M1P - Anabolic Progestin

[Bry17]

M1T no reports

Type in "M1T gyno" into google.

Madol aromatizes

Wrong.

Still as you are considering it 5aR androgens dont cause gyno.

DHT, Testosterone, and Nandrolone 'house' analogs that (whether 17a or not) CAN induce gyno. Period.

I am talking about natural steroids in the body and unequivically5aReduced steroids prevent and reverse gyno.

The only real 5a-reduced androgen in the human body that will regulate the androgen/estrogen ratio is DHT. It is the most potent binder in key tissues and most of it's natural 5a-derivatives will pale in comparison.

 

[Bry17]

No real offence but all you've shown is that you don't understand steroids very well at all. How about you get some knowledge and then come back and talk. Go over to bb.com where your kind are respected...

lulz

 

[Taurus Nut.]

another treatment of gyno with 5aR androgen DHT

J Pediatr. 1986 Jul;109(1):144-9.
Treatment of persistent pubertal gynecomastia with dihydrotestosterone heptanoate.

Eberle AJ, Sparrow JT, Keenan BS.
Abstract

Four boys with persistent pubertal gynecomastia were given intramuscular dihydrotestosterone heptanoate (DHT-hp) at 2 to 4-week intervals for 16 weeks. By the end of treatment, breast size in all four boys had decreased 67% to 78%. Initial plasma levels of gonadotropins, estradiol, testosterone, and dihydrotestosterone (DHT) were normal. Mean plasma DHT concentration rose with the injections of DHT-hp, and remained elevated throughout the treatment period. Estradiol, LH, FSH, and testosterone decreased during treatment, as did 24-hour urinary LH and FSH. No regrowth of breast tissue was observed 6 to 15 months after treatment, although hormone concentrations had returned to near pretreatment values by 2 months after the last injection. DHT-hp has potential to be an effective medical therapy for persistent pubertal gynecomastia.

 

[jdrannin1]

I'm looking forward to this product and the rest of the line-up. I had LOTS of success with the old Legal Gear products and it seems Taurus truly represents what the old LG was....bad ass products that don't cater to the GNC crowd.

 

[Bry17]

How about this one where they call DHT a "pure androgen"

Baillieres Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1998 Oct;12(3):501-6.
Dihydrotestosterone: a rationale for its use as a non-aromatizable androgen replacement therapeutic agent.

Swerdloff RS, Wang C.

Department of Medicine, UCLA School of Medicine, Harbor-UCLA Medical Center, Torrance, USA.
Abstract

Testosterone therapy is commonly used to treat male hypogonadism, androgen deficiency of severe illness, androgen deficiency of ageing and microphallus in infancy. The effects of testosterone are mediated directly as testosterone or after conversion to either dihydrotestosterone (DHT) or oestradiol. DHT is a potent androgen and cannot be aromatized to oestrogens, therefore acting as a pure androgen. DHT has been proposed as an androgen replacement therapy, with possible advantages over testosterone in certain circumstances in the ageing population as well as in patients with gynaecomastia and microphallus. A potential advantage of DHT over testosterone as an androgen replacement therapy is the reported and seemingly paradoxically muted effects of DHT on prostate growth. The decreased effect of DHT compared with testosterone on the prostate gland of humans may be due to the decrease in intraprostatic oestradiol levels. The potential beneficial effect of less prostate growth after DHT requires substantiation and, if true, must be balanced against any negative effects that might occur on bone, lipids and sexuality when a pure androgen replaces treatment with an aromatizable androgen.

Yeah. It is a pure androgen, unlike testosterone which can oxidatively aromatize. dunno what you're trying to prove from this study, as I already knew this.

 

[Bry17]

I'm looking forward to this product and the rest of the line-up. I had LOTS of success with the old Legal Gear products and it seems Taurus truly represents what the old LG was....bad ass products that don't cater to the GNC crowd.

I am looking forward to M1P's release as well. I wish Eric success.

 

[Taurus Nut.]

Study showing the differences of DHT to DHN and that DHN is a less androgenic steroid which causes it to induce gyno symptoms by reducing the pool of DHT a KNOWN preventative agent against gyno.

J Steroid Biochem. 1982 Dec;17(6):653-60.
Relative binding affinities of testosterone, 19-nortestosterone and their 5 alpha-reduced derivatives to the androgen receptor and to other androgen-binding proteins: a suggested role of 5 alpha-reductive steroid metabolism in the dissociation of "myotropic" and "androgenic" activities of 19-nortestosterone.

