Tapering down AAS/PH/DS to retain gains

[chocolatemilk]

I know tapering down steroids is nothing new and probably has been implemented many times. I have taking an interest in the idea more and more lately.

I have seen studies which say HPTA shutdown and depression of LH and FSH are dose-dependent with steroids and I am pretty sure this is well accepted. This means theoretically one could control shutdown with controlling their dose of steroids.

In my mind this seems like the way to go with steroids...

Taper them down so shut down gets tapered down as well. Since it is a dose-dependent relationship, logically, adding more steroids, adds more shutdown, bringing down the steroid slowly, brings down shut down with it.

It sounds better than run a high dosed cycle known to cause significant shutdown for sure, and then simply stop using that dose and leave your body in a fragile state of shut down with no hormones to sustain muscles and poof (lose your gains).

With using a strong steroid like SD I think would work best because it's strong and even at low doses would be very useful maybe not in creating gains but definitely sustaining gains, something like:

Week 1: 30 mg SD
Week 2: 20 mg SD
Week 3: 20 mg SD
Week 4: 10 mg SD
Week 5: 10 mg SD
Week 6: 7 mg SD
Week 7: 7 mg SD
Week 8: 5 mg SD
Week 9: 5 mg SD
Week 10: 2.5 mg SD
Maybe keep tapering to 12 weeks?

Just throwing an idea for how a cycle would work with this...

The body could take days or weeks to reach equilibrium between dose vs shut down so I would think running a dose for 2 weeks would be enough to allow the body to reach equilibrium in amount of shut down to that specific amount of steroid.

I'm not understanding why someone wants to come off a high dose of a steroid at maximum amount of shut down when tapering the steroid could bring down shutdown since steroids have a dose-dependent relationship to HPTA shutdown.

Graphically a dose dependent shutdown looks like this:

Cheesy I know but f*** off lol

As the dose goes down, shutdown goes down. As the dose goes up, shutdown goes up. I know in the real world the line on the graph probably isn't that straight for the relationship, but I'm sure it should be pretty close.

Why do we not bring the level of shut down to a lower level before coming off the steroids? Why do we just come off cold turkey at a time when shut down is high if lowering the dose helps lower shut down?

This is all about sustaining gains... let your nuts grow back slowly and still have steroids aiding in muscle retention so by the time you come off the steroids shut down will be very minimal.

I have never tried... just thinking about it.

What do you guys think?

 

[MikeGfilms]

hell this is what arnold and all the other bodybuilders did back in the day...and it seemed to work pretty damn good for them. Unfortunately, the only way to tell would be to have blood tests done before, during, after, etc. Plus i dont think its suitable for something like SD, i remember a guy saying he was completely shut down 2 weeks into a 5mg cycle (he had bloodwork taken).

 

[EasyEJL]

It makes sense with longer ester items more I think. That way you are letting the levels come down over time with no empty "anabolicless" spots. With orals with short half lifes, unless you are capping up superdrol powder at .5mg/cap you can't really keep some level of activity going all day.

So using winstrol or dbol with having 5mg tablets, you might have a shot at it, as too the "standard" dose is more like 50mg.

Also though, i'm not entirely sure about only being at the full dose for the first week. I'd lean to think it would be more a case of (using winny or dbol)
week 1-6 50mg
week 7 30mg
week 8 15mg
week 9 7.5mg (5mg tabs broke in half 4x a day)
week 10 start pct

 

[imjuschillin]

Hey man, awesome thread. I too have also always wondered it. Anytime I mentioned it or even hinted at it though the idea seems to get shot down pretty fast.

See. Seems to me with anything as complex and important as our bodies, introducing and releasing these substances from our bodies slowly would be the way to go. For example with SD, I always thought like 5, 10, 15, 20, 15, 10, 5 might be a good way to go (example, not exact) I even wonder if the serms would be best used like that?!

I think though, there must be something that Im still not getting that makes other (maybe more knowlegable) people not like, or use the idea. Honestly, I always though the 10, 20, 20, 20 then serm 50, 50, 50, 50 sounded a bit obtuse. A bit like, harsh, in the system. In hard, then out in the blink of an eye too, then the same with serm dosing. But, its repeated here so much, there must be something to it...???

Hope this gets some good debate going though.

Cheers.

 

[chocolatemilk]

hell this is what arnold and all the other bodybuilders did back in the day...and it seemed to work pretty damn good for them. Unfortunately, the only way to tell would be to have blood tests done before, during, after, etc. Plus i dont think its suitable for something like SD, i remember a guy saying he was completely shut down 2 weeks into a 5mg cycle (he had bloodwork taken).

True... If that is true, going lower on SD and splitting the powder out of the cap and weighing it to lower and lower doses would get around SD being so damn strong even at 5 mg.

It makes sense with longer ester items more I think. That way you are letting the levels come down over time with no empty "anabolicless" spots. With orals with short half lifes, unless you are capping up superdrol powder at .5mg/cap you can't really keep some level of activity going all day.

So using winstrol or dbol with having 5mg tablets, you might have a shot at it, as too the "standard" dose is more like 50mg.

