Isn't Olympus Labs LJ100 dosed low, or do they use a super high quality extract?

[Lynks8]

Link.



I've provided that along with a lot more information which you conveniently ignored. Let's also not forget that you have product claims that LJ100 is the only patented studied extract of LJ which is (here comes a pun?) patently false since it's actually Physta.

I was being objective. Need it be pointed out to everyone that you literally stated that anecdotal feedback on it has been great? Does one really need to point out that anecdotal feedback is pretty much the equivalent of subjective opinions?

You're grasping at straws now Mr. Red Herring.

You said you had a study that proved LJ was bunk. You didn't. When pressed to produce the study, you made incorrect claims about it and the T:E ratio measurement. You still haven't addressed those.

I have not ignored your other cherry-picked studies and your biased interpretations. As mentioned, I will address those later when I have more time.

You were absolutely not being objective. You have an agenda. It's obvious to those of us that know who you are.

I added that anecdotal feedback has been great, which is a relevant response to your subjective claim that LJ is "bunk". It's additionally relevant due to the overwhelming majority of it. This isn't some new, novel herb.

 

[NoAddedHmones]

Your long winded post was was going around in circles. Claiming that I'm deflecting in turn is very much as if you're deflecting what I said. I also rather not go around in circles as that proves to be an utter waste of everybody's time.

I would be pretty upset to if my life revolved around making 1000s of useless argumentative posts on forums as well. Anyways each to their own

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Link.



I've provided that along with a lot more information which you conveniently ignored. Let's also not forget that you have product claims that LJ100 is the only patented studied extract of LJ which is (here comes a pun?) patently false since it's actually Physta.

I was being objective. Need it be pointed out to everyone that you literally stated that anecdotal feedback on it has been great? Does one really need to point out that anecdotal feedback is pretty much the equivalent of subjective opinions?

But let's keep in within what can be found in the literature. The test boosting in humans data came from a study where over 3/4 of the subjects dropped out + it was on hypogonadal men + it only got them over the clinical testosterone deficiency threshold. How is this in any, way, shape, or form suggesting a promising test boosting ingredient?

I don't know if it was mentioned ITT, but here's a study that used 300mg/day Physta for 12 weeks in middle-aged men (30-55 years):

The ratio of testosterone to epitestosterone was measured for the
first time in healthy males during a 12 weeks intake of 300 mg/day
Eurycoma longifolia-extract (Physta®), in a randomized, double-blind
and placebo-controlled trial. In both treatment groups, the T/E ratio
was normal and below 4. A significant increase in muscle strength was
observed for the herbal group compared to placebo in the back and
leg strength test though muscular endurance, flexibility and body fat
composition remained unchanged with 300 mg daily dose of Eurycoma
longifolia over 12 weeks.

http://www.omicsonline.org/the-eurycoma-longifolia-freeze-dried-water-extract-physta-does-not-change-normal-ratios-of-testosterone-to-epitestosterone-in-healthy-males-2161-0673.1000127.pdf

 

[Lynks8]

Also, LJ100 is Physta. That's correct. What's your point? The names are interchangeable.

Grasping at straws...

 

[dynamo]

You're grasping at straws now Mr. Red Herring.

You said you had a study that proved LJ was bunk. You didn't. When pressed to produce the study, you made incorrect claims about it and the T:E ratio measurement. You still haven't addressed those.

I have not ignored your other cherry-picked studies and your biased interpretations. As mentioned, I will address those later when I have more time.

You were absolutely not being objective. You have an agenda. It's obvious to those of us that know who you are.

I added that anecdotal feedback has been great, which is a relevant response to your subjective claim that LJ is "bunk". It's additionally relevant due to the overwhelming majority of it. This isn't some new, novel herb.

Cherry picked? lol.

Point out further human studies than the ones I referenced then.

Lastly, let's allow Mr. Tambi to speak:

"The evidence in humans that are also infertile (hypogonadic) supports a small increase in testosterone, but the lone study in otherwise healthy humans without problems has failed to find an increase in testosterone"

Also, LJ100 is Physta. That's correct. What's your point? The names are interchangeable.

Grasping at straws...

I don't see how 2 extracts from two different companies ='s the same thing.