Tóth M, Zakár T.
Abstract

The relative binding affinities of testosterone (T), 19-nortestosterone (N) and their 5 alpha-reduced derivatives: 5 alpha-dihydrotestosterone (DHT) and 5 alpha-dihydro-19-nortestosterone (DHN) to the androgen receptor of the rat seminal vesicle was studied using competition experiments. In cell-free extracts incubated at +10 degrees C for 18 h the relative binding affinities of these steroids (DHT greater than T = DHN = N) proved to be specific for the androgen receptor, in the sense that only prostatic extracts gave a similar result while three other androgen binding proteins (human sex steroid binding globulin, rat epididymal androgen binding protein and an antibody raised against T) exhibited quite different binding specificities. In minced seminal vesicles incubated at 37 degrees C for 1 h the binding affinities showed marked differences (DHT greater than N greater than T greater than or equal to DHN) and similar patterns were observed with both the cytoplasmic and the nu clear receptors. Our findings suggest that (I) the simultaneous presence of a 4-ene double bond and 19-methyl group in T does not favor the tight binding of T to the androgen receptor; therefore, either saturation of this double bond or elimination of the 19-methyl group leads to increased binding and (II) while 5 alpha-reduction of T increases the affinity of this steroid to the receptor, that of N does not influence or rather tends to decrease the binding affinity. The opposite changes observed in the binding affinities of T and N after their 5 alpha-reduction may account for the lower androgenicity of N. On the other hand, the relative myotropic activity in vivo of these steroids is apparently determined by the ratio of their affinities (N/T approximately 3 at 37 degrees C) to the androgen receptor.

 

[JudoJosh]

Wow I go to a BBQ and this thread explodes..

some fun reading here

opcorn:

 

[Bry17]

Study showing the differences of DHT to DHN and that DHN is a less androgenic steroid which causes it to induce gyno symptoms by reducing the pool of DHT a KNOWN preventative agent against gyno.

J Steroid Biochem. 1982 Dec;17(6):653-60.
Relative binding affinities of testosterone, 19-nortestosterone and their 5 alpha-reduced derivatives to the androgen receptor and to other androgen-binding proteins: a suggested role of 5 alpha-reductive steroid metabolism in the dissociation of "myotropic" and "androgenic" activities of 19-nortestosterone.

Tóth M, Zakár T.
Abstract

The relative binding affinities of testosterone (T), 19-nortestosterone (N) and their 5 alpha-reduced derivatives: 5 alpha-dihydrotestosterone (DHT) and 5 alpha-dihydro-19-nortestosterone (DHN) to the androgen receptor of the rat seminal vesicle was studied using competition experiments. In cell-free extracts incubated at +10 degrees C for 18 h the relative binding affinities of these steroids (DHT greater than T = DHN = N) proved to be specific for the androgen receptor, in the sense that only prostatic extracts gave a similar result while three other androgen binding proteins (human sex steroid binding globulin, rat epididymal androgen binding protein and an antibody raised against T) exhibited quite different binding specificities. In minced seminal vesicles incubated at 37 degrees C for 1 h the binding affinities showed marked differences (DHT greater than N greater than T greater than or equal to DHN) and similar patterns were observed with both the cytoplasmic and the nu clear receptors. Our findings suggest that (I) the simultaneous presence of a 4-ene double bond and 19-methyl group in T does not favor the tight binding of T to the androgen receptor; therefore, either saturation of this double bond or elimination of the 19-methyl group leads to increased binding and (II) while 5 alpha-reduction of T increases the affinity of this steroid to the receptor, that of N does not influence or rather tends to decrease the binding affinity. The opposite changes observed in the binding affinities of T and N after their 5 alpha-reduction may account for the lower androgenicity of N. On the other hand, the relative myotropic activity in vivo of these steroids is apparently determined by the ratio of their affinities (N/T approximately 3 at 37 degrees C) to the androgen receptor.

I'm NOT saying DHN can't cause gyno. In fact, I agree that it can. BUT, not without help. It aromatizes as well and I believe both equally contribute, as should you. If you'd like I could start posting studies ITT showing it can.

 

[Liftergym33]

Well sorry we didn't know if this was the exact same thing, at first your reps were eluding to the fact it was prob new so who knew if your individual compound should/shouldnt necessarily need it. I tried propadrol from est before they had a version with an ai and that stuff had my nips in pain within days... I am prone though as are many people but its smart for the just in case.

