Who here is on TRT?

[Justlooking5]

You might be within the "normal" range, which I hate. But, you aren't within the "optimal" range. There's a huge difference. Find an actual TRT clinic where you live and have them assess you. Most places go by that damn "normal" range when it comes to diagnosing.

Yeah it's a bitch. Low enough to feel like sh*t and have chronic legit ED (like getting BJ and not being able to get hard and no morning wood, ever), but just high enough that many places won't treat.

However I've talked to two TRT clinics who said they would treat in my range especially given I'm only 34.

Right now I'm going to try to increase my levels with the OTC approach (Zinc/KSM-66 etc.) and get levels to see if there's been any improvement, then try clomid. If this doesn't work I'm going to go to TRT next.

I'm also kind of debating which is safer, repeat runs of clomid or TRT given clomid has vision SE but we'll have to see.

 

[Movin_weight]

Yeah it's a bitch. Low enough to feel like sh*t and have chronic legit ED (like getting BJ and not being able to get hard and no morning wood, ever), but just high enough that many places won't treat.

However I've talked to two TRT clinics who said they would treat in my range especially given I'm only 34.

Right now I'm going to try to increase my levels with the OTC approach (Zinc/KSM-66 etc.) and get levels to see if there's been any improvement, then try clomid. If this doesn't work I'm going to go to TRT next.

I'm also kind of debating which is safer, repeat runs of clomid or TRT given clomid has vision SE but we'll have to see.

You need a men's health clinic... endos are just going to jerk you around, don't even waste your time. Get copies of your blood work and find a clinic and go talk to people that actually treat this stuff everyday.

 

[Justlooking5]

You need a men's health clinic... endos are just going to jerk you around, don't even waste your time. Get copies of your blood work and find a clinic and go talk to people that actually treat this stuff everyday.

Totally, both times I've gone to endos it was a crappy experience and they clearly cared more about covering their ass and sticking to one-size-fits-all protocols than looking at it from a more nuanced POV (like, if I'm 34 w/ test levels of avg 85 year old maybe my ED and fatigue would be better helped with increased T, not viagra and prozac).

My urologist experiences have been better but good thing there are men's TRT clinics b/c PCPs and endos generally don't seem to give a f* in my experience unless you are below that exact threshold.

 

[kisaj]

They are doing you a favor and stopping you from making stupid choices. You don't have low test and need to listen to the endo to find the actual issue. You do understand that not everything is associated with testosterone, right?

 

[Movin_weight]

They are doing you a favor and stopping you from making stupid choices. You don't have low test and need to listen to the endo to find the actual issue. You do understand that not everything is associated with testosterone, right?

We've all abused anabolics... so yes it's most likely a culprit

 

[Justlooking5]

They are doing you a favor and stopping you from making stupid choices. You don't have low test and need to listen to the endo to find the actual issue. You do understand that not everything is associated with testosterone, right?

You're misinformed and I'm not going to get into a debate about how unless you're over a threshold (which is variously defined as EITHER 348 ng/dl OR 250 ng/dl, as in, no absolute threshold and what is considered low depends on the lab/clinic) you're all fine and have no issues with testosterone.

The purpose of this thread is not to debate whether having levels in the mid-300s is too low. But I'll just make a few quick points.

1). My problems (mood, ED, fatigue, depression) started after my last steroid cycle and where I did not PCT as I had in the past with clomid etc. and instead trusted an OTC supplement (ATD) based on forum posts. I crashed hardcore and it was ****ed up, major estrogen rebound/bloating, serious depression, severe excema which I never had before. My erectile issues started after my first steroid cycle at age 19. Prior to my last cycle I mainly just had ED issues but none of the mood, fatigue, etc.

2). My testosterone level is in the lowest 5th percentile for my age, and is at the average level of an 85 year old man. Being in the lowest 5th percentile isn't normal, btw, it's right on the margin of the bell curve.

3). Taking supplements that increase testosterone to some degree in studies (KSM-66, Longjack, Zinc Pic) has restored my nighttime erections to a degree. Prior to starting this protocol my nocturnal erections never occurred, and I NEVER have morning wood. NE are an indicator of testosterone levels. Nighttime erections should occur in men if their testosterone levels are healthy. The fact that I never get them is a major sign of test levels that are too low.

