DMAA Alternative

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    Quote Originally Posted by dmaa View Post
    well, you are all experts. I just follow suits. we only suppy ingredients, as sales, we are lack of such internal knowledge of the ingredients.
    Well I am not an expert and to clarify, I do not represent that company. I just found it interesting that there are such a tools online that gives you the opportunity for predicating properties of various molecules.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dmaa View Post
    So do you have an ideal candidate for DMAA?
    One of my clients said Phosphatidic Acid is good enough,right?
    By the way, could you common on higenamine hcl? Some said it is toxic, is it true?
    You are an expert, we admire your comments.
    Thank you, patrick.

    i have no candidate

    phosphatidic acid will not give any stimulant activity

    people that tried higenamine have said it doesnt do much. i personally have not tried it. i know nothing of any toxicity
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelt View Post
    What a coincidence that you are asking about Higenamine, we are right now discussing this substance in one of the Swedish boards.

    Recently I found an interesting molecular property predictor which gives you 5 free predictions as a guest and if you register (for free) another 30 predictions, each month*. There are some interesting predictions under Toxicity and ADME.

    It appears that Higenamine have not so good bioavailability and at least in rats according to the study** it is metabolized to coclaurine and isococlaurine.

    If you do not want to draw the molecules yourself, you can copy following SMILES descriptors instead, by clicking on the smile symbol in the application.
    Higenamine: Oc1ccc(cc1)CC2NCCc3cc(O)c(O)cc 23
    Coclaurine: Oc1ccc(cc1)CC2NCCc3cc(OC)c(O)c c23

    It appears that both Higenamine and its metabolite Coclaurine are predicted as weak binding to Estrogen Receptor alpha (LogRBA between -3 and 0). Under Toxicity/Endocrine Disruption.

    A question to Patrick (and others): How useful would you say are such a molecular prediction property tools? Have you used them yourself sometimes?

    Due to the rules I cannot post links directly therefore you have to google it yourselfs.
    *The predictor name is ACD/I-Lab.
    **The title of the article is Identification of higenamine and its metabolites in rat by gas chromatography/mass spectrometry.

    i never used such a thing

    thanks for the tip
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    i never used such a thing

    thanks for the tip
    Ok, I understand. What I know is that most of the big pharma companies usually do some kind of prediction on all of their new designs. I presume that the synthesis costs both time and money so they probably want to see whether it is worth to even try.

    For us I would say it could be useful to get some kind of indication for the more “exotic” substances that are found in the supplements nowadays which do not have so many published papers about.
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    The very first time I tried a product containing higenamine, I felt an ephedra-like boost and was able to run much faster than I normally do for the first 12-15 minutes of my run (which usually lasts longer than an hour). I didn't experience a huge crash when it wore off -- it was more like I just didn't feel the "boost" anymore. However, every time I have used the same product since then, I haven't felt anything at all. I guess I built tolerance to it REALLY fast.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpicedCider View Post
    The very first time I tried a product containing higenamine, I felt an ephedra-like boost and was able to run much faster than I normally do for the first 12-15 minutes of my run (which usually lasts longer than an hour). I didn't experience a huge crash when it wore off -- it was more like I just didn't feel the "boost" anymore. However, every time I have used the same product since then, I haven't felt anything at all. I guess I built tolerance to it REALLY fast.
    Unlikely, given the ~10 minute plasma HL in humans
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    DMAA is still around and with the study showing its in geranium it may stick around for a bit.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    DMAA is still around and with the study showing its in geranium it may stick around for a bit.
    You are lucky. Unfortunately in Sweden it has been classified as hazardous/harmful substance and therefor forbidden to sell, import or possess. The penalty for breaking the law can give up to one year in prison.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    DMAA is still around and with the study showing its in geranium it may stick around for a bit.
    Unfortunately, my experience with DMAA was almost identical to my experience with higenamine. The first time I tried a product containing DMAA, it was actually your AMP product back in 2006. That first time was great. But ever since then, I haven't felt a thing from taking any product containing DMAA. Apparently my receptors must downregulate really fast or something.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelt View Post
    You are lucky. Unfortunately in Sweden it has been classified as hazardous/harmful substance and therefor forbidden to sell, import or possess. The penalty for breaking the law can give up to one year in prison.
    Do they still allow you to smoke cigarettes there? hmmmm
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jag View Post
    Do they still allow you to smoke cigarettes there? hmmmm
    Of course and drinking alcohol until we are piss drunk! Tobacco and alcohol products have insane taxation and therefore bring a lot of cash to the state treasury. But it is of no surprise, I think everybody knows that money rules.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelt View Post
    You are lucky. Unfortunately in Sweden it has been classified as hazardous/harmful substance and therefor forbidden to sell, import or possess. The penalty for breaking the law can give up to one year in prison.

    that is so ghey
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    Quote Originally Posted by dmaa View Post
    the latest news on DMAA .
    DMAA: Only found in select geranium, says new USPLabs-funded study.
    Controversial ingredient DMAA has been detected in geranium from select regions of China, but not all, according to a new study from the University of Memphis and funded by USPLabs.

