over.
 
Chub

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I have a casein shake before bed most nights. I feel great when i get up in the morning :)
 
Rick28

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A shake before bed is one of the best things you can do for muscle gain or fat loss.
 
bolt10

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Shake before bed is highly over appreciated. It is good and some don't like eating before bed so thats fine but it is no more beneficial than a whole food meal. I also believe the whole "eat something so that you o no don't go catabolic" when you sleep is dumb as well.
 
SilentBob187

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Shake before bed is highly over appreciated. It is good and some don't like eating before bed so thats fine but it is no more beneficial than a whole food meal. I also believe the whole "eat something so that you o no don't go catabolic" when you sleep is dumb as well.
Agreed. It'd rather my body focus on hormone production and rest than digestion. Just my 2 cents.
 
stormecho

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I always get a kick out of people that time food intake, I wish I had that luxury. It's a pain in the azz just to get calories in. I do actually take protein before bed, but it's just because I have no other time to do it.

I stuff myself all day long, it's a major chore. I wish they would invent a pill that is 4000 calories with the right carb/fat/protein split.

Anyway, I do think it's a good idea before bed. I feel a bit less taxed when I wake up in the AM...that might be BS though.
 
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vinny32

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Shake before bed is highly over appreciated. It is good and some don't like eating before bed so thats fine but it is no more beneficial than a whole food meal. I also believe the whole "eat something so that you o no don't go catabolic" when you sleep is dumb as well.
any documentation or readings to back this up or is it personal opinion
 
JOHNJESSICA20

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I know drinking a shake before bed worked great for me during my last bulking cycle. It was the only thing I changed at that time so the benefits was real because weight started to really climb with in a few weeks.
 
bolt10

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any documentation or readings to back this up or is it personal opinion
personal opinion...but is there any documentation that drinking a shake with casein does anything special?
 
Rick28

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Remember though..when you're not eating for 8 hours stress hormones (epinephrine anf glucagon) will be higher due to low blood sugar. Stress hormones does attack muscle tissue so a shake before bed is better than nothing at all.
 

Omen

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I take ZMA before bed....and calcium inhibits absorption of Zinc, so no food before bed for me........Sleep is really improved with ZMA
 
suncloud

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i definitely felt better when i could afford casein before bed. i'd wake up ready to rock - actually jumped out of bed for the couple weeks i did it. and your body grows primarily at night - why not take protein at that time? to me that would be like saying "psaw, i don't need that 30 minute post workout window, i'll just get some fries instead..."
 
MrBrightside

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It's not really a "myth", as casein is proven to be slower digesting, and thus helps against catabolism, but I think casein shakes are just a dumb idea and a waste of money. Drink some milk, it's 80% casein.

Sidenote: I drink my final protein shake right before bed with 2 cups milk and 1 scoop of whey protein (26g protein), sometimes with some grape nuts and reduced fat peanut butter thrown in.
 
Rick28

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i definitely felt better when i could afford casein before bed. i'd wake up ready to rock - actually jumped out of bed for the couple weeks i did it. and your body grows primarily at night - why not take protein at that time? to me that would be like saying "psaw, i don't need that 30 minute post workout window, i'll just get some fries instead..."
I agree
 
Rick28

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It's not really a "myth", as casein is proven to be slower digesting, and thus helps against catabolism, but I think casein shakes are just a dumb idea and a waste of money. Drink some milk, it's 80% casein.

Sidenote: I drink my final protein shake right before bed with 2 cups milk and 1 scoop of whey protein (26g protein), sometimes with some grape nuts and reduced fat peanut butter thrown in.

I fully agree:thumbsup:
 
Steveoph

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I take ZMA before bed....and calcium inhibits absorption of Zinc, so no food before bed for me........Sleep is really improved with ZMA
As a suggestion, take your ZMA 30-45 minutes pre-bed, then have your casein shake/cottage cheese right before bed. Gives the ZMA time to absorb properly and minimizes the calcium interference.
 
Rick28

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As a suggestion, take your ZMA 30-45 minutes pre-bed, then have your casein shake/cottage cheese right before bed. Gives the ZMA time to absorb properly and minimizes the calcium interference.

Thanks, I'll try this too.
 
Disturbed

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I blend a half cup of cottage cheese,a cup of calorie countdown chocalate milk and i teaspoon of PB.I only add the PB if i'm bulking.
 
