Let's talk Ursolic Acid...

[dinoiii]

id use it for a year at2 g a day if i had a bulk powdered source.

wouldnt bother me any.

I sense that about you. We need more of you actually; not because I am into making you the "sacrificial lamb" or anything...but sometimes, in the name of science, people outside of this industry (cult) of ours just might not understand.

What about the poor kinetics? It seems administration/delivery methods need some improvement.

I don't disagree with this either; this is something that need be addressed. I'm just not certain how to at this time as I am uncertain it has ever been looked into to my liking. Unfortunately, large doses are probably necessity and doses I have suggested in this thread are - to the best of my knowledge - the ones that are used in the literature in an oral fashion. I could easily anticipate lowering the dosage if better bioavailability existed (much is the case with anything though).


D_

[mattrag]

A year @ 1g sounds very doable. Bulk for sure if available. Though if this could make my cholesterol levels and be an anti inflammatory, then perhaps I could buy this instead of a couple other staples I use and still be able to run it at a PA's price for a year. I'm actually thinking about doing that now. I have around 16 bottles...

[dlucks]

What is your opinion on the stroke problem with this?

[Primal2]

What is your opinion on the stroke problem with this?

Never heard of it or anyone having heart attacks while on UA. Who told you that and what did they say?

[ssbackwards]

well D, if you need someone like me around im willing. its fun. i push several limits.

[dlucks]

Never heard of it or anyone having heart attacks while on UA. Who told you that and what did they say?

there was a study shown to cause strokes, it was posted on phf

[dinoiii]

there was a study shown to cause strokes, it was posted on phf

That's interesting seeing how there are many studies inclusive of those posted in this thread that show it to be anti-atherogenic. Unfortunately, I am unaware of this study...perhaps someone would be so kind as to re-post from there or offer a source?


D_

[dinoiii]

A year @ 1g sounds very doable. Bulk for sure if available. Though if this could make my cholesterol levels and be an anti inflammatory, then perhaps I could buy this instead of a couple other staples I use and still be able to run it at a PA's price for a year. I'm actually thinking about doing that now. I have around 16 bottles...

I'd be tuning in for sure...


D_

[dlucks]

That's interesting seeing how there are many studies inclusive of those posted in this thread that show it to be anti-atherogenic. Unfortunately, I am unaware of this study...perhaps someone would be so kind as to re-post from there or offer a source?


D_

here is what I found so far

"Ursolic acid causes DNA-damage, P53-mediated, mitochondria- and caspase-dependent human endothelial cell apoptosis, and accelerates atherosclerotic plaque formation in vivo."Messner B, Zeller I, Ploner C, Frotschnig S, Ringer T, Steinacher-Nigisch A, Ritsch A, Laufer G, Huck C, Bernhard D.
Source
Atherosclerosis. 2011 Jun 22

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21703625

[Patrick Arnold]

here is what I found so far

"Ursolic acid causes DNA-damage, P53-mediated, mitochondria- and caspase-dependent human endothelial cell apoptosis, and accelerates atherosclerotic plaque formation in vivo."Messner B, Zeller I, Ploner C, Frotschnig S, Ringer T, Steinacher-Nigisch A, Ritsch A, Laufer G, Huck C, Bernhard D.
Source
Atherosclerosis. 2011 Jun 22

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21703625

Saying that that study shows that ursolic acid causes strokes is about as irresponsible a statement as if i were to say these following two studies shows that ursolic acid prevents stroke

Atherosclerosis. 2011 Jun 17. [Epub ahead of print]
Ursolic acid protects diabetic mice against monocyte dysfunction and accelerated atherosclerosis.

Ullevig SL, Zhao Q, Zamora D, Asmis R.
Source

Department of Biochemistry, University of Texas Health Science Center at San Antonio, San Antonio, TX 78229-3900, United States



J Ethnopharmacol. 2003 Feb;84(2-3):299-305.
Antihypertensive, antiatherosclerotic and antioxidant activity of triterpenoids isolated from Olea europaea, subspecies africana leaves.

Somova LI, Shode FO, Ramnanan P, Nadar A.
Source

Department of Human Physiology, University of Durban-Westville, Private Bag X54001, Durban 4000, South Africa. somova@pixie.udw.ac.

[Primal2]

here is what I found so far

"Ursolic acid causes DNA-damage, P53-mediated, mitochondria- and caspase-dependent human endothelial cell apoptosis, and accelerates atherosclerotic plaque formation in vivo."Messner B, Zeller I, Ploner C, Frotschnig S, Ringer T, Steinacher-Nigisch A, Ritsch A, Laufer G, Huck C, Bernhard D.
Source
Atherosclerosis. 2011 Jun 22

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21703625

Just like pa said, and what dana posted on the first page, those studies say the opposite.

