Topic of the Week: Is going on HRT still natural to you?

[digitalpimp]

In terms of fairness in bodybuilding and sports yes I do

But the use of exogenous hormones in any scenario s technically not natural

This ^^^^

 

[kisaj]

I don't feel that TRT is natural just by the fact that we are introducing exogenous test to bring our levels to normal ranges. Natural, to me, would be doing all that we can to get the best levels possible and what we are left with is natural. Outside of that, we are bringing our levels to a range that we could not normally obtain, so there is obvious advantage in doing so.

 

[Chuck Diesel]

I don't feel that TRT is natural just by the fact that we are introducing exogenous test to bring our levels to normal ranges. Natural, to me, would be doing all that we can to get the best levels possible and what we are left with is natural. Outside of that, we are bringing our levels to a range that we could not normally obtain, so there is obvious advantage in doing so.

Trt isnt natural. Natural is eating broccoli to reduce estrogen. Here is my rule of thumb. If it isn't found in a plant AND it has some androgenic/ananbolic effect in its ingested state ie binds to some receptor without conversion....its not natural. People who say TRT is natural want to feel good abt the hormones they are on. If I was on TRT id just b like fck it im on some juice that i cant get arrested for. Im winning. But I woudnt play the BS natual mind trick on myself

 

[Shasow]

People who say TRT is natural want to feel good abt the hormones they are on.

Not all people. I'd imagine some would say it puts them back into natural testosterone ranges. Which is true if thats how they meant it.

But whether its natural or not is not why people actually argue about it. Its the feeling that this person now has an advantage for XYZ that stirs up the heated debate. I'd always tackle the issue from this angle personally.

 

[Chuck Diesel]

Not all people. I'd imagine some would say it puts them back into natural testosterone ranges. Which is true if thats how they meant it.

But whether its natural or not is not why people actually argue about it. Its the feeling that this person now has an advantage.

Its not putting you back in natural range bc you,didnt make the testosterone. What it is doing is just showing you a level of test in your body synthetic and natural combined. Thats like saying normal people have $2000 in the bank. One guy worked a 9-5 and has 1800 in the bank another,guy worked and has $1000 from work and $800 from robbing a gas station so its still $1800 and in normal range

 

[Jiigzz]

Rules constantly change based on new information and viewpoints, therefore I question them. They literally don't make sense when it comes to supplements/ped's/steroids.

Steroids in sports does not bode well for the parents of children. The use of steroids is there to create the illusion of exceptionally natural talented and hardworking athletes not ones created through the use of PEDs.

Its about illusion

 

[Shasow]

Its not putting you back in natural range bc you,didnt make the testosterone.

Would you except the word "normal". I'm just saying people may use the other word meaning the same thing. Or maybe you don't even see it as putting you back into normal ranges?

 

[Chuck Diesel]

Would you except the word "normal". I'm just saying people may use the other word meaning the same thing. Or maybe you don't even see it as putting you back into normal ranges?

Yes normal. Like taking blood pressure meds to get down to 120/118.

 

[McCrew530]

Its not putting you back in natural range bc you,didnt make the testosterone. What it is doing is just showing you a level of test in your body synthetic and natural combined. Thats like saying normal people have $2000 in the bank. One guy worked a 9-5 and has 1800 in the bank another,guy worked and has $1000 from work and $800 from robbing a gas station so its still $1800 and in normal range

What about people who take a therapeutic dose insulin? Would you say that they are not natural because they have diabetes?

 

[kisaj]

Would you except the word "normal". I'm just saying people may use the other word meaning the same thing. Or maybe you don't even see it as putting you back into normal ranges?

This is what I was thinking. Using natural when they mean normal. And really, there is no normal, there is only physiological range.

 

[McCrew530]

Steroids in sports does not bode well for the parents of children. The use of steroids is there to create the illusion of exceptionally natural talented and hardworking athletes not ones created through the use of PEDs.

Its about illusion

This is very true, however these people are pushing their bodies well above a "normal range" to gain a true hormonal edge. What if a kid had cancer took chemo and it killed his bodies ability to produce testosterone. Said kid needed the hormonal injections to be in a standard range. Is this kid a "cheater'?

