The dangerous anabolic addiction

[p1nchharmonic]

Earlier this year, I finally took the plunge and started cycling (I'm 30). Just did a test cycle back in march, now im just starting low dose test with primo and superdrol. Honestly, the feeling of being on gear is so incredible to me. Ive had relationship issues in the past and general depression, I've decided that gear and getting huge has taken a priority in my life... It's almost like after lifting all my life, anabolics have opened up that "amazing 3D" look and its almost like nothing else matters to me now. I'm interested to hear if others have used gear in their life just to fill a void, trying to be happier. Thanks for reading.

 

[Mathb33]

Everybody that reaches a certain level with their own physique becomes absolutely addicted. If they say they are not they are lying. The goal is to try and control that addiction with time off or at least time at lower dosages like trt ideally.

 

[enhanced]

I remember, after my 1st cycle, missing that Monday morning and Thursday evening pin.... it was a great cycle and the gains, among everything else was awesome.
Being older, I understand the importance of time on/time off.. We just have to deal with it. During my time off, I do a lot of research to pass the time and learn as much as possible.

 

[BBiceps]

I never feel anything mentally, definitely not what everyone is talking about, but I am addicted to training so drugs help reaching my goals. But if I was as strong as I wanted I wouldn’t use drugs, it’s fun but it’s annoying as well.

Edited, unfortunately I probably never will get as strong as I want so I might use drugs forever, it’s fvcking annoying but whatever.

 

[Codybenz]

Yeah I somewhat addicted. Not too the point where I don’t take time off, I just feel so good when I’m on, I hate being off. Of course aesthetics are always better when you are on too.

I didn’t start taking AAS until I was 32 and after I was already on TRT. So I figure I can be a little more agressive with my time on/time off since I have all that lost time to make up for.

 

[CroLifter]

Yeah, its EXTREMELY addictive, in the range of hardcore video game addiction.
But i put it to myself this way, because i know how important it is for me to stay off the majority of the year:

My life is pretty boring throughout the year except for the summer, so what should I be doing the gear during autumn/winter for, to be jacked sitting by myself in the office?

Its not like i cant enjoy training and progressing without gear, and i just simply want to feel and look amazing during that one season of the year when i live a bit crazier lifestyle , which is by the way just ending as we speak , 9 months to go, damn man

Shallow, i know.

 

[Whisky]

I’m the same as the above. Defo an element of addiction to how aas make me feel and what they help me achieve

however

unlike my recreational drug/alcohol addictions this enhances my life and makes me a better person imho.

I spent until I was 32 morbidly obese and weak, so I missed what would have been my optimal training years plus we now the impact a high bf has on hormones in men.

i tried as hard as it’s possible to try to gain muscle mutually but was spinning wheels, if I ate a small surplus I would regain fat very easily (I subsequently learnt this is a thing in previously overweight people and then had my genes tested which also aren’t ideal but that’s the hand I have to play). So I could either be lean and weak or fat and a bit stronger

or I can do what I consider to be a sensible use of aas. I gain muscle, the nutrient partitioning overcomes the fat regain issues and effectively allows me to achieve what a 20 year old would do.

I use all the supports and keep doses moderate to medium. Make sure there is time off (or cruising) and get bloods regularly.

addiction - yeah probably but destructive addiction, imho no

I’m soooo much happier in my life now. I feel good about myself, I’m more fun to be around, I’m more functional. All of that positive stuff is genuinely what I think stopped me turning back to the bottle when I found out my best mate was fucking my wife. I stayed consistent with my training and didn’t want to lose how good I felt about me by drinking it away. Genuinely think it’s the reason I didn’t.

 

[thebigt]

I’m the same as the above. Defo an element of addiction to how aas make me feel and what they help me achieve

however

unlike my recreational drug/alcohol addictions this enhances my life and makes me a better person imho.

I spent until I was 32 morbidly obese and weak, so I missed what would have been my optimal training years plus we now the impact a high bf has on hormones in men.

i tried as hard as it’s possible to try to gain muscle mutually but was spinning wheels, if I ate a small surplus I would regain fat very easily (I subsequently learnt this is a thing in previously overweight people and then had my genes tested which also aren’t ideal but that’s the hand I have to play). So I could either be lean and weak or fat and a bit stronger

or I can do what I consider to be a sensible use of aas. I gain muscle, the nutrient partitioning overcomes the fat regain issues and effectively allows me to achieve what a 20 year old would do.

I use all the supports and keep doses moderate to medium. Make sure there is time off (or cruising) and get bloods regularly.

addiction - yeah probably but destructive addiction, imho no

I’m soooo much happier in my life now. I feel good about myself, I’m more fun to be around, I’m more functional. All of that positive stuff is genuinely what I think stopped me turning back to the bottle when I found out my best mate was fucking my wife. I stayed consistent with my training and didn’t want to lose how good I felt about me by drinking it away. Genuinely think it’s the reason I didn’t.

i'm going to go out on a limb here and say AAS when done properly like someone like you, is a whole lot healthier than alcohol addiction...congrats on not going back to the bottle!!!

 

[Whisky]

i'm going to go out on a limb here and say AAS when done properly like someone like you, is a whole lot healthier than alcohol addiction...congrats on not going back to the bottle!!!

Thank you bro

 

[Codybenz]

I’m the same as the above. Defo an element of addiction to how aas make me feel and what they help me achieve

however

unlike my recreational drug/alcohol addictions this enhances my life and makes me a better person imho.

I spent until I was 32 morbidly obese and weak, so I missed what would have been my optimal training years plus we now the impact a high bf has on hormones in men.

i tried as hard as it’s possible to try to gain muscle mutually but was spinning wheels, if I ate a small surplus I would regain fat very easily (I subsequently learnt this is a thing in previously overweight people and then had my genes tested which also aren’t ideal but that’s the hand I have to play). So I could either be lean and weak or fat and a bit stronger

or I can do what I consider to be a sensible use of aas. I gain muscle, the nutrient partitioning overcomes the fat regain issues and effectively allows me to achieve what a 20 year old would do.

I use all the supports and keep doses moderate to medium. Make sure there is time off (or cruising) and get bloods regularly.

addiction - yeah probably but destructive addiction, imho no

I’m soooo much happier in my life now. I feel good about myself, I’m more fun to be around, I’m more functional. All of that positive stuff is genuinely what I think stopped me turning back to the bottle when I found out my best mate was fucking my wife. I stayed consistent with my training and didn’t want to lose how good I felt about me by drinking it away. Genuinely think it’s the reason I didn’t.

I was the same way at 32 whisky. I was in decent shape until I hit 25 and had kids. I was way obese when I decided to do something about it at 30-31. Got tired of spinning my wheels too. Got on TRT and the took the step to AAS.
I’m the same with how AAS changed my life for the better. Feel better, look better, perform better. Good news for me is I have not other addictions. I have never done rec drugs, never even smoked a cigarette and don’t drink much.

 

[StarScream66]

Right now I'm doing my own TRT with Sustanon and Nandrolone, mostly to try and help with my mood. I have anxiety with comorbid major depression. I've only been it on a month so far and haven't noticed anything to help my energy or mood. What compounds would you guys say gave you the best moods and at what dosages? I've heard a lot of people say they felt the best on DHT compounds, but I'm trying to save my hairline.

 

[Codybenz]

Right now I'm doing my own TRT with Sustanon and Nandrolone, mostly to try and help with my mood. I have anxiety with comorbid major depression. I've only been it on a month so far and haven't noticed anything to help my energy or mood. What compounds would you guys say gave you the best moods and at what dosages? I've heard a lot of people say they felt the best on DHT compounds, but I'm trying to save my hairline.