Just to clarify, not one rep ever eluded this was a new supplement. this has been in conversation for months, many months. only thing that is NEW is the AI that is used, due to the fact the FDA had an issue with the old AI being used in the original M1-P.. But with time, we found better progestions to be used I can see how you probably misunderstood.

 

[JudoJosh]

I'm looking forward to this product and the rest of the line-up. I had LOTS of success with the old Legal Gear products and it seems Taurus truly represents what the old LG was....bad ass products that don't cater to the GNC crowd.

Hit the nail on the head bud!

Taurus is going to be able to do what LG couldn't :bigok:

 

[Taurus Nut.]

We were discussing WHY nandrolone causes gyno and the obvious answer is that it turns into DHN not because it has progestational activity. Try to follow the discussion here instead of just trying to prove how much bull**** you can throw into a discussion.

There are always reports of steroids inducing gyno and all of them can in some individuals. You asked me if we got reports of M1T causing gyno and I told you NO. Now, can some people get gyno? Absolutely but I don't know the exact cause and I am certainly sure you don't. What I do know is that it's not "progestational" activity...

 

[Bry17]

Can 19-nortestosterone derivatives be aromatized in the liver of adult humans? Are there clinical implications?
Previous studies in postmenopausal women have demonstrated that, after oral administration of norethisterone, a small proportion of the compound is rapidly converted into ethinylestradiol. The shape of the concentration - time curve suggested that this occurred in the liver. The results were confirmed by in vitro investigations with adult human liver tissue. In 2002, it was shown that, after oral treatment of women with tibolone, aromatization of the compound occurred, resulting in the formation of a potent estrogen, 7 alpha-methyl-ethinylestradiol. The result has been called into question, because the adult human liver does not express cytochrome P450 aromatase, which is encoded by the CYP 19 gene. Moreover, it has been claimed that the serum level of 7 alpha-methyl-ethinylestradiol measured by gas chromatography/mass spectrometry was an artifact. REPLY: Aromatization of steroids is a complex process of consecutive oxidation reactions which are catalyzed by cytochrome P450 enzymes. The conversion of the natural C19 steroids, testosterone and androstenedione, into estradiol-17beta and estrone is dependent on the oxidative elimination of the angular C19-methyl group. This complex key reaction is catalyzed by the cytochrome P450 aromatase, which is expressed in many tissues of the adult human (e.g. ovary, fat tissue), but not in the liver. However, 19-nortestosterone derivatives are characterized by the lack of the C19-methyl group. Therefore, for the aromatization of these synthetic steroids, the action of the cytochrome P450 aromatase is not necessary and the oxidative introduction of double bonds into the A-ring can be catalyzed by other hepatic cytochrome P450 enzymes. The final key process in the formation of a phenolic A-ring, both in natural androgens and 19-nortestosterone derivatives, is the enolization of a 3-keto group to the C2-C3-enol or the C3-C4-enol moiety, which occurs without the action of enzymes. CONCLUSION: 19-nortestosterone derivatives (norethisterone, norethynodrel, tibolone) can readily be aromatized in the adult human liver. This leads to the formation of the potent estrogens ethinylestradiol from norethisterone or norethynodrel and 7 alpha-methyl-ethinylestradiol from tibolone. This may have clinical consequences, e.g. the elevated risk of venous thromboembolic disease in premenopausal women treated with high doses of norethisterone for bleeding disorders, or the elevated risk of stroke or endometrial disease in postmenopausal women treated with tibolone.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17653961

 

[Bry17]

We were discussing WHY nandrolone causes gyno and the obvious answer is that it turns into DHN not because it has progestational activity. Try to follow the discussion here instead of just trying to prove how much bull**** you can throw into a discussion.

There are always reports of steroids inducing gyno and all of them can in some individuals. You asked me if we got reports of M1T causing gyno and I told you NO. Now, can some people get gyno? Absolutely but I don't know the exact cause and I am certainly sure you don't. What I do know is that it's not "progestational" activity...

And you said it was just DHN related. Evidence that aromatization and/or progestational activity won't cause gyno as well??

 

[Taurus Nut.]

So? We are talking about the likely cause of gyno from Nandrolone and I certainly believe it is due to the DHN component. It only makes sense.

Do you even understand what you are discussing? Why does this all of a sudden feel like bb.com? Argument gets destroyed...change the discussion.

Go to your own forum and stop wasting everyones time please...