 

[Shasow]

This is very true, however these people are pushing their bodies well above a "normal range" to gain a true hormonal edge. What if a kid had cancer took chemo and it killed his bodies ability to produce testosterone. Said kid needed the hormonal injections to be in a standard range. Is this kid a "cheater'?

In this scenario it really doesn't matter if its natural because you are saving someones life or making it last longer, etc. You see how the REASON behind the usage make a difference? Same with athletics or BBing the reason behind it is it gives you a major advantage. But the former (child with cancer) wont get peoples backs up but the latter will in many cases. In either case its not that its natural or not natural thats the point its the reason behind the usage.

I've said that 3 times now lol no more.

You can even take me for example, I get a decent prescribed dose due to whats up with me. Do you think I give a flying crap if its natural or not if it allows me to live normally? LOL I wont even answer that because you know already.

 

[McCrew530]

In this scenario it really doesn't matter if its natural because you are saving someones life or making it last longer, etc. You see how the REASON behind the usage make a difference? Same with athletics or BBing the reason behind it is it gives you a major advantage. But the former (child with cancer) wont get peoples backs up but the latter will in many cases. In either case its not that its natural or not natural thats the point its the reason behind the usage.

I've said that 3 times now lol no more.

You can even take me for example, I get a decent prescribed dose due to whats up with me. Do you think I give a flying crap if its natural or not if it allows me to live normally? LOL I wont even answer that because you know already.

Im going to say that you give.... hmmm how many fks.... im going with zero LOL!
And absolutely the hypothetical moral concept is not the concern. But the debate was not on people taking large quantities of testosterone to push them far and beyond their natural levels but whether or not people receiving therapeutic doses of TRT could still be considered natural due to the fact that their bodies are deficient in the hormone that makes us men and keeps them at par with the same people who do not have the same condition.

 

[kisaj]

This is very true, however these people are pushing their bodies well above a "normal range" to gain a true hormonal edge. What if a kid had cancer took chemo and it killed his bodies ability to produce testosterone. Said kid needed the hormonal injections to be in a standard range. Is this kid a "cheater'?

IMO, he's not a cheater, but he is also not natural.

 

[Chuck Diesel]

What about people who take a therapeutic dose insulin? Would you say that they are not natural because they have diabetes?

Same as w blood pressure medicine. It means their insulin is not being controlled naturally. Same w ppl on T3. I think you guys think natual meals "within normal limits" but it doesnt also everyone seems to frown down and think hormone therapy is cheating so people try to justify it and label it natural. Take it for what it is. 90% of the ppl on HRT dont need it btw.

 

[kisaj]

Eagerly waiting on your source of information for the 90% statistic.

 

[Chuck Diesel]

Eagerly waiting on your source of information for the 90% statistic.

Im saying in general. Like how ppl will be like "my test is 350. I need my doc to put me on trt"

 

[kisaj]

Ok, I gotcha. Well, my stance has always been that these anti-aging clinics are the worst thing going when it comes to education and awareness of TRT and hormone replacement. There is no diligence and care for the patients, only the bottom line. I don't know any statistics, but would agree that many people on, never needed to be.

 

[McCrew530]

Same as w blood pressure medicine. It means their insulin is not being controlled naturally. Same w ppl on T3. I think you guys think natual meals "within normal limits" but it doesnt also everyone seems to frown down and think hormone therapy is cheating so people try to justify it and label it natural. Take it for what it is. 90% of the ppl on HRT dont need it btw.

I would say a majority of the people who are on it want to be on it due to some deficiency that they are feeling. Need is another story. Look at the blade runner he probably wants legs but he doesn't need them to be super fast LOL.
Also it is my opinion that if you are in normal limits than you are natural but that's what is great about opinions. The interpretation of the governing body though and the rules that they inject into the sport are cut and dry but we are talking more about ones thoughts not the rules set up.

