Carbs & Waters
- 07-08-2009, 08:02 PM
Carbs & Waters
Prep ideas from two guys that I follow.
Here are some of my thoughts on water. I think there are 3 main componants to the last week of contest. Water, Carbing, and electrolyte balance. Thought I would post something on water first and go from there. I won't claim to know it all but the stuff I know Ill always back up with logic and scientific info.
Gradually reducing water over 3 days to me is a big myth. The problem with this is that although your reducing water your also carb loading(Another misstake). This is a major problem in that those carbs have a 3:1 ratio of attracting water and will cause major subq water. On top of that by taking diuretics on the day before contest your trying to fight what you have been doing over the last days. You end up pulling water from the muscle and get a flatter less vascular look and still hold subq water. Also by gradually decreasing your water your body goes into its mode of trying to maintain homeostasis. This means the body is trying to hang on to water within the body. NOT WHAT WE WANT.
So how do we counteract all of this.
First we need to make use of the fact that the body will try to maintain homeostasis. If by limiting water the body hangs onto it then by increasing water it will let go of it. We do this by increasing water consumption drastically all the way to the day or day and a half before contest. Upwards of 4 gallons should be taken in. Our goal is to lower the antidiuretic hormone which is what causes the body to hang onto water. However we also need to manipulate some minerals as well. To lower ADH levels Water needs to be increased along with sodium and potassium needs to be somewhat decreased. So along with taking in around 4 gallons of water one should be taking in 1500mg-2g of sodium, along with a tab of dyazide broken up throughout the day to lower potassium levels. This is where the aldactone is brought in as well due to it being an ADH blocker. By doing this the body will literally be a fountain, yes youll be pissing all the time but that is the goal. We keep everything like this till we decide to cut water then we stop everything, except the aldactone. Say on friday, your body is still in the mode to excrete so it does just that and you will be able to take off much of the water through that method alone, however lasix can be supplemented to help with the process.
I know this is a lot but read it over and give me any questions, comments, or so on. Once we get an understanding of this I have a schedule to follow. NOW, I am not saying that follow everthing to a tee and youll be perfect. So what I do is come up with a schedule, then about 5 weeks out we do a test run to see how your body reacts and make adjustments based on this. Allright let me know what you think and well go from there. PEACE
ALDOSTERONE-- Aldosterone acts on the kidney promoting the reabsorption of sodium ions (Na+) into the blood. Water follows the salt and this helps maintain normal blood pressure.
The secretion of aldosterone is stimulated by:
• a drop in the level of sodium ions in the blood
• a rise in the level of potassium ions in the blood
The secretion of Aldosterone could be depressed by high levels of sodium and low levels of potassium in the blood
A deficiency of ADH or severe lowering of the hormone
• inheritance of mutant genes for its receptor <../K/Kidney.html>
leads to excessive loss of urine, a condition known as diabetes insipidus. The most severely-afflicted patients may urinate as much as 30 liters (almost 8 gallons!) of urine each day. The disease is accompanied by terrible thirst, and patients must continually drink water to avoid dangerous dehydration.
The release of ADH (from the posterior lobe of the pituitary gland <../P/Pituitary.html>) is regulated by the osmotic pressure of the blood.
• Anything that dehydrates(diuretics) the body, such as perspiring heavily,
• increases the osmotic pressure of the blood
• turns on the ADH -> V2 receptors -> aquaporin pathway.
• As little as 0.5 liter/day of urine may remain of the original 180 liters/day of nephric filtrate.
• The concentration of salts in the urine can be as much as four times that of the blood. (But not high enough to enable humans to benefit from drinking sea water, which is saltier still.)
• If the blood should become too dilute (as would occur after drinking a large amount of water),
ADH secretion is inhibited and lower ADH leads leads to excessive loss of urine, a condition known as diabetes insipidus. The most severely-afflicted patients may urinate as much as 30 liters (almost 8 gallons!) of urine each day. The disease is accompanied by terrible thirst, and patients must continually drink water to avoid dangerous dehydration.
A large volume of watery urine is formed (with a salt concentration as little as one-fourth of that of the blood).
Note-In 24 hours the kidneys reclaim
• ~1,300 g of NaCl
• ~400 g NaHCO3
• ~180 g glucose
• almost all of the180 liters of water that entered the tubules.
• By taking in large amounts of water one can lower ADH levels and cause the body to release large amounts of water. Aldosterone levels can be lowerd meaning by taking in a higher amount of sodium and lowering potassium levels which will cause less sodium retention in the blood and hence less water retention.
