LGD and MK-677 stack. Does this look ok?

[Boxfiller]

So I've finally got everytrhing together to start my first run at SARMS.
How does the following look -

Week 1-7: LGD 20mg (or if I have the first week at 10mg I can push to 8 weeks - Does it really matter?)
Week 1-12: (5 days on, 2 days off) - MK-677 25mg
Week 1-12: Dermacrine 4 pumps a day (I also have 4-Andro, is one better thatn the other to use...Or both )
PCT 4 weeks Enclo 12.5mg

Taking Vit D, Coq10, Milk Thistle, NAC, Multivit, Omega 3, Codliver oil, Biotin.

Any recommendtaions or chanages to be made to this?

 

[Oliver Kween]

When traveling through other sources, Mk is not so necessary. LDG fulfills enough functions for this purpose.
Personal opinion: Use Cardarine or SR, things that will have little or no impact on your blood sugar and your health.

So I've finally got everytrhing together to start my first run at SARMS.
How does the following look -

Week 1-7: LGD 20mg (or if I have the first week at 10mg I can push to 8 weeks - Does it really matter?)
Week 1-12: (5 days on, 2 days off) - MK-677 25mg
Week 1-12: Dermacrine 4 pumps a day (I also have 4-Andro, is one better thatn the other to use...Or both )
PCT 4 weeks Enclo 12.5mg

For your Liver health
OK, That's is good ! Choose @sns produt at this sujet

Taking Vit D, Coq10, Milk Thistle, NAC, Multivit, Omega 3, Codliver oil, Biotin.

4AD during your cycle is a good way like any other, although I will opt for Enclo, "ENCLO" -not CLOMID -

Dermacrine may be before bed.

On my Clc LGD

I added Enclo and 4AD. ( I hesitate to put EPI )
Dermacrine I only used it after the cycle, with Sustain also when supplementing with Incon7

I let you measure your doses because they are specific to each

 

[Smont]

If you do the cycle like you have laid put your going to run into problems, lgd is the main component of this cycle, when you stop lgd your gonna wanna start pct. So either get enough to run for all twelve weeks or save the lgd for the last 7-8 weeks

 

[Smont]

4 andro is better then dermacrine for the intended purpose but either should work, I like thev5 on 2 off with mk. Eat low carbs on the off days and use a gda with yiur high carb meals and that "should" keep Blood sugar in check.

 

[Boxfiller]

Ok, good info. Thanks guys.
Seein as I have the MK now I'm just going to run it

I will amment this so:

Week 1-12: MK-677 25mg (5 days on, 2 days off)
Week 3-12: LGD 15mg
Week 1-12: Dermacrine 4 pumps before bed
Week 1-12: 4 andro 4 pumps in the morning
PCT 4 weeks Enclo 12.5mg


GDA with high carb meals (I consume probably 80% of my daily carbs pre and post workout, would I take GDA with both meals or would taking it with the Pre be enough as I would be having my other carb heavy meal within a few hours?)

Taking Vit D, Coq10, Milk Thistle, NAC, Multivit, Omega 3, Codliver oil, Biotin.

Macros will be - 40/30/30 and on non training days I'll reduce carbs by 10% and add to protein.

Does that look any better?

Also is it best to take MK and LGD in the AM or PM, with or without food, or is it personal preference?

 

[ugsavage]

I agree with @Smont LGD after 4 weeks and you will start running into problems and that's with testosterone your proposing a cycle without you would be lucky to recover from anything more than 4 weeks of LGD unless your only running 5 mg and then who is to say your source is even dosed correct

 

[Smont]

I agree with @Smont LGD after 4 weeks and you will start running into problems and that's with testosterone your proposing a cycle without you would be lucky to recover from anything more than 4 weeks of LGD unless your only running 5 mg and then who is to say your source is even dosed correct

You lost me here, taking a cycle without testosterone doesn't make recovery harder, of anything it shuts you down more. It just makes on cycle harder. My point was you don't wanna stop lgd and then wait 5 weeks before pct

 

[ugsavage]

You lost me here, taking a cycle without testosterone doesn't make recovery harder, of anything it shuts you down more. It just makes on cycle harder. My point was you don't wanna stop lgd and then wait 5 weeks before pct

Honestly we disagree on the effectiveness of LGD although I do agree that mg for mg LGD is more effective than most SARMs it is not without a host of metabolic side effects that are unique to LGD 4033. Speaking solely on suppression of HPTA then you are correct in that adding testosterone would make recovery of HPTA and therefore endocrine systems more difficult. However going without testosterone or even a "test base" would give me a host of metabolic side effects most notably at higher doses of 20 mg and up and for anything longer then 4 weeks. I had a few references from the medical literature about this is another post however LGD does indeed interfere with several metabolic processes in the body causing different side effects such as lethargy and brain fog similar to running harsh oral steroids in that aspect, quite possibly even worse then some traditional oral AAS. However the organs take much less of a hit with LGD and SARMs in general however there are several other metabolic systems in the body that are being manipulated as a result of LGD. I would personally stear clear of the stuff but just my personal experience. Not worth putting into my body for sub optimal gains in mass however for someone just starting out with androgens then for sure LGD 4033 would be a good alternative to something like oral AAs and gains could be on par. However not worth it for someone that has been taking androgens for several years.

Just my honest opinion about the compound with or without test someone could run into these problems especially someone with a pre existing medical condition

 

[ugsavage]

Ok, good info. Thanks guys.
Seein as I have the MK now I'm just going to run it

I will amment this so:

Week 1-12: MK-677 25mg (5 days on, 2 days off)
Week 3-12: LGD 15mg
Week 1-12: Dermacrine 4 pumps before bed
Week 1-12: 4 andro 4 pumps in the morning
PCT 4 weeks Enclo 12.5mg


GDA with high carb meals (I consume probably 80% of my daily carbs pre and post workout, would I take GDA with both meals or would taking it with the Pre be enough as I would be having my other carb heavy meal within a few hours?)

Taking Vit D, Coq10, Milk Thistle, NAC, Multivit, Omega 3, Codliver oil, Biotin.

Macros will be - 40/30/30 and on non training days I'll reduce carbs by 10% and add to protein.

Does that look any better?

Also is it best to take MK and LGD in the AM or PM, with or without food, or is it personal preference?

