Let's talk Ursolic Acid...

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  1. Quote Originally Posted by Primal2 View Post
    Never heard of it or anyone having heart attacks while on UA. Who told you that and what did they say?
    there was a study shown to cause strokes, it was posted on phf


  2. Quote Originally Posted by dlucks View Post
    there was a study shown to cause strokes, it was posted on phf
    That's interesting seeing how there are many studies inclusive of those posted in this thread that show it to be anti-atherogenic. Unfortunately, I am unaware of this study...perhaps someone would be so kind as to re-post from there or offer a source?


    D_
    Anabolicminds.com Featured Author
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  3. Quote Originally Posted by mattrag View Post
    A year @ 1g sounds very doable. Bulk for sure if available. Though if this could make my cholesterol levels and be an anti inflammatory, then perhaps I could buy this instead of a couple other staples I use and still be able to run it at a PA's price for a year. I'm actually thinking about doing that now. I have around 16 bottles...
    I'd be tuning in for sure...


    D_
    Anabolicminds.com Featured Author

  4. Quote Originally Posted by dinoiii View Post
    That's interesting seeing how there are many studies inclusive of those posted in this thread that show it to be anti-atherogenic. Unfortunately, I am unaware of this study...perhaps someone would be so kind as to re-post from there or offer a source?


    D_
    here is what I found so far

    "Ursolic acid causes DNA-damage, P53-mediated, mitochondria- and caspase-dependent human endothelial cell apoptosis, and accelerates atherosclerotic plaque formation in vivo."Messner B, Zeller I, Ploner C, Frotschnig S, Ringer T, Steinacher-Nigisch A, Ritsch A, Laufer G, Huck C, Bernhard D.
    Source
    Atherosclerosis. 2011 Jun 22

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21703625

  5. Quote Originally Posted by dlucks View Post
    here is what I found so far

    "Ursolic acid causes DNA-damage, P53-mediated, mitochondria- and caspase-dependent human endothelial cell apoptosis, and accelerates atherosclerotic plaque formation in vivo."Messner B, Zeller I, Ploner C, Frotschnig S, Ringer T, Steinacher-Nigisch A, Ritsch A, Laufer G, Huck C, Bernhard D.
    Source
    Atherosclerosis. 2011 Jun 22

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21703625

    Saying that that study shows that ursolic acid causes strokes is about as irresponsible a statement as if i were to say these following two studies shows that ursolic acid prevents stroke

    Atherosclerosis. 2011 Jun 17. [Epub ahead of print]
    Ursolic acid protects diabetic mice against monocyte dysfunction and accelerated atherosclerosis.

    Ullevig SL, Zhao Q, Zamora D, Asmis R.
    Source

    Department of Biochemistry, University of Texas Health Science Center at San Antonio, San Antonio, TX 78229-3900, United States



    J Ethnopharmacol. 2003 Feb;84(2-3):299-305.
    Antihypertensive, antiatherosclerotic and antioxidant activity of triterpenoids isolated from Olea europaea, subspecies africana leaves.

    Somova LI, Shode FO, Ramnanan P, Nadar A.
    Source

    Department of Human Physiology, University of Durban-Westville, Private Bag X54001, Durban 4000, South Africa. [email protected].
    Anabolicminds.com Featured Author
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  6. Quote Originally Posted by dlucks View Post
    here is what I found so far

    "Ursolic acid causes DNA-damage, P53-mediated, mitochondria- and caspase-dependent human endothelial cell apoptosis, and accelerates atherosclerotic plaque formation in vivo."Messner B, Zeller I, Ploner C, Frotschnig S, Ringer T, Steinacher-Nigisch A, Ritsch A, Laufer G, Huck C, Bernhard D.
    Source
    Atherosclerosis. 2011 Jun 22

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21703625

    Just like pa said, and what dana posted on the first page, those studies say the opposite.

  7. Yeah, I just got my hands on the original article (in full txt) of what you suggest. I will have to try and set some time aside to truly evaluate it. It is good that they used ApoE knockouts, but I almost wish they had used ApoE knockins for comparison. I am happy Patrick chimed in as I was trying to say the same thing (don't believe I used both citations but I did use one in the aforementioned body of this thread). Alas, I digress until I read the study you pose in full...at least at this point, I can say no more than the results are "interesting" seeing how they are a direct contrast to studies we already had. But really I am trying to take this as objectively as I can guys so I will evaluate the study in full before drawing any kind of conclusion; not just rest on the laurels of other researchers' interpretation. Ask Patrick, when he and I evaluated studies together; I am very cautious on interpretation as some authors sort of - statistically fudge the data to get the end result they want in some studies and so on...we have talked about this in this subforum in other threads even. It doesn't mean by any stretch that we should denounce the study...for now, and for those keeping score in this thread ... it's anti-atherogenicity 2 vs. atherogenicity 1

    Just give me some time though to really tear into it. I have about 13 other studies on my desk right now that I am reviewing for other products and a book I am writing at the moment on testosterone decline through aging for a product Patrick is aware of. Let me paw through it in the next few days and by all means, do NOT let this stop chatter on this very interesting ingredient.

