Hormone Replacement Therapy?
- 09-11-2005, 12:11 PM
Hormone Replacement Therapy?
am reading "The Testosterone Syndrome", by Eugene Shippen (asked my wife to ask her gyno if he knew someone I could call - he sent me the name of this book), and it's basically as sales pitch (it seems); however, I'm already sold: my problem is finding an MD who's willing to have the conversation.
Since I've never been to a doc who gave a **** how I felt or what I wanted, I'm hoping that some of our gentlemen could share their advice and experiences on how to find such a doctor.
Otherwise, I'm down to calling every endocrinologist in town & asking them if they do HRT with men. All input welcome!
- 09-11-2005, 06:38 PM
I sent you a PM Bodywizard......
- 09-11-2005, 06:39 PM
i receive hrt from my doc [family]i just said i felt slugish ,tired no limbido and that i heard this could be caused by low testosterone , so he gave me a blood test for that and /liver/kidneys and so on , aand it turned out low 204NG/DL so he gave me a psa [prostate] blood test so he'de have a baseline and then started shots every two weeks.....dont know if this is what you wanted but i tried , good luck
09-11-2005, 06:59 PM
Originally Posted by AGELESS
Send me one too
09-11-2005, 07:01 PM
Hey Waterlogged - Im sure you didnt go into detail, but your DR. should also do a digital exam (finger) PSA is not always enough. They must also check estradiol. You should also get your PSA checked in 90 days, just to be safe.
Here is some info I copied and pasted...hope its helpful.
MALE HORMONES AND AGING
As men age past age 40, hormonal changes occur that perceptibly inhibit physical, sexual, and cognitive function. The outward appearance of a typical middle-aged male shows increased abdominal fat and shrinkage of muscle mass, a hallmark effect of hormone imbalance (94-97, 271).1 Loss of a feeling of well-being, sometimes manifesting as depression, is a common psychological complication of hormone imbalance. Until recently, these changes were attributed to "growing old," and men were expected to accept the fact that their bodies were entering into a long degenerative process that would someday result in death.
A remarkable amount of data has been compiled indicating that many of the diseases that middle-aged men begin experiencing, including depression, fatigue, abdominal weight gain, alterations in mood and cognition, decreased libido, erectile dysfunction, prostate disease, and heart disease are directly related to hormone imbalances that are correctable with currently available drug and nutrient therapies. The onset of these symptoms usually appears in the early 50s, although with smokers the onset is significantly earlier (290-293).
To the patient's detriment, conventional doctors are increasingly prescribing drugs to treat depression, elevated cholesterol, angina, and a host of other diseases that might be caused by an underlying hormone imbalance.
If doctors checked their male patients' blood levels of estrogen, testosterone, thyroid, and DHEA (instead of prescribing drugs to treat symptoms), they might be surprised to learn that many problems could be eliminated by adjusting hormone levels to fit the profile of a healthy 21-year-old male.
Few physicians are familiar with the hormone blood tests that should be ordered for men, nor do they have the experience required to properly adjust hormones to reverse the degenerative changes that begin in midlife. This protocol will provide the patient and physician with the information necessary to safely modulate hormone levels for the purpose of preventing and treating many of the common diseases associated with growing older.
Too Much Estrogen
The most significant hormone imbalance in aging men is a decrease in free testosterone, while estrogen levels remain the same or increase precipitously. As men grow older, they experience a variety of disorders relating to the dual effects of having too little testosterone and excess estrogen. The result is a testosterone-estrogen imbalance that directly causes many of the debilitating health problems associated with normal aging (1-12, 28).
One cause of hormone imbalance in men is that their testosterone is increasingly converted to estrogen. One report showed that estrogen levels of the average 54-year-old man are higher than those of the average 59-year-old woman (1, 5, 13-18, 48).
The reason that testosterone replacement therapy does not work by itself for many men is that exogenously administered testosterone may convert (aromatize) into even more estrogen, thus potentially worsening the hormone imbalance problem in aging males (i.e., too much estrogen and not enough free testosterone) (21, 26). Although there are studies that show that testosterone replacement therapy does not increase estrogen beyond normal reference ranges, we will show later how the standard laboratory reference ranges do not adequately address the issue of estrogen overload (4, 8, 9, 17, 22-25, 27, 29-32).
Estrogen is an essential hormone for men, but too much of it causes a wide range of health problems. The most dangerous acute effect of excess estrogen and too little testosterone is an increased risk of heart attack or stroke (39-43, 261-270). High levels of estrogen have been implicated as a cause of benign prostatic hypertrophy (BPH) (35-44, 46, 47). One mechanism by which nettle root extract works is to block the binding of growth-stimulating estrogen to prostate cells (42-44, 48-50).