[dinoiii]

Yeah, I just got my hands on the original article (in full txt) of what you suggest. I will have to try and set some time aside to truly evaluate it. It is good that they used ApoE knockouts, but I almost wish they had used ApoE knockins for comparison. I am happy Patrick chimed in as I was trying to say the same thing (don't believe I used both citations but I did use one in the aforementioned body of this thread). Alas, I digress until I read the study you pose in full...at least at this point, I can say no more than the results are "interesting" seeing how they are a direct contrast to studies we already had. But really I am trying to take this as objectively as I can guys so I will evaluate the study in full before drawing any kind of conclusion; not just rest on the laurels of other researchers' interpretation. Ask Patrick, when he and I evaluated studies together; I am very cautious on interpretation as some authors sort of - statistically fudge the data to get the end result they want in some studies and so on...we have talked about this in this subforum in other threads even. It doesn't mean by any stretch that we should denounce the study...for now, and for those keeping score in this thread ... it's anti-atherogenicity 2 vs. atherogenicity 1

Just give me some time though to really tear into it. I have about 13 other studies on my desk right now that I am reviewing for other products and a book I am writing at the moment on testosterone decline through aging for a product Patrick is aware of. Let me paw through it in the next few days and by all means, do NOT let this stop chatter on this very interesting ingredient.

I would have hated to leave this too long seeing how it could have gotten heated without some notion that I was going to evaluate in full.


D_

[Patrick Arnold]

The contradictory results from the different studies are actually discussed in this article

Atherosclerosis. 2011 Sep 28. [Epub ahead of print]
Ursolic acid effect on atherosclerosis: Apples and apples, or apples and oranges?

Tannock LR.
Source

Division of Endocrinology and Molecular Medicine, University of Kentucky, Lexington, KY, USA; Department of Veterans Affairs, Lexington, KY, USA.

PMID: 21993411 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]

[dinoiii]

The contradictory results from the different studies are actually discussed in this article

Atherosclerosis. 2011 Sep 28. [Epub ahead of print]
Ursolic acid effect on atherosclerosis: Apples and apples, or apples and oranges?

Tannock LR.
Source

Division of Endocrinology and Molecular Medicine, University of Kentucky, Lexington, KY, USA; Department of Veterans Affairs, Lexington, KY, USA.

PMID: 21993411 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]

Thanks Patrick!

Let me grab a copy of this one too, so I am fully informed as I mentioned to you contemplating use of the agent in higher dose myself.


D_

[dlucks]

Yeah, I just got my hands on the original article (in full txt) of what you suggest. I will have to try and set some time aside to truly evaluate it. It is good that they used ApoE knockouts, but I almost wish they had used ApoE knockins for comparison. I am happy Patrick chimed in as I was trying to say the same thing (don't believe I used both citations but I did use one in the aforementioned body of this thread). Alas, I digress until I read the study you pose in full...at least at this point, I can say no more than the results are "interesting" seeing how they are a direct contrast to studies we already had. But really I am trying to take this as objectively as I can guys so I will evaluate the study in full before drawing any kind of conclusion; not just rest on the laurels of other researchers' interpretation. Ask Patrick, when he and I evaluated studies together; I am very cautious on interpretation as some authors sort of - statistically fudge the data to get the end result they want in some studies and so on...we have talked about this in this subforum in other threads even. It doesn't mean by any stretch that we should denounce the study...for now, and for those keeping score in this thread ... it's anti-atherogenicity 2 vs. atherogenicity 1

Just give me some time though to really tear into it. I have about 13 other studies on my desk right now that I am reviewing for other products and a book I am writing at the moment on testosterone decline through aging for a product Patrick is aware of. Let me paw through it in the next few days and by all means, do NOT let this stop chatter on this very interesting ingredient.

I would have hated to leave this too long seeing how it could have gotten heated without some notion that I was going to evaluate in full.


D_

thanks D. Yes there are other studies that contradict it, BUT right we cant denounce it and pretend that it didn't happen or that they're liars.

Looking forward to what you have to say

[T-Bone]

I've since changed my mind on this product and I'm giving it a try at 18 caps per day. Hopefully that is a high enough dosage. If I start to see great results I will purchase more when I run low.

[T-Bone]

This ingredient seems to be working its way into a lot of new products. Patrick must be right about this one.

[T-Bone]

Ok, so the big question centers on Ursobolic and whether it's dosed appropriately....

3-6 capsules at 150mg/3 caps suggested up to 3 times per day or a total daily dose of 150-900mg per day. I certainly understand how that could prove cost-prohibitive for what people may be able to afford with only 40 servings - or at highest-end use you would need 4 bottles per month!!! But that's not necessary for efficacy if you paw through the over 700 trials on the compound.

Now - safety would be what: While studies have used dosages ranging from 10-3000mg, the average treatment dosage from over 700 trials appears to be between 250-500mg/day. Many products on market are from herbal extracts like Holy Basil (which only yields about 2.5% ursolic acid; mind you there are other good things about Holy Basil, but this is beyond the scope of this post).

So if the participants got results at that dosage a dosage of between 500-900mg should certainly be effective, right?

[mattrag]

So if the participants got results at that dosage a dosage of between 500-900mg should certainly be effective, right?

I am currently running this on my Mdrol cycle for the liver/heart protection. I will throughout my PCT then get bloods. I will post them in my log later when I get them in about 8 weeks.

[Outside Backer]

i tried up to 9 a day of epharms product i took it while deployed, running 10 miles a week and caloric deficit. the problem is i was taking 10 day that is economically unobtainable for me to go any higher