Update to HCG TRT therapy

[ColtSSBR]

Guys,
I've shown some very good improvement after several months of HCG TRT.
My TRT prescription dosage protocol is now:
HCG 1/2 ML (1000IU) ED
Arimidex .5 ED.
Adrenal Complex (non-script) 2 caps a day.

Before starting the HCG TRT, my total test was 318.

Recent blood work:

Testosterone Total: 619 (250-1100)
Testosterone, Free: 1.93 (1.50-2.20)
Free Testosterone: 119.5 35.0-155.0
Estradiol: 54
DHEA: 353 (110-370)
TSH, 3rd gen: 1.99 (0.40-4.50)
T4, Free: 1.1 (0.8-1.8)
T3, Free: 352 (230-420)
Cortisol: 13.6 (am)
IGF-1: 363 (95.0-275) *The doc was blown away by this for some reason.

The doc recently added Anastrozole (Arimidex) 0.5 to lower the estrogen. My main concern is still the dosages of the HCG, which are now ½ ML (1000IU) every day. The Arimidex is also taken once a day as well. Now, I have been told that this is a normal dosage amount when one if first prescribed HCG for low testosterone but I’m going on the 4th month now at that amount. I have also been told that this dosage is way too much and will cause me problems down the road, even reproductive issue which I’m totally trying to avoid. On top of all this, I was just recently informed that I could in fact use a combination of testosterone and HCG with less potential for issues than HCG alone.

I have discussed the high dosages of the HCG with my doc several times and he says to stay at that dosage level.

I need some legit advice on where to go with this.

Thanks for any help.

 

[Steveoph]

7000 IU's / week of hCG is quite high. There isn't that great data on LH desensitization and when it occurs. I wish I had some useful data but I haven't. Perhaps some people that are really interested in it have found a study, but I searched a bit and didn't turn up anything concrete except lots of hypothesizing.

 

[ColtSSBR]

7000 IU's / week of hCG is quite high. There isn't that great data on LH desensitization and when it occurs. I wish I had some useful data but I haven't. Perhaps some people that are really interested in it have found a study, but I searched a bit and didn't turn up anything concrete except lots of hypothesizing.

Yes sir,
I know it's high and that's really my concern. However, I'm obviously doing pretty good on my current dosages. I am wondering if I should try to switch to the test/hcg rotation though to prevent desensitization etc.

Maybe put on litttle more muscle as well :biglaugh:

 

[EasyEJL]

Well, this isn't a restart protocol, its a long term hormone replacement protocol. so although it will likely totally remove your ability to naturally produce testosterone after some point you wouldn't be on this if you were creating a normal amount anyhow. If you do start to at some point get desensitization then you could look into direct testosterone therapy at that point.

 

[monsterbox]

The only point in monotherapy is my opinion is to avoid using testosterone, right? Why are we trying to avoid testosterone? So that the nuts won't shutdown and we can let as much of the body's system work as possible by stimulating it with HCG only.

However, I think its just not practical to rely on monotherapy alone. There is a reason you are not producing adaquate levels and its most likely not soley because your pituitary is underproductive. So by "bypassing" the pituitarys signal with HCG, you'll certainly be maxing out the signal to the leydig cells...but at what optimal use?

This is essentially like flooring a car with 2 blown cylinders. You are revving the engine and pushing it as hard as possible to make up for the lack of self-efficiency in the system.

This just does not seem like a smart thing to do if its requiring your current dosing amount. You nuts are obviously taking a HUGE amount of stimulation to only produce 600ng/dl. There are some guys on monotherapy that use 1500iu/week and get numbers above 1000ng/dl.

I think monotherapy should only be used with patients that are purely 100% pituitary based hypogandal. Otherwise, you are overcompensating for weak leydig cells by shoving 7,000IU!!! of HCG at them. This is what may eventually lead to progesterone issues, volitale E2 levels, and the possibly dreadful further inefficiency to LH.

In my humble opinion, I believe that hormone replacement for someone like yourself should certainly utilize HCG, but at a much smaller amount, while compensating with exogeneous T.

IE, lets say you drop the HCG to 1000iu/week. Your E2 will fall like a rock, your progesterone will drop to normal levels, your pregnenalone if messed up should balance out, and unfortunately your T levels will crash. However, the stimulation from 1000iu/week will help to maintain adaquate testicular size, leydig/serotoli health. THEN, make up the difference with testerone. Testosterone is cheap and easy to dose. Use the shot once a week or the cream ED. Use enough to get your levels where you are satisfied.