Cycle looks good mate. However I would cut it in half to six weeks. If your still seeing progress and feeling good at six weeks then you can push it to 8 weeks. But anything more than 8 weeks on what is basically an "oral only" cycle is very difficult to sustain and what happens is those last few weeks you are continuing to sacrifice your health for very little gains. Not to mention the time and money adding an extra four weeks would be.

Also your pct definitely needs work. You probably should be taking Clomiphene instead of Enclomiphene. If you wanted to you could run the enclomid the last few weeks of your pct with a test booster but I would run some regular good ol Clomiphene citrate for 3 to 4 weeks. Something like 100/50/50 and then you can switch to enclomid. This way you can avoid the short half life of Enclomiphene because regular clomid will be in your system as it's half life is about ten days

Keep the Mk 677 in during pct

 

[Smont]

Honestly we disagree on the effectiveness of LGD although I do agree that mg for mg LGD is more effective than most SARMs it is not without a host of metabolic side effects that are unique to LGD 4033. Speaking solely on suppression of HPTA then you are correct in that adding testosterone would make recovery of HPTA and therefore endocrine systems more difficult. However going without testosterone or even a "test base" would give me a host of metabolic side effects most notably at higher doses of 20 mg and up and for anything longer then 4 weeks. I had a few references from the medical literature about this is another post however LGD does indeed interfere with several metabolic processes in the body causing different side effects such as lethargy and brain fog similar to running harsh oral steroids in that aspect, quite possibly even worse then some traditional oral AAS. However the organs take much less of a hit with LGD and SARMs in general however there are several other metabolic systems in the body that are being manipulated as a result of LGD. I would personally stear clear of the stuff but just my personal experience. Not worth putting into my body for sub optimal gains in mass however for someone just starting out with androgens then for sure LGD 4033 would be a good alternative to something like oral AAs and gains could be on par. However not worth it for someone that has been taking androgens for several years.

Just my honest opinion about the compound with or without test someone could run into these problems especially someone with a pre existing medical condition

I'm not in the school of taking any sort of sarms solo without some form of an estrogen base. All I was saying is that adding testosterone or a base won't make recovery easier.

My opinion on lgd is based of my experiences. It gives me zero side effects at any dose I've taken and it seems to be the best bang for your buck for results.

I gotta be honest, You kind of went off on a tangent and it didn't really have anything to do with what I was talking about so I'm lost again lol.

 

[Smont]

I'm also a little stoned right now so my reading comprehension might be way off too.

 

[johnny412]

Honestly we disagree on the effectiveness of LGD although I do agree that mg for mg LGD is more effective than most SARMs it is not without a host of metabolic side effects that are unique to LGD 4033. Speaking solely on suppression of HPTA then you are correct in that adding testosterone would make recovery of HPTA and therefore endocrine systems more difficult. However going without testosterone or even a "test base" would give me a host of metabolic side effects most notably at higher doses of 20 mg and up and for anything longer then 4 weeks. I had a few references from the medical literature about this is another post however LGD does indeed interfere with several metabolic processes in the body causing different side effects such as lethargy and brain fog similar to running harsh oral steroids in that aspect, quite possibly even worse then some traditional oral AAS. However the organs take much less of a hit with LGD and SARMs in general however there are several other metabolic systems in the body that are being manipulated as a result of LGD. I would personally stear clear of the stuff but just my personal experience. Not worth putting into my body for sub optimal gains in mass however for someone just starting out with androgens then for sure LGD 4033 would be a good alternative to something like oral AAs and gains could be on par. However not worth it for someone that has been taking androgens for several years.

Just my honest opinion about the compound with or without test someone could run into these problems especially someone with a pre existing medical condition

have you ever even run legit lgd?

 

[ugsavage]

have you ever even run legit lgd?

Yes I have from PRE and it is was definitely legit and at the lower dose around 10 mgs and still saw results in a short amount of time. The other time I ran it was much higher between 30 and 50 mg and that was from chemyo. I did in fact question it's purity and started to research more about the compound. And notably sometimes a chemist can mess with the compound if they do not synthesize the raw ingredient correctly leading to several impurities. However it's still in the literature for LGD 4033 that it was manipulating unique metabolic pathways that no other SARM or AAs would be interfering with

 

[Oliver Kween]

Yes I have from PRE and it is was definitely legit and at the lower dose around 10 mgs and still saw results in a short amount of time. The other time I ran it was much higher between 30 and 50 mg and that was from chemyo. I did in fact question it's purity and started to research more about the compound. And notably sometimes a chemist can mess with the compound if they do not synthesize the raw ingredient correctly leading to several impurities. However it's still in the literature for LGD 4033 that it was manipulating unique metabolic pathways that no other SARM or AAs would be interfering with

Could you tell us more about his "interaction" a bit out of context of the general understanding.
For me LGD acted on LHPTA, it activates hunger, suppression etc.. ¤

Regarding Chemyo, you are not far from emphasizing doubts that have been floating around since lgtp on this brand.
Recently I heard that they haven't been legit for a while. I have RAD and S23 that I will not touch until proven otherwise. I use RC receptor chem which suits me better.
On a small cycle of 4 weeks LGD and PCT Enclomiphene everything went well.

(Also if LGD has any "reactive secrets" on the body.
I'm sure RAD140 too. I'm sure this compound has a harmful effect on dental health. )


¤(This patient's labs suggest that SARMs suppress the pituitary-gonadal axis. Clinical trials have shown that SARMs-including both LGD-4033 and S-23-suppress testosterone, LH, and FSH when given for as little as 2 weeks (Machek et al. 2020;Neil et al. 2018;Clark et al. 2017;Jones et al. 2009;Gao et al. 2005;Yin et al. 2003;Miller et al. 2011;Basaria et al. 2013). It is concerning that most of these studies utilized doses much lower than what this patient was taking, ranging from 0.01 to 3 g/day, compared to this patient's 15 g/day. ... )

Source

 

[Smont]

Yes I have from PRE and it is was definitely legit and at the lower dose around 10 mgs and still saw results in a short amount of time. The other time I ran it was much higher between 30 and 50 mg and that was from chemyo. I did in fact question it's purity and started to research more about the compound. And notably sometimes a chemist can mess with the compound if they do not synthesize the raw ingredient correctly leading to several impurities. However it's still in the literature for LGD 4033 that it was manipulating unique metabolic pathways that no other SARM or AAs would be interfering with

I would question the chemyo, I never used any of there stuff because I had seen soo many bad reviews back then. I feel like there one of those companies that came out hot and after a few batches they started pumping out bunk ****.

