Pre must haves?

[mase1]

Building best pre for performance...
Creatine, l-citrulline, hica, gms, taurine, carb...
What would be the best daily combo? I know we were all waiting for SNS to release theirs.... but what would you include?

 

[BigGame84]

MA Labs ProSynthesis-Build plus added Creatine Hcl (SNS). Done.

 

[Resolve10]

Depends on what you mean by performance? That is pretty broad.

 

[mase1]

MA Labs ProSynthesis-Build plus added Creatine Hcl (SNS). Done.

Good point.

 

[mase1]

Depends on what you mean by performance? That is pretty broad.

Basic hypertrophy program

 

[Jeremyk1]

MA Labs ProSynthesis-Build plus added Creatine Hcl (SNS). Done.

Yeah this will be tough to beat for long term gains.

If you want acute performance increase, pretty much stims. Or alpha GPC. Not a lot else. Some NO boosters have potential for sure, but that will also depend on what performance you want.

 

[Resolve10]

Basic hypertrophy program

Still pretty broad, but I guess closer to specific.

I don't mean to be too annoying, it is just there are so many things out there that you really can pick based on specific situations and needs. I also think most of the things people think they need "preworkout" are better served as daily use ingredients and that choosing what to use pre is going to be "conditional" based on lots of factors.

Do we want energy? Pumps? What is the nutritional status prior to training? Etc.

That said some of my preferences that is no way comprehensive and definitely doesn't mean take them all:

Traditional and not necessarily needed pre daily:
Creatine + maybe Beta Alanine

Daily with potential directly pre benefits:
Taurine, TMG/Betaine, Citrulline Malate, Actigin/Senactiv, Amentoflavone, Nitrosigine/Noolvl, LCLT

Blood Pressure, Vascular, Heart Health + potential for performance and "fun" (pumps):
Nitrates, Amealpeptides, Tea Extracts (Vaso6), S7, Epicatechin

Based on food timing and feeding strategies:
Protein, EAAs, Leucine, Carbs (HBCD), Electrolytes (salt)

That doesn't even get into things for energy (caffeine) or various nootropics that may be beneficial in certain individuals situations, Adaptogenic like ingredients (Rhodiola, Ash, PeakO2), and all the different various Natural Anabolics that will probably help but may or may not need to be taken directly pre-workout anyways.

 

[sns8778]

Building best pre for performance...
Creatine, l-citrulline, hica, gms, taurine, carb...
What would be the best daily combo? I know we were all waiting for SNS to release theirs.... but what would you include?

For me, I'm training late at night right now so I don't have any stims in my pre-workout regimen.

Mine right now is:

VasoForce XT - 3 capsules - (1,000 mg. Agmatine + 600 mg. VASO6 + 100 mg. S7 + 50 mg. Senactiv + 50 mg. AstraGin)
Recovery Fix - 2 caps pre/2 caps post - (1,500 mg. HICA + 600 mg. Palmitoylethanolamide + 50 mg. S7 + 50 mg. Senactiv + 50 mg. Ferulic Acid + 50 mg. AstraGin + 10 mg. Bioperine)

I wash those down with a drink I make consisting of:
Creatine HCI Powder (my go to's are rotating between Blue Raspberry Popsicle and Pink Grapefruit flavor)
Citrulline Malate - 6 grams
Betaine Anhydrous

I use Innovapharm Recover EAA as my EAA and I start sipping on it a few mins before I start and sip on it throughout. I use a higher amount of EAA's than most people, so I do 2 scoops.

If adding in carbs, which depends on my goals at the time, I mix HBCD with my Recover EAA's. I've found that Lemon HBCD goes incredibly well with the Iced Tea flavor of Recover EAA's.

I'll be adding PEAK02 back in Sunday, which I use during periods where I'm doing cardio and I plan on trying to lean out some over the next 2 months.

I'm doing a pretty comprehensive natural anabolic stack and I do take my second dose of the day of that about 30 minutes to an hour before I train, but the above is what I do pretty much all the time.