Through some proviron in. It’s pricey but it’s great for the mood without many sides

 

[StarScream66]

Through some proviron in. It’s pricey but it’s great for the mood without many sides

I've always heard of Proviron being used more as an anti-estrogen more than anything else. Plus, since it's 17-aa, you should only take it for a limited amount of time. It sounds like the oral version of masteron.

Bodybuilding.com - Big Cat - In Depth Proviron Profile!

Mesterolone is an orally active, 1-methylated DHT. Like Masteron, but then actually delivered in an oral fashion. DHT is the conversion product of testosterone at the 5-alpha-reductase enzyme, the result being a hormone that is 3 to 4 times as androgenic.

web.archive.org

 

[Codybenz]

@StarScream66 Proviron is one of the mildest steroids hands down. In most places around the world, It’s prescribed long term in place of trt, in conjunction with trt, and believe it or not for infertility in males. It is a heck of a lot safer than that nandrolone you are taking. I’m sure some others can chime in, but proviron on any cycle makes you feel better and the cycle better.

1 Year Oral TRT with Proviron

TRT with Proviron is a great way to increase testosterone without injections! Proviron is a safe steroid with little effect on the liver. Increase T Levels.

dreambody.clinic

Proviron - steroid.com

Proviron is the brand name for the steroid Mesterolone and is used by both men and women. Proviron is not capable of forming estrogen.

www.steroid.com

 

[StarScream66]

@StarScream66 Proviron is one of the mildest steroids hands down. In most places around the world, It’s prescribed long term in place of trt, in conjunction with trt, and believe it or not for infertility in males. It is a heck of a lot safer than that nandrolone you are taking. I’m sure some others can chime in, but proviron on any cycle makes you feel better and the cycle better.

1 Year Oral TRT with Proviron

TRT with Proviron is a great way to increase testosterone without injections! Proviron is a safe steroid with little effect on the liver. Increase T Levels.

dreambody.clinic

Proviron - steroid.com

Proviron is the brand name for the steroid Mesterolone and is used by both men and women. Proviron is not capable of forming estrogen.

www.steroid.com

Thanks. I'll admit I don't know a lot about Proviron. I'll give those articles a read and consider it. But, just out of curiosity, what makes you say the nandrolone is dangerous?

 

[Codybenz]

Thanks. I'll admit I don't know a lot about Proviron. I'll give those articles a read and consider it. But, just out of curiosity, what makes you say the nandrolone is dangerous?

Well first off I’m not against using nandrolone or any 19nor for that matter. But there does seem to be some mounting evidence that long term nandrolone use leads to some brain function impairment. I know this is still up for debate but it may have some merit. Here is one study but you can search the internet and find several articles and videos about the possible risk with nandrolone. Also some evidence of long term erectile disfunction. With its use.

The Impact of Nandrolone Decanoate on the Central Nervous System

Nandrolone is included in the class II of anabolic androgenic steroids (AAS) which is composed of 19-nor-testosterone-derivates. In general, AAS is a broad and rapidly increasing group of synthetic androgens used both clinically and illicitly. AAS in ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

And whether it does or not I was simply pointing out the fact that nandrolone effects multiple hormones in the body and the list of possible side effects is much larger than that of proviron.

proviron is one of the oldest steroids out there if I’m not mistaken and is pretty straight forward in its mechanism and does t effect that many hormones in the body, isn’t that suppressive if any. The list of possible sides is just really small. One of the most well tolerated AAS out there.

 

[StarScream66]

Well first off I’m not against using nandrolone or any 19nor for that matter. But there does seem to be some mounting evidence that long term nandrolone use leads to some brain function impairment. I know this is still up for debate but it may have some merit. Here is one study but you can search the internet and find several articles and videos about the possible risk with nandrolone. Also some evidence of long term erectile disfunction. With its use.

The Impact of Nandrolone Decanoate on the Central Nervous System

Nandrolone is included in the class II of anabolic androgenic steroids (AAS) which is composed of 19-nor-testosterone-derivates. In general, AAS is a broad and rapidly increasing group of synthetic androgens used both clinically and illicitly. AAS in ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

And whether it does or not I was simply pointing out the fact that nandrolone effects multiple hormones in the body and the list of possible side effects is much larger than that of proviron.

I read the study, and I'll post some excerts from it in the next post to just share my opinion about it. It's a systematic review of all rat studies done using nandrolone, so how applicable it is for humans is kind of up in the air. But more on that below.

proviron is one of the oldest steroids out there if I’m not mistaken and is pretty straight forward in its mechanism and does t effect that many hormones in the body, isn’t that suppressive if any. The list of possible sides is just really small. One of the most well tolerated AAS out there.

Well, that's good to know, I appreciate the information man. Like I said, I read that old ancient article from Big Cat (one of my mentors back in the day) and pretty much knew it just to take as an alternative to an anti-estrogen that was also some DHT and had a few other benefits.

I'll also read about it in my copy of Anabolics 11th Edition by William Llewellyn (which is a great book and I highly recommend).

 

[StarScream66]

So, that study was kind of all over the place with what it reviews nadrolone (ND) can do and it's effects in the rats. Here's a few excerpts that I found interesting.

Rossbach et al. [30] demonstrated that AAS can increase excitatory neurotransmission in adult rodents via augmented phosphorylation of the NMDA receptor glutamate which results in an increment of aggression, impulsiveness and irritability in adult and adolescent rats.

The study starts off with a lot of discussion about the abuse of nandrolone and gives me the feeling the authors have a negative anti-drug agenda from the start. This quote about, if true (I'm going to apply if true to everything I quote, since these are studies in rats and a lot of the studies contradict each other) this would apply to ALL AAS, not just ND.

Chronic treatment with ND has been associated with impact on both opioid concentrations and the tachykinin levels in brain areas connected with the control of emotional behavior such as depression, aggression and reward.

This would be a positive thing ND is doing by, somehow, increasing natural endorphin output and decreasing the enzymes that breakdown endorphins.

According to Magnusson K. et al [64] nandrolone administered male rats displayed memory function impairment, possibly via dynorphinergic mechanisms in the hippocampus. The hippocampus is a brain region associated with cognitive function since the limbic brain is linked to several types of learning and memory functions. This region displays a relatively high density of androgen receptors in rats, which suggests a relationship between the androgen receptor and cognitive function [65-69].

I think this is mostly what you're talking about in your post that ND can impair memory function, and the evidence is a bit scant, and I would think that this would apply to all AAS, not just ND if this were true, but in the next quote, we'll see why they make this claim.

Anxiogenic [43] and anxiolytic effects [44] have been associated with nandrolone. Kouvelas D. et al [45] suggest that chronic treatment with high doses of ND induces anxiolytic-type behavior, an impaired social memory, possible spatial learning and recall performance via activation of the central androgenic receptors (ARs)

Nandrolone enhances synaptic currents mediated by the GABAA receptor in the ventromedial nucleus of the hypothalamus, but diminishes them in the pre-optic area [47]. These effects depend on the subunit composition of the GABAA receptor. In the dorsomedial hypothalamus, blockade and enhancement of GABAA-mediated currents are associated to anxiogenic responses [48] and anxiolysis [49], respectively.

This, for me, would actually be an absolute POSITIVE. If true (and I hope it is), anti-anxiety and anxiolytic effects are exactly what I'm looking for! But, if it worked like this, it would work like a benzodiazepine, like Valium. They do impair learning by reducing memory, but that's just a side effect of benzos in general, and if you have major anxiety like I do, it just comes with the territory.