• 1)Increase Sodium levels dramatically,
• 2)Decrease Potassium levels
• 3)Dramatically increase water intake to over 3 gallons so as to inhibit ADH and cause the body to release water. With aldosterone levels low the body will have a greater tendancy to allow water to be released since the reuptake of sodium is low and excretion of water is high.
• Sunday Possibly-Monday-Tuesday-Wed
Starting friday water is kept at 2 gallons then Sunday or Monday pumped to 3.5 to 4 gallons of every day starting so as to decrease ADH levels which will cause the body to release water. At the same time high levels of Sodium should be introduced(1500mg or more depending on body wt.) and potassium restricted so as to lower Aldosterone levels . There should be no need to worry about the high sodium levels causing water retention as the body will be in a flushing state. One could possibly use a diuretic at the begining of the water load to establish a low potassium base as well as use aldacotone along the way to keep aldosterone levels low however I think this would work so well one might not need it. During this time low potassium vegatables would need to be used during carb depletion. On Wed or Thur depending on how one reacts water can be restricted to 6oz per meal, sodium should now be limited. Thursday potassium could be reintroduced into the body to prevent cramping without the worry of over compensation and a washed out look as with might happen when trying to restore potassium with a heavy potassium secreting diuretic. As with the carb depleting the carb loading phase should limit carbohydrates high in potassium so as to keep the aldosterone levels in check. I would surmise that if all is timed right one should be able to lose a large amount of water wed or thur through friday night without the use of any diuretic. Depending on where one is friday night a diuretic could be used to rid the body of that last bit of water. However this is where it is very important to replenish sodium. People are very afraid of salt, however they don't realize that by manipulating salt intake at the right time they can cause their muscle fullness and vascularity to blow through the roof. Again another topic for another thread. Also, I know there those out there that throw in aldactone leading up to contest,, although I don't see anything wrong with it as aldactone is an ADH blocker,, the people I have worked with didn't need to use it, but I don't see it as hurting anything.
Aldosterone is more directly related to fluid VOLUME not the amount of fluid in the body....When the body detects that there is not enough blood volume aldosterone is secreted which then causes sodium to be recirculated throughout the body in order to increase blood plasma volume.... When you Severely increase sodium blood volume increases VIA WATER and the opposite happens... So first aldosterone is not going be raised during fluid and sodium loading it WILL BE LOWERED which means that instead of recirculating sodium the body will attempt to get rid of it and with sodium water follows.... Now to answer your question,, typically the body will continue to excrete sodium for a period of 12-20hrs I have found with people before it starts homeostasis or normalizing out.... This is why I have people stop their sodium and water Thursday afternoon to late evening,, let them piss off what they can naturally till friday afternoon and if need be supplement with a diuretic... Hope this makes it a bit more clear....
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>From the mind of the legendary Zilla:
don't bother with lasix unless you want to:
1. lose the show looking flat and fat
2. risk a heart attack when your potassium gets outta whack\
3. have a "rebound" effect that will make you look similar to the Pillsbury Doughboy
Mr. Jonny-O has it correct.
Aldactone 50mg for the last week.
Dyazide 50-100mg for the last day or two.
And don't forget to ****Load ---> work wonders [IMG]file:///C:/DOCUME~1/ADMINI~1/LOCALS~1/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.gif[/IMG]
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Thought I would add another topic to this discussion. Feel free to chime in or disagree. I am basing this off of what many people have always followed as the base carb depleting and loading method. Something that I unfortunately followed when I competed because as with most, it was what was shown to me by someone who competed. Let me premise this with first enlightening people where the whole ideology came of needing to carb deplete for 3 days then load for the same amount of time. During the cold war Russian Sports Scientists came up with this method based on studies with their athletes. However more recent study has shown that although this method worked to an extent it is less efficient then the current "speed loading" most athletes use,, except bodybuilders that is because many are stuck in the old ways as well as are following what they were told by a guy who was told by a guy and so on. So without further adue, here goes.
Myth-Carb depleting for 3 days then loading will help the body to super compensate and store glycogen more efficiently.
Truth- In all actuality it is not depleting carbs that causes the body to super compensate but rather the sudden increase of carbs that is the cause of extra glycogen storage. Lets say your at 200 grams of carbs per day and over the next 16 hrs you increase your carb intake to 600grams. The body doesn't immediately store these extra carbs as fat but rather shoves them into the muscle. Yes, if you were to keep at an increased rate of carb intake the body would eventually start to store it as body fat, however the body works in a more reactive way, or homeostasis as many are familiar with. Therefore the body stores carbs where there is room, the muscle which can be thought of as an elastic container that expands as things are put into it. Basically that the reason so many people go flat, end up smooth, or can't get rid of water is because they have carbed up to much using a very outdated methodology.