Also though, i'm not entirely sure about only being at the full dose for the first week. I'd lean to think it would be more a case of (using winny or dbol)
week 1-6 50mg
week 7 30mg
week 8 15mg
week 9 7.5mg (5mg tabs broke in half 4x a day)
week 10 start pct

Exactly my friend. I was thinking of uncapping the powder, weighing it, capping low doses daily for it to work with SD.

I see your point though it would work damn good with longer esters.

I'm just thinking that lowering the dose every week might not give the body enough time to adjust the amount of shut down that's why I was thinking 2 weeks at each dose with a long taper over a short taper. A short 3 week taper might not be enough time for the body to adjust to that specific dose for shut down you know what I mean Easy?

 

[kkcinc]

Interesting. Theoretically would you start to ramp up the SERM as you taper the steroid or wait till you were done?

 

[MikeGfilms]

I got this off another site, this is supposed to be what arnolds cycles looked like


Weeks Primobolan Enanthate (Injectable) (Dbol) Deca Durabolin
Week 1 600mg / week 60mg / day
Week 2 600mg / week 60mg / day
Week 3 600mg / week 60mg / day
Week 4 600mg / week 60mg / day
Week 5 600mg / week 60mg / day
Week 6 800mg / week 80mg / day
Week 7 800mg / week 80mg / day
Week 8 800mg / week 80mg / day
Week 9 800mg / week 80mg / day
Week 10 800mg / week 80mg / day
Week 11 1000mg / week 100mg / day
Week 12 1000mg / week 100mg / day
Week 13 1000mg / week 100mg / day
Week 14 1000mg / week 100mg / day
Week 15 800mg / week 80mg / day
Week 16 800mg / week 80mg / day
Week 17 800mg / week 80mg / day
Week 18 600mg / week 60mg / day
Week 19 600mg / week 60mg / day
Week 20 600mg / week 60mg / day
BRIDGE
Week 21 30mg / day 200mg / week
Week 22 30mg / day 200mg / week
Week 23 30mg / day 200mg / week
Week 24 30mg / day 200mg / week
Week 25 30mg / day 200mg / week
Week 26 30mg / day 200mg / week
START CYCLE (1-20) AGAIN

 

[EasyEJL]

True... If that is true, going lower on SD and splitting the powder out of the cap and weighing it to lower and lower doses would get around SD being so damn strong even at 5 mg.



Exactly my friend. I was thinking of uncapping the powder, weighing it, capping low doses daily for it to work with SD.

I see your point though it would work damn good with longer esters.

I'm just thinking that lowering the dose every week might not give the body enough time to adjust the amount of shut down that's why I was thinking 2 weeks at each dose with a long taper over a short taper. A short 3 week taper might not be enough time for the body to adjust to that specific dose for shut down you know what I mean Easy?

Well, the problematic part you have to look it is how high of a dose is still worth any shutdown at all. But now looking at it, I see what you were thinking. The idea of not getting shutdown at all (or barely) by the contual lowering of the dose. In the end I'm not sure that would work as so long as the dose signals to the body that there is an excessive amount of androgens you would just continue getting more and more shut down even with the lowering dose. Until of course you reached a level below normal androgen levels, where testosterone production would start to kick in.

Thats why at least for spans of time, its possible to lighly supplement testosterone and see minimal to no shutdown. Someone whos total testosterone levels is in the 300s can sometimes get away with using a small amount of the gels and get up into the upper 400s and not experience shutdown from the gel (as the total amount in gel + natural production still isn't so high as to signal the over androgen limit).

 

[ken22]

when would you start PCT. At the end of the last week or somewhere in the middle.
I would think starting Pct at the begining of the decrease weeks and slowly increasing it
at the same rate you decrease the SD would be the way to go. Then at the last dose of SD you would
be at your max dose of Pct and continue it from there.
Does that make sense,

 

[chocolatemilk]

Well, the problematic part you have to look it is how high of a dose is still worth any shutdown at all. But now looking at it, I see what you were thinking. The idea of not getting shutdown at all (or barely) by the contual lowering of the dose. In the end I'm not sure that would work as so long as the dose signals to the body that there is an excessive amount of androgens you would just continue getting more and more shut down even with the lowering dose. Until of course you reached a level below normal androgen levels, where testosterone production would start to kick in.

But that doesn't follow with the fact that shut down is dose dependent. I know it is complicated and not as simple but at the foundation of it all, lower your dose = lower in shut down. What you are saying is lower your dose = higher shut down. Who knows, you would need a ton of info about a compounds capability for shut down to do it properly but I think a rough guideline or estimate might work on the dosages. Interesting on the androgel!

Interesting. Theoretically would you start to ramp up the SERM as you taper the steroid or wait till you were done?

Good point!

I got this off another site, this is supposed to be what arnolds cycles looked like

Wow lol

 

[chocolatemilk]

when would you start PCT. At the end of the last week or somewhere in the middle.
I would think starting Pct at the begining of the decrease weeks and slowly increasing it
at the same rate you decrease the SD would be the way to go. Then at the last dose of SD you would
be at your max dose of Pct and continue it from there.
Does that make sense,

When you would start the SERM would depend on the compound. I think for SD once you reach 5 or 2.5 mg start the SERM.

But yea, Titrating Steroids and SERM...

Good point!