If I get my test levels to a more normal range for my age (I would define as 500-700) for an extended period and I continue to have issues with mood, ED, etc., I'll explore additional possibilities, but until then I'm not going to treat ED w/ viagra and mood with prozac when I have test levels of an 80 year old and a history of steroid use which leads to hypogonadism and which directly preceded these problems.

I'm hoping to fix it with OTC supps or OTC + clomid but if these don't work I'll be trying TRT.

 

[Justlooking5]

I just got back from my urologist today. We're going to try clomid at 25mg/day for 6 weeks and see how that affects my ED, mood, libido, anxiety, energy, etc. I'll be paying pretty close attention to all these and recording a log.

The urologist basically said my testosterone was within the normal range but may or may not be at the right range for me to function optimally. He thought my ED could also be psychological, though I really doubt that is all of it as I never have morning erections etc. And of course I could not tell him that these problems all started after steroid use, as it could have repercussions with insurance, their willingness to treat, etc.

Last time on clomid 25mg my test levels went over 1,000 so it will be interesting to see how higher levels affects my issues. I plan to stop the clomid in 6 weeks and then see if I can maintain higher levels for several months with Shilajit, KSM-66, Zinc, etc. I'm going to keep taking the Shilajit (studies showed it takes about 60 days to increase T anyway) and KSM-66, Zinc Pic. 15mg/day, as well as vitamin D, but wait on the nettle, longjack, etc. till after I stop clomid.

Either this approach works (a few courses of clomid per year + herbs) or I will likely start TRT.

 

[jodek555]

hello,

i know this is a old post, but i will post anyway. i have been on TRT for about 15 years. I love it. these are my do's and don'ts.
1. someone mentioned this before, but make sure you donate blood every six weeks. test will thicken your blood. this is why the tv hype's is on heart attacks and so on.
2. i take supplements that keep the blood moving. every now and then take a few asprin or whatever you choose to thin the blood out for a minute . i am very aware of long drives and airplane rides. that's when i donate for sure around these periods.
3. a high test score does not mean free test sometimes. its the free test in my opinion that blends it all together. i like mixing my test with super dhea and epiandro because of it's conversion rate to dht and free test . keeps the body rock hard.
4. you will need an AI to go along with test because it will create a boat load of estrogen.

I use a male urology clinic here in kansas city,mo. doctors are trained to say no if you are range. my test was once at 232 and the range was 230-850, but because i was in range , the doctor said no. i never dealt with the doctor for male needs since then( 15 years ago ).

blue cross and blue shield is the best insurance for TRT in my opinion. I have tried humana and kaiser and had to pay out of pocket because they have no interest or concern in male TRT. could have changed since then don't know.

I pin twice a week for a balance of hormones. 50mg twice a week . i use a 29g 5/8 needle. i know very slow and less scarring and pain. i also use one needle for drawing and squirt into a fresh needle. a fresh needle goes right through the skin painless , but it dulls very quickly when i draw and the poke is more severe.

always pay close attention to your body. know your pains and what they are. keep the donated blood cycle a must routine. I like letrone for an AI. research chems are hit and miss.

 

[Sparkss]

For experiences with coming off of TRT IIRC thebigt came off a couple of years ago due to high hemocrit. He might be able to add to that part of the conversation.

Also, The_Old_Guy recently started sub-q self-pinning and has a good thread about it (that I can't seem to find now).

I myself am on pellets for the last year and am switching to sub-q injections once this current run of pellets "runs out". for me it was night and day difference when I started on TRT.

 

[thebigt]

For experiences with coming off of TRT IIRC thebigt came off a couple of years ago due to high hemocrit. He might be able to add to that part of the conversation.

Also, The_Old_Guy recently started sub-q self-pinning and has a good thread about it (that I can't seem to find now).

I myself am on pellets for the last year and am switching to sub-q injections once this current run of pellets "runs out". for me it was night and day difference when I started on TRT.

3 baby aspirin/6 fish oil daily got me right after being told I had polychthemia...giving blood is a good idea!!

I draw with a 20g needle-- inject with 22g 1 1/2 needle. I can't imagine a 29g, my wife gives my injections and complains about anything over a 22.

I think I have found a reliable 'rc' company....I am 'researching' anastrozole atm, seems to be good stuff... letro is way to harsh for trt, imo.

