noobie help again

[lennoxchi]

I need some help in the way of PCT info and i see after reading all the threads that this is the place to ask this, I've made the decision to cycle promagon-25(my 1st cycle), but I've been reading all I can about the proper way to use PCT's and at this point I'm more confused then when I started getting info. I've looked @ the following (rebound XL, PCT by A.I., Retain, cycle support, inhibit-E and rebound reloaded). My cycle will last 4 weeks and I would like to keep what I gain and more importantly NOT screw myself up along the way..noobies i suppose are good @ doing that...so I ask ?'s when i don't know. I'm 6'1" 185lbs. 30 yrs. old, weight train 6 to 8 hours a week, eat as often as i can ( 2000-3500 cals)200 g. protein, keeping close eye on sugar and fat comsuption. I've got a lot to learn before taking anything like this and i need info...also i forgot to mention i've got Nolvadex...i need info on when and what to take..i.e. during cycle, last day of cycle and so on........please make this specific for me or point me in the right direction....please:blink:

 

[RedwolfWV]

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/post-cycle-therapy/

 

[wrkn4bigrmusles]

and then readthis

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/44306-before-going-cycle.html

 

[ripped22]

you need to eat more. one of my shakes is 1300 calories. i have three of thoes a day plus four solid food meals. to get big you have to eat big 2000 calories will not cut it. 3500 would yeid some gains but to break into the 200's you better learn to eat more.

as far as pct for prog 25 i would just use your nolva at 20 mg for a few weeks. a few guys i know used prog 25 and gained about 5-7 lean pound on average. the stuff seemed fairly mild as far as shutdown was concerned.

good luck

 

[lennoxchi]

Thanks guys..............

 

[joebo]

6'1" at 185lbs. I would take a closer look at your diet and training before jumping into steroids.

 

[PumpingIron]

you need to eat more. one of my shakes is 1300 calories. i have three of thoes a day plus four solid food meals. to get big you have to eat big 2000 calories will not cut it. 3500 would yeid some gains but to break into the 200's you better learn to eat more.

as far as post cycle therapy for prog 25 i would just use your nolva at 20 mg for a few weeks. a few guys i know used prog 25 and gained about 5-7 lean pound on average. the stuff seemed fairly mild as far as shutdown was concerned.

good luck

You think running nolva at 20mgs for a few weeks is suitable for a P25 cycle PCT?

Please tell me more...

 

[ripped22]

You think running nolva at 20mgs for a few weeks is suitable for a P25 cycle post cycle therapy?

Please tell me more...

what do you want to know more about? yeah you could do 40/30/20/10 and add a couple more support supps......is it absolutely needed, no. so to answer your question, yes i do think it is suitable to run nolvadex at 20 mg/ 4 weeks as a proper post cycle therapy.

 

[PumpingIron]

what do you want to know more about? yeah you could do 40/30/20/10 and add a couple more support supps......is it absolutely needed, no. so to answer your question, yes i do think it is suitable to run nolvadex at 20 mg/ 4 weeks as a proper post cycle therapy.

can you back this up?

 

[lennoxchi]

what do you recommed about gaining weight? I have a hard time gaining...comsumeing cyto-gainer 4 times a day and eating when ever i am humgry....again just keeping an eye on fat and sugar, to keep them low.....the weight just won't budge.....i stopped doing cardo just to see what will happen...that was 2 weeks ago..so still monitoring that.....

 

[ripped22]

can you back this up?

yeah, i can with REAL life experience. from watching people i KNOW use this drug and use nolva alone to recover successfully at the mentioned dose. so whatever it is your trying to say,say it like a man, instead of like some wormy little puke hiding behind rhetorical questions.

not trying to be a **** so please don't treat me like one.

 

[ripped22]

what do you recommend about gaining weight? I have a hard time gaining...comsumeing cyto-gainer 4 times a day and eating when ever i am humgry....again just keeping an eye on fat and sugar, to keep them low.....the weight just won't budge.....i stopped doing cardo just to see what will happen...that was 2 weeks ago..so still monitoring that.....

have you counted your calories? if so how many do you consistently consume daily? I would try to get more solid foods and cut out one or two of those shakes. Don't be afraid of fat if you have a high metabolism. i never started gaining weight until i got high levels of good fats along with moderate doses of saturated fat. Protein should be at least 200 grams a day which i assume you are getting with all that cyto-gainer. Another trick that i learned a while ago that has really helped me are raw eggs. You can easily eat 12 eggs a day when raw. don't be afraid of this the risks are overblown and the benefits are high. you WILL see improvements if you get more real food in your diet and less shakes.

 

[bpmartyr]

Really, your body will recover and reach a hormonal balance all on it's own without drugs. Is it recommended? No, as doing so will most likely yield negative to no overall gains from the cycle inception. Our bodies can be a bit slow to recover when left unassisted and extended periods of low/imbalalanced hormones are not desireable for a body builder or fitness enthusiast. 20 mg Nolva may very well be just fine for recovery, especially for a short oral cycle. In my experience it is the long and/or highly suppressive cycles that are harder/longer to recover from. If you can get by with 20, why go higher? Nolva has a level of toxicity and more is not alway better. There is really not a lot of science behind this guys. Most of what we preach as gospel is based off trial and error along with recommendation of those in the "know". That being said, sometimes feathers get a little ruffled when someone recommends a protocol outside of accepted wisdom of the "click".

Take care

 

[lennoxchi]

thx...i think you're right....getting more solids might be the way to go...instead of shakes.....and on the go snacks...i'll give it a try.......i can save the pro-25 til a later date anyway.....more reasearch is needed anyhow....but thx for the advise....i'll get there...if you know what i mean.

