Older guy thinking of prohormones ...

ctay

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Hi, I'm 42 and been hitting the weights hard for nearly three years after stopping for a couple (shoulder and elbow issues) Have perhaps 7 or so years weight lifting behind me. I'm a roid and PH virgin and have been thinking about some mild to moderate strength PH for cutting and strength gain. Muscle mass gain is not a priority, but I won't shrug it off.

Considering the Ortasan-A/Furazan or 11-OXO types, likely solo towards the higher end of dosages for max effect. Not too keen on stacking just yet as I prefer to avoid Methyls right now for a first time run. Though I'm open to what makes sense. I've read tons of FAQs and articles the last two weeks, I'm aware of cycle support and PCT.

Usual supps include Creatine, lots of BCAAs: 8:1:1, Beta Alanine and a host of Stims I try here and there: ECA, straight Caff, MRM Driven, White Flood, and currently Jack3D. Not all in a stack of course. Fish oils, vits and mins.

In the gym five days a week - 75-90 mins, usually combination of mainly compound movements and finishing with 15-25 mins of cardio- steady and Hiit. I prefer lifting heavy, but not too much to risk form or further injury. I really would like to break some plateaus, so strength gain would be great.

Nutrition is about 98% clean and controlled, except for the occasional slice of pizza. Typically keep cals to around 2400-2500. I could go lower, but I don't want to lose the muscle I got the last few years nor slow down my metabolism.

In a similar situation, would you consider a PH or two to cut better, by lowering cals further and hopefully holding onto the muscles or just avoid them, perhaps for now till I get my BF% lower, which I do have a lot to lose - currently around 22-24%.

Feedback would be Awesome!
 
MacTech

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Pro-hormones are not worth the trouble at your age. You risk shutting down your normal HPTA functioning if you're not careful. PCT sucks and the reduced libido keeps me from doing any more PHs. My GF hates PCT time.

However, Epistane would be a good one to start with.

Make sure you're doing everything else right, which it looks like you are.
 
EasyEJL

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In a similar situation, would you consider a PH or two to cut better, by lowering cals further and hopefully holding onto the muscles or just avoid them, perhaps for now till I get my BF% lower, which I do have a lot to lose - currently around 22-24%.

Feedback would be Awesome!
add cardio, clip calories a litte. get bodyfat down to the 15ish range before bothering with the prohormones.
 

ctay

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Both good responses and what I'm looking for, thanks. If I were going PH it would be rather conservative to see how the body handles it. PCT would be Nolva, rather than something OTC. Doing plenty of cardio, which I hate BTW, forgot to mention my 4x week morning runs. Just want to make sure I dont eat up the muscle I have. Took a couple years to pack on, but the fat came on with it, so cutting worries me of the opposite effect of eating muscle with the fat. Anyway ... perhaps I'll just stick to ECAs early morning, Jack3d/White Flood midday pre-workout and wait till later in the year.

Anyone is free to pop in and change my mind though ... haha.
 
BBB

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I'm 61 and I still run some the milder ph's from time to time. If the proper precautions are taken libido and shut down are not real problems.

P.S. I would avoid Epi at your age. Epi targets AR beta receptors which have an antiprolific effect on the prostate. You actually want to target AR alpha receptors. These are the ones that cause the prostate to grow.
 
MacTech

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You could always use some Clen, as it's anti-catabolic and slightly anabolic.
You will workout harder and get stronger too.

Too much cardio, like anything is bad.
 
EasyEJL

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If I were going PH it would be rather conservative to see how the body handles it. PCT would be Nolva, rather than something OTC.
honestly, I've never thought this approach made sense. Do a cycle that will actually reach your goal, instead of dipping your feet in. Because if you just test the waters, that guarantees you'll do another cycle if it doesn't all go to hell. Whereas if you have a reasonable goal a single cycle could hit, then you may as well take whatever would help you reach it. Also, outside of the legality issue, a plain testosterone cycle is likely a smarter move particularly being on the older side.
 
MacTech

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I'm 61 and I still run some the milder ph's from time to time. If the proper precautions are taken libido and shut down are not real problems.
I have run them too, and I like Epi. But still always felt like crap in PCT.
 

ctay

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honestly, I've never thought this approach made sense. Do a cycle that will actually reach your goal, instead of dipping your feet in.
Totally get your point. No sense doing it if the end result (or goal) is minimal. Can't learn to swim in shallow waters.
 

ctay

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You could always use some Clen, as it's anti-catabolic and slightly anabolic.
You will workout harder and get stronger too.

