IGF-2 - Awesome, but I have a Question
- 10-10-2009, 11:23 AM
IGF-2 - Awesome, but I have a Question
I've been away from AM for a long, looong time, and been working out with no supps just for the hell of it lol. However, recently started IGF-2 (I cycled it a year ago and loved it), and im gaining lbs while still cutting (down 2lbs of fat and up approx 1lb of lean mass this week alone - 3rd week in to cycle of IGF-2! - phenomenal product!
Anyway guys, im taking Adderall (10mg once a day) for my ADD. I've noticed a pain in the ass issue, mainly I cant sleep.
First week of IGF-2 - GREAT SLEEP.
Second week , Good sleep.
Third Week, I fall asleep and wake up exactly 3.5-4.5 hours later and cant fall back asleep.
For example, I'm exhausted around 3am when i normally sleep and falling asleep isn't an issue. However, i wake up at 6/7am and feel alert but drained.
I dont take my Adderall on Weekends, but the weird thing is I get even less sleep on those days.
Could the L-Dopa be interacting with the dopamine from the Adderall? I've not noticed any other sides, and ruled out any other possible causes. The adderall is low once a day 10mg. Im taking 9 pills of igf per day.
- 10-10-2009, 02:34 PM
- 10-10-2009, 02:45 PM
hey rosie, thanks for the response.
I take 3 morning, 4 pre-workout and 3 bed.
I thought maybe too much dopamine, but I assumed I would also have other symptoms associated with it such as seen in amphetamine psychosis, which i dont (BP is norm, no dry mouth/throat etc).
Im wondering if dropping down to 6 per day would help.
10-10-2009, 04:01 PM
Two, it may not be too much dopamine at all; it COULD be, but is not definite. ONE symptom does not constitute a diagnosis.
Tell me your weight and I will set you out the CORRECT dosing/timing schedule for IGF-2 for you. Please don't just guess it.
10-10-2009, 04:20 PM
I also don't take the adderall at the same time, usually 3 hours later than the IGF-2.
Weight is 220.
I didn't know the IGF-2 was that strong it would matter too much moving the dose around as its non-hormonal etc. The only issue I could see was possibly the L-Dopa/Adderall, but even then my adderall dose is really relatively low and I assumed the actual increase in dopamine by IGF-2 to be within natural limits anyway.
10-10-2009, 04:51 PM
The possible potentiation between Mucuna Pruriens preparations and pharmaceutical dopamingeric drugs should always be regarded with care and, more importantly, as posing potentially dangerous contraindications. Including, though not limited to: an alteration in hemodynamics (hypo- and hypertension), also affecting cardiac function; depressive mood states, including so-called, "serotonin syndrome"; anxiety, paranoia, and inability to concentrate; and, as you have found, alterations in sleep cycles such as insomnia or, its corollary, somnolence.
In this case, such contraindications are posed because Amphetamine and its salts - Adderall being comprised of dextroamphetamine and amphetamine - have direct effects on monaminergic accumulation and function by inhibiting both the A and B subset of monoamine oxidase: the enzymes responsible for the oxidative deamination of monaminergic neurotransmitters/hormones. A key example would be catalyzing the oxidative deamination of Dopamine to DOPAC. At any rate, the cumulative effect of this MOA-B/A inhibitory function is to increase the overall availability of monaminergic neurotransmitters - thereby affecting neuron signalling and function, and altering mood, motivation, lust, desire, etc., etc. And obviously, this increased availability of neurotransmitters also has the potential to alter physiological and cell metabolic function, resulting in various effects including those mentioned above.
In addition, Amphetamine and its salts have shown a potent inhibition of DAT (dopamine transporter) - a membrane-residing transport protein responsible for clearing dopamine from the synaptic cleft into surrounding cells, effectively rendering the signalling of the neurotransmitter mute. Thus, Amphetamine both directly increases the total levels of monaminergic neurotransmitters available, but also prolongs their action on the neuron itself. While it bears mention, you seem educated enough that I need not explain why taking a product which vastly increases central Dopamine is undesirable in this regard.