 

[Chuck Diesel]

I would say a majority of the people who are on it want to be on it due to some deficiency that they are feeling. Need is another story. Look at the blade runner he probably wants legs but he doesn't need them to be super fast LOL.
Also it is my opinion that if you are in normal limits than you are natural but that's what is great about opinions. The interpretation of the governing body though and the rules that they inject into the sport are cut and dry but we are talking more about ones thoughts not the rules set up.

This is true but normal and natural are confused and consumers have confused themselves

 

[Chuck Diesel]

I would say a majority of the people who are on it want to be on it due to some deficiency that they are feeling. Need is another story. Look at the blade runner he probably wants legs but he doesn't need them to be super fast LOL.
Also it is my opinion that if you are in normal limits than you are natural but that's what is great about opinions. The interpretation of the governing body though and the rules that they inject into the sport are cut and dry but we are talking more about ones thoughts not the rules set up.

Also within normal limits only pertain to testosterone. Prople get on hgh and there are no normal limits for hgh

 

[Jiigzz]

This is very true, however these people are pushing their bodies well above a "normal range" to gain a true hormonal edge. What if a kid had cancer took chemo and it killed his bodies ability to produce testosterone. Said kid needed the hormonal injections to be in a standard range. Is this kid a "cheater'?

Ive always maintained intent is important. Ronnie Coleman and Lance Armstrong intended to exceed the normal physiological ranges through their use of PEDs and that gives them an advantage over those who dont. Ronnies physique could never be attained naturally and I doubt he would consider himself natty

 

[JeremyNG25]

The answer is No it's not natural. Natural for you would be how you are wiylthout having to inject a STEROID into your body. It confuses me how anyone could possibly say they are natural while being on TRT. You can get your testosterone levels to that of a teenager at the age of 35 on TRT that is not natural...ever. Guys just minimize it to save their self esteem and to gain approval from others so they can say "this isn't the TRT making me look this way at 40 yrs old it's all me." Absolute bull.

 

[JeremyNG25]

Ok, I gotcha. Well, my stance has always been that these anti-aging clinics are the worst thing going when it comes to education and awareness of TRT and hormone replacement. There is no diligence and care for the patients, only the bottom line. I don't know any statistics, but would agree that many people on, never needed to be.

This is 100 percent correct. In Florida they will even falsify blood tests for you for a price. This is no joke

 

[Chuck Diesel]

The answer is No it's not natural. Natural for you would be how you are wiylthout having to inject a STEROID into your body. It confuses me how anyone could possibly say they are natural while being on TRT. You can get your testosterone levels to that of a teenager at the age of 35 on TRT that is not natural...ever. Guys just minimize it to save their self esteem and to gain approval from others so they can say "this isn't the TRT making me look this way at 40 yrs old it's all me." Absolute bull.

This is pretty much it. At 60. Imma go get on hgh....and not be walking around talking abt in natural

 

[Otheridstaken]

Some 'fault' lies with the fans. The more respected or worshiped an athlete is the more pressure to be great. Being great equals more retail sales of that persons merchandise.
Without cortisone shots it would just be a game of musical chairs with people on the bench.

Maybe Brady deflated those balls to prevent his teammates from using PED's. What a guy.

 

[Admin]

I believe that steroids produce a growth which can genetically alter your normal biological limit. Platelet injections wouldn't allow you to grow like steroid use. Cortisol shots allow recovery but they also hinder recover and thin cartlidge.

They allow you to recover from sever injuries much faster. That in itself is doing something that is beyond your natural "genetic" limit.

Streroids can take you to a level beyond your genetics, but only if dosed at high amounts. People on HRT do not experience such things. Its a ban simply because its injecting testosterone, whether its 50mg or 500mg.

 

[Admin]

Well if i dont need Cortisone and I take a shot....it will not enhance my performance. Some sports dont allow them such as boxing. They also probably treat it as a pain reliever like ibuprofen or acetaminophen. Idk. Cortisone isnt allowed before a boxing match title fight

It won't enhance your performance? So running down the field when your knee is bone on bone isn't enhancing your performance?

You should be on the side line but a drug is allowing you to play.