 

[Bry17]

So? We are talking about the likely cause of gyno from Nandrolone and I certainly believe it is due to the DHN component. It only makes sense.

Do you even understand what you are discussing? Why does this all of a sudden feel like bb.com? Argument gets destroyed...change the discussion.

Go to your own forum and stop wasting everyones time please...

You completely turned everything around with your incessant babbering and study throwing. No offense, but I don't think someone that says Madol aromatizes should be giving any advice on steroids. Good day.

 

[Taurus Nut.]

You have no idea what you are talking about.

Hey captain obvious some nandrolone turns to estrogen. Thanks for the tip...

Can you give me one study showing the progestational effects of deca cause gyno? Find me ONE study please...

Wasn't that the point? Of course you can't because it isn't the cause of gyno from progestational steroids whether they are androgens or progestins (c19 vs c21)

 

[Bry17]

You have no idea what you are talking about.

Hey captain obvious some nandrolone turns to estrogen. Thanks for the tip...

Can you give me one study showing the progestational effects of deca cause gyno? Find me ONE study please...

Wasn't that the point? Of course you can't because it isn't the cause of gyno from progestational steroids whether they are androgens or progestins (c19 vs c21)

Can you find me one study saying it's not? So what about the rest of the 19-nor derivatives? Do they all just 5a-reduce to much less androgenic forms of DHT and cause gyno?? NO they don't. Some of them don't 5a reduce or aromatize and one of the only probable causes of gyno would be progesterone mediated activity. M1T (although dht derived), Trenbolone, and Mibolerone are good examples, to an extent. (it aromatizes though)

 

[Bry17]

Sorry folks, I don't usually act like that, but when a person comes into our forum and acts a fool I get pretty irritated.

The question was "Do progestins cause gyno?" the answer I am betting my reputation on is NO they do not. I got all this same **** last time with M1P and I went round and round with these people and guess what 100,000 bottles of M1P sold and NOT ONE CASE OF GYNO!

So, when someone comes in and starts scaring people with that non-sense I get irritated. Then when they try to change the discussion it really pisses me off. The progestational effects of Deca do not cause gyno in my professional opinion and the literature supports me on this.

I didn't act a fool. You did this to yourself. It looks very unprofessional and uncivilized of you, and I never tried to put down M1P.

 

[suresha]

Some very intellectual minds in here, nice interesting debate going on. Look forward to learning more about M1P...

LIKEWISEopcorn: :reporter:take notes, class in session

 

[Taurus Nut.]

What upset the friendly dynamic was this statement from you with no backing

"Deca catalyzes to e2 very slowly. It is much more likely that its progestational activity induces gyno or, if highly dosed, it may be due to the combined activities as you said."

It's not likely at all. Progesterone doesn't cause gyno it prevents it IMHO. I also have the backing of a very prominent Dr. from Germany and also practical experience.

 

[Taurus Nut.]

lol stupid old computer had me logged in as LG still...blame my wife for kicking me out of the bedroom!

 

[Taurus Nut.]

Sorry folks, I don't usually act like that, but when a person comes into our forum and acts a fool I get pretty irritated.

The question was "Do progestins cause gyno?" the answer I am betting my reputation on is NO they do not. I got all this same **** last time with M1P and I went round and round with these people and guess what 100,000 bottles of M1P sold and NOT ONE CASE OF GYNO!

So, when someone comes in and starts scaring people with that non-sense I get irritated. Then when they try to change the discussion it really pisses me off. The progestational effects of Deca do not cause gyno in my professional opinion and the literature supports me on this.

 

[Taurus Nut.]

Can you find me one study saying it's not? So what about the rest of the 19-nor derivatives? Do they all just 5a-reduce to much less androgenic forms of DHT and cause gyno?? NO they don't. Some of them don't 5a reduce or aromatize and one of the only probable causes of gyno would be progesterone mediated activity. For instance, M1T and even Mibolerone to an extent. (it aromatizes though)

Yes, absolutely and I've already done it multiple times in multiple threads over the past 5 years. Showing the effect of progesterone and progestins LOWERING the estrogen receptor density level for lack of a better phrase.

Here's another one, prolactin doesn't cause gyno it prevents it. If you are in the normal range for prolactin it prevents gyno. So, guys that take **** to drop their prolactin levels to zero are actually causing a more likely scenario for gyno only people with hyper-prolactin levels should be trying to lower prolactin.