Racca S. et al. [73] evaluated the effects of subchronic administration of ND (once a day for 14 days) on HPAA and CSS response to acute restraint stress (RS). Acute RS produced the following effects: increase in adrenocorticotrophin (ACTH) (both in blood and in pituitary corticotropes) and CORT (in blood), glucocorticoid receptor (GR) reduction in the hippocampus and hypothalamus cytosol and GR translocation in hippocampus nuclear fraction, stimulation of the cortical serotonin re-uptake and activation of hippocampus cytosolic ERK2. ND itself, i.e. in non-stressed rats, had no effect on these parameters, apart from a raise in hippocampus cytosolic phospho-ERK1/2 (hippocampal extracellular signal related kinase) and a decrease of plasma CORT and ACTH levels. In contrast, in stressed ND-treated rats stress-induced plasma ACTH increase and all other above mentioned stress effects were prevented, apart from an increment in pituitary ACTH positive cell density. Although, prolonged supratherapeutical doses of ND administration in rats, did not notably affect HPAA and serotonin transporter activity under no-stress conditions, they may deregulate the stress-induced hormonal cascade which plays a crucial role in depressive psychopathology.

Considerable reduction in CORT plasma levels in rats after ND treatment (15 mg/kg for 14 days) has been noted by Alsio et al [74]. Decreased expression of two key enzymes involved in CORT synthesis (5a-reductase I and 11b-OHase) in adrenals of rats identified after prolonged ND treatment, suggesting that chronic treatment with ND could impair CORT adrenal release by acting on the gene transcription of enzymes involved in CORT synthesis.

Now, this is why I say the study is weird. In the first paragraph, they indicate ND would potentially increase cortisol by increasing adrenocorticotrophin (ACTH), but in the very next paragraph they say it decreases cortisol. So, it's a really weird contrast.

They also include this graphic at the bottom which is really weird and looks like it's taken very much from an anti-drug perspective.

 

[CroLifter]

I just want to chime in andsay that if you are staying on year round ideally you want your "OFF" period to be nothing but testosterone ester putting your levels within the Normal range.

All these add ons may be fine but we really don't know how these will impact cardiovascular and/or neurological health down the line when used long term.

All the evidence unfortunately points to negative impact.

 

[StarScream66]

I just want to chime in andsay that if you are staying on year round ideally you want your "OFF" period to be nothing but testosterone ester putting your levels within the Normal range.

All these add ons may be fine but we really don't know how these will impact cardiovascular and/or neurological health down the line when used long term.

All the evidence unfortunately points to negative impact.

Well, nandrolone is a natural hormone that is produced in the body as well as testosterone. There is no DHT injectable, which is weird when I think about it. I wonder why no one has made dihydrotestosterone + ester. Maybe it just doesn't work very well and that's why there are so SO many DHT derivatives.

But, I haven't seen any evidence cruising on TRT with other stuff can cause a "negative" impact. What exactly do you meanby this?

 

[Codybenz]

@StarScream66 There are DHT injectables. DHB being one of them.

and back to the nandrolone thing, I agree with you most studies are biased and paint a negative picture. Again I’m not trying to say I think nandrolone is bad or wasn’t trying to find a terrible study about it, (too lazy to find everything I’ve read about it lol) I was simply trying to reinforce my original statement about proviron being safer than nandrolone. There are a lot of unknowns about long term 19_nor use.

proviron has been around since like 1930. Still used because it’s safe (relatively speaking) and effective.

and it’s one of the few oral steroids that’s not c17 alkylated, so it’s not that hard on the liver.
In any case, to each his own, I hope you get the mood thing figured out. Let us know what works for you.

 

[thebigt]

you ever notice how when you go to doc with a ailment you have to work your way up starting with the weakest [least possible side effects], until you finally get results with the minimum of side effects....i guess for long-term use this would be a good example to follow-eh?

 

[Whisky]

Well, nandrolone is a natural hormone that is produced in the body as well as testosterone. There is no DHT injectable, which is weird when I think about it. I wonder why no one has made dihydrotestosterone + ester. Maybe it just doesn't work very well and that's why there are so SO many DHT derivatives.

But, I haven't seen any evidence cruising on TRT with other stuff can cause a "negative" impact. What exactly do you meanby this?

errr bro, nandrolone occurs naturally at trace amounts in the body. Testosterone occurs at the exact same level we are talking about dosing it at for trt. That’s a massive difference.

water is essential for life but will kill you if you have too much of it. Most fruit and veg is actually toxic to the body but because the amounts we consume are very small it’s beneficial through the mechanism of hormesis - to say that because something naturally occurs it’s fine to use at a dose far greater than would naturally occur is a flawed argument imo.

The body is used to, and equipped to deal with a trt dose of test. It is not for other compounds.

there are studies that show potential negative cardiovascular impact and neurotoxicity from long term nandrolone use. MPMD did a podcast on a potential compound that may protect against those damaging aspects.

smart money has to be to cruise/trt on test imo

 

[thebigt]

errr bro, nandrolone occurs naturally at trace amounts in the body. Testosterone occurs at the exact same level we are talking about dosing it at for trt. That’s a massive difference.

water is essential for life but will kill you if you have too much of it. Most fruit and veg is actually toxic to the body but because the amounts we consume are very small it’s beneficial through the mechanism of hormesis - to say that because something naturally occurs it’s fine to use at a dose far greater than would naturally occur is a flawed argument imo.

The body is used to, and equipped to deal with a trt dose of test. It is not for other compounds.

there are studies that show potential negative cardiovascular impact and neurotoxicity from long term nandrolone use. MPMD did a podcast on a potential compound that may protect against those damaging aspects.

smart money has to be to cruise/trt on test imo

exactly.

 

[Codybenz]

errr bro, nandrolone occurs naturally at trace amounts in the body. Testosterone occurs at the exact same level we are talking about dosing it at for trt. That’s a massive difference.

water is essential for life but will kill you if you have too much of it. Most fruit and veg is actually toxic to the body but because the amounts we consume are very small it’s beneficial through the mechanism of hormesis - to say that because something naturally occurs it’s fine to use at a dose far greater than would naturally occur is a flawed argument imo.

The body is used to, and equipped to deal with a trt dose of test. It is not for other compounds.

there are studies that show potential negative cardiovascular impact and neurotoxicity from long term nandrolone use. MPMD did a podcast on a potential compound that may protect against those damaging aspects.

smart money has to be to cruise/trt on test imo

Yup. Nandrolone appears in trace amounts as an intermediate during the conversion of test to estrogen in the body. Can’t even be detected in blood work looking for it.

i wasn’t gonna go there. I was just going to let it be.

 

[Renew1]

Yeah, look... I have no issue with anyone.
But some of the new guys will look at long, seemingly detailed posts with references and links ... And take them as factual (and possibly do themselves harm).
I DO have an issue with that.

A BIG ISSUE.

 

[CompoundLifts31]

Everybody that reaches a certain level with their own physique becomes absolutely addicted. If they say they are not they are lying. The goal is to try and control that addiction with time off or at least time at lower dosages like trt ideally.

Exactly. Well put bro...

 

[StarScream66]

@StarScream66 There are DHT injectables. DHB being one of them.

That's not what I meant. DHB is boldenone, I was specifically wondering why no one has dihydrotestosterone cypionate as an available steroid on the market (the cypionate ester just being an example) and why it's not sold as an injectable. This is just a rhetorical question unless someone knows why DHT would make a bad standalone AAS.

and back to the nandrolone thing, I agree with you most studies are biased and paint a negative picture. Again I’m not trying to say I think nandrolone is bad or wasn’t trying to find a terrible study about it, (too lazy to find everything I’ve read about it lol) I was simply trying to reinforce my original statement about proviron being safer than nandrolone. There are a lot of unknowns about long term 19_nor use.

I wasn't trying to insult you or anything by posting all the stuff I found in the study. I was posting it because I thought it was interesting and we could discuss the certain points the study makes.