Obviously, ingesting MP, a compound known to elicit strong and protracted alterations in the dopaminergic response, in conjunction with your Adderral is somewhat ill-advised. I think the responsible answer here is that you cease use of the product altogether; and for reference's sake, absolutely anybody who has asked me a similar question about PowerFULL would have received the same answer: the dopaminergic pathways - mesolimbic and mesocortical, in this instance - are far too variable in pathological states to administer monoamine-increasing compounds haphazardly.
10-10-2009, 07:10 PM
Resistance Training Days
Dose 1 - 3 caps first thing in the morning
Dose 2 - 3 caps ~40 min pre-resistance training
Dose 3 - 2 caps last thing at night
Non-Resistance Training Days
Dose 1 - 4 caps first thing in the morning
Dose 2 - 4 caps last thing at night
It's not about "moving the dose around"; it's about using the most EFFECTIVE dosage for your particular weight.
Mulletsoldier made some interesting points (and you really should find out BEFORE using a product whether it will interact with any medication you are using or any other products that you plan to use). In the end the decision as to whether or not to continue using IGF-2 is up to YOU.
10-10-2009, 10:30 PM
Thanks so much guys, and Mullets explanation made so much sense I cant believe I was so casual about the dose, or even taking IGF-2 with adderall in the first place.
I will follow rosies IGF-2 schedule set out, and cease adderall until I complete my cycle of IGF-2. Although my adderall is on the low side as I mentioned before, and its immediate effects last 3-4 hours (with extended buildup of the slower acting salts reaching a continuous 24 hour increased level after a period of days), I was always careful to watch out for any symptoms that something was wrong - hence why I asked you guys as soon as I noticed the sleep disturbances.
You are absolutely right that self administering a MAO inhibitor in conjunction with the adderall was very very risky. I just didnt put 2 and 2 together.
While I have no other side effects other than sleep disturbance (BP norm, appetite norm, skin norm, mouth dryness - none, motor coordination problems - none, no euphoria etc), i'd be taking an unnecessary risk to continue as is.
I have been uber careful not to take any other stimulants (otherwise would have added RPM and DRIVE) or any compound containg l-tyrosine, but completely overlooked this highly important factor.
Thanks again so much guys, and I REALLY appreciate the detailed responses.
On an interesting side note, I had been advised in the past by my doctor that a low dose of L-Dopa (via MP) would be beneficial to my ADD and result in reduction of adderall dosage. However im pretty sure IGF-2 + Adderall is serious overkill.
10-11-2009, 02:11 AM
Since you have no other effects of too-high dopamine levels, then you could be ok. Monitor it, though.
On that note, Drive is NOT a stimulant, and, although RPM contains caffeine, it is barely enough to be considered a 'stimulant'.
If using Mucuna Pruriens/L-Dopa decreases your Adderall dosage, then yes, diminishing your dosage of the latter is advisable (you might want to check with your doctor what % of L-Dopa in Mucuna Pruriens would allow this and to what you should drop your Adderall dosage to, though.
10-11-2009, 02:38 AM
I really was not aware how strong an effect the IGF-2 had on Dopamine/Serotonin increase and I assumed any actual increase would be below par one might expect from a pharmaceutical agent (such as adderall etc) as the ingredients were 'natural'. Im normally very very thorough in my research before I take anything which is why this annoys me I overlooked such a potential devastating reaction.
With regards to DRIVE my only concern was the increased thyroid output and the the simple fact the warning stated do not use if using MAO inhibitors, and stimulants - i.e adderall.
However the IGF-2 has no such warnings on the writeup http://www.nutraplanet.com/product/a...ps-700-mg.html , so I assumed its effects were minimal in relation to stimulant/dopamine/serotonin increase. Though reading the actual science backing on the product screams WARNING to me now
Thanks again Rosie. Ill talk to my doc and drop the adderall to 5mg per day (i can self medicated within the 20mg range). I really like the IGF-2 and if needs be ill drop the adderall and stay on the IGF-2.
10-11-2009, 04:00 AM
10-11-2009, 02:18 PM
You should have talked to your doctor BEFORE you started using IGF-2 (and before you decide to use any other product as well), especially if you are on medication. Anything less would NOT be advisable.
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