When there is too little testosterone present, estrogen attaches to testosterone cell receptor sites throughout the body and creates many problems in aging men. In youth, low amounts of estrogen are used to turn off the powerful cell-stimulating effects of testosterone. As estrogen levels increase with age, testosterone cell stimulation may be locked in the "off" position, thus reducing sexual arousal and sensation and causing the loss of libido so common in aging men (94, 99, 259).
High serum levels of estrogen also trick the brain into thinking that enough testosterone is being produced, further slowing the natural production of testosterone. This happens when estrogen saturates testosterone receptors in the hypothalamus region of the brain. The saturated hypothalamus then stops sending out a hormone to the pituitary gland to stimulate secretion of luteinizing hormone that the gonads require to produce testosterone. High estrogen can thus shut down the normal testicular production of testosterone (1, 53, 54, 271-277).
One further complication of excess estrogen is that it increases the body's production of sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG). SHBG binds free testosterone in the blood and makes it unavailable to cell receptor sites (51, 52, 55, 56).
Based on the multiple deleterious effects of excess estrogen in men, aggressive action should be taken to reduce estrogen to a safe range if a blood test reveals elevated levels. We will discuss the appropriate blood tests and steps that can be taken to lower estrogen levels later in this protocol.
THE CRITICAL IMPORTANCE OF FREE TESTOSTERONE
Testosterone is much more than a sex hormone. There are testosterone receptor sites in cells throughout the body, most notably in the brain and heart (60-180). Youthful protein synthesis for maintaining muscle mass and bone formation requires testosterone (67, 69, 81). Testosterone improves oxygen uptake throughout the body, helps control blood sugar, regulates cholesterol, and maintains immune surveillance (82, 83). The body requires testosterone to maintain youthful cardiac output and neurological function (58, 65). Testosterone is also a critical hormone in the maintenance of healthy bone density (59, 66, 67, 84-86), muscle mass, and red blood cell production (67, 69, 91-93, 98).
Of critical concern to psychiatrists are studies showing that men with depression have lower levels of testosterone than do control subjects. For some men, elevating free testosterone levels could prove to be an effective antidepressant therapy. There is a basis for free testosterone levels being measured in men with depression and for replacement therapy being initiated if free testosterone levels are low normal or below normal.
Testosterone is one of the most misunderstood hormones. Body builders tarnished the reputation of testosterone by putting large amounts of synthetic testosterone drugs into their young bodies. Synthetic testosterone abuse can produce detrimental effects (34), but this has nothing to do with the benefits a man over age 40 can enjoy by properly restoring his natural testosterone to a youthful level.
Conventional doctors have not recommended tes-tosterone replacement therapy because of an erroneous concern that testosterone causes prostate cancer. As we will later show, fear of prostate cancer is not a scientifically valid reason to avoid testosterone modulation therapy.
Another concern that skeptical physicians have about prescribing testosterone replacement therapy is that some poorly conducted studies showed it to be ineffective in the long-term treatment of aging. These studies indicate anti-aging benefits when testosterone is given, but the effects often wear off. What physicians fail to appreciate is that exogenously administered testosterone can convert to estrogen in the body. The higher estrogen levels may negate the benefits of the exogenously administered testosterone. The solution to the estrogen-overload problem is to block the conversion of testosterone to estrogen in the body.
Numerous studies show that maintaining youthful levels of free testosterone can enable the aging man to restore strength, stamina, cognition, heart function, sexuality, and outlook on life, that is, to alleviate depression. A study in Drugs and Aging (1999) suggested that androgen therapy can result in polycythemia (increased numbers of red blood cells) causing an increase in blood viscosity and risk of clotting (303). For many aging men, however, borderline anemia is a greater concern than red blood cell overproduction. When men are deprived of testosterone during prostate cancer therapy, anemia frequently manifests. Life Extension has not seen cases in which polycythemia developed in men taking enough tes-tosterone to restore physiological youthful ranges. In other words, too much testosterone could cause problems, but replacing testosterone to that of a healthy 21-year-old should not produce the side effects that some doctors are unduly concerned about. As you will read in the section entitled "Testosterone and the Heart," it appears that testosterone replacement therapy provides significant beneficial effects against cardiovascular disease.
