Help with Fertility - Dr. wants off Test and on Clomid or HCG

[corndog]

I am on test-e for low test and all is working good. It has almost totally eliminated my depression and sex life is back to normal.

I am looking at having a vasectomy reversal to have a 3rd child. I had a biopsy done on my testicles which showed I had no active/living sperm. This obviously was a typical result with being on test.

My urologist mentioned on getting off test for a while and trying either HCG or Clomid to get my body to produce its own test and to see if I can start making me produce good sperm.

Can any elaborate on this. My urologist doesnt like me getting of test because he knows how much it helped my depression and bi-polar but he went to a medical meeting where the speaker who is a urologist and fertility specialist said I should stop the test and start either HCG or Clomid. He prefered Clomid for whatever reason.

Does Clomid help low E2?

Anyway thanks for any advice and comments.

I really hate to think about getting of test which would probably end up being for a long time.

 

[JanSz]

I am on test-e for low test and all is working good. It has almost totally eliminated my depression and sex life is back to normal.

I am looking at having a vasectomy reversal to have a 3rd child. I had a biopsy done on my testicles which showed I had no active/living sperm. This obviously was a typical result with being on test.

My urologist mentioned on getting off test for a while and trying either HCG or Clomid to get my body to produce its own test and to see if I can start making me produce good sperm.

Can any elaborate on this. My urologist doesnt like me getting of test because he knows how much it helped my depression and bi-polar but he went to a medical meeting where the speaker who is a urologist and fertility specialist said I should stop the test and start either HCG or Clomid. He prefered Clomid for whatever reason.

Does Clomid help low E2?

Anyway thanks for any advice and comments.

I really hate to think about getting of test which would probably end up being for a long time.

I would ignore their recomendation on suspending testosterone, (at first).
I would give it the 3 months plus additional 3 months.

If after 6 - 9 months not succesful, stop testosterone supplementation, see if it actually makes a difference.

Use only the freshest HCG, they come in 2000iu ampoules.
You may want to have a good stash of Arimidex at hand.
Keep E2 (25-29)
per
968-2 Estradiol, Ultrasensitive, LC/MS/MS
repeat testing every 3-4 weeks untill you feel stabilized.
==================================================================
Data Sheet


ON FERTILITY

Data Sheet


Dosage In The Male
Hypogonadotropic hypogonadism
1,000-2,000 I.U. PREGNYL, two to three times per week. If the main complaint is subfertility, additional doses of an FSH-containing preparation (75 I.U. FSH) daily or two to three times per week, may be given. This treatment should be continued for at least three months before any improvement in spermatogenesis can be expected. During this treatment testosterone replacement therapy should be suspended. Once achieved, the improvement may in some cases be maintained by hCG alone.

 

[corndog]

Thanks for the info. I will need to do lots a research on this. Its a pretty complicated thing. I dont want to stop the test at all but want to see if I can make good sperm obviously before I spend the $$$$$$$ on getting a vasectomy reversal.

I thought Clomid helped reduce E2 but obviously I need to learn more on that. My E2 right now is high on the test alone 55 so started L-dex few weeks back. Think I need to up the freakency to EOD (how much)? My niplles still tingle a little so E must still be high.

Wow, this whole baby thing is gonna be a major pain in the @ss. I didnt have low test issues when I had my 2 kids years ago so this wasnt a issue.

I guess I better start doing some studying.

 

[cpileri]

Btdt

Sir,
Hi, first post here. Been reading and lurking but i do feel i can help you with this, as we have done this 4 times now successfully.
Success defined as a live birth.

"We" defined vaguely (to preserve privacy); suffice it to say that I am either the patient, the doctor, or the patient's wife.

Bottom Line Up Front: 3 phases. Phase 1: exogenous testosterone and Human Chorionic Gonadotropin until patient's own testosterone is normal. Phase 2: drop the testosterone, stay on hCG, add menotropins (recombinant or purified LH/FSH) until woman is pregnant(*). Phase 3: back to testosterone alone.

