T3\T4

[BioCorRob]

Wait but when you were pushing your product you told someone it may cause suppression? Now it causes suppression at doses below 300 micrograms?

And when did I ever imply that what I did was safe?

Basically using your reasoning and my experience shows that we are dealing with a dangerous substance that manufacturers will not admit to how dangerous it can be when they can sell it, but it has no upside.

So how is it safe that you recommend people use something that has potential suppression at the doses you recommend using but won't even caused any benefit at four times that dose?

If you bothered to actually look, you'd see we recommend a maximum of 200mcg per day with instructions on the label to NEVER USE MORE THAN THE RECOMMENDED DOSAGE. That's there for a reason. Your argument against me is invalid. And your reasoning for trying to act like you're all-knowing about T2 is that just because YOU took too much of it and had no effect that it doesn't work for anyone. We've seen people have success with it as little as 100mcg daily. And so have other companies that use it/have used it in products in the past. SAN used it, Hi Tech used to make a product with it, Liquid Labs makes a product with it, and probably others I am missing.

Using your logic, I can say that I took 1 scoop of a product with DMAA and felt nothing - no effects at all - so DMAA does not work. Yet, there are countless other people out there that take (took) supplements containing DMAA and had super results with it (sometimes at dosages BELOW what the manufacturer recommended).

 

[HIT4ME]

If you bothered to actually look, you'd see we recommend a maximum of 200mcg per day with instructions on the label to NEVER USE MORE THAN THE RECOMMENDED DOSAGE. That's there for a reason. Your argument against me is invalid. And your reasoning for trying to act like you're all-knowing about T2 is that just because YOU took too much of it and had no effect that it doesn't work for anyone. We've seen people have success with it as little as 100mcg daily. And so have other companies that use it/have used it in products in the past. SAN used it, Hi Tech used to make a product with it, Liquid Labs makes a product with it, and probably others I am missing.

Using your logic, I can say that I took 1 scoop of a product with DMAA and felt nothing - no effects at all - so DMAA does not work. Yet, there are countless other people out there that take (took) supplements containing DMAA and had super results with it (sometimes at dosages BELOW what the manufacturer recommended).

I never said it doesn't work for anyone. I said it doesn't work for me. I said I've even tried doses of 1.2 mg. You said that was unsafe. I agreed. It is unsafe. And I can't recommend anyone use this compound based on the fact that 4 times or in your case six times the dose that you recommend has negative sides and small if any potential upside.

The irony is I have doesn't post before that you were saying how it's safe. You didn't take note with the fact that I didn't have any effects at 1200 micrograms. You took note with the fact that that is unsafe. Again which I agreed with.

And for some reason you're upset with me being Reckless with my own body but yet you make recommendations for other people to use your product at doses that you admit are probably suppressive. And when it's your product it's totally safe.

You say that doses below 300 micrograms will cost suppression. And then suddenly doses at 200 micrograms may cause depression but that's no big deal you'll just rebound. Just use some tyrosine.

And the fact that all you can bring up his suppression shows that you don't even really understand the dangers. There are far worse in immediate side effects that you need to be aware of with thyroid hormones. None of which change for me at all while using 1.2 million mg of T2.

So yeah. Basically I don't recommend it to anyone. The upside is minimal if it all and the effective dose is usually above the point at which side effects occur.

 

[HIT4ME]

If you bothered to actually look, you'd see we recommend a maximum of 200mcg per day with instructions on the label to NEVER USE MORE THAN THE RECOMMENDED DOSAGE. That's there for a reason. Your argument against me is invalid. And your reasoning for trying to act like you're all-knowing about T2 is that just because YOU took too much of it and had no effect that it doesn't work for anyone. We've seen people have success with it as little as 100mcg daily. And so have other companies that use it/have used it in products in the past. SAN used it, Hi Tech used to make a product with it, Liquid Labs makes a product with it, and probably others I am missing.

Using your logic, I can say that I took 1 scoop of a product with DMAA and felt nothing - no effects at all - so DMAA does not work. Yet, there are countless other people out there that take (took) supplements containing DMAA and had super results with it (sometimes at dosages BELOW what the manufacturer recommended).

I never said it doesn't work for anyone. I said it doesn't work for me. I said I've even tried doses of 1.2 mg. You said that was unsafe. I agreed. It is unsafe. And I can't recommend anyone use this compound based on the fact that 4 times or in your case six times the dose that you recommend has negative sides and small if any potential upside.

The irony is I have doesn't post before that you were saying how it's safe. You didn't take note with the fact that I didn't have any effects at 1200 micrograms. You took note with the fact that that is unsafe. Again which I agreed with.

And for some reason you're upset with me being Reckless with my own body but yet you make recommendations for other people to use your product at doses that you admit are probably suppressive. And when it's your product it's totally safe.

You say that doses below 300 micrograms will cost suppression. And then suddenly doses at 200 micrograms may cause depression but that's no big deal you'll just rebound. Just use some tyrosine.