I know Proviron has been around a long time (I haven't seen a source for it's origins or an article or anything), but I still am concerned about using a 17-aa compound for long periods. The articles say it's safe, but based on what? 19-nor occurs naturally in the body, so my thinking is that it really shouldn't be a problem - of course I could be wrong.

errr bro, nandrolone occurs naturally at trace amounts in the body. Testosterone occurs at the exact same level we are talking about dosing it at for trt. That’s a massive difference.

I couldn't actually find a source showing how much 19-nortestosterone is actually in the male body normally. Can you find one?

UPDATE: I found a source that says 1-2ng of nandrolone exist in the body naturally, so yes, that is very low.

Update on nandrolone and norsteroids: how endogenous or xenobiotic are these substances? - PubMed

Norsteroids are xenobiotics with androgenic and anabolic properties known since as far back as the 1930s. In doping controls, the use of the banned xenobiotic norsteroids is detected in the competitor's urines by the measurement of norandrosterone (19-NA) and noretiocholanolone (19-NE), which...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

water is essential for life but will kill you if you have too much of it. Most fruit and veg is actually toxic to the body but because the amounts we consume are very small it’s beneficial through the mechanism of hormesis - to say that because something naturally occurs it’s fine to use at a dose far greater than would naturally occur is a flawed argument imo.

The body is used to, and equipped to deal with a trt dose of test. It is not for other compounds.

there are studies that show potential negative cardiovascular impact and neurotoxicity from long term nandrolone use. MPMD did a podcast on a potential compound that may protect against those damaging aspects.

smart money has to be to cruise/trt on test imo

Do you have a link to the podcast about the cardio impact of nandrolone? I have trouble seeing that it's neurotoxic. Looking at the study above, it showed increase anti-anxiety properties and increaasing GABA-A.

Ok, cruising on trt sounds absolutely reasonable. I was basically just asking a rhetorical question to see if we could discuss it.

Yeah, look... I have no issue with anyone.
But some of the new guys will look at long, seemingly detailed posts with references and links ... And take them as factual (and possibly do themselves harm).
I DO have an issue with that.

A BIG ISSUE.

Is that a jab at me? I'm not trying to disparage nandrolone, I just want to see the data - because there's actually a lot on it. I don't want to come here and say it's bad, but just for my own intellectual curiosity and post what I find.[/quote][/QUOTE]

 

[Whisky]

That's not what I meant. DHB is boldenone, I was specifically wondering why no one has dihydrotestosterone cypionate as an available steroid on the market (the cypionate ester just being an example) and why it's not sold as an injectable. This is just a rhetorical question unless someone knows why DHT would make a bad standalone AAS.



I wasn't trying to insult you or anything by posting all the stuff I found in the study. I was posting it because I thought it was interesting and we could discuss the certain points the study makes.

I know Proviron has been around a long time (I haven't seen a source for it's origins or an article or anything), but I still am concerned about using a 17-aa compound for long periods. The articles say it's safe, but based on what? 19-nor occurs naturally in the body, so my thinking is that it really shouldn't be a problem - of course I could be wrong.



I couldn't actually find a source showing how much 19-nortestosterone is actually in the male body normally. Can you find one?

UPDATE: I found a source that says 1-2ng of nandrolone exist in the body naturally, so yes, that is very low.

Update on nandrolone and norsteroids: how endogenous or xenobiotic are these substances? - PubMed

Norsteroids are xenobiotics with androgenic and anabolic properties known since as far back as the 1930s. In doping controls, the use of the banned xenobiotic norsteroids is detected in the competitor's urines by the measurement of norandrosterone (19-NA) and noretiocholanolone (19-NE), which...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Do you have a link to the podcast about the cardio impact of nandrolone? I have trouble seeing that it's neurotoxic. Looking at the study above, it showed increase anti-anxiety properties and increaasing GABA-A.

Ok, cruising on trt sounds absolutely reasonable. I was basically just asking a rhetorical question to see if we could discuss it.



Is that a jab at me? I'm not trying to disparage nandrolone, I just want to see the data - because there's actually a lot on it. I don't want to come here and say it's bad, but just for my own intellectual curiosity and post what I find.

[/QUOTE]
[/QUOTE]

Nandrolone Plus Moderate Exercise Increases the Susceptibility to Lethal Arrhythmias

Until now, no experimental study has directly assessed the arrhythmogenesis of chronic consumption of anabolic androgenic steroids along with moderate-intensity endurance exercise.We evaluated the influence of integration of anabolic androgenic steroids ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The effect of nandrolone treatment with and without enforced swimming on histological and biochemical changes in the heart and coronary artery of male rats

Chronic anabolic androgenic steroid (AAS) consumption increases incidence of cardiovascular abnormalities in athletes and mechanisms underlying those abnormalities continue to be investigated. This study examines whether nandrolone consumption induced ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The Nandrolone Effect on Cardiac Muscle of Adult Male Albino Rat and the Possible Role of Nigella sativa: Light and Electron Microscopic Studies

..

www.omicsonline.org

 

[CroLifter]

[/QUOTE]

Nandrolone Plus Moderate Exercise Increases the Susceptibility to Lethal Arrhythmias

Until now, no experimental study has directly assessed the arrhythmogenesis of chronic consumption of anabolic androgenic steroids along with moderate-intensity endurance exercise.We evaluated the influence of integration of anabolic androgenic steroids ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The effect of nandrolone treatment with and without enforced swimming on histological and biochemical changes in the heart and coronary artery of male rats

Chronic anabolic androgenic steroid (AAS) consumption increases incidence of cardiovascular abnormalities in athletes and mechanisms underlying those abnormalities continue to be investigated. This study examines whether nandrolone consumption induced ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The Nandrolone Effect on Cardiac Muscle of Adult Male Albino Rat and the Possible Role of Nigella sativa: Light and Electron Microscopic Studies

..

www.omicsonline.org

[/QUOTE]
Yes this is true, but sth screams at me to chime in again.

All aas are going to cause heart remodelling, and from what i have been able to read, DHT seems to be the biggest offender.

Error - Cookies Turned Off

onlinelibrary.wiley.com

"Minor changes remaining within normal range were observed solely within the testosterone group"

Thia one is in rodents though, but interesting

Trenbolone Improves Cardiometabolic Risk Factors and Myocardial Tolerance to Ischemia-Reperfusion in Male Rats With Testosterone-Deficient Metabolic Syndrome - PubMed

The increasing prevalence of obesity adds another dimension to the pathophysiology of testosterone (TEST) deficiency (TD) and potentially impairs the therapeutic efficacy of classical TEST replacement therapy. We investigated the therapeutic effects of selective androgen receptor modulation with...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

"TEST caused widespread cardiac fibrosis and prostate hyperplasia, which were less pronounced with TREN"


Also

https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/full/10.1161/circulationaha.114.012066

This is not a shot at you @Whisky this was just a chance for me to present this.

Now this is me going full nerd mide but from everything i rrad it APPEARS that dht is the main offender when it come to heart remodeeling. Hence high doses of testosterone are imho really bad and pointless.

this is also why i am so against proviron. Its a dht, it will do this to the heart, and it wont build a gram of mudcle!

Testosterone is the "dirty" hormone due to the dht conversion.


But...what testosterone does that nandrolone doesnt is sufficient estrogen conversion.

This exact esteogen conversion is what protects the heart, protects lipid values, protrcts even your hair, boosts immune system and protects against neurodegeneration which is caused by all androgens. The only reason why testosterone is deemed neuroprotective is aromatization.

So again in my opinion, best bet is to use the lowest effective trt dose, avoid aromatase inhibitors and if you are a high converter, watch dht levels.