Too much cardio, like anything is bad.
Now Clen is interesting and could be something to either cycle or alternate with my ECA, but I read some years ago it was linked to enlarging the heart or damaging valves. Need to do some more reading ...
 

ctay

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P.S. I would avoid Epi at your age. Epi targets AR beta receptors which have an antiprolific effect on the prostate. You actually want to target AR alpha receptors. These are the ones that cause the prostate to grow.
Out of curiosity, is this PH Classification I found the same you are referring to:

Class I = binds to androgen receptor
Class II = does not

Class I

Boldenone based - 1,4AD & Bold
Progestin based - (similar to trenbolone) - Trenadrol & Trenaplex
Dienolone based - (again similar to tren) - Mdien
Mepitiostane (Thioderon) based - Epistane & Clones (like Havoc & so on so forth)
Desoxymethyltestosterone/DMT (Madol) based phs - Pheraplex & clones
Testosterone
DHT (Dihydrotestosterone) based phs - M5AA

Class II (healthier for the prostate?)

Masteron (Dromostanolone) based - Superdrol & Clones
Oral Turinabol (Dehydrochlormethyltestosterone) based - Halodrol & Clones
Dianabol (methandrostenolone) based - M1,4ADD, M1T, 1-T, Methyl XT
Winstrol (stanozolol) based - Winztrol, Orastan-A, Furaguno, etc
Furazabol (miotolan) based - Furazadrol etc
Progesterone based - Revolt, Propadrol, Max LMG
Clostebol based - Chlorodrol, Oxyguno
4-AD
 
Presa

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I'm 45 and have dabbled in what's out there. Why avoid methyls? IMO liver issues are overblown at reasonable dosages, and besides, non- methyls still adversely affect lipids and BP (which are the REAL concerns at our age). Superdrol and it's clones are still the best bang for the buck as long as your cycles are short and you don't chase the "more is better" dosing philosophy. Read Unreal machines Superdrol post on this site and go for a four week, 10-20mg ride!!
 

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Will likely look into a Orastan-A (Katanadrol 2.0?) stacked with Tren, Epi, Sdrol or Hdrol. Ora on the higher end, Methyls on the lower to mid dose, perhaps. Need to get everything in order and will likely start in mid to late April.

Like to get down another pant size or two before going the PH route. Not sure if doing PH now is a great idea and may only add to the stockiness I'm actually trying to drop. It's more of the cutting aspect I was looking for, but as several have pointed out, that's not the best goal for doing PH.

For now, I've got a friend who brought me some Isa-Test and Erase to stack. Appears to have worked decent for him adding strength and supporting his cut. I'll try that through March alongside my ECA and Jack3d and re-evaluate from there.
 
HondaV65

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I'm 49 but I do not feel old at all.

There's a few options you might consider ...

1. Ostarine - Not a steroid, not a pro-hormone. I'm on it now (fifth week) and I have to say, after I boosted the dosage up to around 35mgs a day ... it's working awesomely. Man, I am getting larger and fighting to keep my weight down now because I'm just trying to recomp here. Strength is way up. I don't feel shutdown at all - my libido is still the raging brush fire of barbarian sweat and agression that it's always been! I will run this compound again many times in the future - ZERO SIDES so far. One caution though - it's still a new compound so who knows what unseen things it can be doing. Whatever - I've lived a long and bombastic life so I'm living it up at this point!

2. Epistane - Yeah sure - it'll shut you down over the long haul ... so don't do a cycle for longer than 4 weeks. I noticed results immediately with this stuff - first day I used it ... it was AWESOME!! I only did a short two-week cycle, was not shutdown in the least at the end of it - and gained about 7 pounds if I recall correctly - and even got a bit leaner.

3. Androhard - isn't it a pro-hormone? Well, it converts to DHT in the body but many describe it as very mild and it's non-methylated.

At my age - I focus on compounds that I can run for short periods of time that will either have no impact on my libido (like Ostarine) or actually enhance it (like Epistane and, from what I've heard - Androhard). I don't stay on cycle too long - any shrinkage of my love spuds is totally unacceptable. I'm not worried about having kids but I DO LOVE SEX and like to have it often.