 

[Admin]

Steroids in sports does not bode well for the parents of children. The use of steroids is there to create the illusion of exceptionally natural talented and hardworking athletes not ones created through the use of PEDs.

Its about illusion

Agreed. My point is more about HRT though, not taking large doses.

 

[Admin]

http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/12/02/doping.golfer/index.html

Doug Barron sued the PGA to get an answer. In November, the 40-year-old from Memphis, Tennessee, became the first player in professional golf to be suspended for doping.

The dope in this case is synthetic testosterone and beta blockers.

Barron, a journeyman who has played Tour events for more than a decade, says he had been taking the blockers to treat a heart condition since 1987. Long banned in Olympic sports from bobsled to diving, beta blockers also reduce anxiety and muscle tremor and can sharpen focus and precision.

Barron has another health problem: extremely low testosterone. Since 2005, he has been getting monthly shots of synthetic testosterone, which is also banned from most professional sports. Testosterone, naturally occurring or synthetic, promotes muscle mass and strength, among other things.

The golfer's natural testosterone count when he was prescribed the shots was 78 nanograms per deciliter of blood. Most healthy men his age have a testosterone level between 300 and 500.



Banned!!!

Is this guy cheating or just trying to live a normal life.

 

[mixedup]

http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/12/02/doping.golfer/index.html

Doug Barron sued the PGA to get an answer. In November, the 40-year-old from Memphis, Tennessee, became the first player in professional golf to be suspended for doping.

The dope in this case is synthetic testosterone and beta blockers.

Barron, a journeyman who has played Tour events for more than a decade, says he had been taking the blockers to treat a heart condition since 1987. Long banned in Olympic sports from bobsled to diving, beta blockers also reduce anxiety and muscle tremor and can sharpen focus and precision.

Barron has another health problem: extremely low testosterone. Since 2005, he has been getting monthly shots of synthetic testosterone, which is also banned from most professional sports. Testosterone, naturally occurring or synthetic, promotes muscle mass and strength, among other things.

The golfer's natural testosterone count when he was prescribed the shots was 78 nanograms per deciliter of blood. Most healthy men his age have a testosterone level between 300 and 500.



Banned!!!

Is this guy cheating or just trying to live a normal life.

Normal life if his level with hrt doesn't go over 500 as long as hrt has test levels within range for his age group

 

[Admin]

Normal life if his level with hrt doesn't go over 500 as long as hrt has test levels within range for his age group

Yes but if he takes HRT and it reads 200, he's banned.

 

[kisaj]

He's not cheating unless there is something specifically stating in their PGA rules that you cannot be on exogenous testosterone. Andy yes, he is trying to lead a normal life.

 

[kisaj]

Normal life if his level with hrt doesn't go over 500 as long as hrt has test levels within range for his age group

There is no such thing as a normal level for an age group.

 

[Admin]

He's not cheating unless there is something specifically stating in their PGA rules that you cannot be on exogenous testosterone. Andy yes, he is trying to lead a normal life.

There is, in almost all sports. No injectable test. Period.

 

[Jiigzz]

There is, in almost all sports. No injectable test. Period.

Use transdermal then...






















Odd rules are odd. They need caveats

 

[kisaj]

There is, in almost all sports. No injectable test. Period.

If it is in there, then it could be considered cheating simply because they are breaking the rules of that organization.

edit:

Keep in mind that while the intentions of the athletes may be good, there is nothing to stop them from blasting during training and then coming into physiological levels for the competitions, which would clearly give an advantage.

 

[Admin]

Use transdermal then...






















Odd rules are odd. They need caveats

Or patch.

Then again, illegal in sports.

Their reasoning is, guys load up in the off season or when they are not tested, then taper down. So the rule hurts those who medically need it because of bad apples.

 

[Admin]

If it is in there, then it could be considered cheating simply because they are breaking the rules of that organization.

Well yeah...my point being, the organization's rules don't make much sense.

Most consider HRT cheating.

 

[mixedup]

There is no such thing as a normal level for an age group.

I didn't realize that how do they determine high or low levels than when tested?