 

[Codybenz]

Nandrolone Plus Moderate Exercise Increases the Susceptibility to Lethal Arrhythmias

Until now, no experimental study has directly assessed the arrhythmogenesis of chronic consumption of anabolic androgenic steroids along with moderate-intensity endurance exercise.We evaluated the influence of integration of anabolic androgenic steroids ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The effect of nandrolone treatment with and without enforced swimming on histological and biochemical changes in the heart and coronary artery of male rats

Chronic anabolic androgenic steroid (AAS) consumption increases incidence of cardiovascular abnormalities in athletes and mechanisms underlying those abnormalities continue to be investigated. This study examines whether nandrolone consumption induced ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The Nandrolone Effect on Cardiac Muscle of Adult Male Albino Rat and the Possible Role of Nigella sativa: Light and Electron Microscopic Studies

..

www.omicsonline.org

[/QUOTE]
Yes this is true, but sth screams at me to chime in again.

All aas are going to cause heart remodelling, and from what i have been able to read, DHT seems to be the biggest offender.

Error - Cookies Turned Off

onlinelibrary.wiley.com

"Minor changes remaining within normal range were observed solely within the testosterone group"

Thia one is in rodents though, but interesting

Trenbolone Improves Cardiometabolic Risk Factors and Myocardial Tolerance to Ischemia-Reperfusion in Male Rats With Testosterone-Deficient Metabolic Syndrome - PubMed

The increasing prevalence of obesity adds another dimension to the pathophysiology of testosterone (TEST) deficiency (TD) and potentially impairs the therapeutic efficacy of classical TEST replacement therapy. We investigated the therapeutic effects of selective androgen receptor modulation with...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

"TEST caused widespread cardiac fibrosis and prostate hyperplasia, which were less pronounced with TREN"


Also

https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/full/10.1161/circulationaha.114.012066

This is not a shot at you @Whisky this was just a chance for me to present this.

Now this is me going full nerd mide but from everything i rrad it APPEARS that dht is the main offender when it come to heart remodeeling. Hence high doses of testosterone are imho really bad and pointless.

this is also why i am so against proviron. Its a dht, it will do this to the heart, and it wont build a gram of mudcle!

Testosterone is the "dirty" hormone due to the dht conversion.


But...what testosterone does that nandrolone doesnt is sufficient estrogen conversion.

This exact esteogen conversion is what protects the heart, protects lipid values, protrcts even your hair, boosts immune system and protects against neurodegeneration which is caused by all androgens. The only reason why testosterone is deemed neuroprotective is aromatization.

So again in my opinion, best bet is to use the lowest effective trt dose, avoid aromatase inhibitors and if you are a high converter, watch dht levels.
[/QUOTE]

Of course the best bet is to use lowest possible trt dose, but this is a forum about taking much larger doses and of other compounds as safely as possible. Lol

Im curious though what makes you think DHT alone is the cause of heart problems. And just because a steroid is a DHT derivative does not means it acts like DHT in the body.

 

[CroLifter]

No it doesn't mean it's as bad as dht if it's a derivativr

Anavar is much more anabolic and cleaner than dht yet it's a dht derivative

What makes me think? Improvement in cardiac hypertrophy

Also the fact that it's the strongest androgen yet it provides 0 muscle gains

And all the baggage that comes with it

Talking about straight dht not dht derivatives in general


And that's the thing. When we are talking high doses taking "other things" may be safer for the heart than high test doses barring c 17 aa's and their lipid effects

And I didn't say dht is the sole offender
All androgen in above mid range T levels may be bad for the heart and the brain and they are, dose dependently

This is not me trying to put anyone off. I am here to discuss and I give absolutely 0 sh1t about what and how much anyone uses

Just that the dht is the biggest offender



Sorry for typos on my phone and I got thick fingers

 

[Codybenz]

No it doesn't mean it's as bad as dht if it's a derivativr

Anavar is much more anabolic and cleaner than dht yet it's a dht derivative

What makes me think? Improvement in cardiac hypertrophy

Also the fact that it's the strongest androgen yet it provides 0 muscle gains

And all the baggage that comes with it

Talking about straight dht not dht derivatives in general


And that's the thing. When we are talking high doses taking "other things" may be safer for the heart than high test doses barring c 17 aa's and their lipid effects

And I didn't say dht is the sole offender
All androgen in above mid range T levels may be bad for the heart and the brain and they are, dose dependently

This is not me trying to put anyone off. I am here to discuss and I give absolutely 0 sh1t about what and how much anyone uses

Just that the dht is the biggest offender



Sorry for typos on my phone and I got thick fingers

No I’m geniunely asking where is this info that DHT is the biggest offender of cardiovascular issues coming from.

3 of the so called “safe” steroids are all DHTs
Primo, anavar, tbol. Now obviously this is anecdotal.

however I’ve just never seen any clear cut info stating that about dhts. Is this your opinion or do you believe it to be fact?

 

[Codybenz]

Not trying to sound like a dick, but I just think y’all maybe have some misinformation about proviron.

for instance @StarScream66 stated earlier in this thread that proviron was 17a-alkylated and couldn’t be taken long. That’s false, proviron is one of few oral steroids that is 17aa and has little to no effect on liver as stated in multiple medical drug profiles of Proviron.

 

[Whisky]

Nandrolone Plus Moderate Exercise Increases the Susceptibility to Lethal Arrhythmias

Until now, no experimental study has directly assessed the arrhythmogenesis of chronic consumption of anabolic androgenic steroids along with moderate-intensity endurance exercise.We evaluated the influence of integration of anabolic androgenic steroids ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The effect of nandrolone treatment with and without enforced swimming on histological and biochemical changes in the heart and coronary artery of male rats

Chronic anabolic androgenic steroid (AAS) consumption increases incidence of cardiovascular abnormalities in athletes and mechanisms underlying those abnormalities continue to be investigated. This study examines whether nandrolone consumption induced ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The Nandrolone Effect on Cardiac Muscle of Adult Male Albino Rat and the Possible Role of Nigella sativa: Light and Electron Microscopic Studies

..

www.omicsonline.org

[/QUOTE]
Yes this is true, but sth screams at me to chime in again.

All aas are going to cause heart remodelling, and from what i have been able to read, DHT seems to be the biggest offender.

Error - Cookies Turned Off

onlinelibrary.wiley.com

"Minor changes remaining within normal range were observed solely within the testosterone group"

Thia one is in rodents though, but interesting

Trenbolone Improves Cardiometabolic Risk Factors and Myocardial Tolerance to Ischemia-Reperfusion in Male Rats With Testosterone-Deficient Metabolic Syndrome - PubMed

The increasing prevalence of obesity adds another dimension to the pathophysiology of testosterone (TEST) deficiency (TD) and potentially impairs the therapeutic efficacy of classical TEST replacement therapy. We investigated the therapeutic effects of selective androgen receptor modulation with...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

"TEST caused widespread cardiac fibrosis and prostate hyperplasia, which were less pronounced with TREN"


Also

https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/full/10.1161/circulationaha.114.012066

This is not a shot at you @Whisky this was just a chance for me to present this.

Now this is me going full nerd mide but from everything i rrad it APPEARS that dht is the main offender when it come to heart remodeeling. Hence high doses of testosterone are imho really bad and pointless.

this is also why i am so against proviron. Its a dht, it will do this to the heart, and it wont build a gram of mudcle!

Testosterone is the "dirty" hormone due to the dht conversion.


But...what testosterone does that nandrolone doesnt is sufficient estrogen conversion.

This exact esteogen conversion is what protects the heart, protects lipid values, protrcts even your hair, boosts immune system and protects against neurodegeneration which is caused by all androgens. The only reason why testosterone is deemed neuroprotective is aromatization.

So again in my opinion, best bet is to use the lowest effective trt dose, avoid aromatase inhibitors and if you are a high converter, watch dht levels.
[/QUOTE]

im defo not taking it as a shot at all bro, it’s a good discussion to have as I like deca and run it for 16 weeks so believe me I’d love for some data to show I’m wrong.