 

[ELROCK]

MA Labs ProSynthesis-Build plus added Creatine Hcl (SNS). Done.

This ^ is what I use for this

 

[AwakeningAlpha]

I want to try MA Labs ProSynthesis-Build! But I am currently using BioPump'd as it is mega dosed w/ pump products and is stim free. Two other ingredients which I don't always see but really like in Pump'd are Huperzine and Mucuna. They help with the drive and dopamine during the workout and have some pump / GH benefits as well.

I usually take Epicatechin, PA XT, creatine, salt and glycerol -as well as BCAAS / EAAS, and glutamine. Thinking I need to add Vasoforce XT or another S7 product, or beet powder.

 

[kira1357]

My favorite performance preworkout these days is Evomuse Clear Edge - it's the best non-stim nootropic I've ever used for verbal and intellectual performance as well as physical endurance and strength. I can't understand why it doesn't get more discussion here, and @dsade sells it on his website in a 2-pack that is an unbelievably good deal. I also use SNS Creatine HCl and Citrulline Malate and am waiting for my next cut to pull the trigger on MA's

 

[sns8778]

I want to try MA Labs ProSynthesis-Build! But I am currently using BioPump'd as it is mega dosed w/ pump products and is stim free. Two other ingredients which I don't always see but really like in Pump'd are Huperzine and Mucuna. They help with the drive and dopamine during the workout and have some pump / GH benefits as well.

I usually take Epicatechin, PA XT, creatine, salt and glycerol -as well as BCAAS / EAAS, and glutamine. Thinking I need to add Vasoforce XT or another S7 product, or beet powder.

VasoForce XT or Super Swole caps are both great options .

Which one I take depends on my goals at the time.

VasoForce XT gives me a little better results in terms of endurance and it gives great pumps

Super Swole is fantastic for pumps and muscle fullness. It is also a great product for endothelial health and a lot of people notice improved erection quality with it.

 

[AwakeningAlpha]

VasoForce XT or Super Swole caps are both great options .

Which one I take depends on my goals at the time.

VasoForce XT gives me a little better results in terms of endurance and it gives great pumps

Super Swole is fantastic for pumps and muscle fullness. It is also a great product for endothelial health and a lot of people notice improved erection quality with it.

I'll add them to my list of SNS products to try in my next order. Thanks Steve!

 

[xR1pp3Rx]

Triton/Ursa combo~ APEX

 

[sns8778]

I'll add them to my list of SNS products to try in my next order. Thanks Steve!

You're very welcome.

I think you'll really enjoy them. If you try them, let me know how you like them.

 

[kira1357]

Triton/Ursa combo~ APEX

I'm so habituated to using them right when i roll out of bed that I forgot to even mention this combo lol

 

[Smont]

MA Labs ProSynthesis-Build plus added Creatine Hcl (SNS). Done.

I'm using pro-17 with 10gm creatine mono currently. I think it will indefinitely replace all my eaa/bcaa type stuff. Definitely a fan. I heard ppl say the flavor was bad, I don't find bad, just bland so I use some zero cal flavors if I use intra but mostly I just down it pre workout in 6oz of water and chase with more water

 

[botk1161]

I too am loving MA Labs Build. Very noticable recovery and I don't need to buy all these other ingredients.

 

[LeanEngineer]

Super Swole is fantastic for pumps and muscle fullness. It is also a great product for endothelial health and a lot of people notice improved erection quality with it.

Agree on this! Pump is very noticeable.

Super Swole Capsules by Competitive Edge Labs

Ready for fast acting & long lasting PUMPS? Super Swole Capsules by CEL delivers!

www.strongsupplementshop.com

 

[JayNY2Fla]

I’d go with Karbolyn ( 1 scoop or 1/2 scoop ) , L- Ciitrulline, Creatine HCL , HMB and Beta Alanine / Agmatine. I recently am using Epi in my pre workout the past 3 days. Too early to tell if I’m getting anything from it specifically. I guess it’s better after taking it for a few weeks

 

[GreenMachineX]

Still pretty broad, but I guess closer to specific.