Details: (some accuracy sacrificed for brevity)
For a hypogonadal male on long-term testosterone therapy, the goals of fertility require sperm numbers, sperm maturation, and sperm quality.
Phase 3 is where you are now. Injecting T, no T of your own, no Leuteinizing Hormone (LH), no Follicle Stimulating Hormone (FSH), and no sperm.
Phase 1 leaves you on the T, so you feel OK, and adds hCG to bring your T production back up. You have to get your own body (the Interstitial cells of Leydig in the testes) to make T because the local concentration of T and DHT required for normal sperm maturation is hundreds of times higher than the rest of the circulation- you can't inject that much, believe me! An unenlightened doc might say you are risking 'doubling up' on the testosterone with this combo. Don't worry, it wont go that high. You will notice after 3-4 (or maybe 6) months a bump in your T levels on blood tests from your normal steady state level; and then you will drop the injected T and see that your own T is a meager 300-400. but that's enough for fertility. BTW: if it takes longer than 6 months to see your own T come back, then there is a possibility that this isn't going to work. That is, your testes are shut down permanently. Bummer.

After your own T comes back, Phase II: you add FSH to get the sperm quality and especially the numbers up. you will get a few normal sperm with just the hCG, but you need to add (not substitute, add) FSH to get both quantity and quality. After another 4-6 months you will get a semenalysis to see if its working. You will stay on the FSH, with either hCG or LH/FSH combo, until pregnancy.

(*)Some people stay on the lh/fsh for the first trimester if there is a risk of the woman losing the pregnancy.

What your doctor seems to propose is skipping Phase I. The plan WILL work for fertility (if it is going to work at all). But you will feel like heck. Using the clomiphene to (try to) raise LH and FSH can work if your pituitary gland is ready to come back to production. But it is not usually very successful in pts with long term T use. The clomid effect just isn't that powerful. But heck, its worth a try and would solve all the above problems if it works.

Another angle you may take with the doc is 'fecundity' which is the ability to copulate. by skipping phase I, you compromise fecundity. Any decent endocrinologist/fertility specialist should be wise to the intertwined concepts of fertility and fecundity as regards to successful reproduction.

I know I left out a bunch of info for the sake of brevity. So feel free to ask me any questions you want.

Good Luck!
C-

 

[JanSz]

Sir,
Hi, first post here. Been reading and lurking but i do feel i can help you with this, as we have done this 4 times now successfully.
Success defined as a live birth.

"We" defined vaguely (to preserve privacy); suffice it to say that I am either the patient, the doctor, or the patient's wife.

Bottom Line Up Front: 3 phases. Phase 1: exogenous testosterone and Human Chorionic Gonadotropin until patient's own testosterone is normal. Phase 2: drop the testosterone, stay on hCG, add menotropins (recombinant or purified LH/FSH) until woman is pregnant(*). Phase 3: back to testosterone alone.

Details: (some accuracy sacrificed for brevity)
For a hypogonadal male on long-term testosterone therapy, the goals of fertility require sperm numbers, sperm maturation, and sperm quality.
Phase 3 is where you are now. Injecting T, no T of your own, no Leuteinizing Hormone (LH), no Follicle Stimulating Hormone (FSH), and no sperm.
Phase 1 leaves you on the T, so you feel OK, and adds hCG to bring your T production back up. You have to get your own body (the Interstitial cells of Leydig in the testes) to make T because the local concentration of T and DHT required for normal sperm maturation is hundreds of times higher than the rest of the circulation- you can't inject that much, believe me! An unenlightened doc might say you are risking 'doubling up' on the testosterone with this combo. Don't worry, it wont go that high. You will notice after 3-4 (or maybe 6) months a bump in your T levels on blood tests from your normal steady state level; and then you will drop the injected T and see that your own T is a meager 300-400. but that's enough for fertility. BTW: if it takes longer than 6 months to see your own T come back, then there is a possibility that this isn't going to work. That is, your testes are shut down permanently. Bummer.