Ask me a question and when I answer you don't like the answer so you try to argue some pointless position. Yes, you need E for gyno. Yes, Nandrolone turns into E but nothing I've seen would make me believe it does so at a substantially higher rate than testosterone, so something else is to blame for the higher incidence of gyno and "sexual side effects" from Deca. That culprit is DHN IMHO. The literature explains that quite readily.

No, no one really understands the full metabolism of 17aMethyl synthetic steroids, so it's very tough to pick and choose "activity" from synthetic steroids. So, no clue why m1t and superdrol can cause gyno in some people. We can speculate but no one really knows for sure. The vast majority do not experience gyno from these steroids and a very small population do. People smarter than I (namely Seth) have advanced theories on why it occurs, but to be honest even they don't know for sure.

 

[Bry17]

Yes, absolutely and I've already done it multiple times in multiple threads over the past 5 years. Showing the effect of progesterone and progestins LOWERING the estrogen receptor density level for lack of a better phrase.

Here's another one, prolactin doesn't cause gyno it prevents it. If you are in the normal range for prolactin it prevents gyno. So, guys that take **** to drop their prolactin levels to zero are actually causing a more likely scenario for gyno only people with hyper-prolactin levels should be trying to lower prolactin.

Ask me a question and when I answer you don't like the answer so you try to argue some pointless position. Yes, you need E for gyno. Yes, Nandrolone turns into E but nothing I've seen would make me believe it does so at a substantially higher rate than testosterone, so something else is to blame for the higher incidence of gyno and "sexual side effects" from Deca. That culprit is DHN IMHO. The literature explains that quite readily.

Where's the evidence to support that Deca reduces more than aromatizes? And for the record, I never said it was because of progesterone.. I said it was the combination of estrogen and p activity that spurred gyno. I also see the argument for DHN. The point is, you really can't determine which one is responsible as much as you'd like to think you can.

 

[Taurus Nut.]

I apologize for getting testy with you, I've just dealt with this OVER AND OVER. I've explained it easily 10 times and the result is always the same. Brolore creeps back in.

Progestins showing the same level of activity as progesterone do not cause gyno they in fact reduce it by lowering activity of the estrogen receptor.

As much as I would love to discuss advanced nandrolone theory, this isn't really the thread for it and quite frankly that is why I also got a little miffed.

 

[Bry17]

I apologize for getting testy with you, I've just dealt with this OVER AND OVER. I've explained it easily 10 times and the result is always the same. Brolore creeps back in.

Progestins showing the same level of activity as progesterone do not cause gyno they in fact reduce it by lowering activity of the estrogen receptor.

And did you know it's been studied that some steroids that cannot aromatize actually produce e2 through their inherent androgen receptor binding? sh1t's ****ed up in the world of steroids. Lots of it we won't understand.

And I also apologize for contributing to the crapping of this thread. Peace

 

[JudoJosh]

Glad thats all done...

Now can we get back to how awesome M1P is gonna be :bling:

 

[cdsfx]

Eric why dont you make this explanation a sticky on the forum that way you don't have to keep re-explaining yourself.

 

[Taurus Nut.]

Great idea actually!

 

[poopypants]

Just to clarify, not one rep ever eluded this was a new supplement. this has been in conversation for months, many months. only thing that is NEW is the AI that is used, due to the fact the FDA had an issue with the old AI being used in the original M1-P.. But with time, we found better progestions to be used I can see how you probably misunderstood.

second and third post...

Is it the same compound as the old? No new ingredients?

Almost positive its a new ingredient

I dont think either were eluding to some additional ai here, come on, title is m1p

Soooooo ya, I questioned what its effects might be considering it was about to be released for "testing" (taurus himself first post) and did so with honest concern regarding a new progestin.

No one can deny that in a high estrogen environment (which can be in anyone without knowledge of their current hormone levels) progesterone can certainly contribute to gyno and more specifically lactation.

I meant no harm by it, nor did I think it would blow the thread up in debate. I loved og lg series compounds. My first run EVER was m1t gels with nac included from lg. I have respect for trying to bring new hormone alternatives to market as well and although every person in the world should be well read on the subject before ever ingesting their first hormone, the reality of things shows otherwise. Given this, I think its just smart to help out n block something from giving a 21 year old in their full right to run hormones from getting leaky tits with a lil ai and prolactin inhibitor.

Just a suggestion, take it fwiw.

 

[JudoJosh]

second and third post...