I don't mean to be too annoying, it is just there are so many things out there that you really can pick based on specific situations and needs. I also think most of the things people think they need "preworkout" are better served as daily use ingredients and that choosing what to use pre is going to be "conditional" based on lots of factors.

Do we want energy? Pumps? What is the nutritional status prior to training? Etc.

That said some of my preferences that is no way comprehensive and definitely doesn't mean take them all:

Traditional and not necessarily needed pre daily:
Creatine + maybe Beta Alanine

Daily with potential directly pre benefits:
Taurine, TMG/Betaine, Citrulline Malate, Actigin/Senactiv, Amentoflavone, Nitrosigine/Noolvl, LCLT

Blood Pressure, Vascular, Heart Health + potential for performance and "fun" (pumps):
Nitrates, Amealpeptides, Tea Extracts (Vaso6), S7, Epicatechin

Based on food timing and feeding strategies:
Protein, EAAs, Leucine, Carbs (HBCD), Electrolytes (salt)

That doesn't even get into things for energy (caffeine) or various nootropics that may be beneficial in certain individuals situations, Adaptogenic like ingredients (Rhodiola, Ash, PeakO2), and all the different various Natural Anabolics that will probably help but may or may not need to be taken directly pre-workout anyways.

I thought citrulline and cit Mal was only useful pre, other then simple reduction in blood pressure if used daily?

 

[Resolve10]

I thought citrulline and cit Mal was only useful pre, other then simple reduction in blood pressure if used daily?

A lot of the studies are done with daily use. While there are definitely things that can be beneficial about pre-workout dosing, things like blood pressure/blood flow, energy metabolism, and even mTOR benefits can be beneficial outside of training and probably best served with daily dosing.

 

[GreenMachineX]

A lot of the studies are done with daily use. While there are definitely things that can be beneficial about pre-workout dosing, things like blood pressure/blood flow, energy metabolism, and even mTOR benefits can be beneficial outside of training and probably best served with daily dosing.

Oh man. Guess I've been missing out. Thanks.

 

[Resolve10]

Oh man. Guess I've been missing out. Thanks.

I mostly have only ever taken it just pre, but ya there is definitely a case for daily. I think honestly that is probably the case with a lot of the ingredients we see, most don't have super strong immediate impacts and have longer term daily benefits. Especially when some can help with health markers too.

 

[mase1]

I see Core Pump for cheap, any thoughts?

 

[Resolve10]

I see Core Pump for cheap, any thoughts?

Ya I've used that one a ton.

 

[madmuscle24]

One of my favorites personally.

 

[Jeremyk1]

A lot of the studies are done with daily use. While there are definitely things that can be beneficial about pre-workout dosing, things like blood pressure/blood flow, energy metabolism, and even mTOR benefits can be beneficial outside of training and probably best served with daily dosing.

I think I saw something a while back, maybe on ErgoLog, that citrulline actually did a better job preserving lean tissue during a diet than leucine. I don’t remember the details, but yeah, probably super useful with daily doses.

 

[AwakeningAlpha]

Ya I've used that one a ton.

Do those mushrooms under ingredient "Peak02" contribute to pump/bloodflow or just focus and endurance like they are normally marketed as?

 

[AwakeningAlpha]

I think I saw something a while back, maybe on ErgoLog, that citrulline actually did a better job preserving lean tissue during a diet than leucine. I don’t remember the details, but yeah, probably super useful with daily doses.

Really interesting. I would like to see that study if anyone finds it. Cit is one of my favorite feeling supps so I'd love an excuse to use it on rest days or up the dose on a cut. I do 10k a day via BioPump'd but usually only on workout days.

 

[Resolve10]

I think I saw something a while back, maybe on ErgoLog, that citrulline actually did a better job preserving lean tissue during a diet than leucine. I don’t remember the details, but yeah, probably super useful with daily doses.

I got lazy because I feel like people don't ever care for or read my walls of texts with study links and now you ask for it.

I don't know of any specific citrulline vs leucine in that regard (humans and preserving muscle during a cut), but there are some studies in rats versus leucine and non-essential amino acid blends.

