Anyone ever run cycles without a test base? Public opinion says you always need a test base. During the golden era of bodybuilding guys didn’t use testosterone (at least Arny didn’t). So why is it mandatory now?
Because some time back it was made a "must". I think ppl should but with real test. There have been plenty of successful cycles without it. I've done it myself but it definitely makes a difference in how you feel. I can run hdrol no test, dbol no test, eq no test. All were experiment but test is bestAnyone ever run cycles without a test base? Public opinion says you always need a test base. During the golden era of bodybuilding guys didn’t use testosterone (at least Arny didn’t). So why is it mandatory now?
I'm almost positive that Test was available back then.It's pretty much the standard rule around here in order to keep libido, prevent lethargy etc. But you're right, they didn't use test bases back in the day and the steroids certainly seemed to work for them. My guess would be that it can be very much person dependent. Some people may be able to tolerate cycles with no test base. I think it probably depends on the cycle too. Some are more suppressive than others. But can you run proviron or MENT instead? I don't see why not but maybe more people can chime in and give you a better answer.
I've heard people say that they didn't use test back in the day because it wasn't available.. but how is that possible? Didn't they still have some sort of TRT even back then? Wasn't methyltestosterone being used even before then for low testosterone?
I've definitely read that none of them used test back then. I never really got a good answer as to why though. Most of them just say that is wasn't accessible, but I don't understand how that is possible.I'm almost positive that Test was available back then.
Did Arnold say he did not use Test??
You ever see what Arnold's protein shake looked like? If I remember correctly, he basically just put the kitchen in a blender.Test bases tend to add to a cycle, in many ways. Theres so many available. Why wouldnt you run one?
People used to get by without using preworkouts or protein shakes either.
HTH
Ugh, Ive tried sh1t like that, too thickYou ever see what Arnold's protein shake looked like? If I remember correctly, he basically just put the kitchen in a blender.
When I was younger I tried the supposed protein shake he drank. I got the recipe somewhere online so who even knows if it was even legit, but I remember it was a bunch of milk, ice cream, bananas, peanut butter, etc etc etc. Sounds tasty but it was the worst 4000 calories I ever had.Ugh, Ive tried sh1t like that, too thick
Great info. I believe proviron can also be used as a test base, as someone mentioned above. This could be a good option for anyone who doesn’t pin for whatever reason.There are 2 sides to the test is best coin
Side 1: Maintain energy, libido on longer cycles. Additional gains from the added hormones.
Side 2: You will be shut down more when you come off due to the increased amount of androgens, therefore making it harder to recover and making you feel worse and lose more gains during your PCT.
Its a double edged sword; that said, I think on longer cycles (longer than 4) I would prefer to have a test base, trestolone is another very viable option however will make recovery afterwards even more difficult because your testosterone production will be even more suppressed.
Dbol was the "test base" of the old school bodybuilders, it seems. It aromatises, 5A reduces, and basically gives your body everything test would, correct me if I'm wrong. I wouldn't be scared to run Dbol 12 weeks solo. With a SERM of course to limit-eliminate suppression.
For a 4-6 week PH cycle, I probably wouldn't worry about test, just a SERM. Once you get into pinning test, its pointless to run 4 to 6 weeks cycles in my opinion because that's when the test starts really kicking in. When yo start pinning test, IT should be your main cycle compound with the oral used to "kickstart" the gains.
But if youre worried about your test levels tanking and feeling lethargic, and don't want to do test, I'd just run clomid at 25mg/day throughout the cycle, ramping up to a max of 50mg if you notice nutt shrinkage.
That's just one of many takes on this subject.
Yes proviron would help with energy and libido, you would have to watch it with a dry compound however as your estrogen levels would tank. Your SERM should keep estrogen level in check though. I don't see any reason no to run one during ANY cycle.Great info. I believe proviron can also be used as a test base, as someone mentioned above. This could be a good option for anyone who doesn’t pin for whatever reason.
it depends what you run, how long, and how bad the sides are... I've personally run a few cycles of dry ph's without and had minimal issues (some lethargy but nothing intolerable)... very much "personal preference".Anyone ever run cycles without a test base? Public opinion says you always need a test base. During the golden era of bodybuilding guys didn’t use testosterone (at least Arny didn’t). So why is it mandatory now?
Yeah on another forum, he mentioned how DMZ especially will crush your estro levels...and how running an AI while on cycle with DMZ is not a good idea.I think it CAN be from s combo. For instance, a dry compound alone will kill your test levels, and estrogen namely. You will feel off with no estrogen. And then compound toxicity can play a part at the same time, making you feel worse.
But I agree, the majority of the time it Is likely the compounds' toxicity making you feel ill, for the most part. Seems like wet compounds tend to make you feel better than dry compounds though. Could have something to do with estrogen.
Not really familiar with 4andro, or dermacrine, sorry. So you're running DMZ solo? For how long?Yeah on another forum, he mentioned how DMZ especially will crush your estro levels...and how running an AI while on cycle with DMZ is not a good idea.
Maybe i should buy some 4andro and run that, wouldn't that raise estrogen levels a bit? And if so, THEN would i need to run an AI on cycle to level things out a bit? Decisions decisions...
I was planning on running Dermacrine and Stano200 caps, but not sure how that will effect my estrogen levels (if at all). Stano dries you out, correct...but what about Dermacrine...might just leave the Stano out on this cycle.
32mg for 4 weeks, possibly 5 weeks if sides aren't too bad. I haven't run anything in a few years, so hopefully I will respond well...Not really familiar with 4andro, or dermacrine, sorry. So you're running DMZ solo? For how long?
