alainbballing
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The wierder thing is that Evolutions LAbs basically lists all there products as being for PCT Im not sure how many people will be getting hurt from that
Why the Advanced PCT? It's an over-priced cocktail of a low dose steroidal AI, L-Histadine (come on), and 50mg of a good anti-oxidant 'grapeseed extract... Another flopper by AX.Run arimEvol should not be used in your post cycle therapy... Good legal sub for a serm from what Im hearing is AI's Post Cycle Support, and throw some AX Advance PCT in there and u should be ok ...read the beginning of the thread to see what else u need.and if all else fails use the search function
If u have both use them together instead of doubling PCS. I think that would be awesome, one is oral and one is trans. If one doesn't work the other should LOL I kid.Some times the simplest answer is the way to go...Dont know why i didnt think of just doubling on the post cycle support.. was over thinking the problem if that makes sense..how u feel about adding some Dermacrine Sustain to that mix?
TRT protocols are going to be a lot different than what are being discussed in this thread.
A lot of times I get Q's from people on TRT as prescribed by their doctor. They read up on testosterone and post cycle therapy for anabolic use, and compare to what their doctor has planned out for them. Consequently, they think the doc is full of **** because the two protocols (Doping and TRT) have very little in common.what do you mean by that?
coop
search forHi,
Im new to the Anabolic game, ive been training for around 3 years and recently have been talking to somebody about Epistane, I asked Bodybuilding.com what I needed in the way of support supplements and they recommended Milk Thistle and IDA Post Cycle Tabs, I was worried that I needed more than this but they didn’t want to say because they have to be careful of what they "advise" etc (although they are always very helpful). At the moment I am just taking NO-Xplode, Celltech Hardcore and **** loads of Protein but would like to try Epistane out and move up the ladder some what.
All this information on Anabolics just isn’t available to us in the UK and I really find it hard to digest all the names of things and to understand all the cycle routines and what. I was only going to run Epistane for a month and it comparison to some of the above anabolics mentioned I don’t know how powerful it is and how seriously I need to take the post cycle therapy.
Basically, is Milk Thistle and PC Tabs enough? what brands and products can you recommend for me to take after/during my first cycle with Epistane. Obviously I want to do things right.
Please help the new boy!
Cheers guys!
:fool2:
Let's also start by saying that you don't have to run post cycle therapy.........you also don't have to wipe your ass after taking a dump: it's just a really really good idea to do these things :dump:
The first thing we need to understand is what is going on with our bodies when we're taking anabolic steroids:
Exogeneous anabolic hormones (or derivatives of anabolic hormones) are being brought into your system. This causes the body to take a number of responsive actions. The first and foremost (as you already know) is increased muscle mass. Unfortunately, other things are also going on that aren't so great
When an enzyme or hormone is brought exogeneously into the system, chemical balances shift around to attain a certain equilibrium. This is a chemical concept known as Le Chatelier's Principle of Chemical Equilibria. In a nutshell, your body will increase production of estrogen, cortisol, and other hormones in response to heightened testosterone levels, while simultaneously slowering (or completely stopping) natural production of testosterone. Biologist call this negative feedback.......biology sucks doesn't it?
Le Chatelier's Principle for the scientifically impaired:
Let's pretend A and B react to make C (can't get much simpler than that).
A + B --------> C
So we have a mixture containing A, B, and C. According to LeChatlier's principle, if we add more C to the mixture, the amounts of A and B will increase. If we remove some of the C from the mixture, A and B will decrease. And if we were to add A, B, or a combination of the two, C will increase. Still with me here? Good.
What's going on when we come off a cycle:
Ok, so while we're on the cycle, are natural test production is going down to compensate for the exogeneous test intake, and our production of other steroid hormones (i.e. Estrogen, Cortisol, etc.) is going up to compensate for the heightened test levels. When we come off a cycle, we cease intake of exogeneous testosterone. In other words, we have very low test levels, and very high cortisol and estrogen levels: it's the EXACT OPPOSITE of what we had while starting our cycle.
REMEMBER Le Chatelier's Principle because this is where it gets really important. When we have an excess of one hormone, the others will start shifting around, to attain a certain equilibrium. Ok, I'm gonna say it (and bold it) again because it's just that important. When we have an excess of one hormone, the others will start shifting around, to attain a certain equilibrium. It is a very common misconception that we want to eradicate estrogen :nono:. High estrogen levels play an integral part in Post Cycle therapy. That's right, you want to welcome high estrogen with open freaking arms, but there's a trick to it. And that trick is the almighty SERM (Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator).
SERM's: the foundation of post cycle therapy:
Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulators are (and damn well should be) the foundation for any proper post-cycle therapy plan. A post cycle therapy plan without them, isn't a post cycle therapy plan: it's a bunch of crap you decided to take after doing a cycle. The purpose of a SERM is to block the negative effects estrogen, while your hormone levels go back to equilibrium.
