PH's that supposedly add LBM while cutting, confused. Science please!

[rambofireball]

Hey all,

Personal history:

I'm 22, 5'8", 160 lbs, been lifting since I was 16. Lift 2-4x/w and cardio 2-4x/w, depending on current program. My personal situation in physical development is unique in that I had a brain tumor for most of my life (recently taken out) which kept my endogenous testosterone in the borderline dangerously low level and growth hormone almost non existent. I've been prescribed GH in the past to squeeze out what little height potential I had left (age 17), and was on low dose GH replacement for a number of months last year, but my tumor began to grow rapidly so I stopped the GH and had surgery. I have been on TRT since last July, and experimented with supraphysiological doses (after extensive research) for two short cycles, 6 and 8 weeks @ 300mg/w and 500mg/w. Everything so far has been doc prescribed except the higher cycle doses. I definitely enjoyed the higher dose, and have been researching a kickstart for my next go. At this point I've got two bottles of halo extreme, going to use one as the kickstart. I have never used an oral before, so I figured halodrol was a good moderate place to start, if I like it I'll probably stick with Iron Mag Labs and move on up to Super-DMZ for next time. I'll be staying away from progesterone based compounds and anything more estrogenic than test, due to a very small danger of aggravating what may be left of the tumor, I have anastrozole on hand if any estrogenic sides appear during a test cycle.

QUESTION:

I have a question regarding some claims I've been reading about certain pro-hormones. Many pro-hormone manufacturers claim that their product will undoubtedly help add lean mass while simultaneously dropping fat. Some examples; halodrol, superdrol, dmz, orastan-e etc. This doesn't quite add up to me. The basic dogma is that you are either in a catabolic or anabolic state, right? either burning off some sort of mass, LBM or adipose, or building some sort of mass... right? SO, how is it that a substance will enable you to achieve both simultaneously, and what the hell do you have to do to achieve this besides popping some pills? I've always been told that building/burning mass was dependent on calories consumed vs. cals used, and only one is possible at a time.

I know that many people follow recomp methods and have had success with them. But I'm under the impression that recomps are usually a very long and slow process. and I've read plenty of logs where people have claimed to have dropped fat and built muscle at ridiculous speeds while using these products, and I'm not doubting they did, I just want to know how the hell this is possible.

Is it just that these substances are non-aromatizable/non-progesterone based, so they will support LBM maintenance during a cut without adding momentary bloat etc? not actually enhancing fat loss?

Please feel free to drop any knowledge you have that I seem to be missing.

Scientific theory/explanation and real world knowledge both appreciated. Much thanks.

 

[jbryand101b]

anabolism needs energy to build.

in order to get this energy, the body must use catabolic hormones in order to break things down for energy.

under most circumstances, you will using your oxidative energy system primarily. this is where you use fat for energy.

you need energy to keep the anabolic process going, and it has to come from somewhere.

oh shiit, man, so much info for this, i dont know where to start. does this make sense?

 

[MattPorter]

Steroids work for increasing anabolism during catabolic phases (caloric restriction).

Steroids will increase nitrogen retention, protein synthetic response, and lower cortisol.

Supply the body with HIGH nutrient dense macros with lower calories and you can grow, while oxidizing fat for fuel and other energy demanding activities ie breathing, sleeping, thinking oh the work...

-Matt

 

[rambofireball]

Ok,

So, in my own words, you are both pretty much saying that introducing the extra androgens to somebody in a calorie deficit will simply force the body to create energy through fat oxidation rather than breaking down muscle for the required energy to 'breathe, sleep, etc'. At the same time, the body is being forced to use more energy to build muscle tissue as an adaptation to training, and that is also coming from fat stores if said person is in a calorie deficit.

Thus, chemically enhanced recomp.

Yes?

 

[jbryand101b]

pretty much, you will also need energy to break down the nutrients you are eating so they can be used to build muscle, which also requires energy.

 

[MattPorter]

Remember you can ALSO get by with eating more than your "non hormonally enhanced deficit" and STILL lose fat and gain muscle because your metabolic rate is more efficient.

AAS do amazing things when you supply the body with high density nutrition that are relatively low in overall calories.