On a side note, I see very different results from the injectable lgd then the oral, it doesn't particularly seem a lot "stronger" but the cosmetic effects are different, almost like it's a different drug which doesn’t make a lot of sense I guess. But injectable lgd gives me a full round look doing like 30mgs a day. Oral I get the same strength increases and over the long haul similar results, but there's definitely a fuller rounder look on the injectable version "at least for me" I once used it daily with almost exclusively delt injections for as long as I could tolerate the high frequency repeated spot injections while training shoulders at a high frequency and they definitely took on a new look. And it seems to have stayed, as soon as I hop on cycle now, regardless of what I'm taking they fill right out and start to take shape very quickly. I guess there's a lot of variables to consider, but I credit a lot of it to the lgd injections and frequent delt training

 

[Oliver Kween]

Do you have a favorite brand?

And how many cycle days (oral vs injectable)? and for pct? what are you using?

 

[Smont]

Do you have a favorite brand?

And how many cycle days (oral vs injectable)? and for pct? what are you using?

Are you asking me?

 

[Oliver Kween]

Yep !

don't worry lol
I ask a question her I will not get angry

 

[Smont]

And there

Yep !

For Theoretical entertainment purposes only


I've mostly used pre and maresearch, now I only use ma because I'm a rep and I get products for my rep pay so over the past 2 years I got a lot of free lgd to play around with the doses.

Regardless of oral or injectable I would suggest someone does 6-8 weeks, I wouldn't run it solo without testosterone or 4 andro or at bare minimum dermacrine or dhea.

I don't pct, I've been on testosterone for the past 4 years now. But pct for sarms should be a standard 4 week serm pct in my opinion.

I treat sarms like oral steroids and dose them similarly. 30-50mg for 6-8 weeks

 

[Oliver Kween]

And there


For Theoretical entertainment purposes only


I've mostly used pre and maresearch, now I only use ma because I'm a rep and I get products for my rep pay so over the past 2 years I got a lot of free lgd to play around with the doses.

Regardless of oral or injectable I would suggest someone does 6-8 weeks, I wouldn't run it solo without testosterone or 4 andro or at bare minimum dermacrine or dhea.

I don't pct, I've been on testosterone for the past 4 years now. But pct for sarms should be a standard 4 week serm pct in my opinion.

I treat sarms like oral steroids and dose them similarly. 30-50mg for 6-8 weeks

Perfect thank you,

It joins a few the point of view that I make,
As I'm not on TRT I go PCT, I only have Enclomifene and Nolva on hand.

But for my future Cycle, I stay on the rhythm 4-andro or dermacrine.

As I do small cycles of 4-5 weeks. That's enough for me. I don't want to be too pumped up, but strong enough for my lifts. And especially at ease for Grappling. and not too heavy for mma

thank’s

 

[Smont]

Perfect thank you,

It joins a few the point of view that I make,
As I'm not on TRT I go PCT, I only have Enclomifene and Nolva on hand.

But for my future Cycle, I stay on the rhythm 4-andro or dermacrine.

As I do small cycles of 4-5 weeks. That's enough for me. I don't want to be too pumped up, but strong enough for my lifts. And especially at ease for Grappling. and not too heavy for mma

thank’s

I'm still boxing and grappling a few days a week. I do feel 4 week cycles are a waste of time. Realistically you can only probably add a pound of muscle in a month. Is it really worth turning you natural testosterone production on and off for 0.5-1 lb of tissue that you will probably loose during pct anyways? If your satisfied with where your at then little 4 week runs leading up to a deadline will be benificial, but long term for muscle gains your gonna find yourself spinning your wheels doing short runs with sarms or oral steroids.

 

[GreenMachineX]

I ran a few cycles of mk 25mg daily and lgd 10mg daily for 8 weeks and loved it. But the way @Smont Is talking, I'm questioning whether it was really lgd.

 

[Smont]

I ran a few cycles of mk 25mg daily and lgd 10mg daily for 8 weeks and loved it. But the way @Smont Is talking, I'm questioning whether it was really lgd.

What you mean. Are you questioning if your lgd was actually lgd?

Some ppl do seem to respond good to low dose sarms, not many but some. But I will say that back when they first started getting popular I believe many of the sarms were laced with designer steroids. There were ppl acting like 8-12 mg of sarms were on par with superdrol and there not, not even remotely close.

 

[Oliver Kween]

I ran a few cycles of mk 25mg daily and lgd 10mg daily for 8 weeks and loved it. But the way @Smont Is talking, I'm questioning whether it was really lgd.

Maybe if you mention the brands you will have a hint a lead or indication

I learned that some LGD was not LGD but as Smont said it sometimes covered something else.

Recently I learned that Chemyo hides dirt in its liquid sarms. (I had already ordered s23 and rad140). I had started rad140 and I did not have a good experience. Whereas with capsules from another supplier, I had a big difference which proved to me that it was not ( chemyo )RAD.

For LGD the only LGD that has brought me a lot is UKsarms. While the LGD receptor-chem brought me fog and lethargy. but no gain in mass or strength.

 

[GreenMachineX]

What you mean. Are you questioning if your lgd was actually lgd?

Some ppl do seem to respond good to low dose sarms, not many but some. But I will say that back when they first started getting popular I believe many of the sarms were laced with designer steroids. There were ppl acting like 8-12 mg of sarms were on par with superdrol and there not, not even remotely close.

Maybe if you mention the brands you will have a hint a lead or indication

I learned that some LGD was not LGD but as Smont said it sometimes covered something else.

Recently I learned that Chemyo hides dirt in its liquid sarms. (I had already ordered s23 and rad140). I had started rad140 and I did not have a good experience. Whereas with capsules from another supplier, I had a big difference which proved to me that it was not RAD.

For LGD the only LGD that has brought me a lot is UKsarms. While the LGD receptor-chem brought me fog and lethargy. but no gain in mass or strength.