 

[EasyEJL]

But that doesn't follow with the fact that shut down is dose dependent. I know it is complicated and not as simple but at the foundation of it all, lower your dose = lower in shut down. What you are saying is lower your dose = higher shut down. Who knows, you would need a ton of info about a compounds capability for shut down to do it properly but I think a rough guideline or estimate might work on the dosages. Interesting on the androgel!

From what I gathered its not only dose but also time. So after long enough at 5mg of superdrol you'd be as shut down as a higher dose for less time.

 

[wastedwhiteboy2]

I usually do this with cycles anyway. My cycles would look more like this:
1 30 SD
2 30 SD
3 30 SD
4 20 SD 20mg nolva
5 10 SD 40mg nolva
6 40mg nolva, low dose fina
7 20mg nolva, low dose fina
8 10 mg nolva

I might throw in a low dose AI towards the end of pct.
Blocking the estrogen receptors and stopping some DHT conversion would get you started in the recovery process. Dont plan on having sex week 6

 

[imjuschillin]

Hmmm...

It looks like a few peeps still think starting high then tappering down is the way to go (as opposed to tappering up and then down.)

From all the reading I've done on this and some comments here, it seems to me at least part of the issue might be this - That once you are shut down, until PCT kicks in (something to get you headed back to normal) that you will stay shut down. So, it seems to me that say you are at 20 of SD then to 15, then 10, then 5, the issue is that your body is still 'shut down' from the 20, and until PCT factors take effect, it doesnt matter if we ramp down...

Hmmm..

What u peeps think? Cuz other than what I just described here, I can't think of a reason why tappering down wouldnt be the best way to run any cycle.

 

[chocolatemilk]

From what I gathered its not only dose but also time. So after long enough at 5mg of superdrol you'd be as shut down as a higher dose for less time.

I've seen studies which show men taking in different amounts of Test E for six months such as 25, 50, 100, 300 mg.

LH in the 100 and 300 mg group decreased by 80-90% compared to controls.

LH in the 50 mg group decreased by 50% compared to controls.

Wouldn't you want to lower your Test E dose to 50 mg and enter into PCT with 50% shut down compared to entering PCT with 90% shut down?

With SD as stated above, 5 mg may still have potential for shut down... who knows the exact percent... but I can guarantee you it's less than 30 mg. And whether the body is increasing gonadotrophins as SD is decreasing, I believe so based on the dose-dependent relationship. One would need 3-4 blood tests to prove this... Almost $200... DAMN!

 

[chocolatemilk]

So, it seems to me that say you are at 20 of SD then to 15, then 10, then 5, the issue is that your body is still 'shut down' from the 20
.

That goes against a dose-dependent relationship.

 

[chocolatemilk]

But I don't know if once you start taking steroids at full dose that this relationship still exists and you can play off of it.

I mean you can show that taking "X" amount of steroid causes "X" amount of suppression... A static dose of steroids causes a certain amount of suppression and that's proven... but I can't find much information about "changing doses" of steroids and how it effects suppression.

 

[EasyEJL]

I've seen studies which show men taking in different amounts of Test E for six months such as 25, 50, 100, 300 mg.

LH in the 100 and 300 mg group decreased by 80-90% compared to controls.

LH in the 50 mg group decreased by 50% compared to controls.

Wouldn't you want to lower your Test E dose to 50 mg and enter into PCT with 50% shut down compared to entering PCT with 90% shut down?

Well, the logistical pieces missing there are

* the 25 + 50mg doses are less than normal production - so the reason it isn't that suppressive is that it doesn't totally replace natural testosterone. I'd like to see what their total testosterone levels were like pre-study/mid study/post study in this group particularly

* the study shows that a dose lower than replacement doesn't add to suppression, but it also doesn't show that there would be any recovery at all switching from the 300 dose at 12 weeks to the 50mg dose, just that a 50mg dose the whole time doesn't supress any further than that. Not that there is no chance of recovery, but studies done that way don't show there would be, or how long it would take for recovery to start.

* with the 100mg dose being approx the same as the 300, any dose of an androgen that is replacement levels or more would suppress you to that 80-90% given enough time.

so it might work, but part of it working is figuring out what dose of an oral is less than "androgen replacement" to your body, and also we still don't know for sure if the body will really start recovery then, or how long it will take for recovery to be significant.

 

[RickRock13]

This is a very interesting topic, and would like to hear more from what others say. It certainly brings up a nice realm of possibilities if this is something that could minimize shutdown as well as sides

Great thread CM!!

 

[AwfullyAmazin]

It makes sense with longer ester items more I think. That way you are letting the levels come down over time with no empty "anabolicless" spots. With orals with short half lifes, unless you are capping up superdrol powder at .5mg/cap you can't really keep some level of activity going all day.

So using winstrol or dbol with having 5mg tablets, you might have a shot at it, as too the "standard" dose is more like 50mg.

Also though, i'm not entirely sure about only being at the full dose for the first week. I'd lean to think it would be more a case of (using winny or dbol)
week 1-6 50mg
week 7 30mg
week 8 15mg
week 9 7.5mg (5mg tabs broke in half 4x a day)
week 10 start pct

To go on with what you're saying, I been thinkin of running a 4 week M-Drol/H-Drol cycle so I'm always anabolic.