After your own T comes back, Phase II: you add FSH to get the sperm quality and especially the numbers up. you will get a few normal sperm with just the hCG, but you need to add (not substitute, add) FSH to get both quantity and quality. After another 4-6 months you will get a semenalysis to see if its working. You will stay on the FSH, with either hCG or LH/FSH combo, until pregnancy.

(*)Some people stay on the lh/fsh for the first trimester if there is a risk of the woman losing the pregnancy.

What your doctor seems to propose is skipping Phase I. The plan WILL work for fertility (if it is going to work at all). But you will feel like heck. Using the clomiphene to (try to) raise LH and FSH can work if your pituitary gland is ready to come back to production. But it is not usually very successful in pts with long term T use. The clomid effect just isn't that powerful. But heck, its worth a try and would solve all the above problems if it works.

Another angle you may take with the doc is 'fecundity' which is the ability to copulate. by skipping phase I, you compromise fecundity. Any decent endocrinologist/fertility specialist should be wise to the intertwined concepts of fertility and fecundity as regards to successful reproduction.

I know I left out a bunch of info for the sake of brevity. So feel free to ask me any questions you want.

Good Luck!
C-

Define "normal testosterone level" for phase #1 and #3.
Best as BAT (BioAvailableTest) in Quest Diagnostic test
Testosterone, Free, Bio/Total (LC/MS/MS)

Should we check and adjust Estradiol level, it may go up on high dose of HCG.

In phase #3 (after pregnancy), what is the reasonable long term HCG weekly dose to produce maximum endogenous testosterone.
------------------
'fecundity' is a topic discussed often here, mostly outside of intent to impregnate.
Any helpful pointers you may wish to share on how to maintain ability to copulate.

.
.
Tank you for informative post.
.

 

[cpileri]

questions

Define "normal testosterone level" for phase #1 and #3.
Best as BAT (BioAvailableTest) in Quest Diagnostic test
Testosterone, Free, Bio/Total (LC/MS/MS)

Normal is anything in the normal range, whatever normal range your lab uses. Both free and total, bioavailable etc should be in the normal range. Our experience has been that it barely squeaked into the low-normal range. But that is enough for fertility. I wouldn't expect your average doctor to help bring your T levels up higher just because you want it- unless your potency is hurting.

Should we check and adjust Estradiol level, it may go up on high dose of HCG.

Doesn't matter for fertility purposes, as it cannot suppress the levels of onadotropins since you are injecting them; and it wont affect the testes response to the injected gonadotropins. We have seen one of the 4 tries result in a tender, actually kind of painful, nipple but without visible change. So yes, E2 will rise; but it wont affect fertility. Your endocrinologist is unlikely to mess with it and will let it float.

In phase #3 (after pregnancy), what is the reasonable long term HCG weekly dose to produce maximum endogenous testosterone.

Do you mean to maintainn fertility until you are 'sure' of the preganacy? or do you mean 'forever'?

For maintaining fertility, you need to stay in Phase 2. To maintain "primed Testes" (i.e. the successful part of Phase I) you will need to maintain usually a twice weekly hCG dose, 1000-2000 units twice weekly is typical but our players didnt do that. They stayed in LH/FSH use until they switched back to Phase 3. If our players had gone to 'end-of-phase-I' like you seem to describe, they ran the risk of having to wait 63+ days after adding the FSH back to start making sperm again. This couple wanted to have kids right away, so keeping the male fertile was the decision. You can bargain with your doc at that point.
If you mean 'forever' forget it. Your doc is very unlikely to rx hCG for permanent replacement therapy for a variety of reasons (cost, frequency of injections, availability of T, allergic potential, etc.)

'fecundity' is a topic discussed often here, mostly outside of intent to impregnate.
Any helpful pointers you may wish to share on how to maintain ability to copulate.

Nothing I care to add. Sorry.

Tank you for informative post.