I was hesitant to mention the brand, but it was Olympus Labs, or Olympus UK whatever. It was one of the best cycles I ever ran

 

[Smont]

I was hesitant to mention the brand, but it was Olympus Labs, or Olympus UK whatever. It was one of the best cycles I ever ran

I already knew that's what you were talking about, I felt like they were spiked with something back then. Only the first couple batches tho and then they seemed watered down. I don't wanna get into a pissing match with the ol guys because they seem to get overly defensive and angry. But years ago I bought all there stuff, it always worked good, almost too good..... then one day it seemed like all there stuff was different and then they went Mia for a while. Who knows? I wish I knew what else was in that original mk/lgd combo because it worked like SD or msten lol. I would gladly buy a few of the original bottles

 

[Smont]

Ok, good info. Thanks guys.
Seein as I have the MK now I'm just going to run it

I will amment this so:

Week 1-12: MK-677 25mg (5 days on, 2 days off)
Week 3-12: LGD 15mg
Week 1-12: Dermacrine 4 pumps before bed
Week 1-12: 4 andro 4 pumps in the morning
PCT 4 weeks Enclo 12.5mg


GDA with high carb meals (I consume probably 80% of my daily carbs pre and post workout, would I take GDA with both meals or would taking it with the Pre be enough as I would be having my other carb heavy meal within a few hours?)

Taking Vit D, Coq10, Milk Thistle, NAC, Multivit, Omega 3, Codliver oil, Biotin.

Macros will be - 40/30/30 and on non training days I'll reduce carbs by 10% and add to protein.

Does that look any better?

Also is it best to take MK and LGD in the AM or PM, with or without food, or is it personal preference?

I like this set up. I like to take the mk and lgd pre workout or with my biggest meal of the day on non - training days.

You could also do the lgd pre workout and the mk before bed. The most important part is just getting your daily dose, both have long enough half lives that timing isint super important

 

[GreenMachineX]

I already knew that's what you were talking about, I felt like they were spiked with something back then. Only the first couple batches tho and then they seemed watered down. I don't wanna get into a pissing match with the ol guys because they seem to get overly defensive and angry. But years ago I bought all there stuff, it always worked good, almost too good..... then one day it seemed like all there stuff was different and then they went Mia for a while. Who knows? I wish I knew what else was in that original mk/lgd combo because it worked like SD or msten lol. I would gladly buy a few of the original bottles

Interesting. I only ran a few of the designer cycles way back when, but SD at least *felt* more toxic than that LGD and my liver Enzymes were always great on that OL LGD. But, doesn't mean it couldn't have been something harsh and I just did well with TUDCA. My liver Enzymes were a little above range with their osta, but not the lgd which I also thought was weird. All in all, I believe it could've been spiked, but not as sure on that as I am about that the first Alphamine by PES being spiked with something absolutely illicit I could've sold that stuff on the street corner

 

[Oliver Kween]

The association MK + LGD going alwyas to affraid me

Because this stack could be dangerous for bones.
LGD‐4033 and MK‐677 use impacts body composition, circulating biomarkers, and skeletal muscle androgenic hormone and receptor content: A case report - Cardaci - 2022 - Experimental Physiology - Wiley Online Library

 

[Smont]

The association MK + LGD going alwyas to affraid me

Because this stack could be dangerous for bones.
LGD‐4033 and MK‐677 use impacts body composition, circulating biomarkers, and skeletal muscle androgenic hormone and receptor content: A case report - Cardaci - 2022 - Experimental Physiology - Wiley Online Library

This study is useless, mk and lgd have positive effects on bone health.

THEY BOTH IMPROVE BONE DENSITY

 

[Oliver Kween]

This study is useless, mk and lgd have positive effects on bone health.

THEY BOTH IMPROVE BONE DENSITY

I would like good to to go in your direction But I'm still too hesitant.
I am looking for experiences that go in a direction that would give another meaning to this study
I walked up to this study, after research. It's the only one of course. I had concluded that it was the competition of the two elements which played against an improvement of the bones.
Just like those doubts I have with MPMD on MK is the degradation it can induce in the brain.
But LGD is already good.

In the future I would like to do LGD+ANAVAR.

 

[Boxfiller]

Cycle looks good mate. However I would cut it in half to six weeks. If your still seeing progress and feeling good at six weeks then you can push it to 8 weeks. But anything more than 8 weeks on what is basically an "oral only" cycle is very difficult to sustain and what happens is those last few weeks you are continuing to sacrifice your health for very little gains. Not to mention the time and money adding an extra four weeks would be.

Also your pct definitely needs work. You probably should be taking Clomiphene instead of Enclomiphene. If you wanted to you could run the enclomid the last few weeks of your pct with a test booster but I would run some regular good ol Clomiphene citrate for 3 to 4 weeks. Something like 100/50/50 and then you can switch to enclomid. This way you can avoid the short half life of Enclomiphene because regular clomid will be in your system as it's half life is about ten days

Keep the Mk 677 in during pct

Cheers man. I appreciate the advice. As I have not used either before it's hard to know how long is best but I would happily go for 8 weeks.
I'm not sure about being able to get clomid and was hoping the enclo would be sufficient.

According to Reddit is it . It's mad how different suggestions are between the two sites.
I've be told 4 different things for the length of cycle, amounts of lgd and mk to take and PCT recommendations.

 

[Oliver Kween]

Cheers man. I appreciate the advice. As I have not used either before it's hard to know how long is best but I would happily go for 8 weeks.
I'm not sure about being able to get clomid and was hoping the enclo would be sufficient.

According to Reddit is it . It's mad how different suggestions are between the two sites.
I've be told 4 different things for the length of cycle, amounts of lgd and mk to take and PCT recommendations.

Reddit...lol

On reddit you can see that eating dog food would be better to take protein powder and stronger in protein!... And guess what it's the guys from TikTok who make Video swallowing dough food or meatball for dogs lifting weights...

Reddit.. a level above TikTok


I wonder what B Russo must have done as a post about it and what he ate as a brand...

 

[DR.D]

Do you guys not get gyno with LGD at 30+mg/d? I can't take more than 20 without getting the itch, but I don't hear anyone ever talk about LGD gyno. Granted, there's usually some test involved too, but no other SARM has ever been a problem like LGD.