Why dermacrine instead of trest? Made me feel like a king32mg for 4 weeks, possibly 5 weeks if sides aren't too bad. I haven't run anything in a few years, so hopefully I will respond well...
Basically just trying to decide on what support supps/test base to use, so many options out there.
I used to always run Stano200 at 800mg a day with my cycle but after searching around and learning how bad DMZ crushes estrogen, I'm thinking maybe no Stano. Ill be running Dermacrine for sure, but not sure about the 4-andro...Or how much to dose.
I cant seem to find any solid info on the conversion rate with 4 andro either...I'm guessing that while it does raise estro a bit, its not a substantial amount. I would really rather avoid running an AI on cycle, I never have in the past, but i don't remember exactly how i responded to DMZ alone.
Trest kinda scares me a bit...though i don't know much about it, other than estro levels are a concern with it. I have no idea where to buy it anyhow, if you can point me in the right direction with basic info and source, it would be most appreciated!Why dermacrine instead of trest? Made me feel like a king
Nothing against pinning, but I'm not quite there yet...I was looking into doing a Test-E cycle (500mg/week) for 10 to 12 weeks, but will probably do it next year after this DMZ cycle. Still in early research for me. Sounds f'n amazing though, and look forward to not having to worry about so many sides that come with PH use!Dermacrine is the weakest test base, and 4-AD only gives you 25-50% of your original test levels. I think a SERM would keep your levels higher than that. Mine was at 450 on a pretty heavy cycle at only 25mg/ day.
Do you have anything against pinning?
I'm probably not the pest person to take advice from as far as these new school designer hormones. All I can say is watch who you are getting info from.... If they are reps, or get their info from reps the info may be exaggerated.Nothing against pinning, but I'm not quite there yet...I was looking into doing a Test-E cycle (possibly 500mg/week) for 10 to 12 weeks, but will probably do it next year after this DMZ cycle. Still in early research for me. Sounds f'n amazing though, and look forward to not having to worry about so many sides that come with PH use!
That said, id rather not pin Trest, at this time...
As far as dermacrine goes, ive heard that it mainly helps with keeping things in balance, nothing major though. If it helps some with keeping my mood in check, then its worth it. Hopefully it helps keep lethargy down, to a degree. Might just run low dosed Stano200 (maybe around 600mg) and also 4-ad...not sure on that dosage though.
One of my main goals with this cycle is to keep things simple. And of course...Ive spun outta control a bit haha.
I might just do DMZ solo for a week and see how the sides are and how i feel, then add other supps as needed. For the life of me, i cant remember my last DMZ run, i know I ran Stano with it...but not sure if I loved that cycle or not.
DMZ is dry I'm pretty sure...? No AI needed. Torem should be enough to counter any rebound related estro sides in PCT. I would do DMZ, torem, and if you can afford it for peace of mine go for dermacrine or something like that. Or TD trestCant run clomid on cycle, for whatever reason, clomid seems to enlarge my prostate a bit...so running it with a PH that most likely already effects the prostate wouldn't be a good idea for me. Sucks.
Thinking about buying some Torem, testing it for a couple days and see how the ol' pee stream is. If all good, ill just run 30mg Torem on cycle.
If i do run torem, would I be able to run 4-ad and DMZ with no worries of estro related side effects on cycle?
Id rather not use an AI on cycle, trying to keep things as simple as possible...I figure the less chemically filled capsules i swallow, the better off my liver is!
Naw man, you've been of great help, especially to trade ideas/info with! Good to see helpful and open minded folks on this forum...some more so than others haha.I'm probably not the pest person to take advice from as far as these new school designer hormones. All I can say is watch who you are getting info from.... If they are reps, or get their info from reps the info may be exaggerated.
You can get transdermal trest form Olympus UK I believe. Probably other UK based companies too. Wish I could help more
I have a theory that some genetically gifted top pros don't shutdown even with huge levels they take. Lee Priest has spoken about not being a fan of Test, having bloods done just after cycle and being fine. Even now after christ knows how much AAS abuse he's not low T (although he is paying the price)Anyone ever run cycles without a test base? Public opinion says you always need a test base. During the golden era of bodybuilding guys didn’t use testosterone (at least Arny didn’t). So why is it mandatory now?
25mg transdermally 3x a day is what ive done. Swear to God that **** is so potent my voice got super deep in like 3 days. People were like, why are you talking like that, lol. Do NOT start without an AI. I want to believe Spurdy that torem will protect you but just in case your body reacts a certain way I would have AI on hand.Naw man, you've been of great help, especially to trade ideas/info with! Good to see helpful and open minded folks on this forum...some more so than others haha.
Ill look in to that transdermal Trest...any idea of a good starting dosage?
...cant wait to do a Test-E cycle! Id rather just jump in to that and skip the PH run...but the lady wont hear of it for now! And ill need her around for the injections
lolAnd lol not te boobz.
If you're trying to avoid Estrogenic type sides, Trest isn't the way to go (although I like it personally). It is one of the worst you'll find in that regard. If DMZ is as dry as stated, Dermacrine would be a great choice (in my opinion). It'll make you feel much better. I used to run it years ago myself.Cant run clomid on cycle, for whatever reason, clomid seems to enlarge my prostate a bit...so running it with a PH that most likely already effects the prostate wouldn't be a good idea for me. Sucks.
Thinking about buying some Torem, testing it for a couple days and see how the ol' pee stream is. If all good, ill just run 30mg Torem on cycle.
If i do run torem, would I be able to run 4-ad and DMZ with no worries of estro related side effects on cycle?
Id rather not use an AI on cycle, trying to keep things as simple as possible...I figure the less chemically filled capsules i swallow, the better off my liver is!
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