Hope it helps. having kids is a very emotional time for a person, male or female, and the OP deserves the best.

C-

 

[T-Bone]

I am on test-e for low test and all is working good. It has almost totally eliminated my depression and sex life is back to normal.

I am looking at having a vasectomy reversal to have a 3rd child. I had a biopsy done on my testicles which showed I had no active/living sperm. This obviously was a typical result with being on test.

My urologist mentioned on getting off test for a while and trying either HCG or Clomid to get my body to produce its own test and to see if I can start making me produce good sperm.

Can any elaborate on this. My urologist doesnt like me getting of test because he knows how much it helped my depression and bi-polar but he went to a medical meeting where the speaker who is a urologist and fertility specialist said I should stop the test and start either HCG or Clomid. He prefered Clomid for whatever reason.

Does Clomid help low E2?

Anyway thanks for any advice and comments.

I really hate to think about getting of test which would probably end up being for a long time.

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

 

[corndog]

Cpileri

Wow thanks for the tons of information. Cant say I understand it much though but I do appreciate it.

Quick background on me!

I did roids for years and was able to get my 1st wife pregnate without any problems. Once I had my 1st son I got away from that lifestyle.

For years my test levels were fine in the 500 range. I have suffered from depression and bi-polar for 15 years and took just about every med out there. At some points I was on up to 7 different meds at one time.

2-3 years ago for whatever reason my dr. checked my test and it was low, 220. I was put on Androgel and it didnt work so urologist put me on testim. My levels actually went down to 171. I had a MRI to check my pituitary for a tumor. All came back normal. I have thyroid problems and was probably the reason I could not absorb topicals so started 100mg test-e/week.

My urologist/GP and endo didnt want to do anything with adding HcG to the mix. My E2 went up to as high as 66 and they wouldnt give me armedix so I started l-dex.

ANyway I am down to 2 depression meds and feel great. Libido, moods all better. Still some issues with ED though.

I also had a vasectomy after my 2nd child which was 6 years ago so I have that issue to deal with as well.

Anyway back to the story.

Had a testicular biopsy which shows (exact term not known) but I had no active/live sperm. So a fert specialist out of LA I thing his name in Goldstein was giving a lexture at my wifes program (drug rep) and he said I should start 50mg of clomid/day. My urologist went to a urologist/fertlity specialist seminare and brought my files to discuss. She said the same thing. Get me off test-e and start clomid 50mg/day and do bloodtest in 3 months.

They said to go ahead and have tyhe vasectomy reversal and see what happens around the 4-6 month time period. I think after the bloodtest (LH/FSH) I would prefer to have another biopsy to see what those results show since its covered by insurance then if looks good I would go ahead with the reversal.

So there it is. I miss my test-e though. My muscles look smooth and flat, libido sucks, d!ck is like a noodle and I feel like I am getting blubbery (maybe high E2) and stopping the test.

If Clomid doesnt work then will switch to HcG for a period before deciding if I will become fertile or not. Once this is all said and done I will be back on test-e for life. It did miricles for me.

I dont know what Rx you were talking about as far as you lh/fsh meds to trake. I know HcG is for LH but FSH has never been brought up by Dr.

 

[darkblue1]

Cpileri

Wow thanks for the tons of information. Cant say I understand it much though but I do appreciate it.

Quick background on me!

I did roids for years and was able to get my 1st wife pregnate without any problems. Once I had my 1st son I got away from that lifestyle.

For years my test levels were fine in the 500 range. I have suffered from depression and bi-polar for 15 years and took just about every med out there. At some points I was on up to 7 different meds at one time.

2-3 years ago for whatever reason my dr. checked my test and it was low, 220. I was put on Androgel and it didnt work so urologist put me on testim. My levels actually went down to 171. I had a MRI to check my pituitary for a tumor. All came back normal. I have thyroid problems and was probably the reason I could not absorb topicals so started 100mg test-e/week.

