Does going all the way down on squats make your knees more prone to injury or does it actually do the opposite and strengthen them?
Thanks, mac. I haven't squatted for a little over amonth now due to an injury that I think came from doing leg curls too heavy. But this pain is actually in the back of my knee. Getting better tho.It can put added stress on your patella tendon. It's more of a problem though if your knees are out over your toes - that increases the potential for possible tears.
damn, it's official then - I tore patellar tendon from squatsIt can put added stress on your patella tendon. It's more of a problem though if your knees are out over your toes - that increases the potential for possible tears.
http://www.johnberardi.com/updates/jan312003/na_myths.htmMyth #1: The Knee Shall Never Cross The Line Of The Toe
Every new trainer loves to spout this one off as a display of his or her biomechanical knowledge. They constantly scour the gym-goers movements on a noble quest to ensure patellar safety across the land. Unfortunately this unsubstantiated notion is perpetuated and accepted as fact in gyms everywhere. These are the same trainers that allow a gross deviation of the patella to the medial or lateral aspect during an exercise (the knee pointing a different direction than the foot), which actually is dangerous and degenerative.
If one were to assess knee injuries in athletic (read as: sport) environments, it becomes apparent that a high percentage of patellar trauma cases are sustained while the knee is beyond the all-sacred toe-line. In a misguided attempt to avoid knee injuries, the exercise community has therefore made this knee position taboo. In reality, the opposite reaction would have been preferential. Since this knee position is unavoidable in sports, or even in everyday life (try walking up or down stairs or a hill without your knee crossing your toe line) the proper way to prevent injuries is to strengthen the musculature around the joint by allowing the knee to travel into the “unsafe� zone in a controlled environment.
All joints contain feedback mechanisms inside the connective tissue and joint capsules called proprioceptors. These communicate with your nervous system to tell your brain what position your joint is at. This is how you can close your eyes and be aware of exactly what angle all of your joints are at without actually seeing them. To simplify a complicated issue, the more time you spend with your knee past your toe-line, the more you teach your nervous system to activate the protective soft tissue around the joint therefore PREVENTING injury during athletic situations (Supertraining, Siff & Verkoshansky, 1993). Close your eyes and think of a highly succesful strength coach. Yep, he agrees. Somehow, this news just doesn’t buy column space in Muscle and Fatness.
So remember this - the “golden rule� that the knee should never cross the line of the toe during any type of lunging exercise should be buried in the ocean with the lost city of Atlantis. (Of course, if this position causes consistent pain, then you should avoid this particular variation of the exercise).
Myth #2: Full Squats (below parallel) Are Bad For The Knees
More squat myths?!?
We’ve all heard it, if you dip below parallel during a squat, your kneecap will blow off and land in the front desk girl’s mocha latte. Well it just ain’t true! What’s that, you need a little more evidence? Ok boys and girls, its time for today’s episode of Fun With Musculoskeletal Anatomy.
The knee has four main protective ligaments that keep the femur from displacing on the tibia (ACL, PCL, MCL, LCL). These four ligaments are most effective at their protection during full extension and full flexion. Full extension would be when you are standing; full flexion would be when there is no daylight between your hamstring and your calf. When the knee is at 90 degrees of flexion (the halfway point), these four ligaments are almost completely lax and cannot exert much if any of a protective force at the knee (Zatsiorsky V. Kinematics of human motion. 1998 - published by Human Kinetics - p.301).
Unfortunately, the position where the protective ligaments of the knee are not doing any protecting is the common recommended stopping point of a squat. Therefore, as it as it turns out, this is the exact worst place you could reverse the motion under load.
If flexibility allows (heels staying planted, torso not flexing forward past 45 degrees), then a full squat where you lower yourself all the way to the ground is far safer on the knees than the traditional half squat. Guess what joint angle most leg extension machines start at? If you said 90 degrees, give yourself a pat on your healthy knee. This makes a full squat even safer than a leg extension machine (Wilk K et al. A comparison of tibiofemoral joint forces and electromyographic activity during open and closed kinetic chain exercises. Am J Sports Med; 24(4):518-527).
So am I telling you never to do parallel squats? No! Am I saying that you’ll injure yourself on a parallel squat? No, again! What I’m trying to do is simply make an argument for the safety of full squats, thereby relegating squat myth #2 to the fiery pits of hades.
It's patellar refering to the knee, that was i was told... Direct middle of knee I believe. Jump Squats can do it to you quick, injury is common to basketball. It's only 5-6weeks for recovery following sugery.where is the patella tendon? I tore something above my calf muscle.
I place my feet just outside shoulders and go down until my thighs are parallel to the floor. This shifts the weight off your knees to your gluts and hamstrings. People who usually have knee problems either don't don't go far enough so the full weight inflicts a large amount of pressure on the joint or go all the way down and do their "bounce". THe full range of motion is different for everyone depending on body structure but for me if I keep my thighs parallel to the floor, I achieve a full range of motion.Bobo, wanna throw down your 2 cents?