Also - for PCT consider Torem - it doesn't kill my libido and just feels great to run. I almost consider running it "stand alone" - it will increase testosterone. Great stuff and makes easy PCT.
 
MacTech

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I'm 49 but I do not feel old at all.
Ostarine sounds interesting. I am going to have to look into that.

I feel a boost from 10mg of Epi on the very first dose. Never considered running it for just two weeks.
 

ctay

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Thanks. Epi is on my short list. I was actually thinking of a 3-4 week cycle versus anything more. Seems like many PHs take a few weeks to start showing results, hence the 6-8 week cycles. If Epi starts quick, a nice 3 or so weeks should do the trick. I read Toremifene may be better than Nolva, but Nolva is the gold standard. Worth more reading. Can't find too much about Ostarine, particularly availability, but I just starting looking. Lots of good stuff to consider ...
 
HondaV65

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Ostarine sounds interesting. I am going to have to look into that.

I feel a boost from 10mg of Epi on the very first dose. Never considered running it for just two weeks.
My first dose of Epi was on my "squat and deadlift" day. It was absolutely awesome - and only 10mg.

I've considered the possibility of "pulsing" Epi ... ONE DAY PER WEEK (Squat Day) ... LOL

That's my hardest day - I need the strength to be there - and the focus to be there too because at my age ... one false move with a squat and I'd be on the ground screaming ... "Help! I've fallen and can't get up!!" :yikes:
 
MacTech

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I've considered the possibility of "pulsing" Epi ... ONE DAY PER WEEK (Squat Day) ... LOL
I have done the same thing with SuperDrone. The longest I could take that was for a week before I felt so lethargic. Great strength gains, terrible laziness.
 

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I'm 41 and a virgin sticker i,m running test enth 500mg a week . Today will be week 2.5 not quite sure it,s hitting me yet but next week i should be in full effect.Omg tho the pain after stick is really bad on day 2 and 3 after stick..
 
ambulldog

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I'm 41 and a virgin sticker i,m running test enth 500mg a week . Today will be week 2.5 not quite sure it,s hitting me yet but next week i should be in full effect.Omg tho the pain after stick is really bad on day 2 and 3 after stick..
ah the beauty of script test. never ever the slightest discomfort post inj
 
TheDarkHalf

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At your age, i'd recommend a GHRP-6 (growth hormone releasing peptide) and CJC-1295 (growth hormone releasing hormone) cycle.

It's MUCH cheaper than HGH, and more effective. GHRP & GHRH are synergistic (think 2+2 = 10) and utilizes your body's natural GH, where HGH you're just shooting exogenous GH.

You'd see a ton of benefits from this. Better sleep, anti-aging properties, better joints, etc.

The more I read about GHRP & GHRH cycles - the more I think everyone should be on them....I have yet to see a downside. And there are much less side effects from GH than steroids (and the side effects from GH takes YEARS to develop - IE gh gut) and you don't need a PCT.

That being said you can use GHRP & GHRH while on a cycle of PH/AAS as well as carry it into PCT to help solidify and potentially increase gains.
 

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At your age, i'd recommend a GHRP-6 (growth hormone releasing peptide) and CJC-1295 (growth hormone releasing hormone) .
Seems most popular with the life extension folks. Think the issue with me lies in the availability and delivery, not a needle kinda guy. Also, it seems most folks using also run it along side PHs or other gear. Seems like alot of stuff going on. Likely beyond what I want to invest in at this time, perhaps in a few years.

Now, the SARMs look a bit interesting, particularly S-4 and Osta. I'm taking all the info into consideration and wont directly dismiss anything, just need to plan things out right and make sure I got all the right support on the ready.
 
MacTech

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Now, the SARMs look a bit interesting, particularly S-4 and Osta.
I am going to place on an order for some Ostarine.

I too, am not a needle kind of guy, as in my early childhood, I was getting way too many of them stuck in me. Then back in the mid 80s, on my one and only AAS cycle I developed an abscess in my glute from one of the shots I gave to myself. We didn't know anything about PCT back then and my experience after stopping the cycle was nothing short of disastrous.
 
TheDarkHalf

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Seems most popular with the life extension folks. Think the issue with me lies in the availability and delivery, not a needle kinda guy. Also, it seems most folks using also run it along side PHs or other gear. Seems like alot of stuff going on. Likely beyond what I want to invest in at this time, perhaps in a few years.

