Help Tweaking hCG Dose for Increased FT and Bio-T

[jinxie]

June 2008 labs
Protocol: 1500 IUs of hCG E3D;.35 mgs Adex E3D.

TT 1485 (250 - 1100)
FT 241.5 (46 - 224)
Bio T 486.1 (110 - 575)
SHBG 38 (8-48)
Albumin 4.4 (3.6 - 5.1)
E2 90 (13-54)

September 2008 Labs
Protocol: hCG injection @ 1k IUs E3Ds, adex at .375 mgs E3Ds

TT 1217 (250 - 1100)
FT 187.6 (46 - 224)
Bio T 376.9 (110-575)
SHBG 37 (8-48)
Albumin 4.4 (3.6 - 5.1)
E2 75 (13 - 54)

Hot off the press . . . UPDATED NUMBERS (compare to above)

Protocol at the time of draw:

1) hCG 625 IUs twice weekly
2) adex .5 mgs twice per week

T RELATED NUMBERS

TT 994 (250-1100)
FT 132.8 (46-224) -- FAIR; down substantially from before, yikes!
Bio T 284.7 (110-575) -- FAIR; down substantially from before, yikes!
DHT 73 (25-75) -- PERFECT
SHBG 38 (8-48) -- FAIR; similar to before
E2 11 (less <= 29) -- FAIR (a little low); but no wang issue

PSA .5 (<=4) -- PERFECT

LIPIDS

Cholesterol 178 (125 - 200) GOOD
Tris 129 (<150) FAIR
VLDL 26 (5-40) GOOD
LDL 114 (<100 for diabetics) FAIR (as I have slightly elevated glucose)
HDL 38 (>=40) FAIR (need more cardio)

MISC NOTABLES

Fasting Glucose 102 (65-99) GOOD; down from 115. (Cozaar should drop it.)
AST 26 (10-40) GREAT, given all my meds
ALT 26 (9-60) GREAT, given all my meds; was on the high end before.
Alkaline Phosphatase 57 (40-115) PERFECT

------------------------------------------

So, it looks like I need to increase the hCG to increase FT, Bio T and E2. Somewhere between 750 - 1250 IUs should do it. Colkurtz, Jans, Old Gator, or anyone else, do you have any idea where in that spectrum I should start at? I am thinking 1000 IUs. I do not want to take more adex, as I don't want to drop my HDL any more. Obviously, I am stuck with my SHBG, which is an impediment. I suppose I could speak to my doc about low-dose Danazol, which Dr. Shippen prescribes at around 10-20 mgs/day. I believe higher SHBG means that I can better handle slightly elevated E2, right? That would reinforce that increasing hCG is a good call, and shouldn't require more adex.

Thanks in advance for any help.

 

[JanSz]

Hot off the press . . . UPDATED NUMBERS (compare to above)

Protocol at the time of draw:

1) hCG 625 IUs twice weekly
2) adex .5 mgs twice per week

T RELATED NUMBERS

TT 994 (250-1100)
FT 132.8 (46-224) -- FAIR; down substantially from before, yikes!
Bio T 284.7 (110-575) -- FAIR; down substantially from before, yikes!
DHT 73 (25-75) -- PERFECT
SHBG 38 (8-48) -- FAIR; similar to before
E2 11 (less <= 29) -- FAIR (a little low); down from 90; but no wang issue

PSA .5 (<=4) -- PERFECT

LIPIDS

Cholesterol 178 (125 - 200) GOOD
Tris 129 (<150) FAIR
VLDL 26 (5-40) GOOD
LDL 114 (<100 for diabetics) FAIR (as I have slightly elevated glucose)
HDL 38 (>=40) FAIR (need more cardio)

MISC NOTABLES

Fasting Glucose 102 (65-99) GOOD; down from 115. (Cozaar should drop it.)
AST 26 (10-40) GREAT, given all my meds
ALT 26 (9-60) GREAT, given all my meds; was on the high end before.
Alkaline Phosphatase 57 (40-115) PERFECT

------------------------------------------

So, it looks like I need to increase the hCG to increase FT, Bio T and E2. Somewhere between 750 - 1250 IUs should do it. Colkurtz, Jans, Old Gator, or anyone else, do you have any idea where in that spectrum I should start at? I am thinking 1000 IUs. I do not want to take more adex, as I don't want to drop my HDL any more. Obviously, I am stuck with my SHBG, which is an impediment. I suppose I could speak to my doc about low-dose Danazol, which Dr. Shippen prescribes at around 10-20 mgs/day. I believe higher SHBG means that I can better handle slightly elevated E2, right? That would reinforce that increasing hCG is a good call, and shouldn't require more adex.

Thanks in advance for any help.

I suggest that you add injectable testosterone to your mix.
At least E3D better EOD schedule.

Add enough so you get your TT~1500 or little more.

Stay there and watch your SHBG levels drop.
Revisit testosterone dose size when SHBG(15-20)

Make sure that you do dot get screwed by Danazol or Stanazolol.

I would also stay away from Cozzar.

