hjunior58
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Should steroid cycles be tapered off like narcotics or is the hormone crash inevitable?
???? whats the reasoning behind this?hehe tapering off narcotics hey? this is just my oppinion and don't have much to back it up with but i believe their is advantages to tapering off designer steroids cycles mainly if they are highly suppressive or you have run an extended cycle... i believe it helps stop a complete crash and helps ease into pct.
ok well i will give and an example of my reasoning based on an oral cycle with an 8-12 hr half life. So normally you would take be taking 2-3 caps a day for example. The idea is you keep blood levels stable for best gains but at the same time your basically being supressed 24/7... if you taper down to 1 cap and take it in the morning you still have high androgen levels while your awake so your likely not going to feel the negative effects of low test and by the time you go to sleep they will drop which allows the message to produce natural test. keeping in mind you produce most of your natural test at night anyway. well i did the taper down once with a 5 week super/phera/fini stack.. recovery was a dream and i'm pretty sure i was shutdown like a mofo. i also took a couple of otc ai's before bed and resumed a fairly standard nolva+ai pct.???? whats the reasoning behind this?
Tease you balls back into production?
its not going to work or "ease" you into PCT. The drop is inevitable and all your really doing is giving your body less androgens then it was just using to have and its still just as suppressed. Drop all use at once and start an immediate reproduction protocol otherwise your just wasting product with subpar doses that wont do anything for helping you maintain your gains. Achieving homeostasis ASAP will help you keep those gains.
we also know that a lot of the side effects get more pronounced as dosages get higher... obviously higher doses will create faster and more severe supression or even complete shutdown. I'm pretty sure everyone will agree that they would rather be supressed than shutdown completely...i'm not saying everyone should be tapering all the time but i definitely think it would be usefull in longer or heavier cycles where complete shutdown is a possibilityTapering was down back in the day because guys mistakenly thought it would help them lessen the crash. We now know that suppression can occur even at the lowest of mgs...
holy
i prefere to think for myself mate, never got into the whole group thinking mentality... oh thats right the world is flat right? :nutkick:Nobody who knows what they are doing on this board does tapers down, so why bother. The only reason people taper up doses is to get an idea of the side effects they can expect or because they are following instructions from a product label.
I totall understand where you're coming from, but the flaw lies in how I think you recover from suppression/shutdown....You indicate that recovery would start at night, after the oral with the short half life has cleared your system...if that were true, there would be no need for PCT at all....suppression takes much longer to return to normal than a couple of hours. Sometimes it can take months...I dont think tapering is a bad thing, I just think it isnt efficient at restarting your testes.ok well i will give and an example of my reasoning based on an oral cycle with an 8-12 hr half life. So normally you would take be taking 2-3 caps a day for example. The idea is you keep blood levels stable for best gains but at the same time your basically being supressed 24/7... if you taper down to 1 cap and take it in the morning you still have high androgen levels while your awake so your likely not going to feel the negative effects of low test and by the time you go to sleep they will drop which allows the message to produce natural test. keeping in mind you produce most of your natural test at night anyway. well i did the taper down once with a 5 week super/phera/fini stack.. recovery was a dream and i'm pretty sure i was shutdown like a mofo. i also took a couple of otc ai's before bed and resumed a fairly standard nolva+ai pct.
I totall understand where you're coming from, but the flaw lies in how I think you recover from suppression/shutdown....You indicate that recovery would start at night, after the oral with the short half life has cleared your system...if that were true, there would be no need for PCT at all....suppression takes much longer to return to normal than a couple of hours. Sometimes it can take months...I dont think tapering is a bad thing, I just think it isnt efficient at restarting your testes.
holy
Dr.D and poopypants back. Guys from the days when I read and not post. Days I was seen but not heardAHHHHH!!!!! nice to see ya round D!!
great to have a voice with some weight behind it....
But is it really possible to START any type of production while still introducing an exogenous source??? I can understand the drop off the previous androgen is lessend but how does this really effect the time it takes to jumpstart natty production if your still supressing yourself???