I completely agree that most aas can have some of the impact noted to a greater or lesser degree, it was a few things I’d seen/heard of late that appeared to suggest that nanodrolone was one of the worst offenders with regard to neurotoxicity and cardiac systems (note - this could be due to the typically longer cycles one would run?)

Im always up for learning and seeing new information for sure

 

[Whisky]

That's not what I meant. DHB is boldenone, I was specifically wondering why no one has dihydrotestosterone cypionate as an available steroid on the market (the cypionate ester just being an example) and why it's not sold as an injectable. This is just a rhetorical question unless someone knows why DHT would make a bad standalone AAS.



I wasn't trying to insult you or anything by posting all the stuff I found in the study. I was posting it because I thought it was interesting and we could discuss the certain points the study makes.

I know Proviron has been around a long time (I haven't seen a source for it's origins or an article or anything), but I still am concerned about using a 17-aa compound for long periods. The articles say it's safe, but based on what? 19-nor occurs naturally in the body, so my thinking is that it really shouldn't be a problem - of course I could be wrong.



I couldn't actually find a source showing how much 19-nortestosterone is actually in the male body normally. Can you find one?

UPDATE: I found a source that says 1-2ng of nandrolone exist in the body naturally, so yes, that is very low.

Update on nandrolone and norsteroids: how endogenous or xenobiotic are these substances? - PubMed

Norsteroids are xenobiotics with androgenic and anabolic properties known since as far back as the 1930s. In doping controls, the use of the banned xenobiotic norsteroids is detected in the competitor's urines by the measurement of norandrosterone (19-NA) and noretiocholanolone (19-NE), which...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Do you have a link to the podcast about the cardio impact of nandrolone? I have trouble seeing that it's neurotoxic. Looking at the study above, it showed increase anti-anxiety properties and increaasing GABA-A.

Ok, cruising on trt sounds absolutely reasonable. I was basically just asking a rhetorical question to see if we could discuss it.



Is that a jab at me? I'm not trying to disparage nandrolone, I just want to see the data - because there's actually a lot on it. I don't want to come here and say it's bad, but just for my own intellectual curiosity and post what I find.

[/QUOTE]
[/QUOTE]

sorry, missed the request for podcast links - these two are about addressing the issues (sets the context as to the issues occur at the start)

‎More Plates More Dates: Using GH With Nandrolone Reduces Its Neurotoxicity? on Apple Podcasts

‎Show More Plates More Dates, Ep Using GH With Nandrolone Reduces Its Neurotoxicity? - 23 Aug 2020

podcasts.apple.com

‎More Plates More Dates: Nandrolone’s Negative Effects On The Heart COMPLETELY ELIMINATED By Using This Medication!? on Apple Podcasts

‎Show More Plates More Dates, Ep Nandrolone’s Negative Effects On The Heart COMPLETELY ELIMINATED By Using This Medication!? - 17 Aug 2020

podcasts.apple.com

 

[CroLifter]

No I’m geniunely asking where is this info that DHT is the biggest offender of cardiovascular issues coming from.

3 of the so called “safe” steroids are all DHTs
Primo, anavar, tbol. Now obviously this is anecdotal.

however I’ve just never seen any clear cut info stating that about dhts. Is this your opinion or do you believe it to be fact?

I think it may be so due to the study that shows improvement in hypertrophic cardiomyopathy when 5 ar is inhibited.

It may be due to the fact that overall androgen load on the body is reduced when dht is blocked thpugh, and since androgens can stimulate hypertrophic cardiomyopathy it gets better when they are lowered.

But also the study with men taking nand and test and only the test group shwed signs of beginning of thickening of the heart and lowering of EF.


And again as i said before not all dhts are the same. Look at the virilization with say Anavar and primobolan compared to testosterone. Test causes way more virilizarion at comparable dose.


Also i never said that proviro is c 17 aa. Its NOT

Adverse effect of the anabolic–androgenic steroid mesterolone on cardiac remodelling and lipoprotein profile is attenuated by aerobicz exercise training

Abuse of anabolic–androgenic steroids (AAS) for improving physical performance is associated with serious, sometimes fatal, adverse effects. The aim of the present work was to investigate the effects of AAS on the cardiac structure and the plasma ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

But its stilo fukking you up withput providing anymuscle growth benefits. So if its fukking you up why not take sth else that will actually be anabolic.

that is the problem i have with proviron.




And i am about to throw this god damn laggy phone into the wall.

 

[Codybenz]

@CroLifter i said starscream said it was 17aa not you. And fucking you up is a relative term. Very few if any known sides are listed in medical literature for proviron. It’s is and has been prescribed for long term and even permanent use for androgen deficiency.

if you don’t get anything out of it, that’s you. But tons of people including myself and others on this forum love proviron.

and my original statement was that nandralone is more dangerous or “fucking you up more” than proviron would be. And that’s supported medically.
And to answer your question, not every PED or drug we take if for anabolic effects. In fact, I stated to take proviron for its mood benefits, not the anabolic effect. Proviron stacked with multiple
Steroids especially 19nors is very popular stack and has been for years. There is a reason. It works.

 

[CroLifter]

@CroLifter i said starscream said it was 17aa not you. And fucking you up is a relative term. Very few if any known sides are listed in medical literature for proviron. It’s is and has been prescribed for long term and even permanent use for androgen deficiency.

if you don’t get anything out of it, that’s you. But tons of people including myself and others on this forum love proviron.

and my original statement was that nandralone is more dangerous or “fucking you up more” than proviron would be. And that’s supported medically.

that is fine. But i can guarantee that you are not getting any muscle growth out of it.

If ylu think about freeing up other aas through lower shbg, why not take masteron? It is mildly anabolic after all.

Even sth like very low dose anavar is going to drop shbg like proviron and lipid and liver effects shouodnt be too horrible. I know some take like 10-15 mg just for a bit of shbg lowering. And its anabolic.

 

[Codybenz]

Because I’m not taking proviron for its anabolic effects

https://www.bayer.co.za/static/documents/MSDS/PIs/PROVIRON_EN_PI.pdf

My publications - Raw Proviron(Mesterolone) in bodybuilding, dosage, and cycle - Page 4-5 - Created with Publitas.com

www.aasraw.com As discussed above, this drug displays insignificant anabolic features thus commonly referred to as an androgenic steroid. Just like DHT, its

view.publitas.com

One medical and one not.
Both talk about the mood enhancing effects, the libido enhancing effects, increasing Soren count and even reducing the infertility damage caused by other AAS. Etc.

the second article you have to swipe left to right like a book.

It really is great to take with other steroids.

 

[StarScream66]

I just wanted to post this video from Anabolic Doc on Deca + Test for harm reduction

Also i never said that proviro is c 17 aa. Its NOT

I'm pretty sure Proviron is 17-aa. I haven't seen (or did I miss it) anyone post evidence that you can take proviron for long periods without liver damage? I see it being claimed in the articles where the people are selling it, but I'll post from Anabolics 11th Edition by William Llewellyn on Proviron

Non-Alkylated Orals
In an attempt to solve the mentioned problems with liver toxicity we see with
c17-alpha alkylated compounds, a number of other orals with different
chemical alterations (such as Primobolan®, Proviron®, AndriolË, and
Anabolicum Vister) were created. Primobolan® and Proviron® are alkylated
at the one position (methyl), a trait which also slows ketosteroid reduction.
Andriol® uses a 17beta carboxylic acid ester (used with injectable
compounds, discussed below), however, here the oil-dissolved steroid is
sealed in a capsule and is intended for oral administration. This is supposed
to promote steroid absorption through intestinal lymphatic ducts, bypassing
the first pass through the liver. In addition to 1 methylation, Primobolan®
also utilizes a 17 beta ester (acetate) to further protect against reduction to
inactive form (here there is no lymphatic system absorption). Anabolicum
Vister uses 17beta enol ether linkage to protect the steroid, which is very
similar to esterification as the ether breaks off to release a steroid base
(boldenone in this case). While all of these types of compounds do not place
the same stress on the liver, they are also much less resistant to breakdown
than 17 alkylated orals, and are ultimately less active milligram for milligram.