The second one is interesting because (and there are a few other studies I believe) shows possible benefits through different actions:

Our findings clearly demonstrated that both CIT and LEU were able to stimulate MPS, but this effect was likely related to the nitrogen load. LEU, CIT and NEAA may have different actions on MPS in this model as they share different mTORC1 regulation capacities.

Research isn't as strong in humans (currently), but considering some of the performance benefits (being with daily dosing as well) it is a nice "potential" cherry on top for benefits.

Maybe not totally relevant in healthy populations, but those in high stress (or situations like the ICU) may find use, since Glutamine is rapidly diminished in these situations (and has shown benefit in lots of these studies) and Glutamine is a precursor of Citrulline (depletion of Glutamine lowers Citrulline).

Do those mushrooms under ingredient "Peak02" contribute to pump/bloodflow or just focus and endurance like they are normally marketed as?
View attachment 236680

I wouldn't expect major changes in blood flow in the sense that it will likely directly increase NO or pumps in that kind of action, but (and I keep getting too lazy to try to dive into in that pump thread) without getting too technical it will help in a roundabout way. PeakO2 increases oxygen utilization and blood flow and part of the pump is literally just the body trying to provide more oxygen to the muscles for use, so I find it helps increase bloodflow and your ability to work longer. You may find less "burn" or that the burn takes longer to accumulate, but for me that seems to mean I get more actual blood flow and "pump" BEFORE I get hindered, if that makes sense. Trying not to be too technical.

 

[Jeremyk1]

I got lazy because I feel like people don't ever care for or read my walls of texts with study links and now you ask for it.

Dude, I would read all of it and then some if I had more time. I haven’t linked anything myself, I rarely do. That’s the biggest thing I miss about working at GNC. I ran the most painfully slow store in Indiana. Literally, I’d average like 10 customers a day in our busier seasons. During winter, I had a few times there would be like 40 for the week. But I had so much free time, I read constantly. I learned so much about supplements, but it wasn’t related to the job at all. It actually made me care less and less because I realized how much better stuff was out there. But yeah, I love reading.

 

[Jeremyk1]

Found it. I think this is probably the most relevant part. Rat study, but still cool.

“The researchers put female rats on a two-week diet, during which they were given sixty percent of the food they'd eat if they were allowed to eat as much as they wanted. The table below shows this reduced the fat mass by a statistically significant amount [Control restricted] when compared with the rats that ate as much as they wanted [Basal control].


However, if the rats were given a dose of 1 g L-citrulline per kg bodyweight orally [R-CIT 1] before going to sleep, they retained slightly more muscle mass. The effect was not statistically significant, though. Administration of a similar amount of L-leucine - this was mixed with the rats' feed - had less effect on the muscle mass [R-LEU].”

-Ergo-Log

 

[Resolve10]

Found it. I think this is probably the most relevant part. Rat study, but still cool.

“The researchers put female rats on a two-week diet, during which they were given sixty percent of the food they'd eat if they were allowed to eat as much as they wanted. The table below shows this reduced the fat mass by a statistically significant amount [Control restricted] when compared with the rats that ate as much as they wanted [Basal control].


However, if the rats were given a dose of 1 g L-citrulline per kg bodyweight orally [R-CIT 1] before going to sleep, they retained slightly more muscle mass. The effect was not statistically significant, though. Administration of a similar amount of L-leucine - this was mixed with the rats' feed - had less effect on the muscle mass [R-LEU].”

-Ergo-Log

Ya that is the first study I linked.

There is other stuff related to other health markers too, lots of interesting stuff, but I don't want to get too off topic.

 

[J-Test]

L-citrulline and creatine combined are the $hit.

Best non-stim PWO for me is the combo of L-Cit Malate, Creatine, and Triton. Especially the Triton. Triton is beast with or without anything else.

 

[AwakeningAlpha]

L-citrulline and creatine combined are the $hit.

Best non-stim PWO for me is the combo of L-Cit Malate, Creatine, and Triton. Especially the Triton. Triton is beast with or without anything else.