Lastly, just for fun:

Randomized Clinical Trial on the Use of PHYSTA Freeze-Dried Water Extract of Eurycoma longifolia for the Improvement of Quality of Life and Sexual Well-Being in Men.

^ That study also showed no effect on hormone panels, this study used healthy men.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Also, LJ100 is Physta. That's correct. What's your point? The names are interchangeable.

Grasping at straws...

Physta®, is also marketed in the US under the name LJ100. LJ100 recently has gained self-affirmation GRAS approval as reported in the Nutritional Outlook news (Nov 18th) and in Engredea (Oct 22nd). The self-affirmation GRAS status for the ingredient is an additional guarantee of our commitment to our customers on our quality assurance taken to ensure safety and efficacy of Physta®/LJ100.

http://www.biotropicsingredients.com/news/?id=6

 

[dynamo]

Ah! Thanks! Was not aware.

Anyway, here's some fun:

Randomized Clinical Trial on the Use of PHYSTA Freeze-Dried Water Extract of Eurycoma longifolia for the Improvement of Quality of Life and Sexual Well-Being in Men.

^ That study also showed no effect on hormone panels, this study used healthy men.

 

[Lynks8]

Cherry picked? lol.

Point out further human studies than the ones I referenced then.

Lastly, let's allow Mr. Tambi to speak:

"The evidence in humans that are also infertile (hypogonadic) supports a small increase in testosterone, but the lone study in otherwise healthy humans without problems has failed to find an increase in testosterone"



I don't see how 2 extracts from two different companies ='s the same thing.

1. Yes, you're cherry picking. I will post more when I get home and have more than mobile access.

2. I don't believe that's the only Tambi study and I don't believe that quote accurately summarizes his position on LJ.

3. lol.... They're not two different companies. Your bias is affecting your objectivity and apparently your reading comprehension. Check again.

 

[dynamo]

1. Yes, you're cherry picking. I will post more when I get home and have more than mobile access.

2. I don't believe that's the only Tambi study and I don't believe that quote accurately summarizes his position on LJ.

3. lol.... They're not two different companies. Your bias is affecting your objectivity and apparently your reading comprehension. Check again.

Yup, muscleupcrohn pointed it out, so my mistake.

Here, for your enjoyment:

Randomized Clinical Trial on the Use of PHYSTA Freeze-Dried Water Extract of Eurycoma longifolia for the Improvement of Quality of Life and Sexual Well-Being in Men.

^ That study also showed no effect on hormone panels, this study used healthy men.

Speaking of cherry picking, it seems that what is being cherry picked here are study results. Pointing out study results without placing them into context. Again, pretty sure most people this stuff is being sold to are not hypogonadal men (and even for hypogonadal men, the improvements are not exactly all that remarkable).

 

[georgetown]

Ah! Thanks! Was not aware.

Anyway, here's some fun:

Randomized Clinical Trial on the Use of PHYSTA Freeze-Dried Water Extract of Eurycoma longifolia for the Improvement of Quality of Life and Sexual Well-Being in Men.

^ That study also showed no effect on hormone panels, this study used healthy men.

Dude stop

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Ah! Thanks! Was not aware.

Anyway, here's some fun:

Randomized Clinical Trial on the Use of PHYSTA Freeze-Dried Water Extract of Eurycoma longifolia for the Improvement of Quality of Life and Sexual Well-Being in Men.

^ That study also showed no effect on hormone panels, this study used healthy men.

The study did note that "subjects with BMI ≥ 25 kg/m2 significantly improved in fat mass lost," which shows some potential value.

Libido and various aspects of sexual performance were also improved, which is potentially valuable.

I think a lot of the arguing here is over semantics and/or technicalities. While tongkat ali may not be an incredible testosterone booster in healthy young adults, it isn't a bunk supplement, and does have potential uses and value.

 

[dynamo]

Dude stop

Read the study I pointed out. If you're going to ignore it, I can't help you there.

The study did note that "subjects with BMI ≥ 25 kg/m2 significantly improved in fat mass lost," which shows some potential value.

Libido and various aspects of sexual performance were also improved, which is potentially valuable.

I think a lot of the arguing here is over semantics and/or technicalities. While tongkat ali may not be an incredible testosterone booster in healthy young adults, it isn't a bunk supplement, and does have potential uses and value.