Myth-It takes 3 days to carb the body up.
Truth- The body can be fully carbed within 16-24 hrs. The whole idea that it takes 3 days to carb the body is again based on old theory. Plus if you think about all the insulin mimickers as well as actual insulin being used the carb up process can be attained much faster. Now before anyone freaks out and says "hey I found a flaw in his theory and this guy is insane because anyone who knows anything knows using insulin will cause water retention" STOP.. I have a whole lot more to cover not only in this but in other topics. Anyway the point is, once again I believe people come into a show soft, flat, and water logged because they are over carbed.
As many know the muscle volume you see on stage is due to Glycogen storage and carbs pull water into the muscle. So explain this to me. Why do most people gradually DEPLETE water while at the same time try to FILL the muscle full of carbs? Does this make any sense to anyone? Its like trying to Push and Pull at the same time.
Here is the most common scenario that is played out. People deplete carbs starting a week out then as they get close to the show they begin dropping water, usually at 3 gallon Wed, 2 gallon Thur, and 1 gallon to sipping Friday then hit their diuretic. They usually look somewhat full but are fighting to keep it by Saturday morning along with their vascularity which has nothing to do with carbs but is rather a sodium issue which Ill get into another time. How many times have you heard someone say they looked good but they just didn’t have that fullness and vascularity they had 2 weeks out. But rather than changing things up they keep going with the same method with the odds against them hoping that it will just time right. Now before I get reamed let me say that yes I have seen the standard method of water and carbing work, HOWEVER I guarantee you that more times than not it will not work and will NEVER work as good as following the body’s natural guidelines. So what other option is there??? Well lets look at what we want. We want the Sub Q water to be as limited as possible, we want muscles to be full of glycogen and some water, and we want crazy vascularity. This is where it takes that whole idea of breaking away from the norm and going against what we have always heard. So a brief overview of what I have people do consists of first depleting the body of carbs pretty much the standard way and increasing protein throughout the week to increase diuresis. And instead of starting water depletion on wed I have them take in full water all the way through Friday to get the body in a “flushing” state. Sometimes I have them use a diuretic however I have found that it is not always needed. So Friday night comes, the person is fully depleted of carbs and water so what now. EAT, EAT, EAT. I am sure many of you have heard of the whole “**** Loading” phase that has caught on and I do believe it is a MUCH better and more physiologically based method of carbing up than any other. It’s the whole idea that once the body is depleted of carbs and water then you have LESS chance of overspill, and can use insulin much more efficiently to carb up because there is not water to cause sub Q retention. The other factor is that when one takes in carbs they first go to the most needed area, MUSCLE. Now as stated carbs pull water SOOO what do you think happens to any Sub Q water that is left in the body?? That water is going to be pulled into the muscle. Granted I haven’t really layed down exactly how to go about all this but merely given some principles for what I believe is the better method of carbing up. Once again I won’t claim to know everything but I will try to back up what I say with common sense and using the body’s natural system of balance. There are a few other areas that Id like to get discussion going on such as sodium, diuretics, potassium, ect.. but will see if anyone is interested in. Hope this makes sense and feel free to add to it, question it, and debate it. I have some pics that I am having trouble resizing but will post them of a heavyweight I helped out for two shows that were TWO weeks apart. Anyone who competes know how hard it is to dial in for shows that close together, but we NAILED it right on and the guy walked away with a mother load of trophies and everyone was freaking out as he was eating JUNK food back stage lol.
My point is that most guys will deplete for 3 days thinking that it will cause supercompensation.... And then think they can load up for 3 days on carbs and be ok,,, in my opinion 3 days of carbs is to much and I was pointing out that the 3 day deplete will not really help.... The reason I do go so very low on carbs is beacause I want the body to be releasing as much water as possible... ITS FOR A WATER MANIPULATION reason rather than a carb reason.... Also upping the protein is for a water reason.... If you look at the thread where I post TRIAL RUN youll see what I suggest for helping with timing...If you don't have the oppurtunity to do so then yea it will be harder,,, when I have worked with guys who do not have the chance to do so I ask them lots of questions to get an idea of how their body reacts and equate that into what we do.... Most guys I will start complex carbs around friday afternoon,, continue to dry them out a bit then start loading up friday night...Once they are full and especially if so early then keep em eating.... and no water,,, time the water in the hrs leading up to stage time... Don't know if this helped much...