My urologist/GP and endo didnt want to do anything with adding HcG to the mix. My E2 went up to as high as 66 and they wouldnt give me armedix so I started l-dex.

ANyway I am down to 2 depression meds and feel great. Libido, moods all better. Still some issues with ED though.

I also had a vasectomy after my 2nd child which was 6 years ago so I have that issue to deal with as well.

Anyway back to the story.

Had a testicular biopsy which shows (exact term not known) but I had no active/live sperm. So a fert specialist out of LA I thing his name in Goldstein was giving a lexture at my wifes program (drug rep) and he said I should start 50mg of clomid/day. My urologist went to a urologist/fertlity specialist seminare and brought my files to discuss. She said the same thing. Get me off test-e and start clomid 50mg/day and do bloodtest in 3 months.

They said to go ahead and have tyhe vasectomy reversal and see what happens around the 4-6 month time period. I think after the bloodtest (LH/FSH) I would prefer to have another biopsy to see what those results show since its covered by insurance then if looks good I would go ahead with the reversal.

So there it is. I miss my test-e though. My muscles look smooth and flat, libido sucks, d!ck is like a noodle and I feel like I am getting blubbery (maybe high E2) and stopping the test.

If Clomid doesnt work then will switch to HcG for a period before deciding if I will become fertile or not. Once this is all said and done I will be back on test-e for life. It did miricles for me.

I dont know what Rx you were talking about as far as you lh/fsh meds to trake. I know HcG is for LH but FSH has never been brought up by Dr.

Did you have muscle loss?

 

[corndog]

I dont think I actually loss muscle it just I lost some definition and look smoother. Example, my arms look the same size but basically just round, not distinction from tri to bi.

Also, thicker blubbery looking skin in the ab area and outside of chest.

 

[cpileri]

Your issues

For years my test levels were fine in the 500 range. ...2-3 years ago for whatever reason my dr. checked my test and it was low, 220.

I was put on Androgel and it didnt work

so urologist put me on testim. My levels actually went down to 171.

I had a MRI to check my pituitary for a tumor.

Still some issues with ED though.

I also had a vasectomy

Had a testicular biopsy which shows (exact term not known) but I had no active/live sperm.

Get me off test-e and start clomid 50mg/day and do bloodtest in 3 months.

They said to go ahead and have tyhe vasectomy reversal and see what happens around the 4-6 month time period. I think after the bloodtest (LH/FSH) I would prefer to have another biopsy to see what those results show since its covered by insurance then if looks good I would go ahead with the reversal.

So there it is. I miss my test-e though. My muscles look smooth and flat, libido sucks, d!ck is like a noodle

If Clomid doesnt work then will switch to HcG for a period before deciding if I will become fertile or not.

Once this is all said and done I will be back on test-e for life. It did miricles for me.

I dont know what Rx you were talking about as far as you lh/fsh meds to trake. I know HcG is for LH but FSH has never been brought up by Dr.

Let me take these one quote at a time.

1. why after years your T dropped from 500 is unknown. Could be meds, pituitary problems, or other. You did rule out a pituitary tumor with the MRI. Did the docs ever do a full pituitary panel on you? (all 9 hormones?)

2. Androgel rarely works. We did get it to work with a fairly specific application method (maybe for annother post)

3. suggests that your struggling pituitary which was squeaking out 200's worht of T was shut down futher by the patch, or the patch did nothing much and whatever conditionn is causing the lower T is progressing.

4. ruled out tumor, as above

5. Reason enough by itself for a more intensive look at either your psychiatric condition, or your hormone levels- sometimmes you have to be your own best advocate and be a squeaky wheel to get the attention you need.

6. Vasectomy is going to be its own problem, and will require reversal (not always successful) regardless of HPGA status

7. did the biopsy show otherwise normal tissue? normal interstitial cells? normal nurse cells and other cells necessary for maturation of sperm?

8. if your pituitary gland is intact but just suppressed, then the clomid has a chance of working. If it does work, you will feel like crap until it starts up again- assuming your problem is hormonal and not psych.

