Optimizing Havoc/epistane pct without a SERM

[Baby]

Is this even a possibility? Where I'm from the only way to get a SERM is to: get a prescription, bring it abroad or buy it from a friend. The customs are amazingly strict here so I can't order it online.

I'm planning on running havoc (RPN) with androtest (Fusion supps) for 4-6 weeks (I've got 2 bottles)

For possible PCT products I've got

OG erase
Trans resveratrol
6-bromo
Lean Xtreme
DAA
Formestane
XI-KT
AD-3 PCT
Mass HGH
Maca powder
7-keto
Clenbuterol
X-factor
Horny Goat weed

Do you think there's a way to get around a SERM with all dat? My main concern is my test levels.

With DAA, Trans resveratrol, maca, L-dopa and arimistane could I restore my test? Can I use arimistane straight after cycle? It doesn't shut me down right? After these I'd run 7-keto (only for 7 days) and if I'd get any gyno symptoms I'd hit myself with erase. Lean Xtreme throughout all of this.

The other stuff is just there if you guys think I could make use of it during the pct.

If I were to do this, what would be the main issue caused by the lack of SERM?

 

[Baby]

Anyone? I'm also taking 15g curcumin + 15g ginger daily. Gonna stop this for the duration of the cycle and continue during pct.

 

[mgkoret]

I know a guy that works with me that Ran 2 epi cycles, and epi halo cycle, and now DMZ 3.0

He runs Estro Strike, Dhea, DIM, Beast Test, Yohimbi, Trib, and Maca. He hasnt had a symptom of gyno yet. With all that, you can chance it. but I dont see a big worry with what you got. Lots of guys will say otherwise. BUt it depends on how sensitive you are.

and with epi, the real concearn is rebound. And alot of times that rebound comes from the SERM. So you may be in the clear with epi

 

[Abe Lincoln]

What do you live in Australia... SERM is still best bet.

 

[mgkoret]

What do you live in Australia... SERM is still best bet.

agreed, still the best regardless.

 

[Baby]

That's a given, but I truly have no access to them. So I take it then that you think it is possible to recover fully and keep some of my gains even without? So the supps I mentioned at the end of the first post seem adequate and no use adding the other stuff I've got?

If gyno is my biggest issue, I'm not worried. Based on what I've read I don't think getting one is likely and even if I got one I can go to a specialist who'll prescribe me with some clomid/nolva/etc.. I'm more worried about my balls since some guys have gotten totally shut down from epi (higher doses though).

Is any SERM the absolute cream of the crop for test, LH (not a concern on epi I've heard) and FSH recovery or is it just the best because it combines manboob prevention and hormone recovery?

 

[mgkoret]

Clomid basically jump starts the production of free t in the junk. Yeah you can roll start an old car if you had to. It takes a long time and sucks but eventually itll hopefully start. But isnt it a whole lot faster and easier to use jumper cables?? Same analogy goes for the use of a serm.
Is it possible to fully recover without a serm? Yes, people do it. It takes longer to reach homeostasis and has been shown to work better than OTC products. It does not guarentee restart or gyno prevention, but the odds are alot better with using one than without one
I think your product will allowna recovery. For you in your situation its the best option you got unless you find a cool doc that will write you an RX.
Where do you live??

 

[Baby]

I'm from Finland. I know a lot of you think everything is readily available in europe, but it's not the same in every country. If I were to travel somewhere central europe or Russia then sure, I could get ANYTHING I'd ever want no prob. Mailing stuff is the issue.

The docs here won't do that unless they actually see lowered hormone levels or a gyno. Even then they might prescribe me with something ridiculous like TRT.

Thanks for the reassurance. I thought nolva/tamoxifen was the best T-boosters of the SERMS? No?

Also I've done a cycle of XI-KT in the past without serm, since even Patrick Arnold says you don't need a thing. It's not supposed to be suppressive but I seriously doubt it until I see some bloodwork... If it were actually totally non-suppressive it would be a dream come true for the bodybuilding community. Should be mild anyways. I used a similar regime of products that I've got now. Made some great gains in strength and recovered no prob.

What do you think of bridging out of the cycle with a small dose of XI-KT (11-ketotest)? Should help me maintain gains while allowing a slow test production recovery. Or do you think it would just suppress me even further and make this cycle totally impossible without a SERM. 11-oxo bridging used to be a fad thingy so I thought 11-ketotest should work in a similar fashion or better.

 

[stann123]

Clomid basically jump starts the production of free t in the junk. Yeah you can roll start an old car if you had to. It takes a long time and sucks but eventually itll hopefully start. But isnt it a whole lot faster and easier to use jumper cables?? Same analogy goes for the use of a serm.
Is it possible to fully recover without a serm? Yes, people do it. It takes longer to reach homeostasis and has been shown to work better than OTC products. It does not guarentee restart or gyno prevention, but the odds are alot better with using one than without one
I think your product will allowna recovery. For you in your situation its the best option you got unless you find a cool doc that will write you an RX.
Where do you live??

Like you said hell recover with or without a serm, it might just take longer. But his main problem will most likely be avoiding gyno with just otc products

 

[Baby]

YOU WERE RIGHT stann123. This is too much, I'm not gonna see this through.

I'm on my 6th day and I feel like I gotta stop. I made another thread about erect nipples, which I've had for a few days now, along with a slight burning sensation. Now there is MAYBE something behind my left nipple. I don't know. All I know is that I'm freaking out too much and it just is not worth it.

I've been running Havoc with 30mg for 6 days. How should I stop and what products should I use? I've been running formasurge for the last couple of days and I'm thinking of starting AD-3 PCT today (arimistane + mucuna pruriens). What else should I take?

How should havoc be tapered down? Can I just stop it alltogether with the help of AI's or should I taper it down dosing 20mg today and 10mg tomorrow? Even slower?

I also have some fusion supplements Androtest and XI-KT. As gyno is related to too low levels of estrogens in relation to androgens, could I possibly help myself by starting these with a small dose and tapering them down in 1 week while getting all sorts of test boosters at max dose?

HELP

 

[mgkoret]

YOU WERE RIGHT stann123. This is too much, I'm not gonna see this through. I'm on my 6th day and I feel like I gotta stop. I made another thread about erect nipples, which I've had for a few days now, along with a slight burning sensation. Now there is MAYBE something behind my left nipple. I don't know. All I know is that I'm freaking out too much and it just is not worth it. I've been running Havoc with 30mg for 6 days. How should I stop and what products should I use? I've been running formasurge for the last couple of days and I'm thinking of starting AD-3 PCT today (arimistane + mucuna pruriens). What else should I take? How should havoc be tapered down? Can I just stop it alltogether with the help of AI's or should I taper it down dosing 20mg today and 10mg tomorrow? Even slower? I also have some fusion supplements Androtest and XI-KT. As gyno is related to too low levels of estrogens in relation to androgens, could I possibly help myself by starting these with a small dose and tapering them down in 1 week while getting all sorts of test boosters at max dose? HELP

Woh woh woh slow down 6 days havoc? There's shouldn't have been any change that's early in anything. And deaf not at 30mg Make sure this isn't all in your head bro. Epi takes 3 weeks to kick in. If you jump off just stop the Epi, jump on pct. Gyno happens because of excess e2 levels. Epi doesn't aromatize. You could have had puberty Gyno already and never paid attention to it or you're freaking yourself out. Take a chill pill and assess. Very doubtful this is from the aas.

 

[warbird01]

"Erect" nipples doesn't mean anything lol

 

[Abe Lincoln]

"Erect" nipples doesn't mean anything lol

Must be cold out