Why Testosterone Levels Decline
Testosterone production begins in the brain. When the hypothalamus detects a deficiency of testosterone in the blood, it secretes a hormone called gonadotrophin-releasing hormone to the pituitary gland. This prompts the pituitary to secrete luteinizing hormone (LH), which then prompts the Leydig cells in the testes to produce testosterone.
In some men, the testes lose their ability to produce testosterone, no matter how much LH is being produced. This type of testosterone deficiency is diagnosed when blood tests show high levels of LH and low levels of testosterone. In other words, the pituitary gland is telling the testes (by secreting LH) to produce testosterone, but the testes have lost their functional ability. So the pituitary gland vainly continues to secrete LH because there is not enough tes-tosterone in the blood to provide a feedback mechanism that would tell the pituitary to shut down. In other cases, the hypothalamus, or pituitary gland, fails to produce sufficient amounts of LH, thus preventing healthy testes from secreting testosterone. Blood testing can determine whether sufficient amounts of LH are being secreted by the pituitary gland and help determine the appropriate therapeutic approach. If serum (blood) testosterone levels are very low, it is important to diagnose the cause, but no matter what the underlying problem, therapies exist today to safely restore testosterone to youthful levels in any man (who does not already have prostate cancer).
As indicated earlier, a major problem that aging men face is not low production of testosterone, but excessive conversion of testosterone to estrogen. Specific therapies to suppress excess estrogen and boost free testosterone back to youthful physiological levels will be discussed later.
The Effects of Testosterone on Libido
Sexual stimulation and erection begin in the brain when neuronal testosterone-receptor sites are prompted to ignite a cascade of biochemical events that involve testosterone-receptor sites in the nerves, blood vessels, and muscles. Free testosterone promotes sexual desire and then facilitates performance, sensation, and the ultimate degree of fulfillment.
Without adequate levels of free testosterone, the quality of a man's sex life is adversely affected and the genitals atrophy. When free testosterone is restored, positive changes can be expected in the structure and function of the sex organs. (It should be noted that sexual dysfunction can be caused by other factors unrelated to hormone imbalance. An example of such a factor is arteriosclerotic blockage of the penile arteries.)
The genital-pelvic region is packed with testosterone receptors that are ultra-sensitive to free testosterone-induced sexual stimulation. Clinical studies using tes-tosterone injections, creams, or patches have often failed to provide a long-lasting, libido-enhancing effect in aging men. We now know why. The testosterone can be converted to estrogen. The estrogen is then taken up by testosterone receptor sites in cells throughout the body. When an estrogen molecule occupies a testosterone receptor site on a cell membrane, it blocks the ability of serum testosterone to induce a healthy hormonal signal. It does not matter how much serum free testosterone is available if excess estrogen is competing for the same cellular receptor sites.
Estrogen can also increase the production of SHBG, which binds the active free testosterone into an inactive "bound testosterone." Bound testosterone cannot be picked up by testosterone receptors on cell membranes. For testosterone to produce long-lasting, libido-enhancing effects, it must be kept in the "free" form (not bound to SHBG) in the bloodstream. It is also necessary to suppress excess estrogen because this hormone can compete for testosterone receptor sites in the sex centers of the brain and the genitals.
Restoring youthful hormone balance can have a significant impact on male sexuality (99-102).
Testosterone and the Heart
Normal aging results in the gradual weakening of the heart, even in the absence of significant coronary artery disease. If nothing else kills the elderly male, his heart just stops beating at some point.
Testosterone is a muscle-building hormone, and there are many testosterone-receptor sites in the heart (57). The weakening of the heart muscle can sometimes be attributed to testosterone deficiency (103-108).
Testosterone is not only responsible for maintaining heart muscle protein synthesis, it is also a promoter of coronary artery dilation (109-113) and helps to maintain healthy cholesterol levels (81-114).
There are an ever-increasing number of studies indicating an association between high testosterone and low cardiovascular disease rates in men. In the majority of patients, symptoms and EKG measurements improve when low testosterone levels are corrected. One study showed that blood flow to the heart improved 68.8% in those receiving testosterone therapy. In China, doctors are successfully treating angina with testosterone therapy (9, 115, 116).
The following list represents the negative effects of low testosterone on cardiovascular disease:
Those with cardiovascular disease should have their blood tested for free testosterone and estrogen. Some men (with full cooperation from their physicians) may be able to stop taking expensive drugs to stimulate cardiac output, lower cholesterol, and keep blood pressure under control if they correct a testosterone deficit or a testosterone-estrogen imbalance. A compelling study of 1100 men showed that those with serum dehydroepiandrosterone-sulfate (DHEA-S) in the lowest quarter (< 1.6 mcg/mL) were significantly more likely to incur symptoms of heart disease (295), and in a review of several studies, other authors have confirmed this association (296). Dehydroepiandro-sterone (DHEA) is produced by the adrenal gland and is a precursor hormone for the manufacture of testosterone (see the DHEA Replacement Therapy protocol).