9. yes, reversal will be necessary. Also, brings up the point that you don't know your FSH status? OK, its probably suppressed as well. But if it is NOT, that is, if your own LH andFSH are normal or high; AND you have no live sperm; then you have PRIMARY gonadal failure and nothing will work.

10. muscles look smooth and flat, libido sucks, d!(k is like a noodle That all by itself should be enough to get your docs checking into things.

11. to help you decide, if the hCG raises your T levels to normal; you have a good chance of becoming fertile with the addition of FSH. You can do all this WITHOUT another testicular biopsy!

12. based only on what you've written, you sound like a candidate for lifelong T replacement therapy.

13. They may not have brought it up because its a ways down the road and required prior authorization from most insurance carriers (otherwise you'll pay through the nose for it). The LH?FSH drug is called menotropins, and there are a few brand names liek Repronex. The drugs are the peptides collected from pregnant woman urine and purified and freeze-dried. There are also recombinant versions of FSH and Beta-FSH chains, but we have never used those.

C-

 

[corndog]

Let me take these one quote at a time.

1. Did the docs ever do a full pituitary panel on you? (all 9 hormones?) - I think so but cant say 100%. I know they had allot of info. Man good thng for insurance it was a $12000.00 MRI. Some special 3D thing.

2. I have thyroid issues so I think I was one of the people that cannot absorb it. I am glad cus the injection are great. My life is so much better

5. Reason enough by itself for a more intensive look at either your psychiatric condition, or your hormone levels- I suffered from depression and was taking up to 7 different meds at a time for 15 years. For what ever reason my Dr. finally did a hormone check and bam low test. Test levels great depression gone. To bad my old Dr. or psyc. Dr. never did a blood test instead of shoving pills at me.

6. Vasectomy is going to be its own problem, and will require reversal (not always successful) regardless of HPGA status - Yeah we have studied up on it and my wife is a drug rep so she has had many talks to Dr. on success rates.

7. did the biopsy show otherwise normal tissue? normal interstitial cells? normal nurse cells and other cells necessary for maturation of sperm? - I dont know exactly what the urologist said but something like I wasnt producing and good/active sperm. He wasnt supprised because of taking test.

8. if your pituitary gland is intact but just suppressed, then the clomid has a chance of working. If it does work, you will feel like crap until it starts up again- assuming your problem is hormonal and not psych. - We will run a blood test after 3 months of clomid. If LH/FSH and stuff arent up then we will try HcG. I am guessing if those numbers are up then they will do another biopsy prior to reversal

9. yes, reversal will be necessary. Also, brings up the point that you don't know your FSH status? OK, its probably suppressed as well. But if it is NOT, that is, if your own LH andFSH are normal or high; AND you have no live sperm; then you have PRIMARY gonadal failure and nothing will work. - Both are bottomed out

LH .20MIU/ML
FSH .21MIU/ML

10. muscles look smooth and flat, libido sucks, d!(k is like a noodle That all by itself should be enough to get your docs checking into things. - All this started 5 weeks ago when switched from test-s to clomid. Things were fine on test

11. to help you decide, if the hCG raises your T levels to normal; you have a good chance of becoming fertile with the addition of FSH. You can do all this WITHOUT another testicular biopsy! - What do you take for FSH?

12. based only on what you've written, you sound like a candidate for lifelong T replacement therapy. - Oh yeah, I will be on it for life. It has changed my life so much my Dr. said I will be on TRT forever as long as I want to feel good.


Hey, thank you very much for all your imput and info. I really appreciate it.

 

[JanSz]

What do you take for FSH?