It's mainly sold as a t-booster, so for that use it is bunk.

I'll say this, LJ does some things. The extent of the things it does for healthy individuals however has not panned out all that well. Apart from libido enhancement.

 

[Lynks8]

1. Did you even look at the results of that study?

2. Now you're editing your posts after-the-fact to add arguments in so it looks like they weren't addressed? This is like wrestling with a pig. Stupid of me to engage.

 

[dynamo]

1. Did you even look at the results of that study?

2. Now you're editing your posts after-the-fact to add arguments in so it looks like they weren't addressed? This is like wrestling with a pig. Stupid of me to engage.

Other than insults and deflection, anything else?

Also yes, I did look at the results of that study I pointed out.

"Throughout the study no significant changes among the E. longifolia subjects or differences to placebo are seen in hormonal profiles (testosterones, IGF-1, SHBG, DHEASO4). Analysis of covariance (ANCOVA) shows that there are no differences between groups at week 6 and week 12 in total testosterone and free testosterone after adjusting to their baseline values. During the trial the mean values of total testosterone level are in the range of 15.079 nmol/L to 16.604 nmol/L in subjects on the herbal product and in the placebo group these values range from 18.120 nmol/ to 19.051 nmol/L."

 

[malin]

The study did note that "subjects with BMI ≥ 25 kg/m2 significantly improved in fat mass lost," which shows some potential value.

Libido and various aspects of sexual performance were also improved, which is potentially valuable.


I think a lot of the arguing here is over semantics and/or technicalities. While tongkat ali may not be an incredible testosterone booster in healthy young adults, it isn't a bunk supplement, and does have potential uses and value.[/QUOTE

Well , it is being marked as a test booster , and if in fact does not raise a test then it is not just a matter of semantics ,
I could market a creatine as a test booster and when someone calls me on it , I could say ,, well but it does all kinds of other cool $ith ,,
Just for a record i do not have a ,, pig in this wrestling match,, nor do I know if lj100 is or isn't a test booster , just thinking that healthy debate is good for everyone ( no need for a epithets )
Good day

 

[ma70]

This thread got pretty good....

 

[Segansational]

Well, only read half of this because towards the end it seems to be just a back and forth... But LJ100 is Physta. Let's be clear, they are the same, using different trade names whether sold under US or ex-US license. So studies supporting or not for one are applicable for the other. Also, while most studies were done in hypogonadal men or ones with fertility issues, on this forum at least, I would surmise that most are using LJ100 in PCT states coming off cycle where normal function would be suppressed.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

... and if only using LJ in PCT (what!) then you are left with the same'ish minuscule increase that was touted for DAA - in the 50%'ish range. What's 50% of 200? So you go from 200 to 300? Oh sign me up

 

[dynamo]

... and if only using LJ in PCT (what!) then you are left with the same'ish minuscule increase that was touted for DAA - in the 50%'ish range. What's 50% of 200? So you go from 200 to 300? Oh sign me up

Ding ding ding. Nailed the point I was making. An impressive looking percentage increase of a small number is in reality just a small increase.

Well, only read half of this because towards the end it seems to be just a back and forth... But LJ100 is Physta. Let's be clear, they are the same, using different trade names whether sold under US or ex-US license. So studies supporting or not for one are applicable for the other. Also, while most studies were done in hypogonadal men or ones with fertility issues, on this forum at least, I would surmise that most are using LJ100 in PCT states coming off cycle where normal function would be suppressed.

It kind of puts it up there with DAA tbh. End of the day, the SERM protocols would be doing virtually all the work so we come back to the original point of why bother investing in it if it's doing so little? Every little bit helps is a nice warm and fuzzy feeling but in the practical sense if something really isn't doing all that much, it's a bit of a waste of time. Just IMO of course.

 

[Shiznown]

Ding ding ding. Nailed the point I was making. An impressive looking percentage increase of a small number is in reality just a small increase.



It kind of puts it up there with DAA tbh. End of the day, the SERM protocols would be doing virtually all the work so we come back to the original point of why bother investing in it if it's doing so little? Every little bit helps is a nice warm and fuzzy feeling but in the practical sense if something really isn't doing all that much, it's a bit of a waste of time. Just IMO of course.

So how's Dermacine compare?