This method should be much more reliable and predictable. The T levels going in will atleast somewhat predict the T levels you recieve. You are still using HCG to keep the system working. Not to mention, costs will be much lower than using a bottle a week of HCG. You won't have to use as much arimidex.

Now, someone tell me what possible advantage there is to using 7000iu's solo vs HCG+T

 

[Mikey851]

I like the idea of HCG mono for you man; it just seems that dosage is high. However, the question is; how do you feel? If you feel great just keep following the docs advice and monitoring labs. If you feel like **** then something needs to change.

Look into Primordial Performance TCF-1. I took one bottle of it; it increases the ability of the testicles to convert cholesterol into test. That along with Sustain Alpha is making me feel great and my boys are hanging lower than ever; and to think my normal T levels are around 200.

 

[ColtSSBR]

Bingo

The only point in monotherapy is my opinion is to avoid using testosterone, right? Why are we trying to avoid testosterone? So that the nuts won't shutdown and we can let as much of the body's system work as possible by stimulating it with HCG only.

However, I think its just not practical to rely on monotherapy alone. There is a reason you are not producing adaquate levels and its most likely not soley because your pituitary is underproductive. So by "bypassing" the pituitarys signal with HCG, you'll certainly be maxing out the signal to the leydig cells...but at what optimal use?

This is essentially like flooring a car with 2 blown cylinders. You are revving the engine and pushing it as hard as possible to make up for the lack of self-efficiency in the system.

This just does not seem like a smart thing to do if its requiring your current dosing amount. You nuts are obviously taking a HUGE amount of stimulation to only produce 600ng/dl. There are some guys on monotherapy that use 1500iu/week and get numbers above 1000ng/dl.

I think monotherapy should only be used with patients that are purely 100% pituitary based hypogandal. Otherwise, you are overcompensating for weak leydig cells by shoving 7,000IU!!! of HCG at them. This is what may eventually lead to progesterone issues, volitale E2 levels, and the possibly dreadful further inefficiency to LH.

In my humble opinion, I believe that hormone replacement for someone like yourself should certainly utilize HCG, but at a much smaller amount, while compensating with exogeneous T.

IE, lets say you drop the HCG to 1000iu/week. Your E2 will fall like a rock, your progesterone will drop to normal levels, your pregnenalone if messed up should balance out, and unfortunately your T levels will crash. However, the stimulation from 1000iu/week will help to maintain adaquate testicular size, leydig/serotoli health. THEN, make up the difference with testerone. Testosterone is cheap and easy to dose. Use the shot once a week or the cream ED. Use enough to get your levels where you are satisfied.

This method should be much more reliable and predictable. The T levels going in will atleast somewhat predict the T levels you recieve. You are still using HCG to keep the system working. Not to mention, costs will be much lower than using a bottle a week of HCG. You won't have to use as much arimidex.

Now, someone tell me what possible advantage there is to using 7000iu's solo vs HCG+T

Monsterbox, The method you suggest is what another board member on another site told me to check into and what I'm considering. His thought was also that the HCG was far too excessive and that thic would work much better and potentially safer:
1. 100mg of test cypionate per week
2. Every 3 months do hcg at 500iu EOD (every other day) for 3 weeks.

Although there would be a mild shutdown, the HCG "cycle" would then bring everything back on track.

 

[ColtSSBR]

Feel

I like the idea of HCG mono for you man; it just seems that dosage is high. However, the question is; how do you feel? If you feel great just keep following the docs advice and monitoring labs. If you feel like **** then something needs to change.

Look into Primordial Performance TCF-1. I took one bottle of it; it increases the ability of the testicles to convert cholesterol into test. That along with Sustain Alpha is making me feel great and my boys are hanging lower than ever; and to think my normal T levels are around 200.

Mikey851,
Do you use the products on TRT? This is another area that there is not much info about- TRT and bodybuilding supplements (exe Prohormones).
I do feel better but one thing I have really noticed is that my strength is going way up to the point where I’m actually having a tough time recuperating. My joints, which never really bothered me before, are taking a beating now.
HCG does not really shine as a muscle builder and I’m wondering if the testosterone would be better in the area as well (never used it before).

Thank you guys for the input

 

[EasyEJL]

Mikey851,
Do you use the products on TRT? This is another area that there is not much info about- TRT and bodybuilding supplements (exe Prohormones).
I do feel better but one thing I have really noticed is that my strength is going way up to the point where I’m actually having a tough time recuperating. My joints, which never really bothered me before, are taking a beating now.
HCG does not really shine as a muscle builder and I’m wondering if the testosterone would be better in the area as well (never used it before).

