Justlooking5
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Edit update 5/10/17: I wrote this post originally in 2015, about a year ago. I recently got bloodwork while taking a multi that included 100mcg of a K2/K7 blend. My testosterone levels came back at 369 ng/dl, the lowest it's ever tested. K2 seems to do something but I don't think it's an effective testosterone booster, at least at the 100mcg/day dose. I have hypogonadism from AAS use though so it may affect me differently. I was also taking high dose Vitamin D, probiotics, high sat fat diet, tocotrienols (like in toco 8) at this time, and doing periodic IF, and my test levels were still tanked.
Hello all. I thought I'd share my experiences with trying vitamin K2-MK4 to increase testosterone.
A little background: I am 33 years old and have been bodybuilding since age 17, with some off periods. I first used gear at about 19 and did 4 total major cycles (e.g., test/dbol) between 19 and 25. After my last cycle at age 25 I probably cycled too long and did not come off correctly (bought into bull**** that ATD was effective to restore HPTA instead of clomid) and definitely wound up with suppressed HPTA.
At age 28 I got my test levels checked and they came back at 390, which is VERY low (see it as lower than average for all but the 85 y/o):
http://testosteroneandyou.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/testosterone-by-age.jpg
I tried clomid rx'ed by my urologist which pushed my levels up to about 1,100, but upon cessation of clomid they dropped back to 400. For a few years I didn't address it but this year I've been trying to address it more actively now that I'm bodybuilding again. So far I have tried Tongkat Ali (2-800mg), Boron (3-12mg), and ZMA (standard dose), along with high dose vitamin D.
tldr : I did several cycles of gear age 19-25, did not come off last cycle correctly due to believing hype about ATD/being irresponsible, wound up with suppressed HPTA with test levels at the average of an 85 y/o (390) at age 28. Have been trying to address it this past year with several supps including TA/ZMA/Boron.
Last week after some research I decided to try K2, specifically the MK4 variant (menaquinone-4). This was based on research with (yes) wistar rats showing K2-MK4 increased total testosterone output from the testes by more than 70%, in a manner other than by stimulating LH or suppressing estrogen .
Additionally, in vitro, rat testicular cells incubated with M4 produced testosterone in a manner that was dose-dependent on the amount of M4 incubated.
To me that the increase in total test is not mediated by increased LH means it may combine very well with a supplement that DOES increase LH and/or free testosterone such as TA
K2 also has other reported benefits on Vitamin D absorption, joint health (very noticeable to me), energy (very noticeable), cardiovascular health, bone health, etc.
Anecdotally I have been taking MK4 at 5-10mg for one week, and my preliminary belief is that it may be a more effective testosterone enhancing supplement (for me at least) than even 800mg TA w/ ZMA, or boron, etc.
I have really noticed a difference in several areas I associate with increased testosterone since starting MK4 (though I can't be sure it is due to increased test (maybe M4 just increases energy/aggression in another way, etc.):
Things I've noticed after one week:
-Energy increase (very noticeable)
-Feel more "robust" and powerful
-Deeper more powerful voice (very noticeable, more than from TA, ZMA, etc.)
-Leaner all over
-More defined/harder muscles, skin seems thinner
-Possible mild strength increase though I have resumed training this week after a few week break so hard to say
-More assertive / dominant behavior (i.e., someone was doing something obnoxious at the gym near where I was training and I (politely) confronted them about it whereas before I have ignored it/not said anything)
-I get a mild pump (pretty sure not placebo but maybe, a bit like the pump from PA) after taking it
-Not a major change in sex drive but sex drive is good
-Some morning erections but no issues with getting erections and erection quality is good
-GREAT joint benefits. I haven't had sore joints in the past few days especially, whereas I sometimes had been having knee and back soreness from sitting too long. Also, my joints have been popping/loosening (in a pleasant way) more in the past few days, which other people have observed, and no elbow soreness during or after training when doing overhead dumbbell extensions
Anyway, it feels to me like my test levels are higher, or at a minimum I'm getting many of the benefits of increased test. I WILL be getting a blood level check done sometime in the next few months, but I am rather busy with some school application stuff right now and will have to deal with that after.
*Also, and a caveat, several people have reported a "face widening" effect from taking vitamin K2
https://raypeatforum.com/community/threads/wider-face-after-using-vitamin-k.4188/page-6
(guy's pic on first post on that page)
And check out his muscle definition in these pics:
https://raypeatforum.com/community/attachments/img_8312-jpg.2249/
To me it looks like his face got bulkier with better muscle tone, the way increased test will do (similar to this guy who is on test replacement):
http://40.media.tumblr.com/3d7355fbdce3f0013918a1321c80b405/tumblr_n9ldq5Fet41qguqqao1_500.jpg
Another thread:
vitamin mk4 induce skull growth? - Page 2 | Mark's Daily Apple Health and Fitness Forum
I'm not entirely sure what this is about, but several people have reported it. My optimistic explanation is that M4 is increasing their testosterone to the point where they are seeing noticeable changes in facial features, muscle definition, etc.
Another possibility is due to its bone-building effects which could be concerning/possibly more permanent:
Protecting Bone And Arterial Health With Vitamin K2 - Life Extension
Personally, after a week my face does look a little more full, but not in a way that makes me think substantial bone changes have occurred (implausible after a week anyway), but I'm going to continue to monitor it and probably take weekly pics.
Anyway, synopsis is I think MK4 may work better for meaningfully boosting testosterone or at least boost several things associated w/ higher test (energy, aggression, body comp) (for me at least, n=1) than even a combination of 100:1 TA at 800mg and nightly ZMA.