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Ding ding ding. Nailed the point I was making. An impressive looking percentage increase of a small number is in reality just a small increase.



It kind of puts it up there with DAA tbh. End of the day, the SERM protocols would be doing virtually all the work so we come back to the original point of why bother investing in it if it's doing so little? Every little bit helps is a nice warm and fuzzy feeling but in the practical sense if something really isn't doing all that much, it's a bit of a waste of time. Just IMO of course.

The increased libido and potential adaptogenic effects could make it worth adding. But yeah, it's not an amazing test booster.

 

[dynamo]

So how's Dermacine compare?

Dermacrine is not a test booster. The reason one uses it is in hopes that the DHEA will convert to test. You're essentially trying to use it as a "test base." I feel that a much better test base would be 4-dhea and optionally epiandro as well to cover the DHT side of things.

 

[Danes]

Someone called me

 

[rtmilburn]

Someone called me

And he showed up weve been getting in discussions on lj100. Some have pointed out that lj has shown that it doesnt increase test in healthy males. I remeber you posting a studying that stated others wise. Also want your opinion overall as your a smart guy!

 

[Danes]

And he showed up weve been getting in discussions on lj100. Some have pointed out that lj has shown that it doesnt increase test in healthy males. I remeber you posting a studying that stated others wise. Also want your opinion overall as your a smart guy!

Thank you for the kind words
May I ask who say it does NOT increase T levels in healthy males?
Actually it does and the increase may ofcourse vary from person to person.
It does not need any studies because I have couple of examples I would like to share with you :
Healthy male 53 years old (living here where i live and he is Sheriff) active guy. But always complained of his low energy levels.he took bloodwork and everything was fine.His T levels was 375 and 2-3months after 600-800mg LJ100, his levels was almost 600. It is almost double! Did it gave him big muscles? Ofcourse not, but his energy level increased a lot, 1000times better libido and much more positive agression!
Other guy 28 years old. Active witj T levels of 470. After consuming 800mg LJ100, HIS levels went to 680. Big increase? No but it did increase and he got much more energy, better libido and much more.

 

[Danes]

Dermacrine is not a test booster. The reason one uses it is in hopes that the DHEA will convert to test. You're essentially trying to use it as a "test base." I feel that a much better test base would be 4-dhea and optionally epiandro as well to cover the DHT side of things.

This is true. Or using Trest (which is even more potent but illegal now)

 

[dynamo]

Thank you for the kind words
May I ask who say it does NOT increase T levels in healthy males?
Actually it does and the increase may ofcourse vary from person to person.
It does not need any studies because I have couple of examples I would like to share with you :
Healthy male 53 years old (living here where i live and he is Sheriff) active guy. But always complained of his low energy levels.he took bloodwork and everything was fine.His T levels was 375 and 2-3months after 600-800mg LJ100, his levels was almost 600. It is almost double! Did it gave him big muscles? Ofcourse not, but his energy level increased a lot, 1000times better libido and much more positive agression!
Other guy 28 years old. Active witj T levels of 470. After consuming 800mg LJ100, HIS levels went to 680. Big increase? No but it did increase and he got much more energy, better libido and much more.

What else did these guys take prior and during? What times of day were the bloods drawn for each test? There's a slew of variables which would affect t-levels of blood draws.

As for subjective feelings such as aggression, libido, sense of well being, etc. These are subjective markers which can be significantly affected by placebo.

How is it that you have somehow found two subjects with such great results yet in the study which I had pointed out this was not the case? One would also have to wonder how the levels you are reporting are close to if not almost exactly a 47% increase which has only ever been demonstrated in hypogonadal men (and that's an average percentage increase in that study, it was that each subject saw a 47% increase)?

At the end of the day, you're still giving two anecdotes whilst saying what can be summed up as "Who cares about studies!"

Even the doctor which has been very vocal about LJ has even come out to state that even in hypogonadal men, the effects are modest and likely based on what we know, would not actually benefit healthy young men.

 

[Danes]

What else did these guys take prior and during? What times of day were the bloods drawn for each test? There's a slew of variables which would affect t-levels of blood draws.

As for subjective feelings such as aggression, libido, sense of well being, etc. These are subjective markers which can be significantly affected by placebo.