M-Drol @ 20mg for 4 weeks, 10mg upon waking, 10mg 6hrs later
H-Drol @ 25-50mg for 4 weeks, 25-50mg 4 hours after 2nd M-Drol cap

Any comments as far as all that goes?

 

[chocolatemilk]

Well, the logistical pieces missing there are

* the 25 + 50mg doses are less than normal production - so the reason it isn't that suppressive is that it doesn't totally replace natural testosterone. I'd like to see what their total testosterone levels were like pre-study/mid study/post study in this group particularly

* the study shows that a dose lower than replacement doesn't add to suppression, but it also doesn't show that there would be any recovery at all switching from the 300 dose at 12 weeks to the 50mg dose, just that a 50mg dose the whole time doesn't supress any further than that. Not that there is no chance of recovery, but studies done that way don't show there would be, or how long it would take for recovery to start.

* with the 100mg dose being approx the same as the 300, any dose of an androgen that is replacement levels or more would suppress you to that 80-90% given enough time.

so it might work, but part of it working is figuring out what dose of an oral is less than "androgen replacement" to your body, and also we still don't know for sure if the body will really start recovery then, or how long it will take for recovery to be significant.

True true.

My last post reflected these same concerns. The dose-dependent relationship exists at the beginning so you can shoot 50mg of TE and expect 50% shut down but when you're on 300 mg of TE and drop it to 50 mg this study never addressed how the body would react.

But E, I think the body will start to recover if you drop 300 mg of TE to 50 mg TE. If you think otherwise it goes against the negative feedback loop does it not? To say that recovery only commences once steroid use is stopped doesn't sound right. But once steroid levels reach a level the body sees as "too little" it will begin the process of reaching homeostasis.

Hell we still have biological T in our system when we start PCT... just very little of it. What's the difference between this natural low T state which causes homeostasis commencement compared to the artificial low T state (tapering) which is harder for you to believe would cause homeostasis commencement?

 

[EasyEJL]

True true.

My last post reflected these same concerns. The dose-dependent relationship exists at the beginning so you can shoot 50mg of TE and expect 50% shut down but when you're on 300 mg of TE and drop it to 50 mg this study never addressed how the body would react.

But E, I think the body will start to recover if you drop 300 mg of TE to 50 mg TE. If you think otherwise it goes against the negative feedback loop does it not? To say that recovery only commences once steroid use is stopped doesn't sound right. But once steroid levels reach a level the body sees as "too little" it will begin the process of reaching homeostasis.

Hell we still have biological T in our system when we start PCT... just very little of it. What's the difference between this natural low T state which causes homeostasis commencement compared to the artificial low T state (tapering) which is harder for you to believe would cause homeostasis commencement?

Yeah, I think you would start to recover, but how much in how much time? If you are recovering 5% a week that way, its not worthwhile. Thats why its a pity there wasn't any studies done before testosterone was demonized

 

[GodofWine]

I've often thought of trying the following approach with SD or something in its general realm...

Week 1 - 30mg
Week 2 - 20mg
Week 3 - 10mg (maybe 20?)
Week 4 - Pulse 20mg MWF
Week 5 - Pulse 10mg MWF (Start PCT)
Week 6 - Pulse 10mg MF

I never finalized the thought in my head, but I'd think that if you can at least begin to restore HPTA function in week 6-7 to some degree, even small, its will go a long way to helping you 1)recover 2) maintain

Just a thought.... :friday:

 

[MikeGfilms]

My thoughts on this is that it seems like it will work, but onlt too a certian degree. I think the regular cycle, then pct is the better way to go. As your talking an extra month or more of being on more steroids, to what? hopefully see a little bit of testosterone start to come back?

I think its not worth the time/health risks imo.

 

[chocolatemilk]

Yeah, I think you would start to recover, but how much in how much time? If you are recovering 5% a week that way, its not worthwhile. Thats why its a pity there wasn't any studies done before testosterone was demonized

I will see if I can dig up anything...

My thoughts on this is that it seems like it will work, but onlt too a certian degree. I think the regular cycle, then pct is the better way to go. As your talking an extra month or more of being on more steroids, to what? hopefully see a little bit of testosterone start to come back?

I think its not worth the time/health risks imo.

That extra month is what the point is... to retain gains. I don't think you are risking much on 5 or 2.5 or even lower mg of SD. Maybe increased shutdown, maybe even recovery... who knows. I don't think there is enough information at hand to say one way is better than the other.

The literature on steroids is sometimes absolutely retarded. I read a study done in 2005 which stated that "stacking" steroids has never been documented to increase muscle size or strength as opposed to a one compound cycle. I see it done on here all the time. That's how far behind literature is....

We need a guinea pig to get 4 blood tests or so on a tapering cycle...

 

[OnTheRoadTo]

Yea, don't do this. Unless it's more about liver toxicity concerns, IMO.