I dont think either were eluding to some additional ai here, come on, title is m1p

Soooooo ya, I questioned what its effects might be considering it was about to be released for "testing" (taurus himself first post) and did so with honest concern regarding a new progestin.

No one can deny that in a high estrogen environment (which can be in anyone without knowledge of their current hormone levels) progesterone can certainly contribute to gyno and more specifically lactation.

I meant no harm by it, nor did I think it would blow the thread up in debate. I loved og lg series compounds. My first run EVER was m1t gels with nac included from lg. I have respect for trying to bring new hormone alternatives to market as well and although every person in the world should be well read on the subject before ever ingesting their first hormone, the reality of things shows otherwise. Given this, I think its just smart to help out n block something from giving a 21 year old in their full right to run hormones from getting leaky tits with a lil ai and prolactin inhibitor.

Just a suggestion, take it fwiw.

Its ok you must have just missed my post then because I definetely mentioned the possibilty of a AI being included in M1P

The old M1P I believe had a AI with it. Not sure if Eric did the same thing with this one.

I'm sure all will be clearer when the write up is released

And Josh never said difinetively it was a new compound he said he was alomst positive it is a new ingredient.

Cut us some slack bro.. TN is a brand spanking new company. Eric is INSANELY busy with launching this from the ground up. We have only released 2 products and they JUST shipped out and he is ALREADY announcing 2 more products! Us reps are just trying to answer questions with the information we have available to us. He said he was almost sure, and technically he is correct. The AI in M1P is a new ingredient, it will not be the same AI as was in the old M1P.

No worries about the thread you lil fire starter :firedevil:

All questions are welcomed and we are here to help the best we can. It is understandable you would have a concern, sh!t everytime a new PH hits the shelves first thing I think, "is this gonna give me bitch tits". NOBODY wants that to happen and its a legitatimate concern. The thread got some what off track into a debate of the chemistry of some steroids but its all a learning experience for everyone. I enjoyed reading it all, I definetely learned a couple things in this thread alone!

Eric founded LG and has been in this game for a very long time. If you liked the old school LG products then you won't be disappointed by Taurus Nutrition. You can say TN is a way for Eric to get back to his roots. There are lots of products lined up, this is only the tip of the iceberg.

 

[poopypants]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to JudoJosh again.

thing is my post was number 7, before an ai was mentioned...

I understand all that's going on with a new company, that's why I feel so bad it got so inflamed. I'm really excited to see what all you guys can bring to market. Add some excitement once again to the market regarding new compounds instead of worry and questioning that obviously happens

 

[Liftergym33]

thing is my post was number 7, before an ai was mentioned...

I understand all that's going on with a new company, that's why I feel so bad it got so inflamed. I'm really excited to see what all you guys can bring to market. Add some excitement once again to the market regarding new compounds instead of worry and questioning that obviously happens

Seriously poopy, If i was near you right now, I'd hold you upside down by your ankles! :buttkick:

 

[Liftergym33]

thing is my post was number 7, before an ai was mentioned...

I understand all that's going on with a new company, that's why I feel so bad it got so inflamed. I'm really excited to see what all you guys can bring to market. Add some excitement once again to the market regarding new compounds instead of worry and questioning that obviously happens

like i said earlier, i see how you misunderstood, There has been a thread going on for awhile in LGs section, once Eric was thinking about bringing this back. Anyone who knew M1-P knew it contained an AI.., all is good...back to topic now please.

 

[Taurus Nut.]

The problem is that you are not correct in your assertion that progesterone leads to gyno it does not. I think the confusion lies in that it probably would contribute to Male Breast Cancer since it is anabolic.

I can certainly deny that high progesterone can cause gyno and isn't the cause of lactation in men (which is so incredibly rare by the way if you'd quit squeezing your nipples).

Progesterone actually reverses gyno from our research and also from what I have witnessed in people who have used it.

 

[monstermash]

The problem is that you are not correct in your assertion that progesterone leads to gyno it does not. I think the confusion lies in that it probably would contribute to Male Breast Cancer since it is anabolic.

I can certainly deny that high progesterone can cause gyno and isn't the cause of lactation in men (which is so incredibly rare by the way if you'd quit squeezing your nipples).

Progesterone actually reverses gyno from our research and also from what I have witnessed in people who have used it.

Any benefit from taking it on-cycle? How would one go about using progesterone for this purpose?

 

[Taurus Nut.]