Now, the SARMs look a bit interesting, particularly S-4 and Osta. I'm taking all the info into consideration and wont directly dismiss anything, just need to plan things out right and make sure I got all the right support on the ready.
you can get 2-3 months worth for less than $200 and is easily available online and is not illegal/regulated by the FDA. And you do use a needle...but it's an insulin needle and a sub-q injection...not IM. You can definitely run it solo and still see some nice benefits from it.

and definitely look into osta. got two bottles....50mg/ml @ 15ml per bottle for 100.
 
HondaV65

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LOL ... I'd have no problem doing "needles" but there's not a chance in hell I'd be able to hide that from little Mrs. Honda. Orals are one thing ... but most people not associated with this lifestyle look at needles as hard core drug abuse.

I'm sure she'd freak out.
 

bigbumpkin

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I have found that 4 me the DHT compounds actually enhance my libido.BUT if u worry about hairline guys shy away from these but i have run them at least half a dozen times with no issues
 

ctay

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LOL ... I'd have no problem doing "needles" but there's not a chance in hell I'd be able to hide that from little Mrs. Honda.
Yep, have no desire to explain why I have insulin needles delivered to the house, being that she tends to open all the nice packages. Tabs can be explained away, but ampules and syringes is just asking for a world of hurt. Don't care to get calls from family and "people who care" worried about me, because no matter what I say, it will spread like the plague.
 
MacTech

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I have found that 4 me the DHT compounds actually enhance my libido.BUT if u worry about hairline guys shy away from these but i have run them at least half a dozen times with no issues
Which compounds are you referring to?

No hairline issues here, as I don't have one. I have a tough time keeping up with my g/f, so libido is very important.
 

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I took dplex and was a horny ass by end of second week and had baseball bat between my legs lol
 
rulk22

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I took dplex and was a horny ass by end of second week and had baseball bat between my legs lol
Androhard will do that to you as well, and I saw zero shedding while using.

To OP, Epi is a methylated PH/DS, but is usefull for cutting and recomping, but I just thought id mention it. Have you seen any of the write-ups for our Androseries? I think Androlean or Androhard would be exactly what your looking for. Check it out if you havent already-
 
EasyEJL

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LOL ... I'd have no problem doing "needles" but there's not a chance in hell I'd be able to hide that from little Mrs. Honda. Orals are one thing ... but most people not associated with this lifestyle look at needles as hard core drug abuse.

I'm sure she'd freak out.
Get a blood test, be found to have low testosterone. Work with one of the crazy anti-aging clinics that will prescribe 300 mg a week or more of testosterone. She can't complain if its prescription.
 

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LOL ... I'd have no problem doing "needles" but there's not a chance in hell I'd be able to hide that from little Mrs. Honda. Orals are one thing ... but most people not associated with this lifestyle look at needles as hard core drug abuse.

I'm sure she'd freak out.
You talking about script meds or nonscript meds? Nonscript I'd understand the freaking out. I'm on script test. If my current med doesn't do the job, I told my wife I'd go to inj. She said she'd have no problem pinning me. I wonder if she'd make the pin payback time for anytime I ever pissed her off...:lew:
 
BBB

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I would stay away form Epi. It targets ER beta receptors which have an anti-prolific effect on the prostate. Blocking ER beta is not what use older guys want. I have plenty of research to support this.

I would also stay away from AndroHard. It is basically DHT. There is a lot of research showing that DHT is bad for the prostate, especially in older folks.

If you want something mild and non-methyl try 11 Spray.

The body wears out over time. Us older guys can still produce qualitymuscle we just need to be more cautious then our younger counter parts.
 
rulk22

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I think our Andromass wich is really 1test and 4ad combined would something worth looking at, especially since its not liver harsh.
 

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LOL ... I'd have no problem doing "needles" but there's not a chance in hell I'd be able to hide that from little Mrs. Honda. Orals are one thing ... but most people not associated with this lifestyle look at needles as hard core drug abuse.

I'm sure she'd freak out.
All of the negative press about drug abuse with steroids doesn't help. I had to educate my wife on the issue of my steroid use. First thing up was the liver toxic issue, the press really worked this angle. She has no problem with it as long as I keep my " stuff " out of sight. Granted it was a little tense for a few weeks, She accepted my trt after she read the blood test results. I'm on week 3 of a 20 week cycle and she has no problem with it. Infact, she enjoys cooking and has been keeping me on a strict diet. She has a calendar to mark off the days until cycle ends then it's back to trt dose. At times I feel like I have a handler oh at least its working.....
 