And the fact that all you can bring up his suppression shows that you don't even really understand the dangers. There are far worse in immediate side effects that you need to be aware of with thyroid hormones. None of which change for me at all while using 1.2 million mg of T2.

So yeah. Basically I don't recommend it to anyone. The upside is minimal if it all and the effective dose is usually above the point at which side effects occur.

 

[BioCorRob]

My issue here is that by you posting that you did 1.2mg of T2 with no effect, others could assume that's OK for them to do as well. Now that we've cleared up that you're admitting 1.2mg was unsafe, we can call this a day. If you had no effect at 1.2mg, I'm not arguing that. Sorry to hear it didn't work for you. We're all smart enough here on AM to know that not all supplements work for everyone.

Hell, I wasn't kidding about the DMAA either. 1 scoop of a very popular DMAA preworkout does absolutely nothing for me. 2 scoops I barely felt a thing. I could very well have tried 4-5 scoops (which would equate to probably around 3-4x the max daily "safe" dosage of DMAA) and had no effect. That doesn't mean it doesn't work, it just doesn't work for me - but I can't in good conscience go around telling people I tried 5 scoops of it and it did nothing because that may make them try that as well. 5 scoops for someone else may land them in the hospital.

Hope you can see where I'm going with this - I'm not attacking you personally.

 

[HIT4ME]

My issue here is that by you posting that you did 1.2mg of T2 with no effect, others could assume that's OK for them to do as well. Now that we've cleared up that you're admitting 1.2mg was unsafe, we can call this a day. If you had no effect at 1.2mg, I'm not arguing that. Sorry to hear it didn't work for you. We're all smart enough here on AM to know that not all supplements work for everyone.

Hell, I wasn't kidding about the DMAA either. 1 scoop of a very popular DMAA preworkout does absolutely nothing for me. 2 scoops I barely felt a thing. I could very well have tried 4-5 scoops (which would equate to probably around 3-4x the max daily "safe" dosage of DMAA) and had no effect. That doesn't mean it doesn't work, it just doesn't work for me - but I can't in good conscience go around telling people I tried 5 scoops of it and it did nothing because that may make them try that as well. 5 scoops for someone else may land them in the hospital.

Hope you can see where I'm going with this - I'm not attacking you personally.

It's fine man. I know that you're saying it's unsafe and I agree with that. If you go back and reread where you said it was unsafe the very first thing I said was I agree. And I don't recommend it for people.

It's a really exciting and interesting compound. In my experience using it over more than a decade, almost two decades it doesn't pan out in the real world. I personally think the risk-reward is upside down. Almost is suppressive is T3 and not as effective.

On the other hand I'm not very sensitive to thyroid hormones. Someone who is Maci good results with 100 micrograms and would have major side effects at just 300 micrograms... which is great and that is why you always use the minimal effective dose.

Plus, stacked with something like T3 or an uncoupler, maybe the effects of t2 are increased, but I would not recommend that as being safe either.

Overall, it's the internet and I think it is easy to get signals crossed. But it was a good talk No hurt feelings. I am a little crazy, no one should do what I do. That should be my tag line maybe?

 

[BioCorRob]

No worries, it's all good.

Personally, and as a company, I am always very conservative with things like this. I always get a little antsy when I see people talking about taking way too much of a dosage of prohormones as well - but I stay out of those conversations since I'm admittedly not AS familiar with PHs. There are some crazy guys that double up on max recommended dosages of prohormones (because gainz, bro) and the same issues can occur. What works/is safe for them, a beginner could come in and think they can do it to get faster gains and seriously throw off their body (and worse yet, not be educated that you absolutely should take a PCT after any PH cycle).

And for the record, I posted that T2 has been shown to be suppressive "as low as 300-400mcg". Which would put our max 200mcg daily dose below suppressive levels. Anyone that's worried about suppression even at 200mcg can take the tyrosine, etc for piece of mind - it can't hurt.

I dare you to make that tagline your signature.

 

[HIT4ME]

No worries, it's all good.

Personally, and as a company, I am always very conservative with things like this. I always get a little antsy when I see people talking about taking way too much of a dosage of prohormones as well - but I stay out of those conversations since I'm admittedly not AS familiar with PHs. There are some crazy guys that double up on max recommended dosages of prohormones (because gainz, bro) and the same issues can occur. What works/is safe for them, a beginner could come in and think they can do it to get faster gains and seriously throw off their body (and worse yet, not be educated that you absolutely should take a PCT after any PH cycle).

And for the record, I posted that T2 has been shown to be suppressive "as low as 300-400mcg". Which would put our max 200mcg daily dose below suppressive levels. Anyone that's worried about suppression even at 200mcg can take the tyrosine, etc for piece of mind - it can't hurt.

I dare you to make that tagline your signature.

I agree and this is why things get taken away from the industry, people not following rules. I was well aware of the potential dangers when I tried that and already had extensive experience using the compound. I didn't just jump into 1.2 mg and wouldn't ever recommend anyone use it at those doses.