Thank you guys for the input

realistically total test level (well, free test level) is the level, regardless of whether you get there from injecting cyp or using hcg. So reaching a level of 600 via cyp won't give you any greater muscle building than reaching it via hcg.

As far as TRT + "prohormones" (really designer steroids) go, the biggest issue you have to watch is your cholesterol. generally being on exogenous testosterone (or HCG) and taking AIs like arimidex tends to wreck your hdl and raise your ldl. So by adding most of the methylated hormones you make that even worse.

 

[Mikey851]

Mikey851,
Do you use the products on TRT? This is another area that there is not much info about- TRT and bodybuilding supplements (exe Prohormones).
I do feel better but one thing I have really noticed is that my strength is going way up to the point where I’m actually having a tough time recuperating. My joints, which never really bothered me before, are taking a beating now.
HCG does not really shine as a muscle builder and I’m wondering if the testosterone would be better in the area as well (never used it before).

Thank you guys for the input

Well TCF-1 is just a supplement that makes your testicles more efficient and Susain Alpha contains ingredients that modulate estrogen and increase LH/FSH. No I am not on HCG, Test or anything and I feel better now than when I was on any form of HRT. There will be some guys argue with me, but when my testosterone is at a mid range naturally (Around 500 total t) I feel better than when I have HCG or something giving me levels of ~1000 total t. It just feels like less of a load on my body.

 

[JanSz]

Guys,
I've shown some very good improvement after several months of HCG TRT.
My TRT prescription dosage protocol is now:
HCG 1/2 ML (1000IU) ED
Arimidex .5 ED.
Adrenal Complex (non-script) 2 caps a day.

Before starting the HCG TRT, my total test was 318.

Recent blood work:

Testosterone Total: 619 (250-1100)
Testosterone, Free: 1.93 (1.50-2.20)
Free Testosterone: 119.5 35.0-155.0
Estradiol: 54
DHEA: 353 (110-370)
TSH, 3rd gen: 1.99 (0.40-4.50)
T4, Free: 1.1 (0.8-1.8)
T3, Free: 352 (230-420)
Cortisol: 13.6 (am)
IGF-1: 363 (95.0-275) *The doc was blown away by this for some reason.

The doc recently added Anastrozole (Arimidex) 0.5 to lower the estrogen. My main concern is still the dosages of the HCG, which are now ½ ML (1000IU) every day. The Arimidex is also taken once a day as well. Now, I have been told that this is a normal dosage amount when one if first prescribed HCG for low testosterone but I’m going on the 4th month now at that amount. I have also been told that this dosage is way too much and will cause me problems down the road, even reproductive issue which I’m totally trying to avoid. On top of all this, I was just recently informed that I could in fact use a combination of testosterone and HCG with less potential for issues than HCG alone.

I have discussed the high dosages of the HCG with my doc several times and he says to stay at that dosage level.

I need some legit advice on where to go with this.

Thanks for any help.

ColtSSBR

There is two or three guys who are able to do a whole TRT with long term HCG only.
You are not one of them.
Change your protocol to

EOD EveryOtherDay
T-shot=40mg=20units=140mg/week
HCG-shot=200iu
Anastrozole=20units=0.2cc=0.2mg=0.7mg/week

Arimidex(pills)=Anastrozole(liquid)=Liquidex(liquid)

Do (T + HCG+Anastrozole)
one day next day free
==========================================
After 2-3 months do testing per list.

But after 3 weeks on this protocol, check Estradiol.
You want to aim at 20, adjust anastrozole +-.
==========================================

List of tests for TRT to be done at Quest Diagnostics:

2 --------- CBC w/ diff/PLT
14 --------- Ferritin (457X) - (22764P)
38 --------- Prolactin - (746X)
39 --------- Progesterone, LC/MS/MS 17183X
40 --------- Pregnenolone, LC/MS/MS (31493X) 28373P
41 --------- Androstenedione, LC/MS/MS - (17182X)
42 --------- Estradiol [4021X](13- 54 pg/mL)
43 --------- Estrogens, Fractionated, LC/MS/MS (36742X)
44 --------- Testosterone, Free, Bio/Total (LC/MS/MS) Code: 14966X
45 --------- Dihydrotestosterone
46 --------- 3a-Androstanediol Glucuronide
==========================================
IGF-1: 363 (95.0-275)

it is usually very nice.

But at certain point it also may mean cancer somewhere.

Just guessing, you are still in very nice range,
but if it keeps going up for no apparent reason we have to do some investigations.


...

...

 

[ColtSSBR]

JanSz,
I should have been a little more clear.
The doc upped my Anastrozole from .5mg EOD to .5mg ED.
This was after taking .5mg EOD for several weeks and my Estradiol went up from 51 to 54.
I know this is due to the high HCG dosages and will try to get on a system similar to what you suggested.