    The study, published in Analytical Chemistry Insights , claims to explain why DMAA has been reportedly found in certain samples from China, and not in geranium samples from other regions such as India, Mississippi, France, Egypt and New Zealand.

    “Until now, none of the samples analyzed have been identical or reported as from the same region,” wrote the researchers, led by Paul Simone.

    “Thus, regional environmental variations could explain the presence of 1,3-DMAA in the Changzhou S11, Changzhou March 2012, and Changzhou May 2012 samples and the absence of 1,3-DMAA concentrations in Kunming and Guiyang geranium samples reported here, [and samples reported elsewhere].”

    USPLabs funded a study by Intertek AAC Labs published in August that also reported the detection of DMAA has been detected in Chinese geranium. That study was also published in Analytical Chemistry Insights .

    New analysis

    According to the paper, the discrepancies in the literature may be due to regional and environmental considerations, argue the Memphis-based researchers.

    Simone and his co-workers combined an extraction method with high performance liquid chromatography and tandem mass spectrometry to determine 1,3-DMAA and 1,4-dimethylamylamine (1,4-DMAA) in geranium plant samples from the Changzhou, Kunming, and Guiyang regions of China during both winter and summer.

    The researchers reported that 1,3-DMAA and 1,4-DMAA was present in concentrations in the Changzhou geranium plants of China above the reported method detection limit (MDLs).

    “The reported concentrations of 1,3-DMAA ranged from 68 to 496 ng/g and 1,4-DMAA ranged from 13 to 162 ng/g,” they said. “Similarly, 1,3-DMAA and 1,4-DMAA were not detected above the MDL in samples from Guiyang and Kunming regions.

    “To the best of the authors’ knowledge, this is the first reported inter-laboratory analysis confirming the presence of 1,3-DMAA in a geranium plant (specifically Changzhou S11 sample).”

    Multiple labs

    Commenting on the discrepancies with results from other leading laboratories, the researchers suggests that a possible solution would be a “multiple laboratory and blind analysis of identical samples expected to have 1,3-DMAA (such as Changzhou region samples) as well as samples that are not expected to contain 1,3-DMAA.

    “Using this approach, a satisfactory answer for the national regulatory agencies as well as the commercial interests could be provided.”


    all this throws a wrench in the main argument that some authorities have presented as the biggest reason DMAA should not be classified as a nutritional supplement

    there are other arguments as well, but they are secondary to this one
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelt View Post
    Of course and drinking alcohol until we are piss drunk! Tobacco and alcohol products have insane taxation and therefore bring a lot of cash to the state treasury. But it is of no surprise, I think everybody knows that money rules.

    In Sweden u can be apprehended by police if they suspect you are using anabolic steroids. suspicion can be simply having extraordinary muscle mass. this happened to IFBB bodybuilders that were visiting sweden recently.
    At least one (Tony Freeman) was arrested and forced to submit urine if i recall
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    In Sweden u can be apprehended by police if they suspect you are using anabolic steroids. suspicion can be simply having extraordinary muscle mass. this happened to IFBB bodybuilders that were visiting sweden recently.
    At least one (Tony Freeman) was arrested and forced to submit urine if i recall
    That is correct. Police do not need many reasons for acting on their suspicion without being blamed if they do mistakes. To me it was explained that this is because the police should not hesitate to act if they suspect something. Sweden is in some ways really weird place. However, the nature is nice, so are the girls, therefore do not be afraid to visit. Prison cells in Sweden are very similar to hotel rooms, so do not worry if you end up in jail.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelt View Post
    That is correct. Police do not need many reasons for acting on their suspicion without being blamed if they do mistakes. To me it was explained that this is because the police should not hesitate to act if they suspect something. Sweden is in some ways really weird place. However, the nature is nice, so are the girls, therefore do not be afraid to visit. Prison cells in Sweden are very similar to hotel rooms, so do not worry if you end up in jail.
    Wow, you should be on Sweden's board of tourism lol "Come to Sweden where the girls are nice and the prison cells are comparable a 4 star hotel in luxury and accomodation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by truthornothin View Post
    Wow, you should be on Sweden's board of tourism lol "Come to Sweden where the girls are nice and the prison cells are comparable a 4 star hotel in luxury and accomodation.
    Hehehe, that would be something. But no, I am happy with what I am doing. You can google it up how “luxury” Swedish prisons are.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelt View Post
    That is correct. Police do not need many reasons for acting on their suspicion without being blamed if they do mistakes.
    there is a word for that in the US. Its called profiling
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    and strongly violates our 4th amendment
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    there is a word for that in the US. Its called profiling
    Yes, police do profiling in Sweden as well. However, profiling takes time, and sometimes police do not have time. In these cases, police have the right to act, if they think something is fishy. I know it is weird, but it is how it works here. Also to be clear, I am not a police, I am just a Ph.D. student in a technical field.