-Matt

 

[heavylifter33]

Steroids work for increasing anabolism during catabolic phases (caloric restriction).

Steroids will increase nitrogen retention, protein synthetic response, and lower cortisol.

Supply the body with HIGH nutrient dense macros with lower calories and you can grow, while oxidizing fat for fuel and other energy demanding activities ie breathing, sleeping, thinking oh the work...

-Matt

This is probably the best way it could be said.

 

[Royd The Noyd]

Grow into the show bro

 

[MattPorter]

and that is why "grow into the show" has been working for people and here is why:

You have a "all over the board off-season" meaning, mistimed meals, caloric intake varies, protein good some days, not on others. Poorer quality foods...more processed foods...etc.....

Then you add in your drugs/hormones (whatever term you are comfortable with lol) then you switch to perfectly planned and timed clean macronutrients supplying dense nutrition while supplying less calories than your previous chaotic off-season diet.,

Even though you are eating on a weekly average LESS overall CALORIES...you start holding weight and stripping body fat --- (growing into your bodybuilding contest).

-Matt

 

[jbryand101b]

anabolism: the process of using smaller mollecules to build up larger ones.

catabolism: the process of breaking down larger mollecules into smaller ones to be used as energy

so if you want, fat storage could be considered an anabolic process. then when you need it, you body catabolises the fat cells to be broken down in order to be used as atp.

all of these requires energy, an increased anabolic state will require more total energy demand.

this does not mean you can cut calories, and you body will build muscle from the stored fat.

it means you body will need more atp to build the muscle, where it gets this from will depend on what you are eating, as well as you daily activity level.

 

[Gerbil]

Isnt the reason that blood lipid values get out of whack on cycle because the catabolism of adipose tissue?

anabolism: the process of using smaller mollecules to build up larger ones.

catabolism: the process of breaking down larger mollecules into smaller ones to be used as energy

so if you want, fat storage could be considered an anabolic process. then when you need it, you body catabolises the fat cells to be broken down in order to be used as atp.

all of these requires energy, an increased anabolic state will require more total energy demand.

this does not mean you can cut calories, and you body will build muscle from the stored fat.

it means you body will need more atp to build the muscle, where it gets this from will depend on what you are eating, as well as you daily activity level.

 

[Gym4Life]

Steroids work for increasing anabolism during catabolic phases (caloric restriction).

Steroids will increase nitrogen retention, protein synthetic response, and lower cortisol.

Supply the body with HIGH nutrient dense macros with lower calories and you can grow, while oxidizing fat for fuel and other energy demanding activities ie breathing, sleeping, thinking oh the work...

-Matt

Can you bring a new product out that does this like supertest and super growth hormone in liquidvade and you can call it superadro anabolic growth

 

[jbryand101b]

I think blood lipid valuse go out of whack because everything else is out of whack d/t dosing supraphysiological dosages of androgens.

 

[rambofireball]

anabolism: the process of using smaller mollecules to build up larger ones.

catabolism: the process of breaking down larger mollecules into smaller ones to be used as energy

so if you want, fat storage could be considered an anabolic process. then when you need it, you body catabolises the fat cells to be broken down in order to be used as atp.

all of these requires energy, an increased anabolic state will require more total energy demand.

this does not mean you can cut calories, and you body will build muscle from the stored fat.

it means you body will need more atp to build the muscle, where it gets this from will depend on what you are eating, as well as you daily activity level.

Ok, yeah that totally makes sense. I knew that fat couldn't be turned into muscle, which is one reason why I was so confused about the crazy fast recomp people claim to achieve with some substances, I didn't realize the extra energy needed to feed the muscle building process could consume fat when chemically enhanced. Of course it seems super obvious now haha.

Thank you all for sharing some knowledge!

 

[MattPorter]

This thread represents the beauty and awesomeness of anabolic hormones.

-matt

 

[MattPorter]

Can you bring a new product out that does this like supertest and super growth hormone in liquidvade and you can call it superadro anabolic growth

I don't see why you cannot do this on AndroHard or Androlean? I saw kenneth Nance (a beta tester for hard) pretty much stay at 195 lbs but lose 4% BF in 6 weeks.....

He gained in a deficit.

-matt