How is it that you have somehow found two subjects with such great results yet in the study which I had pointed out this was not the case? One would also have to wonder how the levels you are reporting are close to if not almost exactly a 47% increase which has only ever been demonstrated in hypogonadal men (and that's an average percentage increase in that study, it was that each subject saw a 47% increase)?

At the end of the day, you're still giving two anecdotes whilst saying what can be summed up as "Who cares about studies!"

Even the doctor which has been very vocal about LJ has even come out to state that even in hypogonadal men, the effects are modest and likely based on what we know, would not actually benefit healthy young men.

I will answer first to your last part:
If you didnt know , Dr.Tambi has tested 800mg in healthy males (not so many) and T levels increased .

If you really knew how good TA is and how it works, you may know it actually increase Energy levels. Me as example, I got to much energy from it. Felt tense and could not relax at all. My body was like over-stimmed. Could not even sleep. Placebo? I dont think so!

If you think libido is caused by placebo then its the best placebo ever. Viagra and Cialis is not needed either when we can just use placebo compounds to fix those issues.

If you never have tried TA, I really recommend you to try

 

[dynamo]

I will answer first to your last part:
If you didnt know , Dr.Tambi has tested 800mg in healthy males (not so many) and T levels increased .

If you really knew how good TA is and how it works, you may know it actually increase Energy levels. Me as example, I got to much energy from it. Felt tense and could not relax at all. My body was like over-stimmed. Could not even sleep. Placebo? I dont think so!

If you think libido is caused by placebo then its the best placebo ever. Viagra and Cialis is not needed either when we can just use placebo compounds to fix those issues.

If you never have tried TA, I really recommend you to try

Again, the subjective markers does not necessarily mean a boost in testosterone levels. I'm not saying that those subjective markers are not possibly being affected (since there's a good amount of data supporting it as an aphrodisiac), I'm pointing out the fact that the data behind it boosting testosterone levels are as of now, not well supported at all.

Tambi has only really ever been a presenter at conferences and there is no known published studies by him that I can recall. So at this point saying that he has tested it on healthy males using 800 mg is the equivalent of just taking what someone told you at face value rather than looking at data backed back research.

 

[Danes]

What else did these guys take prior and during? What times of day were the bloods drawn for each test? There's a slew of variables which would affect t-levels of blood draws.

As for subjective feelings such as aggression, libido, sense of well being, etc. These are subjective markers which can be significantly affected by placebo.

How is it that you have somehow found two subjects with such great results yet in the study which I had pointed out this was not the case? One would also have to wonder how the levels you are reporting are close to if not almost exactly a 47% increase which has only ever been demonstrated in hypogonadal men (and that's an average percentage increase in that study, it was that each subject saw a 47% increase)?

At the end of the day, you're still giving two anecdotes whilst saying what can be summed up as "Who cares about studies!"

Even the doctor which has been very vocal about LJ has even come out to state that even in hypogonadal men, the effects are modest and likely based on what we know, would not actually benefit healthy young men.

Those guys are not using any supplements nor medicines

 

[dynamo]

Those guys are not using any supplements nor medicines

Again, anecdotal evidence which suspiciously seems to fall in the same percentage increase as what was seen in the study for hypogonadal men (even more suspicious would be the fact that the percentage increase reported in the study was the average of all the subjects, not the percentage increase per subject). Regardless of that, still anecdotal, no controls, we really don't know what is what with those blood tests or if there were any blood tests to begin with,

By the way, viagra and cialis are not libido enhancers. They are PDE5 inhibitors, which does not actually affect sex drive.

 

[Danes]

Again, anecdotal evidence which suspiciously seems to fall in the same percentage increase as what was seen in the study for hypogonadal men. Regardless of that, still anecdotal, no controls, we really don't know what is what with those blood tests or if there were any blood tests to begin with,

By the way, viagra and cialis are not libido enhancers. They are PDE5 inhibitors, which does not actually affect sex drive.

I know that but it gives boners.

Believe what you want, I know TA works and of all T boosting ingredients, it is one of those which is really worth taking. The quality and Dose is very important ofcourse.

 

[dynamo]

I know that but it gives boners.

Believe what you want, I know TA works and of all T boosting ingredients, it is one of those which is really worth taking. The quality and Dose is very important ofcourse.