First of all, the hypothalamus/pituitary will lower secretion of LH in the presence of estrogen pretty fast - your total test/LH will be very low by the end of week 2. You then will keep having some level of LH suppression until very low doses - except due to LH insensitivity at the testicles, your recovery will actually be harder. It's possible that a SERM + low dose steroid could begin recovery (SERMs block hormonal action directly at the hypothalamus and pituitary)

http://www.ergo-log.com/tamoxandriol.html

I would be more likely to say tapering with a pulsing protocol would be better, because the natural patterns of hormone secretion are pulsatile. I wish I knew what my blood levels of SD were in real time over the course of my cycle - supposedly it's a short half life, but others say you need to build up a level)

Honestly, what you want is Ostarine to retain gains - the lack of interaction with the HPTA is crucial. No one will ever keep 100% of SD gains - so much water/glycogen is loaded up when you're on, it is just impossible to keep all of that. People get confused as to how much muscle they've built. That, and hcg (thanks buddy, what a great call!) to minimize the suppression of side effects and retain some LH sensitivity in the testicles.

 

[hungryH]

I will see if I can dig up anything...



That extra month is what the point is... to retain gains. I don't think you are risking much on 5 or 2.5 or even lower mg of SD. Maybe increased shutdown, maybe even recovery... who knows. I don't think there is enough information at hand to say one way is better than the other.

The literature on steroids is sometimes absolutely retarded. I read a study done in 2005 which stated that "stacking" steroids has never been documented to increase muscle size or strength as opposed to a one compound cycle. I see it done on here all the time. That's how far behind literature is....

We need a guinea pig to get 4 blood tests or so on a tapering cycle...

where I live this is still common protocol after cycles

i dont do it though, just because I'd rather just get on pct so I can start my next cycle after my time off

 

[chocolatemilk]

Yea, don't do this. Unless it's more about liver toxicity concerns, IMO.

First of all, the hypothalamus/pituitary will lower secretion of LH in the presence of estrogen pretty fast - your total test/LH will be very low by the end of week 2. You then will keep having some level of LH suppression until very low doses - except due to LH insensitivity at the testicles, your recovery will actually be harder. It's possible that a SERM + low dose steroid could begin recovery (SERMs block hormonal action directly at the hypothalamus and pituitary)

http://www.ergo-log.com/tamoxandriol.html

I would be more likely to say tapering with a pulsing protocol would be better, because the natural patterns of hormone secretion are pulsatile. I wish I knew what my blood levels of SD were in real time over the course of my cycle - supposedly it's a short half life, but others say you need to build up a level)

Honestly, what you want is Ostarine to retain gains - the lack of interaction with the HPTA is crucial. No one will ever keep 100% of SD gains - so much water/glycogen is loaded up when you're on, it is just impossible to keep all of that. People get confused as to how much muscle they've built. That, and hcg (thanks buddy, what a great call!) to minimize the suppression of side effects and retain some LH sensitivity in the testicles.

Yea I suppose with Ostarine and hCG you one could really do well on a cycle to keep the gains. Reps for lovin the hCG

 

[chocolatemilk]

where I live this is still common protocol after cycles

i dont do it though, just because I'd rather just get on pct so I can start my next cycle after my time off

Yea this method hasn't died off and people still use it... I found the official name of it just now. Read my post below.

 

[chocolatemilk]

Well I found the old method lol... it's official name is "pyramiding" and it's not a taper. I think someone already hinted at it. You slowly increase steroid dose till you reach the peak then slowly decrease the steroid dose. It is mentioned in literature as a way steroids are used along with the standard "cycle" as we normally use today.

Can't find anything about pyramiding efficacy. People used it and still use it today as a gradual entry into the steroid cycle and gradual exit out.

 

[morry]

Yea, don't do this. Unless it's more about liver toxicity concerns, IMO.

First of all, the hypothalamus/pituitary will lower secretion of LH in the presence of estrogen pretty fast - your total test/LH will be very low by the end of week 2. You then will keep having some level of LH suppression until very low doses - except due to LH insensitivity at the testicles, your recovery will actually be harder. It's possible that a SERM + low dose steroid could begin recovery (SERMs block hormonal action directly at the hypothalamus and pituitary)

http://www.ergo-log.com/tamoxandriol.html

I would be more likely to say tapering with a pulsing protocol would be better, because the natural patterns of hormone secretion are pulsatile. I wish I knew what my blood levels of SD were in real time over the course of my cycle - supposedly it's a short half life, but others say you need to build up a level)

Honestly, what you want is Ostarine to retain gains - the lack of interaction with the HPTA is crucial. No one will ever keep 100% of SD gains - so much water/glycogen is loaded up when you're on, it is just impossible to keep all of that. People get confused as to how much muscle they've built. That, and hcg (thanks buddy, what a great call!) to minimize the suppression of side effects and retain some LH sensitivity in the testicles.

Interesting thread.

I'm not qualified enough to really give a good opinion, but I do agree with what is said above.

Recovery is about getting your HPTA fully functional. With SARMS available now and the OSTA being relatively mild but is perfect for maintaining mass and muscles, while HPTA normalizes. HCG thorughout the cycle should keep ya up and running too so when you come off, your body adjust back much faster.

I don't think it is possible to keep all your gains on anything. You aren't that aggressive when off cycle. Atrophy is going to happen. But I see what you're saying. Minimize it, but I'm not sure about tapering.

I agree with whoever said a "live" reading of bloods throughout would solve this mystery. Now who wants to try this protocol and walk around having thier blood constantly sampled?

 

[chocolatemilk]

Interesting thread.

I'm not qualified enough to really give a good opinion, but I do agree with what is said above.