- Cholesterol, fibrinogen, triglycerides, and insulin levels increase
- Coronary artery elasticity diminishes (30-33)
- Blood pressure rises
- Human growth hormone (HGH) declines (weakening the heart muscle)
- Abdominal fat increases (increasing the risk of heart attack)
Despite numerous studies substantiating the beneficial effects of testosterone therapy in treating heart disease, conventional cardiologists continue to overlook the important role this hormone plays in keeping their cardiac patients alive (9, 30, 31, 77, 93, 111-113, 115, 116, 261-270).
Testosterone and the Prostate Gland
Many doctors will tell you that testosterone causes prostate disease. The published scientific literature indicates otherwise.
As readers of Life Extension Magazine learned in late 1997, estrogen has been identified as a primary culprit in the development of benign prostatic hyperplasia (BPH). Estrogen has been shown to bind to SHBG in the prostate gland and cause the proliferation of epithelial cells in the prostate (124, 182-184). This is corroborated by the fact that as men develop benign prostate enlargement, their levels of free testosterone plummet, although their estrogen levels remain the same or are rising. As previously discussed, aging men tend to convert their testosterone into estrogen. The published evidence shows that higher serum levels of testosterone are not a risk factor for developing benign prostate disease (8, 36, 41, 117-137).
The major concern that has kept men from restoring their testosterone to youthful levels is the fear of prostate cancer. The theory is that since most prostate cancer cell lines need testosterone to proliferate, it is better not to replace the testosterone that is lost with aging. The problem with this theory is that most men who develop prostate cancer have low levels of tes-tosterone, and the majority of published studies show that serum testosterone levels do not affect one's risk for contracting prostate cancer.
Because there is such a strong perception that any augmentation of testosterone can increase the risk of prostate cancer, we did a MEDLINE search on all the published studies relating to serum testosterone and prostate cancer. The abstracts at the end of this protocol provide quotations from the published literature as it relates to the issue of whether testosterone causes prostate disease. Of the 27 MEDLINE studies found, five studies indicated that men with higher testosterone levels had a greater incidence of prostate cancer, whereas 21 studies showed that testosterone was not a risk factor and one study was considered neutral. Before starting a testosterone replacement program, men should have a serum PSA test and a digital rectal exam to rule out prostate cancer. Nothing is risk free. A small minority of men with low testosterone and prostate cancer will not have an elevated PSA or palpable lesion detectable by digital rectal exam. If these men use supplemental testosterone, they risk an acute flare-up in their disease state. That is why PSA monitoring is so important every 30-45 days during the first 6 months of any type of testosterone augmentation therapy. If an underlying prostate cancer is detected because of testosterone therapy, it is usually treatable by nonsurgical means.
Please remember that testosterone does not cause acute prostate cancer, but if you have existing prostate cancer and do not know it, testosterone administration is likely to boost PSA sharply and provide your doctor with a quick diagnosis of prostate cancer (and an opportunity for very early treatment). We acknowledge that some aging men will not want to take this risk.
As stated above, the MEDLINE score was 21 to 5 against the theory that testosterone plays a role in the development of prostate cancer. None of these studies took into account the prostate cancer prevention effects for men who take lycopene, selenium, and vitamins A and E, nor did they factor in possible prostate disease preventives such as saw palmetto, nettle, soy, and pygeum (42-44, 145-170, 172).
In the book, Maximize Your Vitality & Potency, a persuasive case is made that testosterone and DHEA actually protect against the development of both benign and malignant prostate disease. Dr. Wright also points out that natural therapies, such as saw palmetto, nettle, and pygeum, provide a considerable degree of protection against the alleged negative effects that higher levels of testosterone might have on the prostate gland.
We eagerly await the results of more studies, but the fear of developing prostate cancer in the future should not be a reason to deprive your body today of the life-saving and life-enhancing benefits of restoring a youthful hormone balance.