    I would have hated to leave this too long seeing how it could have gotten heated without some notion that I was going to evaluate in full.


    D_
    Anabolicminds.com Featured Author

  8. The contradictory results from the different studies are actually discussed in this article

    Atherosclerosis. 2011 Sep 28. [Epub ahead of print]
    Ursolic acid effect on atherosclerosis: Apples and apples, or apples and oranges?

    Tannock LR.
    Source

    Division of Endocrinology and Molecular Medicine, University of Kentucky, Lexington, KY, USA; Department of Veterans Affairs, Lexington, KY, USA.

    PMID: 21993411 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]
    Anabolicminds.com Featured Author

  9. Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    The contradictory results from the different studies are actually discussed in this article

    Atherosclerosis. 2011 Sep 28. [Epub ahead of print]
    Ursolic acid effect on atherosclerosis: Apples and apples, or apples and oranges?

    Tannock LR.
    Source

    Division of Endocrinology and Molecular Medicine, University of Kentucky, Lexington, KY, USA; Department of Veterans Affairs, Lexington, KY, USA.

    PMID: 21993411 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]
    Thanks Patrick!

    Let me grab a copy of this one too, so I am fully informed as I mentioned to you contemplating use of the agent in higher dose myself.


    D_
    Anabolicminds.com Featured Author

  10. Quote Originally Posted by dinoiii View Post
    Yeah, I just got my hands on the original article (in full txt) of what you suggest. I will have to try and set some time aside to truly evaluate it. It is good that they used ApoE knockouts, but I almost wish they had used ApoE knockins for comparison. I am happy Patrick chimed in as I was trying to say the same thing (don't believe I used both citations but I did use one in the aforementioned body of this thread). Alas, I digress until I read the study you pose in full...at least at this point, I can say no more than the results are "interesting" seeing how they are a direct contrast to studies we already had. But really I am trying to take this as objectively as I can guys so I will evaluate the study in full before drawing any kind of conclusion; not just rest on the laurels of other researchers' interpretation. Ask Patrick, when he and I evaluated studies together; I am very cautious on interpretation as some authors sort of - statistically fudge the data to get the end result they want in some studies and so on...we have talked about this in this subforum in other threads even. It doesn't mean by any stretch that we should denounce the study...for now, and for those keeping score in this thread ... it's anti-atherogenicity 2 vs. atherogenicity 1

    Just give me some time though to really tear into it. I have about 13 other studies on my desk right now that I am reviewing for other products and a book I am writing at the moment on testosterone decline through aging for a product Patrick is aware of. Let me paw through it in the next few days and by all means, do NOT let this stop chatter on this very interesting ingredient.

    I would have hated to leave this too long seeing how it could have gotten heated without some notion that I was going to evaluate in full.


    D_
    thanks D. Yes there are other studies that contradict it, BUT right we cant denounce it and pretend that it didn't happen or that they're liars.

    Looking forward to what you have to say

  11. I've since changed my mind on this product and I'm giving it a try at 18 caps per day. Hopefully that is a high enough dosage. If I start to see great results I will purchase more when I run low.

  12. This ingredient seems to be working its way into a lot of new products. Patrick must be right about this one.

  13. Quote Originally Posted by dinoiii View Post
    Ok, so the big question centers on Ursobolic and whether it's dosed appropriately....

    3-6 capsules at 150mg/3 caps suggested up to 3 times per day or a total daily dose of 150-900mg per day. I certainly understand how that could prove cost-prohibitive for what people may be able to afford with only 40 servings - or at highest-end use you would need 4 bottles per month!!! But that's not necessary for efficacy if you paw through the over 700 trials on the compound.

    Now - safety would be what: While studies have used dosages ranging from 10-3000mg, the average treatment dosage from over 700 trials appears to be between 250-500mg/day. Many products on market are from herbal extracts like Holy Basil (which only yields about 2.5% ursolic acid; mind you there are other good things about Holy Basil, but this is beyond the scope of this post).


    So if the participants got results at that dosage a dosage of between 500-900mg should certainly be effective, right?