Yes, there is probably a huge benefit to taking it on cycle if there are flare ups. I have personally used it. I rubbed a dime sized amount of progesterone cream into my wrists and almost instantly my symptoms went away.

Prolactin is necessary too. Excessive levels of prolactin are not good, but you NEED prolactin as a male in the normal range it PREVENTS gyno. So taking something like cabergoline might actually make things worse unless you have hyperprolactin levels.


From Seth:

"People started invoking "new" mechanisms for the induction of gyno in the late 1990's -- As far as I know, I was one of the first people proposing progesterone receptor activation as a potential cause of gyno back then. I have changed my mind since then as I have accumulated knowledge over the years. There is no evidence that progesterone or prolactin intitiate gynecomastia but plenty of evidence that estrogen does. All of this stemmed fro mthe fact that people were complaining of gyno from anadrol but also fron tren and nandrolone none of which were supposed to convert to estrogen. What I realized a while ago is that there is no need to invoke exotic mechanisms. Pher and superdrol do not convert to estrogen (nor does tren or anadrol) but they do suppress SHBG. SHBG is actually protective against breast tissue growth beyond just sequestering estrogens (you can read more about this in my book ). The removal of this protective effect as weel as the increase in "free" estrogen from the reduction in SHBG can explain some of the propensity for forming gyno with these compounds. With nandrolone, trenbolone, and other 19-norsteroids, there is also the added production of 5-alpha reduced metabolites that are weak androgens (there is some evidence that tren is metabolized in this fashion) which upstes the androgen to estrogen rati and further contributes to the ability to produce gyno."

 

[monstermash]

Yes, there is probably a huge benefit to taking it on cycle if there are flare ups. I have personally used it. I rubbed a dime sized amount of progesterone cream into my wrists and almost instantly my symptoms went away.

Prolactin is necessary too. Excessive levels of prolactin are not good, but you NEED prolactin as a male in the normal range it PREVENTS gyno. So taking something like cabergoline might actually make things worse unless you have hyperprolactin levels.

So if I were to feel symptoms of a gyno flare (itchy, puffy nips with abnormal sensitivity) I would dab a bit on my wrist to make it go away? This is the first time I've heard of this so I'm truly interested in trying this if a flare-up happens (on cycle right now).

 

[Taurus Nut.]

That's what I did and it went away.

 

[monstermash]

That's what I did and it went away.

Interesting. You think it was a specific case of low progesterone levels or could this be generally recommended to people with flare-ups while on-cycle?

I'm on test-e and dymethazine and closely monitor my minor gyno while on-cycle. Do you think it would be wise to keep some Prog. cream "on-hand" or maybe even use it in small doses daily to prevent flare-ups? know dermacrine has prgesterone in it but it's use is for -

" The second hormone in Dermacrine is pregnenolone. This hormone was added in a precise ratio with the DHEA to balance and control conversion to DHT (dihydrotestosterone), which may cause hair loss in men prone to androgenic alopecia. (24) Those sensitive to DHT who are concerned with hair-loss need not worry; Dermacrine won't cost you the hair-line! Pregnenolone is also a powerful neurosteroid, which can enhance cognitive focus and memory. (21-23)"

Thanks for your time btw.

Back on topic----Definitely interested to see what hormone you are going with.

 

[poopypants]

Interesting. You think it was a specific case of low progesterone levels or could this be generally recommended to people with flare-ups while on-cycle?

I'm on test-e and dymethazine and closely monitor my minor gyno while on-cycle. Do you think it would be wise to keep some Prog. cream "on-hand" or maybe even use it in small doses daily to prevent flare-ups? know dermacrine has prgesterone in it but it's use is for -

" The second hormone in Dermacrine is pregnenolone. This hormone was added in a precise ratio with the DHEA to balance and control conversion to DHT (dihydrotestosterone), which may cause hair loss in men prone to androgenic alopecia. (24) Those sensitive to DHT who are concerned with hair-loss need not worry; Dermacrine won't cost you the hair-line! Pregnenolone is also a powerful neurosteroid, which can enhance cognitive focus and memory. (21-23)"

Thanks for your time btw.

Back on topic----Definitely interested to see what hormone you are going with.

Dude I would keep letro/serm on hand, not progesterone. Gyno is ultimately estrogens doing. You want something that wil assuredly work, use letro. I wouldnt leave it up to the possibility its low progest... What if in actuality its hyperprogesterone activity which even taurus has said is a possibility and now all your doing is throwing fuel on the fire?