HMG

.
Menotropins (Systemic)
Brand Names : Humegon, Pergonal, human menopausal gonadotropins (hMG), human gonadotropins, menotrophin

http://www.healthopedia.com/drugs/detailed/menotropins/
-------------------
http://www.questdiagnostics.com/kbase/topic/detail/drug/hw201764/detail.htm

Generic Name Brand Name
human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) A.P.L., Pregnyl, Profasi
human menopausal gonadotropin (hMG) Bravelle, Humegon, Metrodin, Pergonal, Repronex
recombinant human follicle-stimulating hormone (rFSH) Follistim, Gonal-F


Gonadotropin treatment for infertility
How It Works, In women, In men
Why It Is Used
How Well It Works
Side Effects
What To Think About

 

[cpileri]

sorry about the dalayed response

Been away. I will address your post, eve though it has been awhile and the situation may have changed by now.

7. did the biopsy show otherwise normal tissue? normal interstitial cells? normal nurse cells and other cells necessary for maturation of sperm?

8. if your pituitary gland is intact but just suppressed, then the clomid has a chance of working. If it does work, you will feel like crap until it starts up again-

9. yes, reversal will be necessary. Also, brings up the point that you don't know your FSH status? OK, its probably suppressed as well. But if it is NOT, that is, if your own LH andFSH are normal or high; AND you have no live sperm; then you have PRIMARY gonadal failure and nothing will work. - Both are bottomed out

LH .20MIU/ML
FSH .21MIU/ML

The fact that both are bottomed out say that at a minimum the pituitary is suppressed, and likely that is your problem. You may ALSO have primary gonadal failure, but as in number 7 above, we don't quite know.

10. muscles look smooth and flat, libido sucks, d!(k is like a noodle That all by itself should be enough to get your docs checking into things. - All this started 5 weeks ago when switched from test-s to clomid. Things were fine on test

Yes, as in point 8 above.

11. to help you decide, if the hCG raises your T levels to normal; you have a good chance of becoming fertile with the addition of FSH. You can do all this WITHOUT another testicular biopsy! - What do you take for FSH?

Menotropin as linked by another contributor.

Hey, thank you very much for all your imput and info. I really appreciate it.

No problem, and hope things are working out for oyu.
C-

 

[Random987]

Fyi

I've been on TRT for 4 years with 100mg of Test Cyp a week with 350iu of HCG (second and third day before short). I just had a sperm analysis that was normal. So, being on test does not necessarily make you infertile, especially if you supp with HCG.

FWIW

 

[corndog]

I understand that but my uro didnt put me on hcg only test. With test only fertility/low sperm is pretty common. Got 3-4 more weeks on clomid alone till blood test.

The things I really hate w clomid is that I have no libido at all and I have gotten real blubbery even though my diet and training hasnt changed. No muscle def. and stomach area/love handles skin looks thick and soft

 

[darkblue1]

I understand that but my uro didnt put me on hcg only test. With test only fertility/low sperm is pretty common. Got 3-4 more weeks on clomid alone till blood test.

The things I really hate w clomid is that I have no libido at all and I have gotten real blubbery even though my diet and training hasnt changed. No muscle def. and stomach area/love handles skin looks thick and soft

That's called water retention at belly area.

 

[corndog]

how can i help eliminate it, it sucks, im guessing has to do with the clomid and its action with e2, any suggestions i havent looked this bad in over 15 years and im doing the same thing other than meds

 

[corndog]

I started a new post Clomid and Sides with questions to water retention, libido and body comp

 

[JanSz]

how can i help eliminate it, it sucks, im guessing has to do with the clomid and its action with e2, any suggestions i havent looked this bad in over 15 years and im doing the same thing other than meds

When you first started asking questions, planning baby, reversing vasectomy, etc,
I have shown you chart on post #79
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/male-anti-aging/66268-jan-s-bloodtest-3.html

and said to limit your treatment to redlined part.
-------------------

With all this s-h-it that you are going thru,
you may end up doing the redlined part after all,
except needlesly suffering in between.

 

[corndog]

Stupid question but how do I find post #79? Sorry but to verse in this

 

[darkblue1]

Stupid question but how do I find post #79? Sorry but to verse in this

on the right side you can see #79 when you scroll down