Heres my basic protocol if you will....
Sunday through Thursday afternoon or late afternoon lots of water and salt everything...
Thursday between 12pm and 5pm I have them stop both water and sodium and add in a natural diuretic along with 1g of Vitamin C every few hrs.... I let the body excrete as much water naturally to about friday afternoon...
If not as dry as I would like them to be on friday we supplement with a diuretics.. I DO NOT LIKE ALDACTONE as I feel lasix and demodex are much easier to control.... but thats me.....
My last guy who was a light heavy weight did not need a diuretic AT ALL.... but I keep them on hand in case...
Friday evening we start carbing up,, what you have to remember to a degree is that carbing up should help dry the person out... due to the fact that as glycogen levels fill whatever sub Q water is left should be drawn into the muscle...
You stated that you were nervous about stopping water so early and having them sip through friday due to not taking in water with a **** load.....
Most guys I don't let have water,, they suck on some ice cubes,,, plus you have to remember that the body will be depleted and as long as its in the right moderation any water taken in will be drawn into the muscle as glycogen levels replenish... In fact usually Saturday morning I have guys take in water based on how much they have pissed(I have them pee into a baby bottle so I can measure intake/output)..... I guess what I am saying is that no your ADH levels will not hold out throughout after the show,,but it doesn't matter because your guy should be dry by the time friday night hits.... Part of it is kind of an "eyeing" thing... I am able to tell what guys need to do by looking at them or hearing what they tell me over the phone... So while there is a general routine,, part of it is going with the flow and making changes along the way.....
- 07-08-2009, 08:02 PM
HERE"S the original post.... to which some of the concept I have added to over the past 7 years. I came up with the concept when I competed and worked with a number of competitive BBers in the Cleveland and Columbus area and a good man; Mike Francois).
SKIP over at IT has mutated the concept (I know MassiveG is over there), and started marketing a version of this as Skiploading. He does contest prep for a number of athletes with excellent success and a great deal of integrity. One thing I have to say about him-- he has always given me credit for the original philosophy to which I am pleased and proud to have him as a champion of this loading scheme!!!
here's the basics:
I call this "****Loading".... rather than carb or fat-loading.
Once I have carbs in my system with 5%bf or lower--- my body WANTS to hold water. So come contest day--- I have to find a way to minimize water sup-q and maximize water intermuscular. I think some people can accomplish this by using a SCAVENGER model.
Theory is---- remove water while inducing a state of WATER CRAVING within the muscles--- allowing muscles to expand against dry skin for superior conditioning.
I have accomplished this by water-loading Monday-Thursday. Then dramatically declining water Friday--- only sipping on Saturday. At the same time--- I drop carbs Wednesday thru Friday. This lack of carbs + water-loading makes me PISS like crazy and quickly trains my bladder to work efficiently (no carbs to hold the water means it just passes thru). Then everything changes on Sat morn-----> I EAT !!!! And I don't mean some chicken and oatmeal-----> I'M TALKIN' International House of Pancakes with a couple of BK croissant sandwiches (hence the term ****-Loading). I add a glass of water with breakfast and only sip after that.
The SHOCK to my body has always been positive---- the carbs from ****-food SCAVENGES the water as the muscles fill full of sugar----> remaining water is pushed in the carb+water depleted muscles. UNLESS you "over-water"...... there is hardly enough to spill over. The muscles fill out with **** FOOD (fat helps this process as well--- and to keep digestion slower)---- and as the muscles expand with a little water and much sugar-----> the dry skin is pulled taunt!!!!!! Insulin on Saturday morning helps this process--- as well as a mild diruetic Friday night and EARLY Saturday morning (I prefer aldactazide).
As far as your DIRECT QUESTION on protein before competing----> I feel whatever protein you take in is irrelevant. The key in that last 24hrs is CARBS+FAT. Protein is a "side" issue--- that should mostly be ignored.
If your concern is how much protein (& what kind) on Friday---- I'd go with 500-700 grams (cals= 2000-2800). It doesn't really matter at that point. But to avoid bloat--- I'd stick with fish/chicken/turkey and watch the sodium (no processed fish like tuna). I would definitely eliminate protein powder the last week (lactose will hold water as well)---- my preference---- drop powders the last 4 weeks (I like to be READY 1-2 weeks early so my body stabilizes and the SHOCK of depletion & ****Loading is extreme). Remember: if you want an extreme condition--- you must prepare an extreme circumstance/stumuli to elict the condition.