Having an erection or easier time getting an erection does not necessarily mean you've increased your libido. They really are two different things.

 

[Danes]

I do respect your skeptical part and I am skeptical to everything until I see things by my eyes

 

[Danes]

Having an erection or easier time getting an erection does not necessarily mean you've increased your libido. They really are two different things.

With TA, both got increased Sex drive, libido, longer erection ++

 

[dynamo]

With TA, both got increased Sex drive, libido, longer erection ++

Which again can be placebo as well but hey, whatever floats your boat.

 

[Woody]

Which again can be placebo as well but hey, whatever floats your boat.

My boat floats by weighing less than the amount of water it displaces.

 

[Jiigzz]

While anecdote is obviously extremely prone to placebo, if you experience what the product claims, isn't that worth taking the product? I think most people know T boosters aren't really going to help muscle growth in the short term, but if they sense improvements, real or not, sometimes it is worth the expense.

It is worth noting that even if those claiming to be sensitive to something often physically experience those symptoms, simply because they believed they would.

Take the MSG study for example where people who claimed to be MSG sensitive ate MSG containing food and experienced a wide range of symptoms (like headaches) and then ate what they told was MSG free food (but still had it in there) and *gasp* experienced nothing. The brain is remarkable in this regard (there's also the steroid study where they were told they were consuming steroids and weren't and experienced huge improvements in strength simply because they thought they were geared).

In short, it is entirely possible to improve anecdotal markers and objective markers even in the absence of physiological change

 

[Danes]

Which again can be placebo as well but hey, whatever floats your boat.

Ofcourse , but if it gives bettet erection, libido, sexdrive, more testosterone. Placebo or not, if it works that way, that is amazing.
Personaly, my libido use to be anoying on TA. Waking up in the middle of the night with sick boner, in the morning, and many times during the day. Even not thinking about sex.

 

[Hyde]

Ofcourse , but if it gives bettet erection, libido, sexdrive, more testosterone. Placebo or not, if it works that way, that is amazing.

I'm of this opinion. Nobody appears to be rolling over from Lj poisoning, I'm spending $23 for months of it, and I feel it improves my sex life. Studies have their place and are by no means worthless...but they just aren't something I live and die by.

This isn't a rebuttal; just adding to the discussion as someone with firsthand experience playing with the stuff. Been enjoying it and no regrets here.

 

[Rob1882]

The it works for me? Is that like the Amentoflavone Defense?

 

[NewAgeMayan]

Its the BSL Twins!

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Is anyone here expecting these "test boosting" ingredients to provide muscle/strength benefits associated with supraphysiological levels of testosterone and actual test use? That's not going to happen. So if you can get the subjective benefits often associated with increased test (increased libido, improved mood and energy, etc) is it really that bad? Just something to think about.

 

[ma70]

Its the BSL Twins!

Nice one.

Anyways, best part about these forums is we all have opinions, and stuff that works for some may not work for others. People can tell me ecdysterone/laxogenin are bunk all they want (and they can cite the studies to prove their point). If I'm placeboing myself into somehow being able to recover quicker and workout more often, that's fine by me. I mean, how long did it take stuff like ArA to become recognized? Haven't been in the supplement game that long, but from what I remember, it's a really old ingredient that seems to have studies backing it only recently?

 

[ma70]

Is anyone here expecting these "test boosting" ingredients to provide muscle/strength benefits associated with supraphysiological levels of testosterone and actual test use? That's not going to happen. So if you can get the subjective benefits often associated with increased test (increased libido, improved mood and energy, etc) is it really that bad? Just something to think about.

This is why you're my favorite Performax rep. Hahahaha. Test boosters will never provide anything like the "real stuff", as people like to say. But if a test booster is giving you better libido, energy, etc. then it's doing it's job anyway.

 

[Danes]

Is anyone here expecting these "test boosting" ingredients to provide muscle/strength benefits associated with supraphysiological levels of testosterone and actual test use? That's not going to happen. So if you can get the subjective benefits often associated with increased test (increased libido, improved mood and energy, etc) is it really that bad? Just something to think about.

People are expecting to much from those test boosting compounds but I mean a good Test boosting compounds such as solid dose of TA can give also indirectly gains.
Increased Libido,sex drive, mood, energy ++. It means you push more at gym. Increased T can also give better sleep and increased sleep quality can give better gains.the list is almost endless.