 

[Oliver Kween]

Do you guys not get gyno with LGD at 30+mg/d? I can't take more than 20 without getting the itch, but I don't hear anyone ever talk about LGD gyno. Granted, there's usually some test involved too, but no other SARM has ever been a problem like LGD.

Yes it's true, I haven't heard of it from my entourage.
Except it depends if you stack with something else.

When I did my LGD cycle, I always had VIRON behind and REBBIRTH if something should happen. Even though they say it doesn't convert to Estro, I did it without 4AD. Everything went well.

Maybe @Smont has an opinion? or @GreenMachineX

 

[Smont]

Do you guys not get gyno with LGD at 30+mg/d? I can't take more than 20 without getting the itch, but I don't hear anyone ever talk about LGD gyno. Granted, there's usually some test involved too, but no other SARM has ever been a problem like LGD.

Nope, If anything I feel like it has a opposite effect and slightly lowers estrogen, at least when only taking a trt dose of test. I see ppl getting gyno from osta post cycle but haven't come across anyone getting it with lgd.

Mk on the other hand has the ability to cause prolactin gyno but it's rare

 

[Oliver Kween]

Yes they look quite different.
I have also heard of Osta-gyno. But how is this possible? How many doses? 20-30 grams? And without oct or pct?
He must play on Estro much more than LGD.

I wonder if OSta-Enclo-4AD is a good plan...

 

[KvanH]

Ok, good info. Thanks guys.
Seein as I have the MK now I'm just going to run it

I will amment this so:

Week 1-12: MK-677 25mg (5 days on, 2 days off)
Week 3-12: LGD 15mg
Week 1-12: Dermacrine 4 pumps before bed
Week 1-12: 4 andro 4 pumps in the morning
PCT 4 weeks Enclo 12.5mg


GDA with high carb meals (I consume probably 80% of my daily carbs pre and post workout, would I take GDA with both meals or would taking it with the Pre be enough as I would be having my other carb heavy meal within a few hours?)

Taking Vit D, Coq10, Milk Thistle, NAC, Multivit, Omega 3, Codliver oil, Biotin.

Macros will be - 40/30/30 and on non training days I'll reduce carbs by 10% and add to protein.

Does that look any better?

Also is it best to take MK and LGD in the AM or PM, with or without food, or is it personal preference?

I like the cycle setup as well. Usually I don't like the idea of 4-Andro solo (or without another suppressive, more anabolic compound in), since I'd think you'll be just more or less replacing your normal endogenous hormone production with the 4-Andro without any benefit. But as you'd be running the 4-Andro+Dermacrine only for 2 weeks, before adding in the LGD, then I guess you could get a little elevated hormone levels and improved mood, energy and libido from the 4-Andro+Dermacrine combo, since you may not be suppressing yourself too much in the first 2 weeks yet. I've run Dermacrine solo and liked it.

I would personally get more LGD, so you can up the dose, if you feel like it at some point. 15 mg is quite low. But that's just me.

Regarding the Clomid vs Enclo, the only advantage for Clomid over Enclo I can see is the fact that Clomid has been around and been used much longer and there could be some effects and interactions we (or I) don't fully understand and know about. But basically or at least in (my) theory, Enclo is what's good in Clomid. Clomid consists of Zuclomiphene (38%) and Enclomiphene (62%). Clomid is known to induce negative mood sides for some users and to my knowledge, it's thought to be the Zuclomiphene in it to produce those sides. Zuclo has pro-estrogenic properties, whereas Enclo is pro-androgenic. Also, Enclo's half life is 10 h, while Zuclo's is several days, so going by that, Clomid has longer lasting pro-estrogenic effects, than pro-androgenic effects.

I haven't used Clomid, so I don't know how it would affect me, but Tamox has induced some pretty bad mental sides for me in the past. Enclo I didn't feel in any way at all. My last PCT was Enclo 12.5 mg for 30 days and it was by far the best PCT I've done, based on how I felt and bloodwork. I can't see a reason why I would ever choose Clomid over Enclo.

 

[ugsavage]

I like the cycle setup as well. Usually I don't like the idea of 4-Andro solo (or without another suppressive, more anabolic compound in), since I'd think you'll be just more or less replacing your normal endogenous hormone production with the 4-Andro without any benefit. But as you'd be running the 4-Andro+Dermacrine only for 2 weeks, before adding in the LGD, then I guess you could get a little elevated hormone levels and improved mood, energy and libido from the 4-Andro+Dermacrine combo, since you may not be suppressing yourself too much in the first 2 weeks yet. I've run Dermacrine solo and liked it.

I would personally get more LGD, so you can up the dose, if you feel like it at some point. 15 mg is quite low. But that's just me.

Regarding the Clomid vs Enclo, the only advantage for Clomid over Enclo I can see is the fact that Clomid has been around and been used much longer and there could be some effects and interactions we (or I) don't fully understand and know about. But basically or at least in (my) theory, Enclo is what's good in Clomid. Clomid consists of Zuclomiphene (38%) and Enclomiphene (62%). Clomid is known to induce negative mood sides for some users and to my knowledge, it's thought to be the Zuclomiphene in it to produce those sides. Zuclo has pro-estrogenic properties, whereas Enclo is pro-androgenic. Also, Enclo's half life is 10 h, while Zuclo's is several days, so going by that, Clomid has longer lasting pro-estrogenic effects, than pro-androgenic effects.

I haven't used Clomid, so I don't know how it would affect me, but Tamox has induced some pretty bad mental sides for me in the past. Enclo I didn't feel in any way at all. My last PCT was Enclo 12.5 mg for 30 days and it was by far the best PCT I've done, based on how I felt and bloodwork. I can't see a reason why I would ever choose Clomid over Enclo.