My point is just that I have given it every possible chance and it does not seem to be super effective for me.

I also question why it has been left around in the industry for so long when things like Tiratricol got taken down quick.

And yes, 200 mcg for most people should be reasonably "safe"...whatever safe means.

Anyway, I probably caused it to get too personal and riled things up...sorry for that. It wasn't against you.

 

[BioCorRob]

I also question why it has been left around in the industry for so long when things like Tiratricol got taken down quick.

I had not heard about that one, but just did some basic research and it appears that its probably got a lot to do with DSHEA and how that's handled. T2 is naturally occurring so legal as a supplement under DSHEA. It appears that Tiratricol had an NDI filed and was then classified as a "drug". The same could realistically happen for T2 at any time, at which time we'd discontinue making any products with it.

 

[HIT4ME]

I had not heard about that one, but just did some basic research and it appears that its probably got a lot to do with DSHEA and how that's handled. T2 is naturally occurring so legal as a supplement under DSHEA. It appears that Tiratricol had an NDI filed and was then classified as a "drug". The same could realistically happen for T2 at any time, at which time we'd discontinue making any products with it.

Yes, it was a drug candidate and the pharma companies were all over it. Could happen to T2, but it's been 20 years.

 

[BioCorRob]

Yes, it was a drug candidate and the pharma companies were all over it. Could happen to T2, but it's been 20 years.

In my personal opinion, it's doubtful to ever happen in T2's case since T3 is already so prevalent. I know you'll disagree with this, but that's ok. lol. In my opinion, T2 is useful as a supplement in otherwise healthy individuals to aid in weight loss but not useful as a drug since to mimick effects of T3, the dosage of T2 would need to be very high. For T2 (as a drug, not a supplement) to treat or cure any thyroid condition, it just doesn't make sense to go through the NDI, R&D, etc. (ie, $$$) to do that when T3 already exists and is making them so much money. But, it's the government...so anything can happen.

 

[HIT4ME]

In my personal opinion, it's doubtful to ever happen in T2's case since T3 is already so prevalent. I know you'll disagree with this, but that's ok. lol. In my opinion, T2 is useful as a supplement in otherwise healthy individuals to aid in weight loss but not useful as a drug since to mimick effects of T3, the dosage of T2 would need to be very high. For T2 (as a drug, not a supplement) to treat or cure any thyroid condition, it just doesn't make sense to go through the NDI, R&D, etc. (ie, $$$) to do that when T3 already exists and is making them so much money. But, it's the government...so anything can happen.

Actually, I don't disagree with that assessment at all really - it's kind of my point. At some point/dose the downsides of T2 are going to be equal to t3 itself and T3 will give much more upside. Now, T2 being a weaker drug may give some headroom for adjusting if you happen to be sensitive to thyroid hormones - not saying it is useless entirely - just that the risk/reward is questionable and for me it seems to not even move the needle, good or bad.

Having said that, I do know there are a few very interesting studies on T2 and it has its own effects aside from T3 - but since we're talking fat loss and shut down, I think a lot of times the picture that is painted isn't totally objective. T3 and T2 have, at least in theory, similar sides to varying degrees. T2 doesn't have the exact upside as T3, it's different, but most people use it for the same reason as T3 and T3's upside for that purpose is going to be stronger.

In other words, everyone avoids T3 because of the dangers, but T2 kind of gets painted as being "safe". The idea of safe itself is tough to define - but it isn't like you get the upside of T3 and fewer sides by using T2 - it's actually a big trade off.

That's my real life experience. Other people swear it works, there are mixed studies and some of the studies are extremely promising.

And as far as it getting pulled - I think you are right. If the drug companies saw it as being a potential drug, they would have pulled it quickly. Tiratricol was pulled super quick, raids and all. That isn't an assessment of good or bad either - just that for some reason it doesn't fit a viable profile for them.

 

[BioCorRob]

And as far as it getting pulled - I think you are right. If the drug companies saw it as being a potential drug, they would have pulled it quickly. Tiratricol was pulled super quick, raids and all. That isn't an assessment of good or bad either - just that for some reason it doesn't fit a viable profile for them.

Which is something I think you and I both agree on - at the end of the day, I think it all comes down to $$$ with the pharma companies and not the "safety" that they would lead us to believe they care so much about. Not to keep beating a dead horse, but I cannot tell you how many people that we will flat out refuse to sell our T2 to because they ask a specific medical questions which we are legally unable to answer. They'll say they have thyroid disease, Hashimoto's, etc and can they take T2 to help. The big problem here ethically and morally for us is, while we could play the game and say "Sure, it may HELP", I'd rather just not make the sale and tell them to go ask their physician. In cases like that, the dosage of T2 would have to be so high that it's just not cost effective to even go there - not to mention that when we know someone has a medical condition, it's very borderline stuff of what we're legally allowed to respond with. Personally, I'd rather just not make the sale and sleep better at night in cases like that.