 

[Mikey851]

JanSz,
I should have been a little more clear.
The doc upped my Anastrozole from .5mg EOD to .5mg ED.
This was after taking .5mg EOD for several weeks and my Estradiol went up from 51 to 54.
I know this is due to the high HCG dosages and will try to get on a system similar to what you suggested.

JanSz know's his stuff.

 

[Philec48]

Add fish oil to help joints. EV coconut oil may also help, not positive, but will still be a great muscle fuel to help recovery. Add an extra day or two of rest as well for recovery.
:redeemerwhore:

Mikey851,
Do you use the products on TRT? This is another area that there is not much info about- TRT and bodybuilding supplements (exe Prohormones).
I do feel better but one thing I have really noticed is that my strength is going way up to the point where I’m actually having a tough time recuperating. My joints, which never really bothered me before, are taking a beating now.
HCG does not really shine as a muscle builder and I’m wondering if the testosterone would be better in the area as well (never used it before).

Thank you guys for the input

 

[southpaw41]

what changes have you noticed after a couple months on trt?
-better mood?
-any increase in body/facial hair?
-how your sex drive/performance?

 

[ColtSSBR]

what changes have you noticed after a couple months on trt?
-better mood?
-any increase in body/facial hair?
-how your sex drive/performance?

First off, I never had any sexual disfunction......just not interested due to the extreme fatigue I had all the time. Now that I'm feeling better, I'm pretty much back to how I normally operate

Results thus far:
Better mood including a little more aggression (plus or minus at times).
I would say yes to a slight increase in body/facial hair.
Much better workouts and focus in general.
Definitely an improvement in feeling tired and worn down all the time.

 

[ColtSSBR]

Philic48,
I take:
6gm Fish Oil
2gm Sesamin
9gm CLA
Every Day.

 

[CerebralSteel]

Test Cyp + hCG?

I am currently on Test Cyp 200mg IM Q2weeks + hCG 1000 I.U. Days 5/12 + hCG 500 I.U. Days 6/13.

Any opinions? Goal is to increase Total T >600 + maintain testicular volume/func, so return to "baseline" will be easier.

 

[Steveoph]

I can't understand your hCG schedule, please clarify what you meant.
100mg of Test weeklyy + hCG is a good long term HRT therapy.
When you say "return to baseline" is this a restart protocol or something? Do you plan to get off HRT?

 

[JanSz]

JanSz,
I should have been a little more clear.
The doc upped my Anastrozole from .5mg EOD to .5mg ED.
This was after taking .5mg EOD for several weeks and my Estradiol went up from 51 to 54.
I know this is due to the high HCG dosages and will try to get on a system similar to what you suggested.

You should newer use Anastrozole more than about 1.5mg/week

Reduce your HCG dose to HCG-shot=150iu
you may even do HCG E4D using 150iu per shot

unless you want her to get pregnant, you want just enough HCG so your scrotum and testicless feel good.

HCG brings E2, be carefull, do not take too much.


..

 

[JanSz]

I am currently on Test Cyp 200mg IM Q2weeks + hCG 1000 I.U. Days 5/12 + hCG 500 I.U. Days 6/13.

Any opinions? Goal is to increase Total T >600 + maintain testicular volume/func, so return to "baseline" will be easier.

Very bad system.

If you are afraid of big and long needles, good, I do not like them either.

Use these and you will not even know you had a shot.

BD Ultrafine II U-100 Insulin Syringe 31 Gauge 3/10cc 5/16inch Short Needle--1/2 Unit Markings 100/b
=========================

In 14 days you are using
200mg test
and
1500iu-HCG

Do not change average weekly doses, increase frequency.

200/7=29mg
1500/7=200iu

T-shot=29mg=14.5units
HCG-shot=200iu

Do both shots one day next day free of shots.

.............

 

[colkurtz_spf]

I agree with you. 600ng/dl of T is not much of a return on 7000IUs of HCG. I think he should consider an exogenous source of T.

That said, I'm not much of a believer in desensitization. I have been on monotherapy for four years. Year one I injected 8000 to 10,000 IUs per week. Year two I scaled down to 4000 IUs per week. I always divide the dose in half (in this case 2000 twice per week). Year 3 I injected 750 twice per week. My total T was in the low to mid 900s and free was in the mid to upper 200s. I felt good , but had to supplement with Arimidex. Now I inject 600 twice per week. Total T is in the mid 800s and free is just over 200. My E2 is 32, which is higher than it was when I took Arimidex, but I feel good so I've dropped it from my regimen.