Do you have blood work showing the results from your last PCT or your just going by feel? Your correct that by running enclomid will alleviate the mental sides of running a first generation SERM such as clomid and nolva. Although we can't just go by "feeling good" we can only go by blood work

The main problem with enclomid is that it's missing the zuclomiphene isomer. So the half life is very short you would have to dose it multiple times a day and run it for much longer then four weeks if your running a 12 week oral only cycle. For something mild like a six week cycle of Test prop for example then I'm sure 4 weeks of enclomid for PCT would suffice but for anything longer then I would personally be running regular clomid

Also the body needs estrogen. We don't want to eliminate estrogen at any point during cycle or PCT. We just want to keep it low. I always run Adex during my PCT for at least a few weeks at a very low dose usually. 5 mg every third day

 

[KvanH]

Do you have blood work showing the results from your last PCT or your just going by feel? Your correct that by running enclomid will alleviate the mental sides of running a first generation SERM such as clomid and nolva. Although we can't just go by "feeling good" we can only go by blood work

The main problem with enclomid is that it's missing the zuclomiphene isomer. So the half life is very short you would have to dose it multiple times a day and run it for much longer then four weeks if your running a 12 week oral only cycle. For something mild like a six week cycle of Test prop for example then I'm sure 4 weeks of enclomid for PCT would suffice but for anything longer then I would personally be running regular clomid

Also the body needs estrogen. We don't want to eliminate estrogen at any point during cycle or PCT. We just want to keep it low. I always run Adex during my PCT for at least a few weeks at a very low dose usually. 5 mg every third day

Yeah, I did wrote "based on how I felt and bloodwork" = )

My TT was 866 ng/dl in the end of PCT. That's way higher, than my baseline.

Like I said above, the only advantage for Clomid over Enclo, that I can see is the fact that Clomid has been around and been used much longer and there could be some effects and interactions with having the both Enclo and Zuclo, that I don't fully understand and know about. But I would actually think, that the best part about Enclo is, that it's missing the Zuclomiphene, heh.

I dosed the Enclo once a day and seemed to do good. Also, I don't see how the shorter half life would make it so that you'd have to run it for longer?

I also don't see how the same length of PCT with Enclo would be any less effective, than with Clomid? I agree that the lenght of PCT needed will vary based on several things and the lenght of the cycle surely is one of the factors and that only bloodwork will tell, if one has recovered, but if what ever lenght of PCT with Clomid is successful, then the same lenght with Enclo should be as well.

Estro shouldn't be crushed, agreed. But SERMs don't lower estro, just occupy the receptors. I would guess estro to be lower with Clomid+Adex, than with Enclo.

I sometimes run an AI in the midst of PCT and continue for awhile, like 2 weeks after discontinuing the SERM. And that's what I plan on doing the next time, based on my bloodwork with Enclo only PCT the last time.

 

[KvanH]

Addition to above; With the shorter half life the compound doesn't linger around as long as with the longer half life. That's probably what you were alluding to and yeah, that's true. You'd have to keep taking the compound with shorter half life for longer to have it in your system as long as the compound with longer half life. I kind of missed that point, initially.

But as the Enclo in Clomid is what is producing the HPTA activation, then the same lenght for both should do equally well.

 

[ugsavage]

Yeah, I did wrote "based on how I felt and bloodwork" = )

My TT was 866 ng/dl in the end of PCT. That's way higher, than my baseline.

Like I said above, the only advantage for Clomid over Enclo, that I can see is the fact that Clomid has been around and been used much longer and there could be some effects and interactions with having the both Enclo and Zuclo, that I don't fully understand and know about. But I would actually think, that the best part about Enclo is, that it's missing the Zuclomiphene, heh.

I dosed the Enclo once a day and seemed to do good. Also, I don't see how the shorter half life would make it so that you'd have to run it for longer?

I also don't see how the same length of PCT with Enclo would be any less effective, than with Clomid? I agree that the lenght of PCT needed will vary based on several things and the lenght of the cycle surely is one of the factors and that only bloodwork will tell, if one has recovered, but if what ever lenght of PCT with Clomid is successful, then the same lenght with Enclo should be as well.

Estro shouldn't be crushed, agreed. But SERMs don't lower estro, just occupy the receptors. I would guess estro to be lower with Clomid+Adex, than with Enclo.

I sometimes run an AI in the midst of PCT and continue for awhile, like 2 weeks after discontinuing the SERM. And that's what I plan on doing the next time, based on my bloodwork with Enclo only PCT the last time.

While enclomiphene is a viable option for PCT it would only work for a very short cycle less then eight weeks at moderate dosages and running mild compounds. Did you draw bloods again one month prior to PCT? Did you run mild compounds?

My only concern would be that enclo would not sustain your 866 ng/dl for more than a couple of weeks. And again we do need some estrogen during PCT. If enclomiphene is acting as an "anti estrogen" then I don't see how that could be beneficial. We need a balance between AR and ER during pct. It's very important for recovery of natural hormones. We can crush estrogen all day during cycle but once the androgen is out your system your body will no longer think it needs testosterone or estrogen but the truth is that we need both to recover.

The reason that Clomid works so well is because it acts directly on the pituitary gland and on the HPTA unlike other serms that force the production of LH through a negative feedback loop by only working at the pituitary. I would imagine enclo works similar at the pituitary but not so sure it occupy's the same receptors at the HPTA like regular clomid.

My apologies for not seeing that you had blood work taken. I always appreciate your experience and continue to learn from you guys

@Smont
@KvanH

 

[KvanH]

While enclomiphene is a viable option for PCT it would only work for a very short cycle less then eight weeks at moderate dosages and running mild compounds. Did you draw bloods again one month prior to PCT? Did you run mild compounds?

My only concern would be that enclo would not sustain your 866 ng/dl for more than a couple of weeks. And again we do need some estrogen during PCT. If enclomiphene is acting as an "anti estrogen" then I don't see how that could be beneficial. We need a balance between AR and ER during pct. It's very important for recovery of natural hormones. We can crush estrogen all day during cycle but once the androgen is out your system your body will no longer think it needs testosterone or estrogen but the truth is that we need both to recover.

The reason that Clomid works so well is because it acts directly on the pituitary gland and on the HPTA unlike other serms that force the production of LH through a negative feedback loop by only working at the pituitary. I would imagine enclo works similar at the pituitary but not so sure it occupy's the same receptors at the HPTA like regular clomid.

My apologies for not seeing that you had blood work taken. I always appreciate your experience and continue to learn from you guys

@Smont
@KvanH

Well, first of all I want to mention, that if any of my posts here come off as blunt or arrogant even, that's not my intention. There's just so many things we seem to have a differing POV regarding Clomid vs Enclo, and typing is exhausting, lol.