Once a man has prostate cancer, testosterone therapy cannot be recommended because most prostate cancer cells use testosterone as a growth promoter. Regrettably, this denies prostate cancer patients the wonderful benefits of testosterone therapy. Men with severe BPH should approach testosterone replacement cautiously. It would be prudent for those with BPH who are taking testosterone replacement therapy to also use the drug Proscar (finasteride) to inhibit 5-alpha-reductase levels, thereby suppressing the formation of dihydrotestosterone (DHT) (171-182). DHT is 10 times more potent than testosterone in promoting prostate growth, and suppressing DHT is a proven therapy in treating benign prostate enlargement. Saw palmetto extract suppresses some DHT in the prostate gland, but its effectiveness in alleviating symptoms of BPH probably has more to do with
Note: Men with severe BPH may also consider using the drug Arimidex (0.5 mg twice a week) to suppress excess levels of estrogen. Estrogen can worsen BPH and supplemental testosterone can elevate estrogen if an aromatase-inhibiting drug such as Arimidex is not used.
- Its blocking of alpha-adrenergic receptor sites on the sphincter muscle surrounding the urethra. (This is how the drug Hytrin works.)
- Its inhibition of estrogen binding to prostate cells (such as nettle)
- Its inhibition of the enzyme 3-ketosteroid (which causes the binding of DHT to prostate cells)
- Its anti-inflammatory effect on the prostate
It is unfortunate that many people still think that restoring testosterone to youthful levels will increase the risk of prostate disease. This misconception has kept many men from availing themselves of this life-enhancing and life-saving hormone.
Although it is clear that excess estrogen causes benign prostate enlargement, the evidence for excess estrogen's role in the development of prostate cancer is uncertain (8, 41, 117-134, 182-217, 236). Some studies show that elevated estrogen is associated with increased prostate cancer risk, while other studies contradict this finding. For more information on testosterone, estrogen, and the prostate gland, refer to the February 1999 issue of Life Extension Magazine (182-217, 306).
Testosterone and Depression
A consistent finding in the scientific literature is that testosterone replacement therapy produces an increased feeling of well-being. Published studies show that low testosterone correlates with symptoms of depression and other psychological disorders (94-97, 272).
A common side effect of prescription antidepressant drugs is the suppression of libido. Those with depression either accept this drug-induced reduction in quality of life, or get off the antidepressant drugs so they can at least have a somewhat normal sex life. If more psychiatrists tested their patients' blood for free testosterone and prescribed natural testosterone therapies to those with low free testosterone, the need for libido-suppressing antidepressant drugs could be reduced or eliminated. As previously described, tes-tosterone replacement often enhances libido, the opposite effect of most prescription antidepressants.
One study showed that patients with major depression experienced improvement that was equal to that achieved with standard antidepressant drugs (97).
Androderm is one of several natural testosterone-replacement therapies that can be prescribed by doctors. A 12-month clinical trial using this FDA-approved drug resulted in a statistically significant reduction in the depression score (6.9 before versus 3.9 after). Also noted were highly significant decreases in fatigue: from 79% before the patch to only 10% after 12 months (218).
According to Jonathan Wright, M.D., co-author of Maximize Your Vitality & Potency, the following effects have been reported in response to low testosterone levels (305):
The above feelings can all be clinical symptoms of depression, and testosterone replacement therapy has been shown to alleviate these conditions. Testosterone thus has exciting therapeutic potential in the treatment of depression in men.
- Loss of ability to concentrate
- Moodiness and emotionality
- Touchiness and irritability
- Great timidity
- Feeling weak
- Inner unrest
- Memory failure
- Reduced intellectual agility
- Passive attitudes
- General tiredness
- Reduced interest in surroundings
Testosterone and Mental Decline
Evidence indicates that low levels of testosterone may contribute to memory impairment and increase the vulnerability of the brain to Alzheimer's and related disorders. Beta-amyloid, a peptide that may accumulate in certain regions of the aging brain, is implicated in the development of Alzheimer's disease. Researchers have found that testosterone exerts neuroprotective benefits from the effects of toxic beta-amyloid. An article published in Brain Research describes a study in which cultured neurons were exposed to beta-amyloid in the presence of testosterone. The resulting toxicity from beta-amyloid was significantly reduced by testosterone through a rapid estrogen-independent mechanism (317).
Other researchers have explored the mechanism by which testosterone may exert its protective effect in Alzheimer's disease. Their research in animals shows that testosterone decreases the secretion of harmful beta-amyloid and increases the secretion of the non-amyloidogenic APP fragment, sbetaAPPalpha, indicating that testosterone supplementation in elderly men may be beneficial in the treatment of Alzheimer's (318, 319).