Recovery is about getting your HPTA fully functional. With SARMS available now and the OSTA being relatively mild but is perfect for maintaining mass and muscles, while HPTA normalizes. HCG thorughout the cycle should keep ya up and running too so when you come off, your body adjust back much faster.

I don't think it is possible to keep all your gains on anything. You aren't that aggressive when off cycle. Atrophy is going to happen. But I see what you're saying. Minimize it, but I'm not sure about tapering.

I agree with whoever said a "live" reading of bloods throughout would solve this mystery. Now who wants to try this protocol and walk around having thier blood constantly sampled?

One could still use hCG, OSTA, and SERMs while pyramiding. And when you even the playing field like that... which one becomes more effective? Standard cycle or pyramiding?

I don't think anyone can really prove it without bloods done as there is not much studies on how each method affects the body. But based on a physiology perspective on how the body works it would seem that gradually increasing and decreasing steroid dose allows your body more of a gradual process in muscle building and gradual recovery and come down.

Stacking hasn't even been proven to be effective, yet we all know it is.

Pyramiding hasn't been proven to be effective, nor has it been proven to not be effective.

 

[UnrealMachine]

CM brosef I like this thread because it has people thinking outside the box and that's one of the things that first attracted me to AM back in the day is that new ways of thinking conceptually about oral steroid cycling was always welcomed.

The problem is everything we know about these cycles is based off anecdotal evidence so we need some guinea pigs to test this out, as we could debate the theory endlessly.

The way I see it though is I would prefer a pyramid rather than starting SD at 30 and ramping down. I don't like starting at 30 personally. I would rather go like:
10/20/20/30/10/5
and start PCT on week 6.

This is reminiscent of the concept of the Dbol bridge and SD does have an appropriately short halflife but it's much more suppressive than Dbol mg/mg so I wouldn't want to start attempting HPTA recovery until 5mg of SD were achieved on week 6.

Also i wouldn't run the taper out to week 8-10 or anything because it's too much time on a fast acting oral, you will get desensitized to it eventually esp. since you are dosing lower and lower, 30mg*3 weeks will f--k up your cholesterol, and the next 6 weeks will maintained the fked up HDL/LDL partition.

10mg epi bridge into pct anyone? lol. Run SD heavy, bridge into heavy Epi, taper down and start PCT on a 10mg epi bridge. Hmm it makes you wonder.

 

[gymrat827]

I taper down on every cycle but I do it in 1-2 wks time

 

[chocolatemilk]

CM brosef I like this thread because it has people thinking outside the box and that's one of the things that first attracted me to AM back in the day is that new ways of thinking conceptually about oral steroid cycling was always welcomed.

The problem is everything we know about these cycles is based off anecdotal evidence so we need some guinea pigs to test this out, as we could debate the theory endlessly.

The way I see it though is I would prefer a pyramid rather than starting SD at 30 and ramping down. I don't like starting at 30 personally. I would rather go like:
10/20/20/30/10/5
and start PCT on week 6.

This is reminiscent of the concept of the Dbol bridge and SD does have an appropriately short halflife but it's much more suppressive than Dbol mg/mg so I wouldn't want to start attempting HPTA recovery until 5mg of SD were achieved on week 6.

Also i wouldn't run the taper out to week 8-10 or anything because it's too much time on a fast acting oral, you will get desensitized to it eventually esp. since you are dosing lower and lower, 30mg*3 weeks will f--k up your cholesterol, and the next 6 weeks will maintained the fked up HDL/LDL partition.

10mg epi bridge into pct anyone? lol. Run SD heavy, bridge into heavy Epi, taper down and start PCT on a 10mg epi bridge. Hmm it makes you wonder.

Yea man I never even knew pyramiding is so popular. It is mentioned in so many steroid books and studies as methods people use to cycle.

I just can't find any articles or literature on how it affects the body and which one would be superior.

The way I see it is even if you don't experience any recovery while tapering down, I bet it feels a lot better to slowly come off a steroid as opposed to abrupt stopping. (ESPECIALLY on fast acting orals)

Howbout:

SD: 10/20/20/30/
Epi: 00/00/00/00/45/30/15/10/

I wonder how the come down would feel on that. I know on my bridge, day 4 into PCT once everything was cleared... holy sh*t did I feel weak in the gym... like all of the sudden I felt so weak. I wonder if strength loss and that weakness would creep in slower... I bet it would feel better.

Ahhh... I will keep searching in the studies...

I'm really curious though to taper of an SD/Epi bridge and compare the come down to my old cycle. Man... the come down was rough. Like instant drop in weight, instant drop in strength, instant drop in size... (mostly glycogen but I'm sure some muscle as well). A slower loss of strength, weight, and size seems like an easier time to adjust to and handle in order to better retain your gains. Maybe...

Btw you bish... I'm not an ectomorph :aargh:

at least not fully lol

 

[wastedwhiteboy2]

What you guys need to remember is there are multiple ways to increase your bodies test levels. Decrease the amount on the androgen and estrogen receptors, decreasing the conversion of test to DHT and estrogen. Your body will try to put these hormones back to normal levels. Starting the Nolva and AI will make the body think that there is not enough estrogen so it will want to produce more test…assuming the androgen receptor is not being overloaded. The finasteride reduces the amount of DHT and blocks conversion so the body will again want more test… again assuming there is not too much androgen in the body. Tapering down the androgen will tell the body we need more test…The question is how much SD is that low point. Simply tapering off the SD will take some time to recover but if you can manipulate the estrogen and DHT it will speed up things. Also different steroids have been known to shut you down further than others…take M1T at 20mg and in 4 days you are looking at test levels of 13. SD 30mg you would be at 100.