Chub

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thats me just done a Casein shake with 48g of protein,200 cals and 1g fat/carbs plus the pint of milk before i go to bed. Feel great when i wake up :)
 
planetfuzz

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Agreed. It'd rather my body focus on hormone production and rest than digestion. Just my 2 cents.
Totally agree. I used to ALWAYS eat a casein shake before bed. I would wake up not hungry and not rested. I can eat more calories during the day when I don't eat before bed. I just eat a whole food meal an hour or so before bed and I sleep better and I wake up with a better appetite. I learned a lot about this from other forums on here on this topic. A full nights sleep is anything but catabolic. Sleep is for resting,not digesting. That's what works for me but I know everybody is different.
 

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Does anyone have cottage and some nuts before bed? When I cut I just have cottage cheese but now I started a bulk so I wanted to have some nuts at night... Should I just stay with the cottage cheese?
 
Manimalia

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Does anyone have cottage and some nuts before bed? When I cut I just have cottage cheese but now I started a bulk so I wanted to have some nuts at night... Should I just stay with the cottage cheese?
i'd do 2 eggs w/ 1 white and a serving of pb. (the egg white helps complete the protein of the pb).
 

hardknock

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Totally agree. I used to ALWAYS eat a casein shake before bed. I would wake up not hungry and not rested. I can eat more calories during the day when I don't eat before bed. I just eat a whole food meal an hour or so before bed and I sleep better and I wake up with a better appetite. I learned a lot about this from other forums on here on this topic. A full nights sleep is anything but catabolic. Sleep is for resting,not digesting. That's what works for me but I know everybody is different.
Sometimes on nights before the days that I am off of work or going in to work late, i go to bed late and sleep for 10-11 hours, so there is NO WAY I could not eat something before going to bed on those nights (3 times a week, normally) ... there's no evidence that your body's ability for hormone production or rest is inhibited by digestion (at rest/sleep), especially when your doing nothing but at rest during the night...remember, this is not during the day when your doing activities, stress, and exercise.

This is what I can attest to:
Nothing before bed except water and a banana...= no weight gain for me for 5 str8 weeks

One cup of milk, 2 slices wheat bread, 2 tb omega3 peanut butter, one scoop protein powder, one half chicken breast for 5 str8 weeks = nice solid weight gain

Over time i started to see the difference in both body composition and feeling upon awakening. This, of course, is not for everybody, but it worked for me tremendously.
 

hardknock

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Oh yeah, after 5 weeks, i did not have excessive weight gain. My LBM actually went up.
 

TruffleShuffle

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It seems like everytime someone asks what i would assume is a simple question on here, suddenly theres about 3-4 different opinions!

It would seem we (people in general) still know very little regarding our bodies and how they work, surely if we knew then there would be definitive do's and donts for this sort of thing?
 
MacTech

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Does anyone have cottage and some nuts before bed? When I cut I just have cottage cheese but now I started a bulk so I wanted to have some nuts at night... Should I just stay with the cottage cheese?
I have cottage cheese and some almonds every night. Not too much however.
 
dsade

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It's not really a "myth", as casein is proven to be slower digesting, and thus helps against catabolism, but I think casein shakes are just a dumb idea and a waste of money. Drink some milk, it's 80% casein.
It's also loaded with sugar.
 
suncloud

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sugar = carbs = lower growth hormone response. your growth hormone cycles three times in a 24 hr period, with the largest response 1 hour after bed. any carbs taken within 2 hours of that will blunt that response. if you have to eat, do chicken cooked in olive oil. or stick with casein.
 

Nacho1545

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I have cottage cheese and some almonds every night. Not too much however.
My only problem is that nuts are my weakness... I end up having way too much.. I have almonds, walnuts and peanut butter.. Then sometimes I will have some honey mixed with the nuts... I saw some GREAT gains by adding this at night :bb3:

but I also saw some fat gain...
 

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After switching from cottage cheese to casein shakes before bed I've seen great results and improvement. I also take in some natty PB.

I'm not going to argue with the guys that don't think it's necessary, but I definitely think that you're better off taking in protein before bed; however, sometimes I don't go to bed for 2-3 hours after taking in my shake. That way, it only digests for another three hours or so and you get your hormone production kicking as well. Seems good to me.
 
planetfuzz

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I always eat something like a salmon filet,some veggies,glass of milk,some beans,and some walnuts. I eat it about an hour and a half before bed. I personally fall asleep a lot faster if I haven't just eaten. I have defiantly been making gains. I really think this is one of those things that it works different for everybody.
 

iDShaDoW

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sugar = carbs = lower growth hormone response. your growth hormone cycles three times in a 24 hr period, with the largest response 1 hour after bed. any carbs taken within 2 hours of that will blunt that response. if you have to eat, do chicken cooked in olive oil. or stick with casein.
So let's say I'm at school all afternoon and evening... and then I work out at 8PM or 9PM...

It's bad that I'm taking shake post workout that's milk, protein powder, oatmeal, an egg, a spoon of pb, and some olive oil and then passing out a couple hours later?