 

[Chuck Diesel]

It won't enhance your performance? So running down the field when your knee is bone on bone isn't enhancing your performance?

You should be on the side line but a drug is allowing you to play.

It isnt allowing you to out perform anyone. Also its not legal anyway

 

[kisaj]

mixedup Much of it is subjective if still within range and in big part why a good specialist won't chase numbers, but rather, treat symptoms. But, they cannot take an arbitrary number range and say that this is what a 42 year old should be in because it varies from each individual. That is why there is a range in the labs and the ages that they use to determine that range. Even when on TRT, it cannot be said where you should be at within that. While 600 levels may make me feel great and address symptoms, another person my same age may need to be in the 800s, or maybe in the 500s. It is very individual.

 

[Chuck Diesel]

http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/12/02/doping.golfer/index.html

Doug Barron sued the PGA to get an answer. In November, the 40-year-old from Memphis, Tennessee, became the first player in professional golf to be suspended for doping.

The dope in this case is synthetic testosterone and beta blockers.

Barron, a journeyman who has played Tour events for more than a decade, says he had been taking the blockers to treat a heart condition since 1987. Long banned in Olympic sports from bobsled to diving, beta blockers also reduce anxiety and muscle tremor and can sharpen focus and precision.

Barron has another health problem: extremely low testosterone. Since 2005, he has been getting monthly shots of synthetic testosterone, which is also banned from most professional sports. Testosterone, naturally occurring or synthetic, promotes muscle mass and strength, among other things.

The golfer's natural testosterone count when he was prescribed the shots was 78 nanograms per deciliter of blood. Most healthy men his age have a testosterone level between 300 and 500.



Banned!!!

Is this guy cheating or just trying to live a normal life.

If he wasnt playing golf he wouldnt be cheating. If he used beta blockers and they are banned by the PGA. He broke the rules and should know them.

 

[Admin]

It isnt allowing you to out perform anyone. Also its not legal anyway

HRT wont either.

 

[Admin]

If he wasnt playing golf he wouldnt be cheating. If he used beta blockers and they are banned by the PGA. He broke the rules and should know them.

Yet drugs that do restore normal levels of chemicals, like anti-depressants, are allowed.

But I know..rules are the rules are the rules...no matter how stupid they are.

Glad the actual law isn't like that.

 

[Admin]

mixedup Much of it is subjective if still within range and in big part why a good specialist won't chase numbers, but rather, treat symptoms. But, they cannot take an arbitrary number range and say that this is what a 42 year old should be in because it varies from each individual. That is why there is a range in the labs and the ages that they use to determine that range. Even when on TRT, it cannot be said where you should be at within that. While 600 levels may make me feel great and address symptoms, another person my same age may need to be in the 800s, or maybe in the 500s. It is very individual.

Very true. But in this day and age, we can put a man on the moon but can't let a guy showing a level in the 70's play golf if he takes a shot.

:lol:

 

[Otheridstaken]

Very true. But in this day and age, we can put a man on the moon but can't let a guy showing a level in the 70's play golf if he takes a shot.

:lol:

Are astronauts on PED's? Is that why we beat the Russians? We can use that same logic for the Olympics. As long as we beat the Russians.

 

[Chuck Diesel]

HRT wont either.

Yeah HRT will. If i get on HRT i know im going to become a,beast bc I dont need it. I mean lile how low should your levels be to be on HRT? When I lived in Florida your test levels could be at 700 and they still would put you on if you were paying

 

[Admin]

Yeah HRT will. If i get on HRT i know im going to become a,beast bc I dont need it. I mean lile how low should your levels be to be on HRT? When I lived in Florida your test levels could be at 700 and they still would put you on if you were paying

No, HRT won't.

If you are going to use the criteria that anything that helps performance should be banned, then be prepared to ban everything.

 

[Admin]

Are astronauts on PED's? Is that why we beat the Russians? We can use that same logic for the Olympics. As long as we beat the Russians.

We didn't beat the Russians. They were the first in space which gave us the motivation to go the moon. Without the Russians, we wouldn't have gone.