SERM's are prescription drugs, and are NOT SOLD IN SUPPLEMENT STORES. In fact, there are only 3 ways ( can think of) in which you can obtain a SERM:
1) Through a Doctor's Prescription.
2) Through the Black Market (a.k.a. illegally)
3) As a research chemicals intended for use in lab rats.
The Different SERM's:
Tamoxifen (Nolvadex):
Reputation: Most popular SERM for post cycle therapy
Pros: Cheap. Effective for gyno prevention.
Cons: Heptatoxicity. Studies have shown it to lower IGF levels (I don't feel like citing, but it's about 20% decrease...IMO no biggie).
Popular Dosage (for a 4-week cycle): 40/40/20/20
Note: Tamoxifen Citrate is less potent, and should be dosed at an extra 30%.
Clomiphene Citrate (clomid):
Reputation: Second most popular. Usually taken the first week or so to speed up Testosterone recovery with Tamoxifen being taken the whole therapy.
Pros: Better than Tamoxifen for HTPA regernation. Less heptatoxicity. Does not lower IGF.
Cons: Less effective against gyno. Can cause emotional issues. May Cause blurred vision. Hot Flashes.
Popular Dosage (for a 4-week cycle): 100-200mg/100mg/50mg/50mg
Toremifene:
Reputation: Very popular on this board :think:
Pros: Much less toxic.
Con's: $$$$$expensive$$$$$
Popular Dosages (for a 4-week cycle): 120-240mg/120mg/60mg/30mg
Raloxifene:
Reputation: Very effective against gyno
Pros: Strong protection against gyno. Less toxic than Tamoxifen.
Con's: Cost Restricting. Can cause abnormal blood clotting in the eyes, lunges, and legs. May also cause hot flashes trouble breathing, and blurred vision.
Popular Dosages: (for a 4-week cycle): 120-240mg/120mg/60mg/30mg
Moving down the post cycle therapy Hierarchy: Cortisol Control
Excess cortisol can be damaging to your newly found muscle mass. Because of this, it is a good idea to use something to block or lower the excessive cortisol levels. Always start high, and taper your way down. Here's what we have to work with:
B-Androstenetriol (b-triol): This is one of the better cortisol suppressors. It has a terrible oral bioavailability, and should be taken transdermally. Dosages range from 25-50mg every 12 hours.
Methyl B-Androstenetriol (mb-triol): This is an enhanced version of b-triol designed for oral use. Because it is not an androgenic steroid, there is minimal heptatoxicity associated with it's alkylation. Found in the following products: Retain (by Anabolic Xtreme), Restore (by ALRI), Thyrogen-X (by ALRI)
7-Hydroxy-DHEA: Another potent cortisol suppressor with great oral bioavailability. Found in the following products: Lean Xtreme (by Designer Supplements), Reduce XT (by SNS)
7-oxo-DHEA (7-keto-DHEA): Still a decent contender, this has a terrible oral availability and an even worse half life (2 hours). This is best taken transdermally, where such effects can by bypassed.
Cissus: Unlike the above, the components of Cissus do not suppress Cortisol, but rather block cortisol receptors (better than Nandrolone or Dianabol according to some studies). Dosages vary significantly (pending extracts). SuperCissus by USPLabs is a high quality Cissus product.
Branched Chain Amino Acids: These should be a staple to begin with, but are a great anti-catabolic that mitigates the muscle-wasting effects of cortisol.
At the bottom of the PCT hierarchy there's AI's, Test Booster's, and other 'natural' anabolics
Way too many different things going on in here to go into too much detail. Just a word of caution (and this is my personal opinion), but if you're post cycle plan starts to look like a constitutional ammendment: you're over-doing it. And the worst part is if something goes wrong, you won't have a damn clue what caused it.
Honorable mentions of this part of the hierarchy:
Jungle Warfare (by ALRI)
MassFX (by Anabolic Xtreme)
Hyperdrol (by Anabolic Xtreme)
Ecdysterone/Turkesterone
Creatine Monohydrate
Can you tell I was bored after work today?
:smite: thesinner
Disclaimer: This post is for entertainment purposes only. I don't use or condone the usage of illegally obtained chemicals.
Author's Note: I cannot and will not give out any information on obtaining any of the drugs mentioned in this article. If you send me a private message asking for sources, I will reply with the following link everytime:
What's your outlook on Novadex XT since *cough* gives it the description of
"With its patent-pending formula Dianestrozole, studies show Novedex XT to be significantly better than any of the competition including formestane and 3,6,17-androstenetrione in modulating estrogen levels in the body and increasing natural testosterone levels."