    Also so we do not deviate from this thread, let me ask you Patrick. Do you have any idea what are the consequences if a substance have ability of binding to Estrogen Receptor alpha? I know it is probably dose dependent, but how bad can it be?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelt View Post
    Yes, police do profiling in Sweden as well. However, profiling takes time, and sometimes police do not have time. In these cases, police have the right to act, if they think something is fishy. I know it is weird, but it is how it works here. Also to be clear, I am not a police, I am just a Ph.D. student in a technical field.

    Also so we do not deviate from this thread, let me ask you Patrick. Do you have any idea what are the consequences if a substance have ability of binding to Estrogen Receptor alpha? I know it is probably dose dependent, but how bad can it be?

    You are misunderstanding the meaning of the word profiling as I meant it. Profiling in the context I am talking about means selectively pursuing a suspect based on characteristics such as race or religion or style of clothes they wear etc. Examples would be preferentially pulling a muslim aside at an airport for secondary screening or pulling a hispanic guy in a car over and asking for his identification because you suspect he may be illegal.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelt View Post
    Yes, police do profiling in Sweden as well. However, profiling takes time, and sometimes police do not have time. In these cases, police have the right to act, if they think something is fishy. I know it is weird, but it is how it works here. Also to be clear, I am not a police, I am just a Ph.D. student in a technical field.

    Also so we do not deviate from this thread, let me ask you Patrick. Do you have any idea what are the consequences if a substance have ability of binding to Estrogen Receptor alpha? I know it is probably dose dependent, but how bad can it be?


    ERalpha I believe is the predominant subtype in the hypothalamus. Therefore, a binder should suppress the HPTA
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    You are misunderstanding the meaning of the word profiling as I meant it. Profiling in the context I am talking about means selectively pursuing a suspect based on characteristics such as race or religion or style of clothes they wear etc. Examples would be preferentially pulling a muslim aside at an airport for secondary screening or pulling a hispanic guy in a car over and asking for his identification because you suspect he may be illegal.
    Ok, I understand now. Well here in Sweden our leaders like to “educate” us normal mortals in various “negative” activities (do not know how exactly call it). Therefore, it is very common practice to do something calls zero tolerance weeks. One week they pick for example driving under influence of alcohol. This means that the whole week, children in schools are “educated” how dangerous it is. Meanwhile police in the same week do extra alcohol controls on the roads. I have seen zero tolerance weeks on violence, racism, narcotics and also doping. Every time there is such a campaign the police are reinforcing it with targeted activities.

    Sweden is on other hand too much of humanistic, meaning, for example the convicts have quit a lot of rights. Therefore I am not surprised to read in newspaper that convicted pedophiles ware sending each other pictures of children over the mobile phones, since in Sweden, they are allowed to keep them.

    I do not want to make this thread to much of a political debate. So to make some sort of a conclusion the two biggest negative thinks (as I see them) are: 1 the state is trying to over protect its citizens and 2 on another hand they try to preserve the humanistic rights for everybody. And this in the end creates such weird situations.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelt View Post
    Ok, I understand now. Well here in Sweden our leaders like to “educate” us normal mortals in various “negative” activities (do not know how exactly call it). Therefore, it is very common practice to do something calls zero tolerance weeks. One week they pick for example driving under influence of alcohol. This means that the whole week, children in schools are “educated” how dangerous it is. Meanwhile police in the same week do extra alcohol controls on the roads. I have seen zero tolerance weeks on violence, racism, narcotics and also doping. Every time there is such a campaign the police are reinforcing it with targeted activities.

    Sweden is on other hand too much of humanistic, meaning, for example the convicts have quit a lot of rights. Therefore I am not surprised to read in newspaper that convicted pedophiles ware sending each other pictures of children over the mobile phones, since in Sweden, they are allowed to keep them.

    I do not want to make this thread to much of a political debate. So to make some sort of a conclusion the two biggest negative thinks (as I see them) are: 1 the state is trying to over protect its citizens and 2 on another hand they try to preserve the humanistic rights for everybody. And this in the end creates such weird situations.