Avoid Toxic Oral Steroids. Aside from Andriol, Primobolan, and Proviron, every oral
steroid discussed in this reference book is a c-17 alpha alkylated compound and should be
avoided whenever possible. While there may be a number of clinical reasons to prescribe
such a drug, when used in the higher doses necessary for muscle growth these agents tend to
have significant negative impacts on certain health markers.Their most notable effect is to
increase the ratio of LDL (bad) to HDL (good) cholesterol in the body, which favors
increased plaque deposition in the arteries. Over time this may increase the risk of heart
disease. C-17 alpha alkylated steroids are also the drugs exclusively associated with strong
liver stress and (rarely) liver cancer. If injection can be tolerated, and moderate physique or
performance improvement is the goal, all of the same results can be achieved without oral
steroids. Note that injectable forms of otherwise oral steroids (such as stanozolol and
methandrostenolone) should also be avoided, as they provide a similar level of hepatic and
cardiovascular strain regardless of the differing route of administration.[.quote]

He seems to be saying Proviron is not dangerous as other stronger methylated steroids are.

Continued..

 

[StarScream66]

Full Profile on Proviron

Description:
Proviron® is Schering’s (now Bayer’s) brand name for the oral androgen mesterolone (1-
methyl dihydrotestosterone). Similar to dihydrotestosterone, mesterolone is a strong
methyl dihydrotestosterone). Similar to dihydrotestosterone, mesterolone is a strong
androgen with only a weak level of anabolic activity. This is due to the fact that like
dihydrotestosterone, mesterolone is rapidly reduced to inactive diol metabolites in muscle
tissue where concentrations of the 3-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase enzyme are high. The
belief that the weak anabolic nature of this compound indicates a tendency to block the
androgen receptor in muscle tissue, thereby reducing the gains of other more potent musclebuilding
steroids, should likewise not be taken seriously. In fact, due to its extremely high
affinity for plasma binding proteins such as SHBG, mesterolone may actually work to
potentate the activity of other steroids by displacing a higher percentage into a free, unbound
state. Among athletes, mesterolone is primarily used to increase androgen levels when dieting
or preparing for a contest, and as an anti-estrogen due to its intrinsic ability to antagonize the
aromatase enzyme.
History:
According to company literature, Schering developed Proviron® in 1934, making this is an
extremely old medication as far as anabolic/androgenic steroids. Schering also states that it
was the first medication put into clinical practice for the treatment of “hormone-related
diseases and complaints in men. ”Accordingly, mesterolone would have been developed
around the same time as methyltestosterone (1935) and testosterone propionate (1937),
which are both very old agents generally considered obsolete by today’s standards. In spite
of its age, Proviron has a long history of clinical effectiveness and safety, and remains in
widespread clinical use today. It is generally prescribed to males for the treatment of
declining physical and mental capacity caused by age and subnormal androgen levels, low
libido caused by insufficient androgen levels, hypogonadism (in pre- and post-pubescent
males), and infertility (in certain situations mesterolone increases the quality and quantity of
sperm).
The use of mesterolone as a fertility aid is perhaps one of the most controversial indications
for this drug considering that anabolic/androgenic steroids are generally linked to infertility. It
is also a use of mesterolone that is quite often misunderstood by athletes. Mesterolone is
applicable here because it is an effective androgen that offers minimal suppression of
gonadotropins in normal therapeutic doses, not because it increases LH output. Absent
gonadotropin suppression, the drug may supplement androgenicity necessary for sperm
production. It is well understood that androgens have direct stimulatory effects on
spermatogenesis, and also influence the transportation and maturation of sperm via effects on
the epididymis, ductus deferens, and seminal vesicles. So the role of these hormones is not
entirely suppressive. Mesterolone seems to have a unique positive influence on certain cases
of male fertility because its potential stimulatory effects on sperm quantity and quality are not
overridden by the suppression of gonadotropins.
Mesterolone is widely manufactured by Bayer (formerly Schering), which currently sells the
drug in more than thirty countries worldwide. The most common brand name used for its sale
is Proviron, although Schering/Bayer has sold the agent under other names in certain
markets, including Mestoranum and Provironum. Additionally, other manufacturers have sold
mesterolone over the years, appearing under such brand names as Pluriviron (Asche,
Germany), Vistimon (Jenepharm, Germany), and Restore (Brown & Burke, India). In spite
of its long track record of safety and efficacy, mesterolone was never approved for sale in
the United States. It remains available in many Western nations, however. Bayer remains the
major (almost exclusive) global supplier of mesterolone today, although on rare occasion
other brands of the drug can be located.
How Supplied:
Mesterolone is widely available in human drug markets. Composition and dosage may vary
by country and manufacturer; preparations generally contain 25 mg or 50 mg of steroid per
tablet.
Structural Characteristics:
Mesterolone is a modified form of dihydrotestosterone. It differs by the addition of a methyl
group at carbon 1, which helps protect the hormone from hepatic metabolism during oral
administration. The same structural modification is also used with oral Primobolan®
(methenolone) tablets. Alkylation at the one position slows hepatic metabolism of the steroid
during the first pass, although much less profoundly than c-17 alpha alkylation. Mesterolone
during the first pass, although much less profoundly than c-17 alpha alkylation. Mesterolone
is resistant enough to breakdown to allow therapeutically beneficial blood levels to be
achieved, although the overall bioavailability remains much lower than c-17 alpha alkylated
oral steroids. Mesterolone also has a very strong binding affinity for Sex Hormone Binding
Globulin.572 This may act to displace other steroids more weakly bound to SHBG into a free
(active) state.
Side Effects (Estrogenic):
Mesterolone is not aromatized by the body, and is not measurably estrogenic. An antiestrogen
is not necessary when using this steroid, as the drug is unlikely to induce
gynecomastia, water retention, or other estrogen-related side effects.
Mesterolone is actually believed to act as an anti-aromatase in the body, preventing or
slowing the conversion of steroids into estrogen. The result is somewhat comparable to
Arimidex®, although less profound. The anti-estrogenic properties of mesterolone are not
unique, and a number of other steroids have demonstrated similar activity.
Dihydrotestosterone and Masteron (2-methyl-dihydrotestosterone), for example, have been
successfully used as therapies for gynecomastia and breast cancer due to their strong
androgenic and potentially anti-estrogenic effect. It has also been suggested that nandrolone
may even lower aromatase activity in peripheral tissues where it is more resistant to estrogen
conversion (the most active site of nandrolone aromatization seems to be the liver). The antiestrogenic
effect of all of these compounds is presumably caused by their ability to compete
with other substrates for binding to the aromatase enzyme. With the aromatase enzyme
bound to the steroid, yet being unable to alter it, an inhibiting effect is achieved as it is
temporarily blocked from interacting with other hormones.
Side Effects (Androgenic):
Mesterolone is classified as an androgenic steroid. Androgenic side effects are common with
this substance, especially with higher doses. This may include bouts of oily skin, acne, and
body/facial hair growth. Anabolic/androgenic steroids may also aggravate male pattern hair
loss. Women are also warned of the potential virilizing effects of anabolic/androgenic
steroids. These may include a deepening of the voice, menstrual irregularities, changes in skin
texture, facial hair growth, and clitoral enlargement. Additionally, the 5-alpha reductase
enzyme does not metabolize mesterolone, so its relative androgenicity is not affected by
finasteride or dutasteride.
Side Effects (Hepatotoxicity):
Mesterolone is not c17-alpha alkylated, and not known to produce hepatotoxic effects; liver
toxicity is unlikely.
Side Effects (Cardiovascular):
Anabolic/androgenic steroids can have deleterious effects on serum cholesterol. This includes
a tendency to reduce HDL (good) cholesterol values and increase LDL (bad) cholesterol
values, which may shift the HDL to LDL balance in a direction that favors greater risk of
arteriosclerosis. The relative impact of an anabolic/androgenic steroid on serum lipids is
dependant on the dose, route of administration (oral vs. injectable), type of steroid
(aromatizable or non-aromatizable), and level of resistance to hepatic metabolism.
Mesterolone is an oral non-aromatizable androgen, and expected to have a notable negative
effect on lipids. Studies administering 100 mg of mesterolone per day to hypogonadal men
for approximately 6 months demonstrated a significant increase in total cholesterol (18.8%)
and LDL cholesterol (65.2%), accompanied by a significant decrease in HDL cholesterol (-
35.7%).573
Mesterolone should not be used when cardiovascular risk factors preclude the use of other
oral steroids.
To help reduce cardiovascular strain it is advised to maintain an active cardiovascular
exercise program and minimize the intake of saturated fats, cholesterol, and simple
carbohydrates at all times during active AAS administration. Supplementing with fish oils (4
grams per day) and a natural cholesterol/antioxidant formula such as Lipid Stabil or a
product with comparable ingredients is also recommended.