Another published study examined the neuroprotective effects of estradiol, testosterone, epi-testosterone, and methyl-testosterone in neurons induced to undergo apoptosis by serum deprivation. Physiologic concentrations of testosterone were found to be neuroprotective, similar to estradiol. Methyl-testosterone showed an effect that was delayed in time, suggesting that a metabolite may be the active agent. Epi-testosterone showed a slight neuroprotective effect but not through the androgen receptor. The authors concluded that androgens may be of therapeutic value against Alzheimer's disease in aging males (302).
Researchers in Oxford, England found that lower levels of testosterone were present in men with Alz-heimer's as opposed to controls. These results were independent of confounding factors such as age, body mass index, education, smoking, alcohol abuse, and endocrine therapy. The authors recommended further studies to determine whether low levels of total tes-tosterone precede or follow the onset of Alzheimer's disease.
Testosterone and Aging
We know that many of the degenerative diseases of aging in men, such as Type-II diabetes, osteoporosis, and cardiovascular disease, are related to a testosterone deficiency. We also know that common characteristics of middle age and older age, such as depression, abdominal fat deposition, muscle atrophy, low energy, and cognitive decline, are also associated with less than optimal levels of free testosterone (58, 219).
A consistent pattern that deals with fundamental aging shows that low testosterone causes excess production of a dangerous hormone called cortisol. Some antiaging experts call cortisol a "death hormone" because of the multiple degenerative effects that it produces. Some of these effects are immune dysfunction, brain cell injury, and arterial wall damage.
A group of scientists conducted two double-blind studies in which they administered supplemental testosterone to groups of aging men and observed the typical responses of lower levels of cholesterol, glucose, and triglycerides, reductions in blood pressure, and decreased abdominal fat mass. The scientists showed that excess cortisol suppressed testosterone and growth hormone production and that the administration of testosterone acted as a "shield" against the overproduction of cortisol in the adrenal gland. Another study published in 1999 on testosterone and atherosclerosis in men showed a statistically significant correlation between low testosterone and excess serum insulin. It was noted that an elevated estradiol to testosterone ratio is connected with insulin resistance.
It is important to point out that testosterone is an anabolic (or protein building) hormone while cortisol is a catabolic hormone that breaks down proteins in the body. Normal aging consists of a progressive decrease in free testosterone with a marked increase in cortisol. As men age past 40, cortisol begins to dominate, and the catabolic effects associated with growing older begin to dominate.
These findings have significant implications in the battle to maintain youthful hormone balance for the purpose of staving off normal aging and its associated degenerative diseases.
09-15-2005, 07:33 AM
Thanks for the great input, AGELESS!
here's a link to the LEF Male Hormone Replacement protocol.
been checking out the HRT options here in my Major Metropolitan Area; so far, my wife & I have uncovered ONE endocrinologist and ONE urologist who say anything about HRT in their Yellow-Pages listings. I spoke to the endocrinologist's officce yesterday, and the price tag for an initial visit, lab-work (no lab services available, thanks), and one follow-up visit runs $500-$650. No insurance. Further follow-up visits run $95-$125 each.
Don't know how this stacks up to other areas - given the enormous number of MDs, clinics, hospitals, med schools, etc, it seems telling that so far we've found only 2 MDs willing to do HRT work w/ men.
10-04-2005, 09:39 PM
great read ageless. how do they end up controlling the test conversion to estrogen?
10-06-2005, 01:50 AM
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10-07-2005, 09:26 AM
i hope i can look like that when i'm older. !
10-07-2005, 10:03 AM
10-07-2005, 11:44 AM
Bodywizard, when you say no insurance do you mean no insurance accepted or that you have no insurance? It has been my understanding that if the Doctor orders the labs most insurances cover it.
10-07-2005, 07:21 PM
There are online docs that will do HRT. Just Google.
10-07-2005, 09:46 PM
it would be like the endless cycle...
10-08-2005, 01:39 PM
hey ageless, is this dr. blackman an "endocrinologist" i see the sports medicine sciences. i'm just wondering if an "endocrinologist" is what i would seek. thanks
10-08-2005, 01:46 PM
JK - yes, an endo. is the type of doc. you should look for.
10-09-2005, 02:49 PM
well, i just mean for "our" kind of purposes. maybe on the higher side of replacement. i've seen mention of some sort of naturopath/homepath? alternative medicine? specialists that might be more understanding of these concepts...
10-09-2005, 07:38 PM
That might be a place to look.
But, they still have to have an FDA number to prescribe an anabolic steroid. So, that means that have to be careful and not get their liscence (etc.) revoked.
I doubt you'll find anyone that will prescribe 500 mg/wk. Unless you just don't respond at a lower dose.