This is a great idea and a viable treatment method if you have blood done and are certain its a contributing factor, otherwise I would nip it at the source bro, estrogen.

Come on now.

 

[3clipseGT]

My apologies for causing confusion or giving false information.

 

[oufinny]

Interesting. You think it was a specific case of low progesterone levels or could this be generally recommended to people with flare-ups while on-cycle?

I'm on test-e and dymethazine and closely monitor my minor gyno while on-cycle. Do you think it would be wise to keep some Prog. cream "on-hand" or maybe even use it in small doses daily to prevent flare-ups? know dermacrine has prgesterone in it but it's use is for -

" The second hormone in Dermacrine is pregnenolone. This hormone was added in a precise ratio with the DHEA to balance and control conversion to DHT (dihydrotestosterone), which may cause hair loss in men prone to androgenic alopecia. (24) Those sensitive to DHT who are concerned with hair-loss need not worry; Dermacrine won't cost you the hair-line! Pregnenolone is also a powerful neurosteroid, which can enhance cognitive focus and memory. (21-23)"

Thanks for your time btw.

Back on topic----Definitely interested to see what hormone you are going with.

If you are taking an on-cycle AI as you should with test e, there should be no risk and DMZ is a dry compound. I read that and thought why would you have any gyno issues with that compound? Anyways, probably good to have letro or nolva on hand if you are prone to flare ups as was said.

 

[poopypants]

Def both... Thing is its been theorized that superdrol gyno is the result of it displacing bound estrogen from shbg, so the typical method of just blocking test from aromatizing into estrogen may not be enough, you'd want to block activity at the receptor site as well since the unbound estrogen doesn't even need aromatase to do its dirty work....

Either way, I wouldnt rely on a whole diff thing altogether as your method of insurance against flare ups.

 

[thebigt]

I'm looking forward to this product and the rest of the line-up. I had LOTS of success with the old Legal Gear products and it seems Taurus truly represents what the old LG was....bad ass products that don't cater to the GNC crowd.

geez, for a minute i thought i might have written this!!!!




great post.:yup:

 

[monstermash]

Dude I would keep letro/serm on hand, not progesterone. Gyno is ultimately estrogens doing. You want something that wil assuredly work, use letro. I wouldnt leave it up to the possibility its low progest... What if in actuality its hyperprogesterone activity which even taurus has said is a possibility and now all your doing is throwing fuel on the fire?

This is a great idea and a viable treatment method if you have blood done and are certain its a contributing factor, otherwise I would nip it at the source bro, estrogen.

Come on now.

If you are taking an on-cycle AI as you should with test e, there should be no risk and DMZ is a dry compound. I read that and thought why would you have any gyno issues with that compound? Anyways, probably good to have letro or nolva on hand if you are prone to flare ups as was said.

Def both... Thing is its been theorized that superdrol gyno is the result of it displacing bound estrogen from shbg, so the typical method of just blocking test from aromatizing into estrogen may not be enough, you'd want to block activity at the receptor site as well since the unbound estrogen doesn't even need aromatase to do its dirty work....

Either way, I wouldnt rely on a whole diff thing altogether as your method of insurance against flare ups.

Thanks guys but I was asking out of curiousity. This isn't my first rodeo I have all my ancillary Rx's in place. I'm using erase right now more for cortisol control but it does make me feel n ice and dry @ 4 caps/day. If I need it I have exemestane, letro, and nolva. This is not a bulking cycle for me, it's a cut and the test is fairly low.

 

[ilikebread]

Subd for updates

 

[Taurus Nut.]

Dude I would keep letro/serm on hand, not progesterone. Gyno is ultimately estrogens doing. You want something that wil assuredly work, use letro. I wouldnt leave it up to the possibility its low progest... What if in actuality its hyperprogesterone activity which even taurus has said is a possibility and now all your doing is throwing fuel on the fire?

This is a great idea and a viable treatment method if you have blood done and are certain its a contributing factor, otherwise I would nip it at the source bro, estrogen.

Come on now.

Dude, this is what I am talking about PROLACTIN AND PROGESTERONE ARE NOT THE SAME HORMONE. Just because they start with a P doesn't mean that they are the same hormone. HyperPROLACTIN levels are an issue with gyno not progesterone.

 

[ryanp81]

... Sooooo how likely is it this is a gyno pill?

I was under the impression that it would prevent as well as ease any current gyno ??? Sounds interesting, Subbed.