If you know how a PH will react in your body I see no reason to taper up. Start getting gains immediately then taper down. I also like the idea of pulsing at low doses.

 

[ZamaMan]

CM great thread. One of the best of the year brotha.

I agree that if you have experiance with the steroid there's no reason to start low. Starting at your dosage will allow your Body to get to the peak levels faster thus bring more gains earlier. The taper down is interesting, people who pluse sd or just run one pill in the morning do not experiance as much shut down so it does make sense that perhaps some recovey is possible. I'd like to try it like this

week 1-5 sd 20
week 6 sd 10
week 7 sd 5
week 8 sd 5mg every other day

serm week 7-13 starting moderate upping to full dose in week 8
an AI low dose week 7 on tapered slowly.

 

[mark118]

Howbout:

SD: 10/20/20/30/
Epi: 00/00/00/00/45/30/15/10/
Nolva 0/0/00/00/00/00/00/20/20/10/10/10 perhaps

i like this, especially how there isnt overlap of the SD with the epi. I remember, I asked PA whether an overlap was necessary and he didnt think it was.

As suggested, overlapping the 10mg/day with the 1st week of nolva is an interesting idea

 

[ZamaMan]

Overlap prob isn't neccesary since a steroid is active within hours, however dispite the fact that it is causing it's effects immediately, it takes some time before it's been in your system long enough actually see the gains. I like a week overlap myself

 

[mark118]

Overlap prob isn't neccesary since a steroid is active within hours, however dispite the fact that it is causing it's effects immediately, it takes some time before it's been in your system long enough actually see the gains. I like a week overlap myself

i should clarified it more.

basically, when you 1st start it takes a while for it to become 'active' ie noticable effects - increased glycogen storage, increased protein synthesis etc... however, once the androgen receptor is stimulated, it either is or isnt, and so overlap of 1 anabolic with another should in theory be no different, only in terms of affinity/strength.

so what im saying, which is something PA in principal agrees with is... if you've been on SD for 3 weeks, there is no reason to bridge it as they both act on the same receptor, and it makes no physiological sense for the next anabolic to need time to 'kick in' as the whole process has already been in full swing for weeks.

 

[Segugio]

My primary concern would be that there exists a point where your relative suppression is greater than the benefits of the drug.

Example:

20mg of SD gives |X| of benefit and |Y| of suppression. (X > Y) is obvious because gains exceed what they would at Max Value of |Y|.

2.5mg of SD gives |X| of benefit and |Y| of suppression. (X ? Y) because the benefit that could be received from the suppressed androgens may possibly exceed the benefit of the low dose SD.

You are gambling on the linearity of the relationship. Not saying it's a bad gamble, but there's only anecdotal evidence either way, so there isn't going to be a clean answer.

 

[chocolatemilk]

Overlap is not really necessary with fast acting orals but a nice low dose of the compound you are bridging into enhances the cycle.

I think overlapping should be utilized by more advanced users, but someone would be just fine not to overlap because the steroids work immediately.

 

[chocolatemilk]

My primary concern would be that there exists a point where your relative suppression is greater than the benefits of the drug.

Example:

20mg of SD gives |X| of benefit and |Y| of suppression. (X > Y) is obvious because gains exceed what they would at Max Value of |Y|.

2.5mg of SD gives |X| of benefit and |Y| of suppression. (X ? Y) because the benefit that could be received from the suppressed androgens may possibly exceed the benefit of the low dose SD.

You are gambling on the linearity of the relationship. Not saying it's a bad gamble, but there's only anecdotal evidence either way, so there isn't going to be a clean answer.

Great post here...

 

[chocolatemilk]

Lowering your dose of steroids will lessen shutdown. It has to. It's just the dosage scheme that is the problem as there are no studies on many of todays compounds as already pointed out.

When you finish a cycle, you have low biological T so the body starts homeostasis recovery.

You can artificially cause a low T state by lowering your dose of a steroid to the point where the body begins homeostasis recovery.

Artificially causing a low T state (but relatively high to keep gains) while recovering... hm.. sounds pretty damn good.

But what dosage causes this is beyond me...

 

[Dr.Lang]

Ostarine

 

[B5150]

Since it is a dose-dependent relationship, logically, adding more steroids, adds more shutdown, bringing down the steroid slowly, brings down shut down with it.

But that doesn't follow with the fact that shut down is dose dependent. I know it is complicated and not as simple but at the foundation of it all, lower your dose = lower in shut down.

Lowering your dose of steroids will lessen shutdown. It has to. It's just the dosage scheme that is the problem as there are no studies on many of todays compounds as already pointed out.

When you finish a cycle, you have low biological T so the body starts homeostasis recovery.

You can artificially cause a low T state by lowering your dose of a steroid to the point where the body begins homeostasis recovery.

Artificially causing a low T state (but relatively high to keep gains) while recovering... hm.. sounds pretty damn good.