I do know of an online doc. that says 300-400 mg/wk is preferred for them.
10-15-2005, 11:06 PM
Where is a reputable place to purchase HGH with a script? I have a friend who is starting HRT and he is looking for a good buy since his stupid insurance won't cover it. If a mod thinks that this is source posting then delete this.
It's crazy how HRT for men is looked upon with disgust but women can get all kinds of hormones with no questions asked. I had to compile a metric assload of info for my friend before his Doc would help him out. Even to get his T levels and IGF levels tested was a pain. This is crazy.
10-16-2005, 08:23 AM
Ageless - How much do you pay for HGH? Which brand are you using? Also, how much per month does everything cost (lab, test, Adex, HGH). There aren't any prices on the site. I appreciate all of your input.
10-17-2005, 12:54 AM
Are you older guys thinking of doing HRT just to put on some muscle? At your age? Get over it.
10-17-2005, 10:23 AM
Originally Posted by az2u
You MUST be kidding.....my friend, HRT is for a better quality of life. Putting on alittle muscle is just a side effect. It does not matter who you are or how old you are, you still must exercise to add muscle.
As for hormone balance, it has helped with my depression, sleeping problems, libido and all the fat in my mid-section.
I suppose I could go back to drinking and popping prescription pills, and just sit around and wait to die, but for me thats not an option. Life if a gift, I dont want to waste it.
I would like to know more about you. You have 43 posts and over 5 days on this board. You must know something!!
"Get Over It" - Thanks for the advice and support. I'll just try to get thru another day.
10-17-2005, 08:28 PM
Say az2u,, we are hear to share knowledge, joke around a little bit, have some fun. We are all here in a common interest, weightlifting, building muscle is a side effect of that. Maybe you know something I dont and if so I would like to hear it. Peace!
10-18-2005, 01:19 AM
I'm sorry if I ruffled some feathers. I've been lifting weights for around 24 years non-stop. I like to go to the gym and throw around the weights just as much as any person half my age. Back in the mid 80s I used to train w/a guy who was 2nd overall in Mr.California. I have also trained w/power lifters. Reading some of the posts I thought some of you guys were inquiring about HRT due to its muscle building potential. If I presumed wrong than I apologize. I just think at our age(any age) we shouldn't be looking for some artificial enhancement. If you can't get any bigger busting your ass... it's ok.
10-18-2005, 07:58 AM
Thanks guy, I appreciate that. Often attitudes are contagious. Your apology makes me feel better about this board. Sure, by reading some of the posts a guy gets the impression that there are many who just pop mass quantities of the latest supps to build, and there is that arrogant element here, but there is also the mature and conservative element here which is worth preserving. Ageless just made some valuable contributions in this thread and obviously took your glib comment into account, as did I. Peace
10-18-2005, 09:43 AM
I should probably let this go, but I still think you dont get it.
HRT - Hormone REPLACEment therapy - replace means to put back low or lack of...in my case it is HGH & Free testsoterone. My estrogen was off the scale.
I started HRT and stopped drinking (love Capt. Morgan) that supplement built me one great AB. I know it sounds like I am sensitive..hell your probably right.
Im my mind...artificial enhancement is Pamela Anderson!!
My intention is to help the poor guy that busts his ass day after day and all he gets for his effort is sweat.
At age 40 or so, he should run a full blood profile...to see whats missing...fix it...dont accept it as "normal for your age". Thats total BS.
Az2u - dont take this wrong, but get out of the 80's - just do some research - as there is more to this than putting on muscle.
At 61 I found exercise without proper hormone balance is alittle like making love without a partner...a waste of time LOL
Last edited by AGELESS; 10-18-2005 at 03:18 PM.
10-18-2005, 07:41 PM
I like your thinking.
"I suppose I could go back to drinking and popping prescription pills, and just sit around and wait to die, but for me thats not an option. Life if a gift, I dont want to waste it."
Originally Posted by AGELESS
10-18-2005, 07:47 PM
Ageless, I assume you've gained a lot of muscle since started HRT, no?
Knowbull, I'm surprised that you think there is a lot of arrogance at AM b/c I think it is the opposite. People are definitely gung ho AAS, but the only time I really notice a harsh or superior attitude is when people expect others to do their research for them, and when people ask stupid questions that reveal that they don't know what they are talking about as they give others bad advice or are about to begin a cycle that can be dangerous if done without proper knowledge and planning.
And it seems that most people say the supps are not the key to success; training, diet, and dedication are.