Thx, Bo. You're a 5 star chef when it comes to food for thought.I place my feet just outside shoulders and go down until my thighs are parallel to the floor. This shifts the weight off your knees to your gluts and hamstrings. People who usually have knee problems either don't don't go far enough so the full weight inflicts a large amount of pressure on the joint or go all the way down and do their "bounce". THe full range of motion is different for everyone depending on body structure but for me if I keep my thighs parallel to the floor, I achieve a full range of motion.
My 2 cents...
I have torn my acl/pcl/and mcl....and the pain you have in the back of your knee is a acl problem....you may want get it checked before you tear it all the way...it may be a simple scope job and your on your way pain free !Thanks, mac. I haven't squatted for a little over amonth now due to an injury that I think came from doing leg curls too heavy. But this pain is actually in the back of my knee. Getting better tho.
Well it's feeling much better now. And I actually was able to work legs last Sunday. What do you mean by scope job and how would that rid me of the pain?I have torn my acl/pcl/and mcl....and the pain you have in the back of your knee is a acl problem....you may want get it checked before you tear it all the way...it may be a simple scope job and your on your way pain free !
Oooooweee, I don't think I need all that just yet man. Since I started my cycle, I've been rubbing some 1-test and 4ad directly on there to bring the ligament from 95% back to 100%. It actually seems to be helping.getting your knee scoped is surgery. from what i understand, they go in and remove all the excess cartilage or something to that effect.
dittoMy knees don't hurt nearly as much when I go ATG. I can't lift nearly as much weight either, but even so, I feel it way more in the muscle and not in the knees during and after ATG squats.
Squat like a powerlifter and knee pain disappears? Who would have guessedYeah I wanted to bump this up again...a kid I went to high school just started going to my gym and today he was telling me how he's a gym teacher now, went to school as a Phys Ed major.
I went over and started squatting, and after my 225x12 set he came over and told me wanted to protect my knees, and that they were just in front of my toes when I squat. Now I've never videotaped myself, but I know that about a year ago when I started squatting, I had knee pain bad. I eventually dropped the weight, worked on my form, and now I feel it is pretty good.
My current form is legs almost to the edge of the power rack (I'm 6'1", all legs), toes slight outwards, bar low on my traps, abs tight, back arched, head up. My upper body stays at about 45 degrees throughout the bottom portion of the movement. Since I've been using this form I have zero pain when squatting (well, zero bad pain) and everything feels like it's working well. No back pain, no knee pain, no injuries. My hams and glutes get sore as **** from squatting, so I feel like I'm sitting back far enough.
Any thoughts, or should I have someone in to videotape?
It's very true (this coming from a person whose goal is bbing).Squat like a powerlifter and knee pain disappears? Who would have guessed
PLers go to parallel .. olympic lifters go ATGIt's very true (this coming from a person whose goal is bbing).
Ass-to-grass makes the pain go away.
This coming from a guy who has "making PLers feel fat..." doesn't surprise mePLers go to parallel .. olympic lifters go ATG
.. at least i think..
You just described my squat conundrum perfectly.as for the squatting, being 6'2" and mostly legs makes below parallel really difficult for me and I end up sacraficing form, letting my upper half drift forward mainly, but if I'm using wraps I try to get part of my thigh closest to my mid section 1-2" below parallel, without wraps I gotta call it quits at parallel, knees just can't do it...I'm only 18, i'm gonna fall apart if I keep this sh*t up!
I am also 18, and I already tore my meniscus in my knee from squatting. I've been losing mass on my legs also due to not squatting or doing leg exercises for about a month.I'm only 18, i'm gonna fall apart if I keep this sh*t up!
No big deal on having your knee scopped.Oooooweee, I don't think I need all that just yet man. Since I started my cycle, I've been rubbing some 1-test and 4ad directly on there to bring the ligament from 95% back to 100%. It actually seems to be helping.
What kind of weight and form were you using when you tore it?I am also 18, and I already tore my meniscus in my knee from squatting. I've been losing mass on my legs also due to not squatting or doing leg exercises for about a month.
Trust me, you will be much happier than you know by lessening the weight and watching your form. I can't wait to squat again, because now i will do it correctly.
All the wack ass **** we do is tons of fun. I can't imagine just doing straight sets of bar weight ever again... *yawn*fair enough kwycke
i was just talking about in competition .. i've never paid TOO much attention to how PLer's train .. once chains and something about benching with boards comes into play ... I'M OUT! lol
i was stupid and was stopping at parallel, it put too much pressure on my knees.What kind of weight and form were you using when you tore it?
Now you know, and knowing is half the battlei was stupid and was stopping at parallel, it put too much pressure on my knees.
I hate to tell you, it's probably because they didn't know you were doing anything wrong...going to parallel isn't wrong either. It's simply easier on the knees to go ATG.the only bad part is that i found out the hard way!
it sucks tho cuz none of the trainers said anything to me when i was doing it.
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