GolFNUTT

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I had to sub in on this one as you guys are sharing some assume info and for a guy that just started HRT a little over a month ago I would like to know about everything that I can possibly learn. 49 with low test and Dr script for Androgel. It's working ok but I'm thinking of finding a endo as I'm just seeing the family Dr for my problems.
I will research what Honda V65 had said earlier as I would like to maybe add something to the Adrogel to get more of a boost. Definitely would like to add considerable muscle but without the fat. Thanks Honda V65 for that info!
 

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Hello, I'm quite new to forum. And old also (over 35) ;)

I'm thinking about some mild cycle to raise my strength up. Some background: I'm ex quite heavy juicer, did plenty of testosterones etc for years and quitted at 2002. Was 8 years completely off from hormones and tested myself to find out that my test levels were low. I just wondered why my strength came down slowly but steady during those 8 natural years. So now i'm at test replacement therapy with nebido (8 weeks). During these 6 or 7 months my strength has skyrocketed up. About 120lbs on bench, 180lbs to deadlift and something like 150lbs to squat.

I assume, since i'm rest of my life on testosterone therapy. I just cannot shut down my test levels anymore whatever I do? I understand if i take epistane or some milder like err.. cynostane my levels go down when I quit, but I dont really quit since i use nebido which keeps my levels stable "natural level".. ? No need for pct.

Of course estrogen might become problem but my estrogen levels are evaluated also and estrogen is much easier to bring down than testosterone back up(normally)

I have already family and childs, so thats not problem here.

Sorry for long post, just my thoughts.
 
junkyarddogzz

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Hello, I'm quite new to forum. And old also (over 35) ;)

I'm thinking about some mild cycle to raise my strength up. Some background: I'm ex quite heavy juicer, did plenty of testosterones etc for years and quitted at 2002. Was 8 years completely off from hormones and tested myself to find out that my test levels were low. I just wondered why my strength came down slowly but steady during those 8 natural years. So now i'm at test replacement therapy with nebido (8 weeks). During these 6 or 7 months my strength has skyrocketed up. About 120lbs on bench, 180lbs to deadlift and something like 150lbs to squat.

I assume, since i'm rest of my life on testosterone therapy. I just cannot shut down my test levels anymore whatever I do? I understand if i take epistane or some milder like err.. cynostane my levels go down when I quit, but I dont really quit since i use nebido which keeps my levels stable "natural level".. ? No need for pct.

Of course estrogen might become problem but my estrogen levels are evaluated also and estrogen is much easier to bring down than testosterone back up(normally)

I have already family and childs, so thats not problem here.

Sorry for long post, just my thoughts.
Give the Osta a shot brother.
 

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Hi, I'm 42 and been hitting the weights hard for nearly three years after stopping for a couple (shoulder and elbow issues) Have perhaps 7 or so years weight lifting behind me. I'm a roid and PH virgin and have been thinking about some mild to moderate strength PH for cutting and strength gain. Muscle mass gain is not a priority, but I won't shrug it off.

Considering the Ortasan-A/Furazan or 11-OXO types, likely solo towards the higher end of dosages for max effect. Not too keen on stacking just yet as I prefer to avoid Methyls right now for a first time run. Though I'm open to what makes sense. I've read tons of FAQs and articles the last two weeks, I'm aware of cycle support and PCT.

Usual supps include Creatine, lots of BCAAs: 8:1:1, Beta Alanine and a host of Stims I try here and there: ECA, straight Caff, MRM Driven, White Flood, and currently Jack3D. Not all in a stack of course. Fish oils, vits and mins.

In the gym five days a week - 75-90 mins, usually combination of mainly compound movements and finishing with 15-25 mins of cardio- steady and Hiit. I prefer lifting heavy, but not too much to risk form or further injury. I really would like to break some plateaus, so strength gain would be great.

Nutrition is about 98% clean and controlled, except for the occasional slice of pizza. Typically keep cals to around 2400-2500. I could go lower, but I don't want to lose the muscle I got the last few years nor slow down my metabolism.

In a similar situation, would you consider a PH or two to cut better, by lowering cals further and hopefully holding onto the muscles or just avoid them, perhaps for now till I get my BF% lower, which I do have a lot to lose - currently around 22-24%.