I didn't draw bloods any other time, than that one time, around this last cycle. Yes, I took mild compounds and only for the last 7 weeks of my cut.

I still don't see why you'd consider Enclo to work only for milder cycles and Clomid for longer cycles as well. Remember Clomid IS 62% Enclo. And by my understanding, it's the Enclo that binds to the ER's on the brain and is activating the HPTA.

I don't think any SERM would keep my TT at 800 ng/dl for long, after ceasing the use.

Yes, we do need and want to have sufficient levels of estro, but Enclo - like any other SERM - doesn't lower estro levels. In fact, it indirectly raises estro, since it increases test production and more test -> more estro. And it's more common for people to have estro climb too high, than to have it too low during PCT, and that's why many choose to add a moderate dose of an AI to their PCT, like you did as well with the Adex.

I am very much willing to accept and learn, if there is some important role of the Zuclo in the Comid or the combination of Zuclo+Enclo has some effect I don't know of, but I don't think you've given any reason why Zuclo+Enclo is better, than just Enclo.

Hopefully these points are not seen as nit picking:

"We can crush estrogen all day during cycle but once the androgen is out your system your body will no longer think it needs testosterone or estrogen but the truth is that we need both to recover."

Maybe this is more of term of use issue, but we don't ever want to crush estrogen. Except maybe if one is trying to reverse gyno, but even then it's better to just occupy the ER's on breast tissue with Ralox or Nolva.

"once the androgen is out your system your body will no longer think it needs testosterone or estrogen"

It's actually the other way around; on cycle our body thinks it doesn't need to produce test, as it's detecting the exogenous androgen(s) binding to AR's and when the exogenous androgens are no longer present, the body will (hopefully) start to produce sex hormones again.

 

[ugsavage]

Well, first of all I want to mention, that if any of my posts here come off as blunt or arrogant even, that's not my intention. There's just so many things we seem to have a differing POV regarding Clomid vs Enclo, and typing is exhausting, lol.

I didn't draw bloods any other time, than that one time, around this last cycle. Yes, I took mild compounds and only for the last 7 weeks of my cut.

I still don't see why you'd consider Enclo to work only for milder cycles and Clomid for longer cycles as well. Remember Clomid IS 62% Enclo. And by my understanding, it's the Enclo that binds to the ER's on the brain and is activating the HPTA.

I don't think any SERM would keep my TT at 800 ng/dl for long.

Yes, we do need and want to have sufficient levels of estro, but Enclo - like any other SERM - doesn't lower estro levels. In fact, it indirectly raises estro, since it increases test production and more test -> more estro. And it's more common for people to have estro climb too high, than to have it too low during PCT, and that's why many choose to add a moderate dose of an AI to their PCT, like you did as well with the Adex.

I am very much willing to accept and learn, if there is some important role of the Zuclo in the Comid or the combination of Zuclo+Enclo has some effect I don't know of, but I don't think you've given any reason why Zuclo+Enclo is better, than just Enclo.

Hopefully these points are not seen as nit picking:

"We can crush estrogen all day during cycle but once the androgen is out your system your body will no longer think it needs testosterone or estrogen but the truth is that we need both to recover."

Maybe this is more of term of use issue, but we don't ever want to crush estrogen. Except maybe if one is trying to reverse gyno, but even then it's better to just occupy the ER's on breast tissue with Ralox or Nolva.

"once the androgen is out your system your body will no longer think it needs testosterone or estrogen"

It's actually the other way around; on cycle our body thinks it doesn't need to produce test, as it's detecting the exogenous androgen(s) binding to AR's and when the exogenous androgens are no longer present, the body will (hopefully) start to produce sex hormones again.

Agreed. I should have been more specific; the body will only temporarily think that it no longer needs testosterone or estrogen

 

[ugsavage]

@KvanH
@Oliver Kween
@Boxfiller

I found this in the literature about enclomiphene. Not only does it lower Igf 1 levels in the body; similar to nolvadex another garbage drug for recovering HPTA. Enclomiphene has also been shown to only raise T to 600 ng at the most and not beyond that into the super physiological range like regular Clomid is capable of doing. It's half life is just not long enough. It also has been shown to only keep T at 600 ng for only one week after cessation. That still doesn't mean that enclomiphene can be useful as part of a PCT protocol however I wouldn't regard this drug as superior to Clomid it's quite the opposite. IMO if someone is recovering from heavy androgens then Clomid, Torem, and HCG are your best options. Torem would be a better replacement for enclomiphene if someone cannot handle the sides of regular Clomid. But IMO if your running heavy androgens then running Clomid should be a walk in the park

Testosterone restoration using enclomiphene citrate in men with secondary hypogonadism: a pharmacodynamic and pharmacokinetic study

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[KvanH]

@KvanH
@Oliver Kween
@Boxfiller

I found this in the literature about enclomiphene. Not only does it lower Igf 1 levels in the body; similar to nolvadex another garbage drug for recovering HPTA. Enclomiphene has also been shown to only raise T to 600 ng at the most and not beyond that into the super physiological range like regular Clomid is capable of doing. It's half life is just not long enough. It also has been shown to only keep T at 600 ng for only one week after cessation. That still doesn't mean that enclomiphene can be useful as part of a PCT protocol however I wouldn't regard this drug as superior to Clomid it's quite the opposite. IMO if someone is recovering from heavy androgens then Clomid, Torem, and HCG are your best options. Torem would be a better replacement for enclomiphene if someone cannot handle the sides of regular Clomid. But IMO if your running heavy androgens then running Clomid should be a walk in the park

Testosterone restoration using enclomiphene citrate in men with secondary hypogonadism: a pharmacodynamic and pharmacokinetic study

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Interesting, thanks for sharing

A few things I'd like to point out:

The objective of this study was to determine the effects of Enclo vs TD test for men with secondary hypogonadism. The patients in this study had their baseline TT < 350 ng/dl. So someone trying to recover from a period of taking suppressive compounds, but not suffering from hypogonadism, may have their TT rise higher, than the patienst in this study had (and I have seen higher TT levels with people taking Enclo, my own for example).

The mean age of the patients was over 53 and their mean BMI was 34.7, so on the cusp of obesity class II. Now we don't know about their body composition, but I'm guessing non lifters/athletes.