 

[ripped22]

Really, your body will recover and reach a hormonal balance all on it's own without drugs. Is it recommended? No, as doing so will most likely yield negative to no overall gains from the cycle inception. Our bodies can be a bit slow to recover when left unassisted and extended periods of low/imbalalanced hormones are not desireable for a body builder or fitness enthusiast. 20 mg Nolva may very well be just fine for recovery, especially for a short oral cycle. In my experience it is the long and/or highly suppressive cycles that are harder/longer to recover from. If you can get by with 20, why go higher? Nolva has a level of toxicity and more is not alway better. There is really not a lot of science behind this guys. Most of what we preach as gospel is based off trial and error along with recommendation of those in the "know". That being said, sometimes feathers get a little ruffled when someone recommends a protocol outside of accepted wisdom of the "click".

Take care

very good post. if i was more patient i would have stated my point exactly this way. i think it will be recieved a little better coming from a guy with your rep on this board. i just happen to like a steady low dose of nolva throughout pct. i feel the 10mg in week four is a little low. its just a matter of preference and the way i suggested has worked well for me and my gym associates.

good luck guys

 

[getreal]

you need to eat more. one of my shakes is 1300 calories. i have three of thoes a day plus four solid food meals. to get big you have to eat big 2000 calories will not cut it. 3500 would yeid some gains but to break into the 200's you better learn to eat more.

as far as post cycle therapy for prog 25 i would just use your nolva at 20 mg for a few weeks. a few guys i know used prog 25 and gained about 5-7 lean pound on average. the stuff seemed fairly mild as far as shutdown was concerned.

good luck

How do i work out how much I eat in a day, I also eat 4 solids a day with shakes inbetween, but i just dont know how to calculate it.

 

[ripped22]

look on the back of your food and read the nutrition value. it will tell you calories,fat, and protein. do this to everything you eat and write it down and add it up. you will be suprised at how little calories you are actually getting. another way is to go to fitday.com, they have a food calculator that will do it for you. all foods are on here including fast food.

 

[PumpingIron]

Ripped, wasn't trying to be a ****, i was honestly and truthfully curious if you could show me some clinical evidence that 20 mgs for a few weeks would work as well as the norm 40/40/20/20 protocol...

didnt mean to ruffle feathers...



getreal, use fitday.com

it'll help you with the diet part of bodybuilding.

 

[ripped22]

Ripped, wasn't trying to be a ****, i was honestly and truthfully curious if you could show me some clinical evidence that 20 mgs for a few weeks would work as well as the norm 40/40/20/20 protocol...

didn't mean to ruffle feathers...



getreal, use fitday.com

it'll help you with the diet part of bodybuilding.

no problem bro. i get a little upset when my advice is questioned, or what seemed like, mocked. i do not recommend something unless i, or others close to me, have tried it with success. sorry, i have no clinical evidence that shows "20 mgs for a few weeks would work as well as the norm 40/40/20/20 protocol" but i highly doubt you could find sound evidence to the contrary. with that being said there IS evidence that shows tamoxifen is toxic to the liver and should be used sparingly. i feel unless signs of gyno are present there is really no need to go above 20 mg. its my opinion and should be treated as such. just like 90% of everything you read on these boards.

 

[jomi822]

Ripped, wasn't trying to be a ****, i was honestly and truthfully curious if you could show me some clinical evidence that 20 mgs for a few weeks would work as well as the norm 40/40/20/20 protocol...

didnt mean to ruffle feathers...



getreal, use fitday.com

it'll help you with the diet part of bodybuilding.

i have seen post cycle therapy protocols outlined by Anthony Roberts where the highest tamoxifen dose he uses is 20mgs (in conjunction with aromasin). He also states he believes less could probably be used.

personally i would simply stick with the high dose. people make it sound like taking 40mgs of tamoxifen for a week will kill you. women take this stuff for years, and when the drug initially was being tested i believe 40mgs a day was one of the test dosages.

personally ill stick with toremifene. completely blows tamoxifen out of the water pct-wise.

 

[ripped22]

i have seen post cycle therapy protocols outlined by Anthony Roberts where the highest tamoxifen dose he uses is 20mgs (in conjunction with aromasin). He also states he believes less could probably be used.

personally i would simply stick with the high dose. people make it sound like taking 40mgs of tamoxifen for a week will kill you. women take this stuff for years, and when the drug initially was being tested i believe 40mgs a day was one of the test dosages.

personally ill stick with toremifene. completely blows tamoxifen out of the water post cycle therapy-wise.

was thinking of trying toremifene my next pct. what are the significant differences that made you switch from nolva.

 

[jomi822]

was thinking of trying toremifene my next post cycle therapy. what are the significant differences that made you switch from nolva.

well the reason people started using it is because the research shows its better at improving lipid values after a cycle along with significantly less liver toxicity than tamoxifen.

i recover a signficant amount of testicle size, libido, and ejaculation quantity after only 1 week on a nolva/chlomid combo (on my cycles so far), but toremifene caused them to grow so quickly it actually hurt. i have never recovered so quickly before. by day 2 i was shooting peter north sized loads and scaring the **** out of my girlfriend. the stuff is just ridiculous, my libido was absolutely out of control, even worse than high school.

i did a log on it....do a seach for toremifene

 

[PumpingIron]

Yea, everything I've heard of torm makes me want to use it next winter...

 

[lennoxchi]

thanks to all....this helps me extremly....and i'ts occuried to me that the more research i do here...is all the better for me. thx again