How do you dose the Triton? I typically do 5 pumps 1-2 hrs PWO alongside Epichaos, Ursa and Flashpoint. I haven't dosed the Triton alone but I think I feel things like epicatechin and citruline more(have done those alone) "beast" as a PWO/Pump product. I believe there is a benefit(ATP effect etc), but want to know if higher doses or different timing etc might sell me further on its Pump or Energy/Endurance add. Thanks!

 

[J-Test]

I use 5’ish pumps of Triton PWO. I use Epichaos at night or first thing in AM, 10 pumps on that, never have used it PWO. Have never really ‘felt’ Epichaos. I’ve noticed when I use it consistently people are like “Man you look good” same thing with Ursa.

Triton is far less acute and more of running heavy in the background. It’s like “holy **** I was tired af when I got here but I’m still going, the more I lift the less tired I’m feeling the more I lift definitely the triton” it’s a quiet, low key power-up. Not like a Stanogen/epiandro.

similar effect from the creatine + l-citrulline combo but there’s something about Triton. I’ve ran it solo and had the same effect achieved with creatine and l-cit. the three together are a trifecta of madness. This is all anecdotal and could be placebo. I’m ordering more triton now on my subscription

 

[J-Test]

@AwakeningAlpha

 

[J-Test]

Nah not placebo at all. Just not trying to sound like I’m shilling. Also, I don’t drink caffeine at all so I’m very aware of how different things make me ‘feel’

 

[AwakeningAlpha]

Nah not placebo at all. Just not trying to sound like I’m shilling. Also, I don’t drink caffeine at all so I’m very aware of how different things make me ‘feel’

Cool thanks for your answer. I like running all of it together so I was wondering what Triton was contributing. Pumps not as much but "less acute and more of running heavy in the background" and more workout energy/endurance makes sense. Definitely not a shill. I'm also going to try 10 pumps of Epichaos.

 

[grovemule]

Trying a new pre this morning. Good profile. Beyond Raw LIT AF. Anybody heard of it or have used it?

 

[GQdaLEGEND]

CEL super swole + Creatine HCL has been pretty awesome for me

Superswole only on workout days .. and HCL everyday
Would love to add some MCC in there as well.

 

[mase1]

I'm a big fan of mcc, loved the old controlled labs product with it.

 

[sns8778]

I'm a big fan of mcc, loved the old controlled labs product with it.

We have our MCC powder back in production now so we should have it back available within the next month or so.

 

[LeanEngineer]

I'm a big fan of mcc, loved the old controlled labs product with it.

Same here. I miss some of the old CL products!

 

[JayNY2Fla]

We have our MCC powder back in production now so we should have it back available within the next month or so.

What exactly is MCC powder and what are its benefits ?

 

[Jeremyk1]

What exactly is MCC powder and what are its benefits ?

Magnesium creatine chelate. Also known by the brand name MagnaPower. Literally creatine bonded to magnesium. Sold by Albion, one of the premier mineral companies out there. There’s research showing improvements in power output over creatine on its own. Better absorption, less bloating.

 

[JayNY2Fla]

Magnesium creatine chelate. Also known by the brand name MagnaPower. Literally creatine bonded to magnesium. Sold by Albion, one of the premier mineral companies out there. There’s research showing improvements in power output over creatine on its own. Better absorption, less bloating.

Ty bro. And thanks for the extra details. I always been a fan of Creatine HCL Would you say it’s better ?

 

[sns8778]

Ty bro. And thanks for the extra details. I always been a fan of Creatine HCL Would you say it’s better ?

We make Creatine HCI and Magnesium Creatine Chelate.

Magnesium Creatine Chelate has been out of stock, but should be back in within the next month.

I don't think that there's a clear cut thing where one is better than the other, as one person may like one better and the next person may like the other one better.

The only scenario where I would say that one is necessarily better is that I do think Magnesium Creatine Chelate may be better for explosive strength output - so people using it for more athletic aspects like football, boxing, MMA, etc. may like that benefit of it.