I cannot assess your current condition (whether you are on-track or not) because only YOU can determine you sensitivity to carbs, as well as caloric need. So any comments I would make re: your progress would be short of helpful.
Things to remember to GAUGE your own progress----
* It's the mirror that counts--- not what the scale says.
* Losing bf is a dynamic mathematic formula---- as you lose, you metabolism changes and your body becomes MORE-&-MORE resistant. Thus, different stimuli are needed.
Good luck on your progress...... and post some pics when you're shredded!!!!
SODIUM IS NOT EVIL the day of the show !!!!
You NEED sodium to get great pumps and appear hard...... and besides...... ****ing around with electrolytes WHILE using a diruretic is SCARY & DANGEROUS.
IMHO: sodium from the ****Load (should I copyright/trademark this???) will ONLY EFFECT your condition based on the amount of water you take in.
REMEMBER: you have water-loaded AND carb depleted--> and now water-depleted and are pissing like crazy from a MILD diruretic---> adding sodium will not effect sub-q if MUSCLES are the priority to replenish. LOGIC: sodium will go where calories are headed--> and thus----> sodium will replenish muscles stores (deplete with carb deplete) FIRST...... any extra will spill over. SO KEY is: don't over-water.
I checked my condition HOUR-TO-HOUR and added water if I felt flat.... and kept a high sugar level to SCAVENGE the water I added. Fat also helps with sugar level (as I mentiond before). AND BESIDES: who the hell DOESN'T like Snickers bars pre-show???
Sometimes.... a guy thinks that the extra calories will make him fat??? If you are not lean bf BEFORE Saturday morning..... you shouldn't be on stage Saturday afternoon.
So many guys think the extra cals will make them SOFT or WATERY.... so I ask..... how will one become watery if there is no water added and your body is PULLING water from sub-q to support muscles/internal organs??? More cals=more suction on existing water stores= repartition of water!!!!!
next thing ya know... you're a SHREDDER
maybe I wasn't the largest cat on the circuit..... but I weighted a few pounds more than 143
I have not tried the scenario (clean carbs Friday-- **** on Saturday). And here's WHY---> the first few shows I did, I was flat & soft compared to some. Then I'd go out on Saturday night---- eat a pizza, have a couple of beers, and maybe some CHERRY pop-tarts (I think that's phallic or something) ----> and wake up Sunday morning 3x the condition I was in Saturday night/day!!!! I got PISSED.......
So I experimented with loading phases--- and came up with this one. I RESPOND to carbs very quickly (and 10iu of 'slin HELPS.....). So I fill out very quickly and only need a few hours to blow-up. The difference is SOOOO DRAMATIC that my former training partner says I am "another being" when I hit this correct. I go from FITNESS BITCH to BBer in 3-4 hours **LOL**
SCAREY like someone stuck an airhose up my ass.
I believe this scenario would work well for those that are somewhat insulin sensitive --and/or-- using slin to load with.
I read a post over at Varix (I believe) where Massive G (a knowledgeable bro) would sometimes work out in the evening--- eat a post-workout meal--- eat a second LARGE and CARB HEAVY meal with slin just before bed---- and wake-up HARD & DRY. This is due to a similar effect as ****-loading. I've done it--- and it's WEIRD just like ****Loading.
NOTE: do not try the above unless you are POSITIVE what slin will do to you and the dosage to best take for your body (intermuscular only)-----> SIDE EFFECTS OF ****ING THIS UP = death via hypoglycemia in your sleep.
water control is KEY !!!!
if you have NO WATER (read: restricted) to spill over----- carbs scavenge sub-q water to process WHILE the filling out of carb load presses the muscles taut to the water-depleted skin. THIS IS THE SECRET---THIS IS THE CONCEPT !!!!
it's like---- you eat, then EAT MORE, nibble some after that, and you keep getting tighter. The addition of slight water is necessary to assist in this process.
- 07-12-2009, 08:21 PM
Great post. 100% agree on the faulty myth of 'gradually reducing' water trick days before the show. I have always hated the idea of stopping the water intake, because to me that means haulting the 'push' out of water, especially subq.
07-28-2009, 06:51 PM
bump, great post. should be a sticky in this contest forum?
01-12-2010, 04:54 PM
Future, what are the names of the guys who wrote this method. Also, where did you pull the original article from? I would like to read more about what they have to say about this topic and others.
01-16-2010, 04:37 PM
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