I was never convinced by the paper that was posted to support desensitization. I would think my leydig cells would be burned out by now.

The only point in monotherapy is my opinion is to avoid using testosterone, right? Why are we trying to avoid testosterone? So that the nuts won't shutdown and we can let as much of the body's system work as possible by stimulating it with HCG only.

However, I think its just not practical to rely on monotherapy alone. There is a reason you are not producing adaquate levels and its most likely not soley because your pituitary is underproductive. So by "bypassing" the pituitarys signal with HCG, you'll certainly be maxing out the signal to the leydig cells...but at what optimal use?

This is essentially like flooring a car with 2 blown cylinders. You are revving the engine and pushing it as hard as possible to make up for the lack of self-efficiency in the system.

This just does not seem like a smart thing to do if its requiring your current dosing amount. You nuts are obviously taking a HUGE amount of stimulation to only produce 600ng/dl. There are some guys on monotherapy that use 1500iu/week and get numbers above 1000ng/dl.

I think monotherapy should only be used with patients that are purely 100% pituitary based hypogandal. Otherwise, you are overcompensating for weak leydig cells by shoving 7,000IU!!! of HCG at them. This is what may eventually lead to progesterone issues, volitale E2 levels, and the possibly dreadful further inefficiency to LH.

In my humble opinion, I believe that hormone replacement for someone like yourself should certainly utilize HCG, but at a much smaller amount, while compensating with exogeneous T.

IE, lets say you drop the HCG to 1000iu/week. Your E2 will fall like a rock, your progesterone will drop to normal levels, your pregnenalone if messed up should balance out, and unfortunately your T levels will crash. However, the stimulation from 1000iu/week will help to maintain adaquate testicular size, leydig/serotoli health. THEN, make up the difference with testerone. Testosterone is cheap and easy to dose. Use the shot once a week or the cream ED. Use enough to get your levels where you are satisfied.

This method should be much more reliable and predictable. The T levels going in will atleast somewhat predict the T levels you recieve. You are still using HCG to keep the system working. Not to mention, costs will be much lower than using a bottle a week of HCG. You won't have to use as much arimidex.

Now, someone tell me what possible advantage there is to using 7000iu's solo vs HCG+T

 

[longrob]

Hiya Colkurtz,
I am trying to determine a good hCG supplementation to my EOD total of 90 mg of T-Cyp per week.
Some do EOD, and I see you do twice a week. Dr Crisler recommends two consecutive days just before the next shot.
With 100mg/wk of T Cyp and once a week dose of hCG at 200 iu, I was at 1050TT and free 300.
I have scaled back the T to 90mg and have since got a Rx for Arimidex. My E2 was not ideal at 39 and the doc agreed to a Rx.
I must admit I like the way I feel on the hCG and would like to do it at least twice a week now that I have the A-dex. Are labs the best way and what numbers am I looking for?
-Rob

 

[ColtSSBR]

Update 05/2010 TEST CYPO

I recently got a third opinion on my concerns/issues.
This time, I feel the doc is on the same page and he was literally blown away by the amount of HCG I was prescribed. He actually told me not to use any HCG until next month to give my system a break from all of the HCG. At that point, I am to add the HCG into the following dosage protocol.

New protocol:

Test Cypo 1x a week at 150Mg/ML
HCG 500ML once on day 5 and again on day 6,which I will reduce to 250.
Arimidex .5mg EOD

This protocol is specifically prescribed to address my issues and concerns.

Thought?

 

[colkurtz_spf]

My protocol wouldn't pertain to your regimen because you are on testosterone injections. I understand Dr. Crisler's protocol, and believe it's sound. I can see the sense in adding the HCG as testosterone begins to taper off. It's a good way to boost levels and maintain testes. Apparently it's working for you. How do you feel?

Dr. Crisler recommends dosing HCG every three days for his transdermal patients. That's close to twice per week, and makes sense as well since TD users maintain steady levels.

Hiya Colkurtz,
I am trying to determine a good hCG supplementation to my EOD total of 90 mg of T-Cyp per week.
Some do EOD, and I see you do twice a week. Dr Crisler recommends two consecutive days just before the next shot.
With 100mg/wk of T Cyp and once a week dose of hCG at 200 iu, I was at 1050TT and free 300.
I have scaled back the T to 90mg and have since got a Rx for Arimidex. My E2 was not ideal at 39 and the doc agreed to a Rx.
I must admit I like the way I feel on the hCG and would like to do it at least twice a week now that I have the A-dex. Are labs the best way and what numbers am I looking for?
-Rob