Feedback would be Awesome!
ever had your test levels checked by the doc?-test replacement is a better alternative and you would be recieving an external supply of test forever.
 
GolFNUTT

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ctay,
what did you decide and how are things going? I'm curious as I would like to hear your results and from what you are doing. I can't get into the endo until September as a new patient :( and considering to through something in until I can get into to see the dr.
 

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did my first ph at 49 ... with great results. but the libido took a hit and Ive never quite come back to where i was pre cycle.
Despite that, ran a TBol/Proviron cycle this year, with terrible results. My test must just be way too low now, and it was all sides, and little gains.

Ive been using Ostarine, and love it. Its not gear, or even ph ... Id say somewhere above creatine, and below epi. But it CAN be slightly supressive ... maybe a 20 year old wont feel the difference, but I find I gotta cycle it .. usually 3/4 weeks on, then the same time off.,
 
EasyEJL

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did my first ph at 49 ... with great results. but the libido took a hit and Ive never quite come back to where i was pre cycle.
Despite that, ran a TBol/Proviron cycle this year, with terrible results. My test must just be way too low now, and it was all sides, and little gains.

Ive been using Ostarine, and love it. Its not gear, or even ph ... Id say somewhere above creatine, and below epi. But it CAN be slightly supressive ... maybe a 20 year old wont feel the difference, but I find I gotta cycle it .. usually 3/4 weeks on, then the same time off.,
I dunno, it really makes more sense to get your levels checked and get into TRT if its appropriate. Mine is covered by insurance for 150 mg a week, which isn't a "bodybuilding" dose, but is pretty close to a 21 year olds level.
 

ctay

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ctay,
what did you decide and how are things going? I'm curious as I would like to hear your results and from what you are doing.
Hey ... I did a cycle of 5 weeks H-Drol at 50/75/75/75/50 and 4 weeks 11-Oxo at 300/450/450/300. Results were mixed. Didn't feel a thing or notice any changes in body or strength until the 4th week. The last two weeks of H-drol was near unbearable with back pumps. Had to ditch squats and deads completely; even other lifts caused pumps in the last few sets. No amount of Taurine or Potassium or extra water did a thing, I just reluctantly dropped what was killing me and gritted my teeth through the rest. Pumps were still there towards the end of PCT as well; probably spent 4 weeks in severe to moderate pain.

Overall I gained about 6lbs lean and lost nearly 3%BF running a diet 500 cals below maintenance and hit a few PRs till the pumps were too much. Though I followed what I thought was a good PCT regimine - Tomax, PCT Assist, Lean Xtreme, DAA, increase calories above maintenance, etc, I lost about half the lean gains, and maybe added 1/2 to 1%BF. If it wasn't for the horrible pumps, I might consider it again and increase H to 100, but I likely won't be touching H-drol again. I think everyone's reactions and results vary with a few people on the extreme opposite ends. My back didn't approve of the stuff. I'm considering Anabeta since I already like the PES line of supps. Just doing AlphaT2, Shift and a natty T boost right now. Might do an Anabeta cycle in a few weeks, maybe combine with 11-Oxo again or not. Haven't given it much thought, been busy with life and such ... peace.
 
GolFNUTT

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ctay,
Thanks for the info. Man that is too bad that you didn't get the results that you where hoping for. Best of luck the next time. I go to the endo dr next month so I think that I will wait and see what the blood work looks like before I consider anything and probably the best idea. I might look into Epistane eod for a short cycle in the future like 3 weeks thus not needing PCT.
 

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ctay, Thanks for the info. Man that is too bad that you didn't get the results that you where hoping for. Best of luck the next time. I go to the endo dr next month so I think that I will wait and see what the blood work looks like before I consider anything and probably the best idea. I might look into Epistane eod for a short cycle in the future like 3 weeks thus not needing PCT.
For the goal I had - cutting while maintaining (or gaining) lean mass, H and Ox did a nice job and would have been fantastic if could have gone 100 with H, just those pumps were too nasty at the end, so I dropped it to 50. Not sure what happened during PCT; the losses would have been worse if I didn't keep everything in check. It's been six or so weeks since my PCT ended and I have still maintained some gains and I'm back to squats and dead, so life is fine once more. Good luck with the Epi if you go that route, check out tunedsports.com and read the epistane info bible tunedsports.com/designer-steroids/the-epistane-havoc-informative-bible
 

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