Thoughts/experiences?
Hello all. I thought I'd share my experiences with trying vitamin K2-MK4 to increase testosterone.
A little background: I am 33 years old and have been bodybuilding since age 17, with some off periods. I first used gear at about 19 and did 4 total major cycles (e.g., test/dbol) between 19 and 25. After my last cycle at age 25 I probably cycled too long and did not come off correctly (bought into bull**** that ATD was effective to restore HPTA instead of clomid) and definitely wound up with suppressed HPTA.
At age 28 I got my test levels checked and they came back at 390, which is VERY low (see it as lower than average for all but the 85 y/o):
http://testosteroneandyou.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/testosterone-by-age.jpg
I tried clomid rx'ed by my urologist which pushed my levels up to about 1,100, but upon cessation of clomid they dropped back to 400. For a few years I didn't address it but this year I've been trying to address it more actively now that I'm bodybuilding again. So far I have tried Tongkat Ali (2-800mg), Boron (3-12mg), and ZMA (standard dose), along with high dose vitamin D.
tldr : I did several cycles of gear age 19-25, did not come off last cycle correctly due to believing hype about ATD/being irresponsible, wound up with suppressed HPTA with test levels at the average of an 85 y/o (390) at age 28. Have been trying to address it this past year with several supps including TA/ZMA/Boron.
Last week after some research I decided to try K2, specifically the MK4 variant (menaquinone-4). This was based on research with (yes) wistar rats showing K2-MK4 increased total testosterone output from the testes by more than 70%, in a manner other than by stimulating LH or suppressing estrogen .
Additionally, in vitro, rat testicular cells incubated with M4 produced testosterone in a manner that was dose-dependent on the amount of M4 incubated.
1g of Vitamin K2 (MK-4) Could Boost Your Testosterone Levels by More Than +50% - At Least, This is What the Results of a Recent Rodent Study Would Suggest. - SuppVersity: Nutrition and Exercise Science for EveryoneInterestingly, these profound increases in testosterone production were not mediated by changes in luteinizing hormone concentration...
The most likely explanation, according to Asagi et al., for the profound effects MK4 has on the output (its like an after-burner for your testes ;-) of testosterone would be c-AMP mediated.
To me that the increase in total test is not mediated by increased LH means it may combine very well with a supplement that DOES increase LH and/or free testosterone such as TA
K2 also has other reported benefits on Vitamin D absorption, joint health (very noticeable to me), energy (very noticeable), cardiovascular health, bone health, etc.
Anecdotally I have been taking MK4 at 5-10mg for one week, and my preliminary belief is that it may be a more effective testosterone enhancing supplement (for me at least) than even 800mg TA w/ ZMA, or boron, etc.
I have really noticed a difference in several areas I associate with increased testosterone since starting MK4 (though I can't be sure it is due to increased test (maybe M4 just increases energy/aggression in another way, etc.):
Things I've noticed after one week:
-Energy increase (very noticeable)
-Feel more "robust" and powerful
-Deeper more powerful voice (very noticeable, more than from TA, ZMA, etc.)
-Leaner all over
-More defined/harder muscles, skin seems thinner
-Possible mild strength increase though I have resumed training this week after a few week break so hard to say
-More assertive / dominant behavior (i.e., someone was doing something obnoxious at the gym near where I was training and I (politely) confronted them about it whereas before I have ignored it/not said anything)
-I get a mild pump (pretty sure not placebo but maybe, a bit like the pump from PA) after taking it
-Not a major change in sex drive but sex drive is good
-Some morning erections but no issues with getting erections and erection quality is good
-GREAT joint benefits. I haven't had sore joints in the past few days especially, whereas I sometimes had been having knee and back soreness from sitting too long. Also, my joints have been popping/loosening (in a pleasant way) more in the past few days, which other people have observed, and no elbow soreness during or after training when doing overhead dumbbell extensions
Anyway, it feels to me like my test levels are higher, or at a minimum I'm getting many of the benefits of increased test. I WILL be getting a blood level check done sometime in the next few months, but I am rather busy with some school application stuff right now and will have to deal with that after.
*Also, and a caveat, several people have reported a "face widening" effect from taking vitamin K2
https://raypeatforum.com/community/threads/wider-face-after-using-vitamin-k.4188/page-6
(guy's pic on first post on that page)
And check out his muscle definition in these pics:
https://raypeatforum.com/community/attachments/img_8312-jpg.2249/
To me it looks like his face got bulkier with better muscle tone, the way increased test will do (similar to this guy who is on test replacement):
http://40.media.tumblr.com/3d7355fbdce3f0013918a1321c80b405/tumblr_n9ldq5Fet41qguqqao1_500.jpg
Another thread:
vitamin mk4 induce skull growth? - Page 2 | Mark's Daily Apple Health and Fitness Forum
I'm not entirely sure what this is about, but several people have reported it. My optimistic explanation is that M4 is increasing their testosterone to the point where they are seeing noticeable changes in facial features, muscle definition, etc.
Another possibility is due to its bone-building effects which could be concerning/possibly more permanent:
Protecting Bone And Arterial Health With Vitamin K2 - Life Extension
Personally, after a week my face does look a little more full, but not in a way that makes me think substantial bone changes have occurred (implausible after a week anyway), but I'm going to continue to monitor it and probably take weekly pics.
Anyway, synopsis is I think MK4 may work better for meaningfully boosting testosterone or at least boost several things associated w/ higher test (energy, aggression, body comp) (for me at least, n=1) than even a combination of 100:1 TA at 800mg and nightly ZMA.
Thoughts/experiences?