Also, the TT of ~600 ng/dl on 25 mg of Enclo per day, that you mentioned was a TT0h. The TTmax for that group was 764 ng/dl. Those were also mean values for the whole group (n=12), so some had it higher, some lower. These values are presented in the Table 1.

[In the results abstract section it says:

"After 6 weeks of continuous use, the mean (sd) concentration of total testosterone at day 42 was 604 (160) ng/dL for men taking the highest dose of enclomiphene citrate (enclomiphene citrate, 25 mg daily)"

But in the Table 1 it shows TT0h = 604 ng/dl and TTmean = 586 ng/dl. Not a big deal though]

I only quickly glanced at the IGF-1 part of the results, cause' I'm not too familiar with the ranges and what kind of a drop is meaningful and so on. But obviously lowering IGF-1 is not something we want. I was surprised to see, that the TD test also lowered IGF-1 (although less, than Enclo). It's important to remember though, that Clomid is 62% Enclomiphene. So since Enclo lowers IGF-1, so does Clomid. Unless the Zuclomiphene in Clomid raises IGF-1 to combat the lowering effect of Enclo, or the Zuclo negates the Enclo's effect of lowering IGF-1 via some other mechanism.

 

[KvanH]

@KvanH
@Oliver Kween
@Boxfiller

I found this in the literature about enclomiphene. Not only does it lower Igf 1 levels in the body; similar to nolvadex another garbage drug for recovering HPTA. Enclomiphene has also been shown to only raise T to 600 ng at the most and not beyond that into the super physiological range like regular Clomid is capable of doing. It's half life is just not long enough. It also has been shown to only keep T at 600 ng for only one week after cessation. That still doesn't mean that enclomiphene can be useful as part of a PCT protocol however I wouldn't regard this drug as superior to Clomid it's quite the opposite. IMO if someone is recovering from heavy androgens then Clomid, Torem, and HCG are your best options. Torem would be a better replacement for enclomiphene if someone cannot handle the sides of regular Clomid. But IMO if your running heavy androgens then running Clomid should be a walk in the park

Testosterone restoration using enclomiphene citrate in men with secondary hypogonadism: a pharmacodynamic and pharmacokinetic study

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

More on a opinion/non scientific side of things:

Why do you consider Nolva as a garbage SERM for recovering HPTA? I'ts pretty widely used for PCT and seems to be effective. Is it only the lowering of IGF-1? It's only temporary. And the gyno protection it also provides is a nice addition. Torem should be even better though, like you said.

You keep saying how Clomid is superior to Enclo, but haven't provided anything to base that off on. Again, I don't know all the effects, that the Zuclo isomer has/may have, so I'm not saying, that I know the Enclo to be better. But all the bit of info I've read about it has been negative, pretty much (for what we use SERM's for). I guess I need to try and do more research on it.

I don't think the half life is very meaningful for PCT purposes. If you want to have Enclo in your system for 8 weeks for example, then you take it for 7 weeks. If you want to have a SERM with longer half life in your system for 8 weeks, then you take it for less time.

 

[Rad83]

I can’t remember the last time anyone has mentioned using Torem as a pct or even as a stand alone boost, between cycles.

I’m surely curious about it though!

-
One other thing, that paperwork was from 2013….a lot can happen in 10 years research wise…

 

[Oliver Kween]

I can’t remember the last time anyone has mentioned using Torem as a pct or even as a stand alone boost, between cycles.

I’m surely curious about it though!

-
One other thing, that paperwork was from 2013….a lot can happen in 10 years research wise…

Yes I see that TOREM was a "small" Enclo.
It was used for moderate pct (4 weeks). it remains very solicited when it comes to stacking with nolva, for example.
But no bad experience comes out of it

Also, I had this document from ugsavage in my favorites. I was also amazed for the lowering of the igf1. But does this contradict the fact that some can gain muscle with a pen cycle?

Here are many studies about Enclo from the same sources.

And here the comparative between Enco and other semr


@KvanH
@Boxfiller

 

[ugsavage]

Yes I had him that TOREM was a "small" Enclo.
It was used for moderate pct (4 weeks). it remains very solicited when it comes to stacking with nolva, for example.
But no bad experience comes out of it

Also, I had this document from ugsavage in my favorites. I was also amazed for the lowering of the igf1. But does this contradict the fact that some can gain muscle with a pen cycle?

Here are many studies about Enclo from the same sources.

And here the comparative between Enco and other semr


@KvanH
@Boxfiller

The literature for enclomiphene is limited. The pharmaceutical company's only had the patents for Androxol since 2017 and then the FDA stopped production in 2021 leaving us with very limited studies compared to the first generation serms.

As for Clomid lowering igf 1 levels I do not believe they are lowered but rather normalized in studies when prescribed for acromegaly. Nolvadex will lower Igf 1 levels more then any other SERM but that is just my opinion and not based on bloodwork. This is why nolvadex is better to control estrogen during cycle and not during PCT because most androgens will raise IGF 1 levels most notably Tren but Testosterone as well at TRT levels.

"Results: Three months after CC introduction, serum IGF-1 levels decreased in all patients and reached normal values in 2 patients (25%). Noteworthy, IGF-1 normalization occurred in two of the three patients (66.7%) with baseline IGF-1 levels of up to 2 times the ULN. There was no significant change in GH levels. Conversely, total serum testosterone levels increased in all patients, reaching normal levels in 50% (three of six) of those considered to be hypogonadal (total testosterone < 300 ng/dL). Overall, CC was well tolerated and no patient needed to interrupt the treatment.
Conclusion: Addition of the low cost CC may be hepful to normalize IGF-1 levels in male acromegalic patients not controlled by the combination of SAs and cabergoline, particularly those with mild IGF-1 elevation (up to two times the ULN). Moreover, improvement of testosterone levels can be obtained in patients with concurrent central hypogonadism."

The impact of clomiphene citrate as add-on therapy in male acromegalic patients non-responsive to combined medical therapy | ECE2019 | 21st European Congress of Endocrinology | Endocrine Abstracts

www.endocrine-abstracts.org

.

I know @KvanH had pointed out that testosterone gel actually decreased igf 1 levels however I don't believe so much in the therapeutic value of testosterone gel for TRT when compared to traditional IM testosterone attached to an ester