Would this be sufficient for an AI?
My post cycle therapy plan consists (when it starts in another 2 weeks) of:
Cycle Support
Tamoxifen Citrate (spelling?)
6-oxo (possibly haven't decided yet though, any other suggestions for an AI, which is y i wanted to know about Novedex XT anyway)
Anti-Cort: still haven't decided
Test booster: was going to be Mass FX (original) but I heard it may skyrocket my estrogen lvls again :sad:
What do you think, comments, suggestions? Any info is welcome.
Ps. All this is after is an Epistane cycle but i've done previous ones before and i'm not taking anymore chances with increased est.
If this is true wouldnt you want to take a suicidal AI like Aromasin right at the beginning of the PCT? I heard Formestane was one as well.from ones that dont aromatize what you will get is a lot of aromatase enzyme sitting around since none of it has been getting used with natural test production down. so when test production goes back up, a lot of it will bind at first.
What is a welcomed amount of estrogen?well, the thing is at first you won't have much testosterone either. so the amount that does aromatize into estrogen at first brings a welcome amount of estrogen with it, since no estrogen at all isn't good either.
Come now. You guys think taking a steroid completely shuts down natural production the instant it hits your system?from ones that dont aromatize what you will get is a lot of aromatase enzyme sitting around since none of it has been getting used with natural test production down. so when test production goes back up, a lot of it will bind at first.
That is a guess, not a fact.
I don't understand why people find it necessary to take so many products for a PCT.jesus christ almighty.... this is some confusing crap atleast for me...
Ok this is for all of us who want to know what OTC pct supps are out and are supposed to "act/work" as what a SERM does. Lets say some1 is on a epistane/havoc cycle? So what "OTC" pct supps should be taken together after a havoc cycle and what would most likely be a correct dose for each? This may put a halt to the otc pct questions.
I my self will be taking for pct here soon... This was what some1 advised me to take and this is what he took and came out fine but everyone is different.
Inhibit-e (which is an atd) 2/2/1/1 every other day
post cycle support 4/4/4/4
Activate extreme 4/4/4/4
my havoc cycle is 20/20/30/30
(2caps for 2 weeks and 3 caps the next 2 weeks...)
Supporting Supps
cissus
cycle support 2 scoops 12hrs apart thru-out the cycle/pct
Tarine (sp)
What do you take?I don't understand why people find it necessary to take so many products for a PCT.
I think the only necessary thing (supplement wise) for PCT is a good SERM. The best cortisol blocker is food. Protein and carbs blunt cortisol.What do you take?
You dont find it necessary to use a SERM, AI and cortisol blocker?
(Even though the guy isnt using a SERM for his OTC PCT)
Im just kind of iffy about using ATD after getting delayed gyno off of PP. So I am going to try transdermal Formestane on my next PCT for Havoc in a few weeks, along with Torem and Retain2.
Or is that overkill as well?
Wow, thanks.If you're so afraid of getting gyno or losing most of your gains after the cycle, the solution is: Don't use steroids.
The statement was an opinion not directed at you persay, but for certain individuals who have the fear of God put into them about the possibility of gyno.Wow, thanks.
Maybe I should do that in the rest of life as well.
F*** trying to solve a problem, I should just stop doing what caused it. My boss will love that one.
Post Cycle Support and Stoked (both the same, by Anabolic Innovations) IS A SERM product and it's over the counter. 6-oxo Extreme has a SERM in it as well. Dermacrine Sustain is a SERM too...i understand what yall are saying (Force of Green and Atnartist) but my post was for the people who will not be using a SERM like myself and want to know what otc pct products are out there that are "SUPPOSE" to simulate what a SERM would do even if it isnt in comparison to the SERM. It may stop all the same questions about otc pct's.
I can relate. Since a delayed onset incident with Superdrol, I've had some crap behind my nips that I can't get rid of. If I'm really pumped or on a huge dose of a stim, my skin will tighten up enough to make it unnoticable... As far as wearing shirts that are tight fit... I don't see it happening right now until I get the surgery.So everyone is saying we want estrogen in PCT, but how much is too much? Is it correct in saying the higher the estrogen the higher your test will become in order to reach equilibrium?
Does prolactin play apart in anyone's PCT, or on cycle? Since prolactin is fuel to estrogens fire of creating or aggreviating gyno.
Yeah, I came back to gyno. It's hard to rid your mind of when you always see it, especially when wearing t-shirts(hard nips)
by what mechanism? I see that on labels sure, but don't understand how or quite believe it. Other than by binding with the ARs so that the test has nowhere to go, but that seems like it would be minimal effect. its not like 1-t is going to convert to testosterone.Not at all. Any steroid (aromatizable or not) will increase your testosterone.
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