  14. Quote Originally Posted by T-Bone View Post
    So if the participants got results at that dosage a dosage of between 500-900mg should certainly be effective, right?
    I am currently running this on my Mdrol cycle for the liver/heart protection. I will throughout my PCT then get bloods. I will post them in my log later when I get them in about 8 weeks.
    RecoverBro ELITE

  15. i tried up to 9 a day of epharms product i took it while deployed, running 10 miles a week and caloric deficit. the problem is i was taking 10 day that is economically unobtainable for me to go any higher
    toes-on-the-nose.blogspot.com Deployed blogging

  16. Doc,
    Done any further testing on UA on yourself or clients?

  17. Quote Originally Posted by dinoiii View Post
    Ok, so the big question centers on Ursobolic and whether it's dosed appropriately....

    3-6 capsules at 150mg/3 caps suggested up to 3 times per day or a total daily dose of 150-900mg per day. I certainly understand how that could prove cost-prohibitive
    Quote Originally Posted by T-Bone View Post
    I've since changed my mind on this product and I'm giving it a try at 18 caps per day. Hopefully that is a high enough dosage. If I start to see great results I will purchase more when I run low.
    I just started PAs Ursolic acid product at 20 caps a day. Far from economical but lucky for me I got 4 bottles from a trade so am giving it a shot
    PESCIENCE.COM

    "The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance." - Socrates

  18. Please post how it goes on that many caps a day. Interrested if there is increase in strength.

  19. Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    I just started PAs Ursolic acid product at 20 caps a day. Far from economical but lucky for me I got 4 bottles from a trade so am giving it a shot
    its a good product but this one is a lot better

    http://www.prototypenutrition.com/Pr...ProductCode=UR

    sorry
    Anabolicminds.com Featured Author

  20. Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    its a good product but this one is a lot better

    http://www.prototypenutrition.com/Pr...ProductCode=UR

    sorry
    My understanding is that UA does not have an oral bio availability problem as the rodents in the studies are utilizing it just fine, the problem lies in the amount we are taking (you just need a lot.)

    Per the HED conversion the amount a human wants is around 1-2g total (not % of the extract) which came to 20 pills a day of your UA product (for 1g).

    Disclaimer: Mind you, I did not perform the HED calculation nor did I really review the literarure.

    I was lucky enough to get a bunch of bottles off a trade . I spoke with someone (in the industry) and above is how it was explained to me. So right now I am doing 5 pills 4 times a day pre meals and with the amount of UA I have, this should last me around 4 weeks. I am not well versed enough in topicals to know how much better a spray would make it but for now I am just mega dosing it orally and will see how it goes.
    PESCIENCE.COM

    "The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance." - Socrates

  21. Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    My understanding is that UA does not have an oral bio availability problem as the rodents in the studies are utilizing it just fine, the problem lies in the amount we are taking (you just need a lot.)

    Per the HED conversion the amount a human wants is around 1-2g total (not % of the extract) which came to 20 pills a day of your UA product (for 1g).

    Disclaimer: Mind you, I did not perform the HED calculation nor did I really review the literarure.

    I was lucky enough to get a bunch of bottles off a trade . I spoke with someone (in the industry) and above is how it was explained to me. So right now I am doing 5 pills 4 times a day pre meals and with the amount of UA I have, this should last me around 4 weeks. I am not well versed enough in topicals to know how much better a spray would make it but for now I am just mega dosing it orally and will see how it goes.

    There is science based on mice and there is the real world. Trust me, the spray is way way better

    taking larger dosages orally doesnt seem to overcome the limitations of bioavailablity. Its likely that only so much can be absorbed orally at one time and beyond that you cant do anything
    Anabolicminds.com Featured Author

  22. Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    My understanding is that UA does not have an oral bio availability problem as the rodents in the studies are utilizing it just fine, the problem lies in the amount we are taking (you just need a lot.)
    A study investigating the intestinal uptake of ursolic acid (from an ethanolic extract of Sambucus chinensis) found that a dose contributing 80mg/kg bodyweight ursolic acid had about an 0.6% oral bioavailability based on the compound's AUC.[12]

    Liao Q, et al. LC-MS determination and pharmacokinetic studies of ursolic acid in rat plasma after administration of the traditional chinese medicinal preparation Lu-Ying extract. Yakugaku Zasshi. (2005)


    A similar study on oleanolic acid (almost same structure as ursolic) showed same low bioavailability


    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17163409

    Anabolicminds.com Featured Author

  23. Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post

    taking larger dosages orally doesnt seem to overcome the limitations of bioavailablity. Its likely that only so much can be absorbed orally at one time and beyond that you cant do anything
    What would you guess is the maximal amount (orally) I can take at once?
    PESCIENCE.COM

    "The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance." - Socrates

  24. Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    What would you guess is the maximal amount (orally) I can take at once?
    you mean before you choke or throw up?
    Anabolicminds.com Featured Author
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