    Yikes is all i gotta say
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    Yikes is all i gotta say
    Yes, it is a mess. However, there are also many good things, but like I said, we should not make this tread into a political debating. These thinks are better to talk about person to person in a pub then on an internet forum.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelt View Post
    what are the consequences if a substance have ability of binding to Estrogen Receptor alpha? I know it is probably dose dependent, but how bad can it be?
    Binding to the receptor does not imply activation. It could be an inverse agonist, antagonist, or bind with such low affinity as to afford physiological insignificance.
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    Quote Originally Posted by lronFist View Post
    Binding to the receptor does not imply activation. It could be an inverse agonist, antagonist, or bind with such low affinity as to afford physiological insignificance.

    good point
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    So we can say, if the substance is binding to ERalpha as agonist it will extra stimulate HPTA and in case of an antagonist then it will suppress HPTA?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelt View Post
    So we can say, if the substance is binding to ERalpha as agonist it will extra stimulate HPTA and in case of an antagonist then it will suppress HPTA?
    I suppose, unless there are other aspects of the compound that interfere with the HPTA
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    I suppose, unless there are other aspects of the compound that interfere with the HPTA
    Ok, interesting. However, purely theoretically, it could give problems in case the over/under stimulation would deviate outside the usual limits?

    A small clarification about the incident with convicted pedophiles. I meant that they could keep the mobile phones during serving their sentence. Not that they were able to keep the pictures of which they have been convicted for, as one could understand from my previously written text. Sweden have its weird moments, but not that severely creepy.
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    The difference between a four star prison and a four star hotel is I can leave the latter at will the former not so much. I think I will not be visiting.


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    Quote Originally Posted by pushinweightw View Post
    The difference between a four star prison and a four star hotel is I can leave the latter at will the former not so much. I think I will not be visiting.
    The difference can also be seen as, full accommodation in four star prison is paid for you with taxation money (free education included), while accommodation in four star hotel cost you $$$. Although, do not exactly know how it works with people from outside of Sweden. Most probable is the deportation, unless you claim you will be killed if deported.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelt View Post
    So we can say, if the substance is binding to ERalpha as agonist it will extra stimulate HPTA and in case of an antagonist then it will suppress HPTA?
    Higenamine has absolutely no access to the CNS (if it did, it would be quite neurotoxic) so it is a moot point.
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    Quote Originally Posted by lronFist View Post
    Higenamine has absolutely no access to the CNS (if it did, it would be quite neurotoxic) so it is a moot point.
    Yes, I found a rat study that higenamine is mostly metabolized through Catechol-O-methyl transferase (COMT) to coclaurine and isococlaurine. As I understand it also humans have COMT mechanism so it could be argued that even we do produce such metabolites? I also did prediction on coclaurine which show somewhat higher probability then higenamine that it is a week ERalpha binder. Prediction shows a good chance of coclaurine to cross BBB.

    EDIT: Predictions are done in ACD/I-lab.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelt View Post
    Yes, I found a rat study that higenamine is mostly metabolized through Catechol-O-methyl transferase (COMT) to coclaurine and isococlaurine. As I understand it also humans have COMT mechanism so it could be argued that even we do produce such metabolites? I also did prediction on coclaurine which show somewhat higher probability then higenamine that it is a week ERalpha binder. Prediction shows a good chance of coclaurine to cross BBB.

    EDIT: Predictions are done in ACD/I-lab.
    Coclaurine is the main metabolite via COMT, and it is a peripheral anti-stimulant (1). It won't make it pass the human BBB either. The first point is important because higenamine, which is indeed stimulatory to adrenergic receptors, has an incredibly short half-life and its main metabolite is distinctly anti-stimulatory.

    (1) jstage. jst. go. jp/article/jphs1951/50/1/50_1_75/_pdf
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    Quote Originally Posted by lronFist View Post
    Coclaurine is the main metabolite via COMT, and it is a peripheral anti-stimulant (1). It won't make it pass the human BBB either. The first point is important because higenamine, which is indeed stimulatory to adrenergic receptors, has an incredibly short half-life and its main metabolite is distinctly anti-stimulatory.

    (1) jstage. jst. go. jp/article/jphs1951/50/1/50_1_75/_pdf
    Great find!

    Note: a www. addition is mandatory for that link to open. Reading now.

    So it appears it might not only be anti-stimulatory but also ergolytic during exercise...
    http://pescience.com/
    http://selectprotein.com/
    The above is my own opinion and does not reflect the opinion of PES
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    Great find!

    Note: a addition is mandatory for that link to open. Reading now.
    My post count needs to be 150 before I can post links.
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    Quote Originally Posted by lronFist View Post
    Coclaurine is the main metabolite via COMT, and it is a peripheral anti-stimulant (1). It won't make it pass the human BBB either. The first point is important because higenamine, which is indeed stimulatory to adrenergic receptors, has an incredibly short half-life and its main metabolite is distinctly anti-stimulatory.

    (1) jstage. jst. go. jp/article/jphs1951/50/1/50_1_75/_pdf
    Yes, that article I have seen. Some comments on the ACD/I-Lab predictions for crossing BBB are unfortunately only on rodent model.
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    Quote Originally Posted by lronFist View Post
    My post count needs to be 150 before I can post links.
    I have the same problem, and find it annoying.
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