But what dosage causes this is beyond me...

Where is the data that supports the 'fact' that shutdown is dose dependent? 300mg of testosterone may shut me down. Does 600mg shut down more than shut down? Is there a less than zero?

I believe there is more to shutdown than simply serum levels of testosterone to consider. If you have zero levels or minute levels of serum testosterone yet your LH is zero it seems to me you are down - no more signally - regardless of serum levels.

You show a linear chart. Is this fact or speculation?

The trouble I am having with the concept is that once you are shut down you don't unshutdown. The opposite of shutdown is restart not unshutdown.

Although your body will seek homeostasis I see the time frame far greater than the tapering, and the shutdown, as mentioned, will outweigh the declining exogenous androgen levels that keep you inhibited.

 

[chocolatemilk]

Where is the data that supports the 'fact' that shutdown is dose dependent? 300mg of testosterone may shut me down. Does 600mg shut down more than shut down? Is there a less than zero?

You show a linear chart. Is this fact or speculation?

http://ajs.sagepub.com/content/32/2/534.full

I don't have access to this article but there were selected bits floating around the net, one of them being:

"Exogenous AAS administration produces a dose-dependent depression of luteinizing hormone and follicle-stimulating hormone via the negative feedback loop of the hypothalamic-pituitary-gonadal axis.46,56 The adverse endocrine effects are gender specific."

This excerpt may or may not be in the article, but I don't want to pay $36 to find out lol. I'm sure it is.

This article here also shows how shut down is dose dependent:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11700852

Men taking in different amounts of Test E for six months. 25, 50, 100, 300 mg.

LH in the 100 and 300 mg group decreased by 80-90% compared to controls.

LH in the 50 mg group decreased by 50% compared to controls.

That shows a dose dependent relationship. "Should" be a straight line on a graph give or take all the other process involved.

I believe there is more to shutdown than simply serum levels of testosterone to consider. If you have zero levels or minute levels of serum testosterone yet your LH is zero it seems to me you are down - no more signally - regardless of serum levels.

True, there is way more to HPTA shut down than serum testosterone levels.

But lets say you are tapering off a steroid, you can bring down the androgen levels low enough that the hypothalamus receptors aren't activated as much... this will signal GnRH which signals LH which stimulates testosterone.

What dose would do this is the problem...

The trouble I am having with the concept is that once you are shut down you don't unshutdown. The opposite shutdown is restart not unshutdown.

What about the middle? The body does not only go through "shut down" and "restart." There is a whole middle process.

Shut down is a variable which changes up and down... it does not jump from point A to B. You can be half way shut down... which would be considered "unshutdown" wouldn't it?

Although your body will seek homeostasis I see the time frame far greater than the tapering, and the shutdown, as mentioned, will outweigh the declining exogenous androgen levels that keep you inhibited.

Yea I see the problem with that.

I'm not sure about recovery on a low dose of SD... But if you are shut down 80% on 300 mg of test/week and you drop your test injections to 50 mg/week, the body would respond due to the lower hypothalamus androgen receptor activation and make more GnRH.

That makes complete sense with a dose dependent relationship. (speculation)

You would also have 50mg of test in your system opposed to very low biological T to work out with. You wouldn't experience a hormone crash.

The recovery bit is harder to explain and work with as there is scant literature on the subject. I may test it out for myself but it can be debated back and forth all day.

I'm more centered on the transition off the steroid by tapering at this point... Regardless of recovery or not, I bet it feels a ton better to transition off a steroid as opposed to abrupt stopping.

 

[ryansm]

Not sure about a strong oral like SD, the second study is in reference to Test E, and thus specific relation to the male hormone. It also states that it's not standard to all men. SD shuts you down fast, and I believe<speculate, that even at small doses after 3 weeks recovery will not take place. Besides that what are the benefits to continuing to keep lipids at dangerous levels? IMO that is a big concern that gets passed over often, the liver is resilient and can recuperate, however, the damage done to the heart is not.

 

[chocolatemilk]

Not sure about a strong oral like SD, the second study is in reference to Test E, and thus specific relation to the male hormone. It also states that it's not standard to all men. SD shuts you down fast, and I believe<speculate, that even at small doses after 3 weeks recovery will not take place. Besides that what are the benefits to continuing to keep lipids at dangerous levels? IMO that is a big concern that gets passed over often, the liver is resilient and can recuperate, however, the damage done to the heart is not.

Test E would be the ideal steroid to taper or pyramid.

SD is questionable for sure... but I would run an 8-10 week taper and see how it goes with SD with some bloods.

How do you know that recovery will not take place after 3 weeks of a very low dose?

I don't think there is anything that supports that idea... nor is there support that recovery would take place.

Edit: you speculate one can not recover on a low dose of SD. Disregard my question.

I speculate one can indeed recover on a very low dose of SD. How low of a dose is the question... if it is so low that would not produce any aid in muscle retention... than can the idea... But it needs to be tested :damnit:

 

[ZamaMan]

Keep in mind any SD will be out of your system by night time so why wouldn't you body recover some through out the night? Now the question is can 5 mg of sd shut down all that work yyr body did through the night recovering slightly? Seems you'd prob hae o change your workouts to firs thing in morning to take advantage of any low levels of SD as low as they may be.