Am I better off just using like water and protein powder?
 
suncloud

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So let's say I'm at school all afternoon and evening... and then I work out at 8PM or 9PM...

It's bad that I'm taking shake post workout that's milk, protein powder, oatmeal, an egg, a spoon of pb, and some olive oil and then passing out a couple hours later?

Am I better off just using like water and protein powder?
eek. thats a hard call. pre workout is very important, so carbs and protein would be a good choice. post workout (since you're going to bed so soon after) i'd mix it with water, an egg, PB and olive oil. mono fats won't hurt you in the least, and the cholesterol is the same. just carbs that close to bed are something to watch out for, but 10g of it won't mess you up. if you try to get 50g of protein in by drinking milk, then you're in trouble with the carbs - 75 grams of it. if you get out of the gym at 9, and stay up 2 hours after, it really doesn't matter if you carb up or not though.
 

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I see, yeah, I don't pass out immediately after I drink the shake. I probably go to sleep a couple hours later and have trouble falling asleep right away anyway.

I don't really drink milk like some of the people on here (like half a gallon or a gallon a day) for protein. I just figured it's more calories in my shake than just water even though a water based shake goes down easier for me.
 

bigwhiteguy29

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So annoying about dairy and ZMA. I think protien is a little more important because I am young and dont gain weight easy but I really like the idea of the ZMA before then the shake right before bed. I am just going to take a small one. 8 ounches of milk and 1 scoops muscle milk is enough! I guess this will make me wanna go buy ZMA again.

Also my dad is 58 and swims and goes on long (3 hour) walks should I have him take this?
 

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Milk is low glycemic, not much to worry about
Yeah, but is high on the insulin index scale...which means it causes a large insulin response despite its low GI.

Milk and most other dairy products take a large amount of insulin to move the nutrients out of the blood stream.
 
MacTech

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Also my dad is 58 and swims and goes on long (3 hour) walks should I have him take this?
Yes, it will certainly not hurt to take it and if he is deficient can go a long ways to improving his condition.

I religiously take ZMA about an hour before bed.

Oh, and cut the milk down from the 8oz to just enough to mix your protein in. I use about 3oz just for the reasons mentioned and reducing carb intake.
 

Nacho1545

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Oh, and cut the milk down from the 8oz to just enough to mix your protein in. I use about 3oz just for the reasons mentioned and reducing carb intake.
Why not just mix it in water?? Thats what I do and its tastes just fine... Designer whey tastes like choc milk when you mix it with water..
 
Rick28

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Yeah, but is high on the insulin index scale...which means it causes a large insulin response despite its low GI.

Milk and most other dairy products take a large amount of insulin to move the nutrients out of the blood stream.

Can you prove this because I was under the assumption that low glycemic foods create a small insulin/blood sugar response.
 
planetfuzz

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I wish somebody would be a controlled study that monitored the GH production of an individual who drank milk and casein to an person who hasn't eating anything...or something similar.
 
Rick28

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I wish somebody would be a controlled study that monitored the GH production of an individual who drank milk and casein to an person who hasn't eating anything...or something similar.

I know that studies do show that no meal eaten for 3+ hours are a sure way to have low blood sugar which in turn results in the release of stress hormones which leads to muscle catabolism. A low glycemic meal will increase IGF 1 levels though.
 
planetfuzz

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I know that studies do show that no meal eaten for 3+ hours are a sure way to have low blood sugar which in turn results in the release of stress hormones which leads to muscle catabolism. A low glycemic meal will increase IGF 1 levels though.
Yeah but that is during the day. A full nights sleep is not catabolic.
 
MacTech

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Why not just mix it in water?? Thats what I do and its tastes just fine... Designer whey tastes like choc milk when you mix it with water..
Because I don't like the taste of it in water, I use skim milk. Optimum Nutrition is good stuff, but I can't stomach it in water 2 -3 times a day when bulking. I will only if there is no milk. I can handle a couple grams of carbs in this instance.
 

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Can you prove this because I was under the assumption that low glycemic foods create a small insulin/blood sugar response.
google it buddy. the info is there. The GI is a measure of how quickly the nutrient is removed from you blood stream, which usually is correlated with the insulin response. But not with milk
 

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WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE INSULIN INDEX AND THE GLYCAEMIC INDEX

What is the difference then between the insulin index and the glycaemic index?
If you think we've made a mistake and that what we really mean is the glycaemic index, you're wrong. We do mean the insulin index. Never heard of it? You're not alone. Insulin Indices are only really begining to be fully understood now and the popularity amongst the athletic world is taking it by storm. Although insulin indices are not new, they've been ignored in health and fitness for far too long.