Continued....

 

[StarScream66]

Side Effects (Testosterone Suppression):
Mesterolone has a very weak suppressive effect on gonadotropins and serum testosterone.
Studies show that when given in moderate doses (150 mg per day or less), significant
suppression of testosterone levels does not occur.574 In studies with higher doses (300 mg
per day and above), the agent strongly suppressed serum testosterone.575
The above side effects are not inclusive. For more detailed discussion of potential side
effects, see the Steroid Side Effects section of this book.
Administration (Men):
To treat androgen insufficiency, mesterolone is usually given in a dose of 1 tablet (25 mg)
three times per day at the initiation of therapy. The drug is later continued at a lower
maintenance dose, which usually consists of taking 1 tablet (25 mg) one to two times per
day. Similar doses are used to support male fertility, usually in conjunction with other fertility
drugs like injectable FSH. The usual dosage among male athletes is between 50 mg and 150
mg of mesterolone per day, or two to six 25 mg tablets. The drug is typically taken in cycles
of 6-12 weeks in length, which is usually a sufficient period of time to notice the benefits of
drug therapy.
Many bodybuilders favor the use of mesterolone during dieting phases or contest
preparation, when low estrogen and high androgen levels are particularly desirable. This is
especially beneficial when anabolics like Winstrol®, Anavar, or Primobolan® are being used
alone, as the androgenic content of these drugs is relatively low. Mesterolone can be
effectively used here to adjust the androgen to estrogen ratio upwards, bringing about an
increase in the hardness and density of the muscles, supporting libido and general sense of
well being, and increasing the tendency to burn body fat. It is also commonly used (at a
similar dosage) to prevent gynecomastia when other aromatizable steroids are being
administered, often in conjunction with 10-20 mg per day of Nolvadex.
Administration (Women):
Mesterolone is not approved for use in women. This agent is not recommended for women
for physique- or performance-enhancing purposes due to its strong androgenic nature and
tendency to produce virilizing side effects. Some women do favor the drug, however, and
find a single 25 mg tablet enough to efficiently shift the hormone balance in the body, greatly
impacting the look of definition to the physique. Intake is usually limited to no longer than four
or five weeks in such situations to minimize the chance of developing lasting virilizing effects.
One tablet used in conjunction with 10 or 20 mg of Nolvadex® can be even more efficient
for muscle hardening, creating an environment here the body is much more inclined to burn
off extra body fat, especially in female trouble areas like the hips and thighs. Extreme caution
should be taken with such use, however.
Availability:
Mesterolone remains widely available, the vast majority of products made by or under
license from Schering (now Bayer). In reviewing some of the more popular products and
changes on the global pharmaceutical market, we have made the following observations.
Bayer took control of Schering AG in December 2006. Following this acquisition, the
Schering Proviron products have been transitioned over to the Bayer brand and logo.
Bayer no longer markets Proviron in Egypt. The drug remains available under the Cidoviron
name, produced by the domestic firm CID (Chemical Industries Development).
Unigen markets the product Mesviron in Thailand. It contains 25 mg per tablet, and is
packaged in foil and plastic strips of 10 tablets each (5 strips per box).
Due to its limited demand, mesterolone products have traditionally not been the subjects of
high volume counterfeiting. When located on the black market, they can usually be trusted so
long as they are properly packaged from a known manufacturer.

And here is Big Cat's profile on it and steroid.com's profile on it.

Bodybuilding.com - Big Cat - In Depth Proviron Profile!

Mesterolone is an orally active, 1-methylated DHT. Like Masteron, but then actually delivered in an oral fashion. DHT is the conversion product of testosterone at the 5-alpha-reductase enzyme, the result being a hormone that is 3 to 4 times as androgenic.

web.archive.org

Proviron - steroid.com

Proviron is the brand name for the steroid Mesterolone and is used by both men and women. Proviron is not capable of forming estrogen.

www.steroid.com

 

[Codybenz]

I’m not reading all that ****, lol. But one of your articles from steroids.com specifically states it is not 17aa. Lol I repeat it is not 17aa. FACT

and I’m sure Bayer would risk millions and lie about the profile and side effects of a drug.

I’m done. And I will continue to enjoy the close to side effect free benefits on proviron

 

[Renew1]

Proviron is a Quality Steroid with a Lot of benefits.
... And as far as Steroids go, it is relatively safe.

 

[CroLifter]

Proviron is methyl 1 alpha dht guys lol, its not c 17 aa.

masteron is methyl 2 alpha dht. And as far as i can remember, sth tells me, i am sure that i have read it somewhere, that because of the 2 alpha position masteron carries even stronger anti estrogenic effect than proviron.

Also proviron oral bioavailability is said to be 3%. So take that into consideration.

when i used to take it i would always take it sublingually,

 

[Codybenz]

Proviron is methyl 1 alpha dht guys lol, its not c 17 aa.

masteron is methyl 2 alpha dht. And as far as i can remember, sth tells me, i am sure that i have read it somewhere, that because of the 2 alpha position masteron carries even stronger anti estrogenic effect than proviron.

Also proviron oral bioavailability is said to be 3%. So take that into consideration.

when i used to take it i would always take it sublingually,

That is correct.

Ive never tried it sublingual. Interesting

 

[CroLifter]

That is correct.

Ive never tried it sublingual. Interesting

It's probably placebo but I feel more amped up and aggressive in a good way for like 6 hours after dosing

I start to feel it roughly an hour later

Still I would prefer master on base for aggression

I can't tolerate high mast in ester form due to horrible anxiety as I am amped up constantly

But base would be perfect for workout or fight


My ideal cycle would be low androgen sth like low test moderate npp with tren/mast base mix thrown in on workout days and when I want to feel insane

And few iu if gh daily

But I don't want to be amped up constantly as that leads to anxiety for me

 

[Renew1]

Proviron is methyl 1 alpha dht guys lol, its not c 17 aa.

masteron is methyl 2 alpha dht. And as far as i can remember, sth tells me, i am sure that i have read it somewhere, that because of the 2 alpha position masteron carries even stronger anti estrogenic effect than proviron.

Also proviron oral bioavailability is said to be 3%. So take that into consideration.

when i used to take it i would always take it sublingually,

I take it Transdermally.

 

[StarScream66]

Did you guys want me to look at all the nandrolone studies posted and go through and post my opinion so we can discuss them further or are we tired and burnt out of this and no one would be interested in this?