I realize there are other variables besides the actual chemical itself. I also realize that there may very well be valid uses for a taper, but as it pertains to steroids, injectibles in particular, this theory does not hold up.It's not about avoiding crash, it's about limiting crash by staging a smoother recovery. You have inducible enzymes involved, proteins and globins changing ratios, electrolyte balance, and your thinking very black and white just saying it won't prevent crash.
Right, Holy, I agree with your points. After about 6wks some might even find it beneficial to increase doses a little, but lowering them will often cost you effectiveness. Once you're severely shutdown anyway, what's the point? I agree.... Lets say I take 500mgs (or a gram, it really doesnt matter) of testosterone cypionate for 12 weeks. ...
Yes Sir, this is applicable to many things in life. With a narcotics addict like your friend, it might have precipitate an acute state of shock physiologically if they hadn't tapered in rehab. Same with things that have deep glandular effects. Not just the testicles, the rest of the endocrine system as well. For example, never cold turkey T3 or T4, the crash can put you in the hospital. Give your body a chance to adapt into change. Did you know it's more toxic to quit smoking cold turkey that it is to keep smoking and tapering off over a few months?! It sounds crazy but that's no bull. Enzymes play a big role in this process, and usually take at least a few weeks to shift gears. Your body seeks homeostasis and must equilibrate to any significant changes....And by the way the narcotic refrence came from my experience with friends that went into rehab for drugs we wont mention. Tapering has been used as a method to bring addicts off of harsh narcotics that if quit altogether would cause severe reactions even death. ...
Well good to see you back. Is this a temporary comeback or permanent?Right, Holy, I agree with your points. After about 6wks some might even find it beneficial to increase doses a little, but lowering them will often cost you effectiveness. Once you're severely shutdown anyway, what's the point? I agree.
When I say taper (taper down specifically) I mean over 2-3wks, and with parenteral test cyp that happens naturally after the last administration. As far as tapering up with esters, one certainly doesn't need to unless they're very gyno prone or something, and it can actually be better to front the dose once all is considered.
With orals, tapering can be truly useful in helping to deemphasize inevitable shutdown and shortening recovery latency. Avoiding crash in other words. Except with orals, it's generally not beneficial to taper. Sorry if I wasn't clear.
Good to be back! Permanent return, but I'm working on a lot of stuff so might not be back full force until I get some of these products out.Well good to see you back. Is this a temporary comeback or permanent?
As for tapering orals, wouldnt a similar concept apply. Take SD as an example. I run it 20/20/20. By then you would imagine I would be reasonably shutdown. Now come the 4th week I taper down e.g 20-20-10-10-10-10EOD-10EOD-PCT. Now by tapering down my HPTA will not restore itself, if anything would it not continue to get worse? I guess my question is why/how does it differ for orals?
First and foremost, thanks for debating like an adult....I hate to say it, but its not to often on an internet forum you can have a constructive chat....With orals, you won't continue to encourage suppression since you're necessarily doing a lower dose once the taper starts, but on the same token you won't be promoting recovery either.
In my experience, this board is better than many. The fellas here are mostly sincere and ready to share knowledge without attitude.First and foremost, thanks for debating like an adult....I hate to say it, but its not to often on an internet forum you can have a constructive chat....
I have been thinking of using Toremifene as my SERM after a 4 week cycle of 1-Andro, 4-AD and DecaVol (Obviously haven't started it quite yet. During and after that cycle, i will be taking Cycle Support. What would be good dosages for the Tore. coming off a cycle like this? I will also be taking Arom-x during PCT... then load the SERM and start an inverse ramp with an appropriate AI.
A normal dosing routine should be used... and is widely avilable across the boards sir... search is your friend.I have been thinking of using Toremifene as my SERM after a 4 week cycle of 1-Andro, 4-AD and DecaVol (Obviously haven't started it quite yet. During and after that cycle, i will be taking Cycle Support. What would be good dosages for the Tore. coming off a cycle like this? I will also be taking Arom-x during PCT
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