So what is the difference between the two ratings for foods - glycaemic and insulin? Well, the popular glycaemic index is a measure of the speed at which carbohydrates enter the blood after a meal. A high-glycemic index means that blood sugar rises rapidly in response to a meal, while a low-glycaemic index means that blood sugar rises very slowly. Traditionally, nutritionists thought that the faster the carbs got into the blood, the bigger the insulin response. So in an attempt to manage insulin, they recommended always eating low-glycaemic foods. There was some rational thinking and logic behind this assumption - however these general guideline rules have actually since been proven far from the truth.

What has been discovered by several studies since, have shown that some low glycaemic index foods have huge insulin responses! So the correlation between glycaemic index and insulin response breaks down with some foods. For example, milk products have a very low glycaemic index. But they promote insulin responses parallel to the highest glycaemic foods. So just as this food has a slow influx of glucose into the blood stream - the stimulatory response of insulin is high and rapid. So what's the deal? Well, it appears that there are several other factors that determine insulin release besides carb content and the rate of carb absorption.

This is why the insulin index was generated. This index actually measures insulin response to a food. So rather than assuming insulin response is correlated with carb absorption, these researchers decided to go ahead and measure it. And their results were eye opening!

We have to realize that we use the insulin index not to condemn foods but to decide when to eat them. The point that must be stressed is that the insulin index helps us add information to the glycaemic index to make better food choices. So using both indices is the way to go. It is not that one index is better or more correct than an other index. Since milk products have a low GI but a high II, these foods aren't optimal when you want to keep insulin low. Other example foods or meal combinations for this situation are baked beans in sauce, meals with refined sugars and fats, and meals that are protein and carbohydrate rich. Each of these foods/combos have low GI scores but high II scores, none of which are optimal for low insulin times. But remember, some times you want high insulin so don't relegate these foods/combos to a dark corner of your nutritional closet. Insulin can be as much an ally as an enemy when it comes to building muscle and burning bodyfat.

Conversely, unprocessed fibrous grains and cereals as well as fruits and veggies are great on both scales. In addition, most low-fat protein sources are also great on both scales.

Studies by Holt et al (1996) and Ostman et al (2001) highlighted some of these differences between glycaemia and insulinemia. Interestingly, while the glycaemic and insulin indices of many foods were similar, some foods caused unpredicted responses. Foods like yogurt and milk had relatively low-glycaemic indices, but very high insulin indices. White and brown rice, on the other hand, had high-glycemic indices, but low insulin indices. The point here is that if you want to effectively manage body composition, you should choose your carbohydrates based on both the glycaemic and insulin indices. Unfortunately, there are only limited amounts of insulin data out there, leading us to continue to rely in some cases only on the glycaemic index.

For example, whole wheat bread measures approximately 60 on the GI, but what do you think would happen if you ate five or six slices with every meal? Just because it's relatively low as far as carb GI rankings are concerned, it doesn't mean you can eat all you want and not cause your insulin to go into overdrive in production. You have to not only consider the GI ranking, but also you need to keep in mind the total carbohydrate volume you ingest. It is important to note how GI scales were developed and the fact that only 50g of the Carbohydrate source consumed in the testing. This example illustrates why we need not only the GI but also the II.

Used together, the GI and II indices can help you plan meals according to your needs (i.e. high or low insulin release). For instance, if you're trying to get lean you'll want to keep insulin at bay most of the day except immediately after training when you want to spike it through the roof to shuttle glycogen and protein back into your starved muscles. Maintaining steady and stable low insulin levels always the process of fat burning to take place. As soon as insulin levels rise, fat burning grinds to a halt.

In this scenario you'd eat a combination of low GI and II foods throughout the day. If, on the other hand, you're trying to bulk up and gain quality muscle, you'll no doubt want to spike insulin several times throughout the day along with a generous helping of protein. Shuttling amino acids into muscle cells.

Just how many grams of carbs you need a day for optimum performance is a debate that most likely will never be settled. It's largely a matter of individuality. You should plan your needs around the inbuilt nutrition calculator and fine tune the requirements based upon your metabolic and body type.

As discussed in other sections of the website you will be familiar with the principles of energy balance (calories in vs calories out), meal combinations (the types of food you in and what you eat in relation to other foods you eat at any given time) and you will know a little about individual physiological responses to the foods that you eat (your metabolic insulin sensitivity and carb and fat tolerances.).

Anybody who has trouble gaining muscle or losing fat can stop blaming their genetics or their poor metabolism if only they understood and made proper use of the insulin index and glycaemic index of food. Going stages further you can learn your individualised metabolic type and body type and really get to grips with the way that your body handles and processes foods.



....

i saw a paper somewhere that had the score listed compared to white bread (100). I'll see if I can find it
 

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