 

[jodek555]

yes i know , 29g is a very slow process, but i don't feel any of the stick what so ever. i like the sub-q over IM. IM sometimes leaves a sore bruise for a few days. I only take the letro once every three days. like i had said earlier, estrogen really rocks me.
i never done the pellets, i had a few buddies that did and the process was a painful one according to them. so i stayed away. i keep up on my labs with " private labs md". even when i would use my insurance i have a 100.00 co-pay and could only get two blood hormone panels done a year. as i am getting older(55 years old ) i do 3-4 panels a year out of my pocket because its so cheap and run it under flex spending accounts.
everybody has their own system, and reading will educate you more than the knowledge of most doctor's on this subject.

 

[jodek555]

i almost forgot to mention. thebigt is correct on letrone. it can be too harsh on estrogen. estrogen is a necessary good. if you those estrogen levels down to low , it will be hard to get an erection, at least for me any way. thats why i take letrone 1 every 3 days.

 

[Sparkss]

yes i know , 29g is a very slow process, but i don't feel any of the stick what so ever. i like the sub-q over IM. IM sometimes leaves a sore bruise for a few days. I only take the letro once every three days. like i had said earlier, estrogen really rocks me.
i never done the pellets, i had a few buddies that did and the process was a painful one according to them. so i stayed away. i keep up on my labs with " private labs md". even when i would use my insurance i have a 100.00 co-pay and could only get two blood hormone panels done a year. as i am getting older(55 years old ) i do 3-4 panels a year out of my pocket because its so cheap and run it under flex spending accounts.
everybody has their own system, and reading will educate you more than the knowledge of most doctor's on this subject.

Pellets weren't too bad for the "implantation", then 5 ~ 6 months of "stable" test levels, but there are several down sides, some that are obvious, others that are not. The biggest was the expense, especially compared to self-injections of test-cyp.

I also do my own labs, using both Private MD Labs and Discounted Labs (depends on the tests I am looking for). They both use Labcorp for the blood draws. I don't both with insurance, but like you, I also use my HSA account to pay for it, so at least that is all pre-tax dollars.

 

[kisaj]

i almost forgot to mention. thebigt is correct on letrone. it can be too harsh on estrogen. estrogen is a necessary good. if you those estrogen levels down to low , it will be hard to get an erection, at least for me any way. thats why i take letrone 1 every 3 days.

Not Letrone- Letrozole. Two different products, one is a mild OTC AI and the other is a knock your dick in the dirt AI.

 

[thebigt]

Not Letrone- Letrozole. Two different products, one is a mild OTC AI and the other is a knock your dick in the dirt AI.

yup...

 

[ryox82]

3 baby aspirin/6 fish oil daily got me right after being told I had polychthemia...giving blood is a good idea!!

I draw with a 20g needle-- inject with 22g 1 1/2 needle. I can't imagine a 29g, my wife gives my injections and complains about anything over a 22.

I think I have found a reliable 'rc' company....I am 'researching' anastrozole atm, seems to be good stuff... letro is way to harsh for trt, imo.

Anastrazole I get directly from the TRT clinic and the pills are so small they are hard to split. I've heard of people disolving in vodka and using that to micro dose accurately. Many stories out there of Dr's unnecessarily prescribing it and people having their E2 crashed so it's still pretty potent stuff.

 

[thebigt]

Anastrazole I get directly from the TRT clinic and the pills are so small they are hard to split. I've heard of people disolving in vodka and using that to micro dose accurately. Many stories out there of Dr's unnecessarily prescribing it and people having their E2 crashed so it's still pretty potent stuff.

why not just dose 1 pill every other day or even 1 pill every 3 days? from what I've read it has a half life of 46 hours.

 

[ryox82]

why not just dose 1 pill every other day or even 1 pill every 3 days? from what I've read it has a half life of 46 hours.

Only if the blood work called for that level of intervention. I'm not touching the stuff until asfter my next bloods. There are people reporting crashing e2 with 1mg a week because it wasn't necessary.

 

[thebigt]

Only if the blood work called for that level of intervention. I'm not touching the stuff until asfter my next bloods. There are people reporting crashing e2 with 1mg a week because it wasn't necessary.

sorry about that I misunderstood you...I thought you were already using it and having issues splitting it?