 

[Danes]

Nice one.

Anyways, best part about these forums is we all have opinions, and stuff that works for some may not work for others. People can tell me ecdysterone/laxogenin are bunk all they want (and they can cite the studies to prove their point). If I'm placeboing myself into somehow being able to recover quicker and workout more often, that's fine by me. I mean, how long did it take stuff like ArA to become recognized? Haven't been in the supplement game that long, but from what I remember, it's a really old ingredient that seems to have studies backing it only recently?

Agreed.
People are still laughing of ecdysteroids and even some of those "experts" on forums are saying its just crap.
I know for sure how Turkesterone works for my body. Giving me more size and strength without changing diet or training routine. Even bloodwork showed more red blood cells (turkesterone is well known for that).
Getting comments from my friends like "you looks pumped, you need to be on something, and even parents saying I have increased size". That is ofcourse just placebo

 

[Jiigzz]

Agreed.
People are still laughing of ecdysteroids and even some of those "experts" on forums are saying its just crap.
I know for sure how Turkesterone works for my body. Giving me more size and strength without changing diet or training routine. Even bloodwork showed more red blood cells (turkesterone is well known for that).
Getting comments from my friends like "you looks pumped, you need to be on something, and even parents saying I have increased size". That is ofcourse just placebo

This is why we placebo control though, people don't know how things work for them regardless of what they think. You cannot objectively measure yourself based on feelings and even just by monitoring strength. You need to compare to placebo so that you can measure whether things happen as a result of training or not.

Also increased RBC by itself isn't too useful, you also need increased uptake at muscle sites because usually it is because of reduced uptake and not delivery that is a hinderance. Yes both combined, but improve the former and not the latter and nothing will change.

 

[Hyde]

I also should point out that I'm taking the LJ explicitly for better sexlife. It seems to help a bit in energy too (and therefore drive, motivation, etc as a natural extension of feeling less fatigue) but I have zero expectations for my test levels. If I want real gains from an exogenous source, I'd get on steroids again. This is just for better living.

 

[hsk]

Been taking 800mg twice daily (so 1.6g/day) of 100:1 tongkat Ali extract from Bulk Supplements for 5 days on 2 off for a bit now and it doesn't seem to be as strong as LJ100 per mg at all, but the shear dosage seems to be having more effect than 200mg of LJ100 had. And it was only ~$23 for at least a 2 month supply at that dosage. The downside is I'm shooting back a 1/4 tsp of powder 2x a day that tastes like burnt fireworks, but you don't wanna pay for capped product you have to buck up lol

I've been experimenting with Longjack/Tongkat AliI since last year. In the interest of science and to satisfy my own personal curiosity, I've been trying different suppliers and brands myself to compare. I bought 1 kg of the Bulk Supplements 100:1 Tongkat Ali Longjack and capped all of it using size 00 caps. The caps are approximately 750-800mg per cap. I've been running 5 caps daily for the past 3 weeks and started to feel it working by the end of week 2. I just bumped to 6 caps yesterday and today, and felt it a bit more. This extract is real, but you have to use a significant amount, or at least I do. I was able to make 1300+ size 00 caps from this 1kg which cost about $113 shipped. In a way it was pricey upfront, but I have enough supply to play with the dosages for a few months. So far, I am more or less getting the benefits of real Tongkat Ali extract I have experienced similar to OL LJ100, and 2% Eurycomanone Longjack Extract. I found another bulk supplier that has a 200:1 that has no maltodextrin carrier in it. Once I'm done with the Bulk Supplements powder, I'll be picking that one up to try next.

Timing wise, I take my biggest dose in the morning 2-3 caps with the rest of my morning pre-workout supps. I train fasted in the morning. Then I do 2 caps post workout with my shake. I go home and have my first meal within and hour and then I usually take 1 more cap about 30-60min before my next meal.

All the brands I have tried, I have run high doses. Keep in mind everyone is different, but apparently I am able to take higher doses and I seem to get more benefits from higher doses. So for the most part I will try to experiment with bulk powders to get the most bang for my buck. I tried buying bulk LJ100 from the main distributor but it was way too expensive. I am mostly just looking for a decent quality extract that is fair for the price.