10-18-2005, 07:51 PM
I'm with you on this. There's a big difference between anti-aging medicine and the use of hormones to compete in athletics. Medicine has come a long way. At the dawn of civilization the average life expectancy was probably around 40. I don't know how much HRT will extend a person's life, but it certainly can improve the quality of what they have. It's not how long you live, but how you live it long.Originally Posted by AGELESS
I can see from your pictures that you work hard at staying in shape. There are many on HRT who don't come close.
10-18-2005, 08:25 PM
Ageless is right to get pissed. It's all too common to hear such rhetoric about male hormone supplementation. Giving women hormones is accepted as a no-brainer in society and has been that way for years...but if a man asks for it...he's looked upon as some kind of drug addict or said to be trying to act like a teenager (trying to put on muscle at an old age). It's all bull****. My Father has low test levels and he was told "it's normal for your age". But after giving him some S1+ he has a newfound love....it's called LIFE. He is off the couch and in the gym. More energy, more alert etc. Another friend of mine has the same story and he recently (FINALLY) convinced his Doc (with my help) that HRT is in order.
I puke everytime I hear this sort of crap spewed "HRT for men is only arrogence". That is pure bull**** and with about 15 minutes of research (providing you can read) you will find out why it is necessary in most cases. I'm 41. I'm going to get my T and IGF tested just to see where I am and get a data point. I'm with Ageless on this one....why not live the best quality of life you can into your golden years. That is what I call a no-brainer. I'm not going out with 30 years of limited mobility or strength crapping in a diaper if I have another option.
10-18-2005, 08:28 PM
The majority of persons on HRT don't even belong to a gym (sorry no study)
its about quality of life or lack thereof
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10-30-2005, 04:43 PM
Not to mention that TRT promotes cardiovascular, bone, and prostate health (contrary to popular belief).
10-30-2005, 10:23 PM
agreed....great post. 54 here. I have a friend I tell the same thing to all the time. I try to tell him all the time what is meant by HRT...he just never gets it, though he says he does.Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf
10-30-2005, 10:24 PM
Yep, studies are showing that estrogen is more the culprit.Originally Posted by Brennon
11-10-2005, 10:28 PM
I never thought I would find someone here less informed that most doctors as it relates to HRT but voila here you are!!Originally Posted by az2u
I am 43 and for many years was a lazy , slovenly , fat , cigarette puffing slob. Unfortunately I didnt start lifting etc when I was younger. Almost three years ago I quit smoking and completely changed my lifestyle. I work out 6 days a week. I eat super healthy 6 of 7 days of the week. I have went from 250+ lbs 30 some % BF to 192 15% today.
About a year ago I noticed that I just had no drive left, no motiviation at the gym, work or anywhere. Very atypical for me as I am a very dominant figure at work adn very driven. Sex drive dropped off etc. Sleep was also horrible. Sleep study showed I wake up over 50 times a night. My doctor immediatley diagnosed as depression and wanted to give me pills. Now I have nothing against them if needed BUT
I had started to read about andropause and after guding a doctor through the appropriate tests I found I was legitimately hypogonadal. I have been on androl gel for a year now and my life is changed!! I sleep better, have focus and drive, libido is back and I feel like a young man again.
People like ageless here make me know that I can be a young man for a long long damn time. That "peopl;e our age" **** you throw is not for me. And you know what YES I do want it to help me build some muscle. Perhaps I misunderstand but for a guy like me in his 40s wiht low natural test its virtually impossilble for me to add muscle. Now I can
ok vent over lol
11-11-2005, 12:48 AM
what he said and
people should be able to do whatever the hell they want as long as it doesn't directly affect others
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11-11-2005, 10:31 PM
Word up Jcam.
Keep it up bro!
11-12-2005, 12:14 AM
the recomp on test is great... with 3000 clean calories I could play nothing but Xbox all day and be leaner the following week... ha, I can prove it too.
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01-05-2006, 09:34 AM
Fantastic post on HRT - ageless looks unreal. I am currently considering HRT but im only 32. I just wonder if I start at this age how long can I live dependant on steriods? There seems to be no studies on this.
01-05-2006, 02:05 PM
May want to pick up a copy of Natural Hormonal Enhancement by Rob ***in. It is a great book on how to maximize good hormones naturally through diet and excersize. It is the best book I have ever read on sports nutrition. I recommend it before getting into exogenous hormone replacement, especially at 32.Originally Posted by woolfy
01-15-2006, 06:56 AM
longer... normal or upper normal range of testosterone will help the immune system and ward off sickness and diseaseOriginally Posted by woolfy
(we aren't talking about superphysiclogical doses here )
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