 

[ryox82]

Oh yes, the doc had prescribed it when we were at the highest Clomid dose and my levels were rising out of step with T levels. Once we switched to injections we removed that until the next blood test.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

Yup, still on 100mg/week, split 50mg Mon AM/Thurs PM. SubQ (found my Glute fat is the best place *for me* - was getting the occasional nodule in Ab fat that would dissipate in a few days, but still... Consulted an MD and he said try the butt). 26G 3/8" "One Piece" to draw and administer - works great. One piece units will save you some Testosterone compared to "Slip Tip" needles. DrugSupplyStore is where I order. I've also used 25G 5/8" no problem - Your local drug store probably has these as they are Tuberculin syringes and used a lot - "Vanishing Point" auto-retracts the needle, which is kind of neat Was due for a 6 month blood draw last week, but had a family thing come up - so maybe next week. Discounted Labs "TRT Follow Up Panel" +DHEA-S - paperwork is on my table. Had Breast Tissue sensitivity about 3 weeks after starting, so added Indian Rx Aromasin (Exemestane) at 12.5mg 2x/week (same time as injections) and have been anecdotally fine ever since. Need those bloods to confirm though. At basically 1 tablet a week, 1 bottle is a 30 week supply or $1 a week. Can't source, so don't ask. I would ask your Doc about Aromasin over Anastrozole, because it is very friendly to lipids and almost everything else. But unless your guy is up to speed, you may catch some friction - then get it yourself as a last resort as long as it is Rx. RC stuff worked, but it may have been under-dosed (or liquid just isn't accurate enough even after shaking).

 

[Sparkss]

Yup, still on 100mg/week, split 50mg Mon AM/Thurs PM. SubQ (found my Glute fat is the best place *for me* - was getting the occasional nodule in Ab fat that would dissipate in a few days, but still... Consulted an MD and he said try the butt). 26G 3/8" "One Piece" to draw and administer - works great. One piece units will save you some Testosterone compared to "Slip Tip" needles. DrugSupplyStore is where I order. I've also used 25G 5/8" no problem - Your local drug store probably has these as they are Tuberculin syringes and used a lot - "Vanishing Point" auto-retracts the needle, which is kind of neat Was due for a 6 month blood draw last week, but had a family thing come up - so maybe next week. Discounted Labs "TRT Follow Up Panel" +DHEA-S - paperwork is on my table. Had Breast Tissue sensitivity about 3 weeks after starting, so added Indian Rx Aromasin (Exemestane) at 12.5mg 2x/week (same time as injections) and have been anecdotally fine ever since. Need those bloods to confirm though. At basically 1 tablet a week, 1 bottle is a 30 week supply or $1 a week. Can't source, so don't ask. I would ask your Doc about Aromasin over Anastrozole, because it is very friendly to lipids and almost everything else. But unless your guy is up to speed, you may catch some friction - then get it yourself as a last resort as long as it is Rx. RC stuff worked, but it may have been under-dosed (or liquid just isn't accurate enough even after shaking).

Thanks. Also, the glutes are where they implant the pellets, and those are essentially sub-q, so that makes sense to also inject there, just maybe a bit harder to reach versus the abs. But I did hear Crissler mention that 1 out of 10 times he would get a nodule, which is basically once a month (when on a 2x week dosing regiment). So I was planning to try another injection site also, and your shared experience saved me from "trying" different injection sites to find a "good" one .

 

[Movin_weight]

Thanks. Also, the glutes are where they implant the pellets, and those are essentially sub-q, so that makes sense to also inject there, just maybe a bit harder to reach versus the abs. But I did hear Crissler mention that 1 out of 10 times he would get a nodule, which is basically once a month (when on a 2x week dosing regiment). So I was planning to try another injection site also, and your shared experience saved me from "trying" different injection sites to find a "good" one .

You guys liking the sub q? I usually just hit triceps and pecs with 28-29g slin pins and haven't had much issue with scarring.

I'm on 200mg/ week and take 1mg anastrozole which keeps estradiol in a good range.

 

[habajaba]

FWIW compounding pharmacies can do smaller dosages. I have 0.125mg anastrozole in single pill form. Very nice and worth it vs trying to screw with cutting pills.

 

[THOR 70]

FWIW compounding pharmacies can do smaller dosages. I have 0.125mg anastrozole in single pill form. Very nice and worth it vs trying to screw with cutting pills.

Well that is amazing. Great tip