I was surprised with my improved glucose/insulin situation after I dropped
wheat
rice
grains
potato
sugar
and any other sources of high GI carbohydrates.

only green vegetables.

All that between Aug/09 and Oct/08
Major improvement.

...
Are you doing anything with your Adrenals/Thyroid

Do you know status of your Fatty Acids.

Do you know your micronutirents status---Spectracell-5000 (cost $60 w insurance)

Thanks to HAN for introducing Spectracell-5000 (this is really a big deal)

???????????

.

 

[jinxie]

I suggest that you add injectable testosterone to your mix.
At least E3D better EOD schedule.

Add enough so you get your TT~1500 or little more.

Stay there and watch your SHBG levels drop.
Revisit testosterone dose size when SHBG(15-20)

Make sure that you do dot get screwed by Danazol or Stanazolol.

I would also stay away from Cozzar.

I was surprised with my improved glucose/insulin situation after I dropped
wheat
rice
grains
potato
sugar
and any other sources of high GI carbohydrates.

only green vegetables.

All that between Aug/09 and Oct/08
Major improvement.

...
Are you doing anything with your Adrenals/Thyroid

Do you know status of your Fatty Acids.

Do you know your micronutirents status---Spectracell-5000 (cost $60 w insurance)

Thanks to HAN for introducing Spectracell-5000 (this is really a big deal)

???????????

.

Thanks Jan, but if you look at my previous numbers, I dont think there is any reason for me to get on testosterone again. And I don't want to impair my fertility, so it's out of the question in any event.

Per my doctor, I will likely increase hCG to 1000 IUs, twice per week. When I was on 1k IUs every 3 days, I was over 1200 TT; so I should get close to that on the new dose. I am not going to chase 1500 TT. That would require 1500 IUs E3Ds, and I don't want to take that much, as it's going to force me to take more Adex (see my prior protocol and numbers).

I don't know why you feel so strongly against low-dose Danazol. Shipped prescribes it. Do you think taking larger doses of Test is healthier than adding a tiny dose of Danazol? Why?

Adrenal and thyroid function are fine.

Didn't test fatty acids. I dont have coverage for that, so that's not going to happen now. But thanks for the suggestion.

Read my post on ARBs; they are great for the body. I feel much better since I started.

 

[jinxie]

My low E2 to SHBG ratio (thus low free E2) is likely causing some of my body pain. No doubt, I am dried out. http://www.springerlink.com/content/k66kmm72w33l45ul/

 

[pmgamer18]

I would not trust this Ultra E2 <29 test they have having big problems with it so much so Dr. John will not use it anymore. I did both at the same time the Ultra came back very low and the Test #4021 was 20 pg/ml and by this test I could tell by how I felt my levels were about 20 not the <2 they said for the Ultra Test. If you have night time and morning wood your levels are not this low.

Most men this low can't get it up taking Viagra.

 

[Gutterpump]

JanSz, what is wrong with Danazol or Stanazolol? I'm just trying to learn about these more.

 

[jinxie]

I would not trust this Ultra E2 <29 test they have having big problems with it so much so Dr. John will not use it anymore. I did both at the same time the Ultra came back very low and the Test #4021 was 20 pg/ml and by this test I could tell by how I felt my levels were about 20 not the <2 they said for the Ultra Test. If you have night time and morning wood your levels are not this low.

Most men this low can't get it up taking Viagra.

Thanks Phil. I thought this test was the "gold standard."

The thing is, this score, combined with my high SGHB (thus low free E2), would explain my tendon/joint pain.

I definitely have no issue with wood.

Is there any proof that this test is problematic, such that I can get a free re-test? If I can convince Quest that there is an issue, I'm sure I can convince them to retest me under the other test for free.

I have to say, given my Test levels, and my SGHB, I find this E2 score questionable.

 

[jinxie]

JanSz, what is wrong with Danazol or Stanazolol? I'm just trying to learn about these more.

There drugs are problematic at the doses that you read about on the Net. You don't want to drop your SGHB that low. For instance, a normal dose of Danazol would drop you by at least 50%, which is too much for someone who is in range. Shippen prescribes 10-20 mgs.

Beyond it being hard on the liver, I think dropping SGHB really low would mess up your thyroid, adrenals, glucose/insulin, etc. It's better to have high SGHB than low, from everything I read.

When SGHB is low, you become a hyper metabolizer of T. Very unsteady values. Also it causes acne issues. I am wondering if this is part of your problem, GP?

 

[Gutterpump]

Before starting TRT, I had low SHBG (about 10).... could be! Will look into it more. I haven't checked my SHBG since I started even though I've checked my other values. This new bloodwork next week will say more. I'm expecting my SHBG to be higher since I am on T3 now.

 

[jinxie]

Before starting TRT, I had low SHBG (about 10).... could be! Will look into it more. I haven't checked my SHBG since I started even though I've checked my other values. This new bloodwork next week will say more. I'm expecting my SHBG to be higher since I am on T3 now.

I've read repeatedly that low SHGB wreaks havoc on your skin. And for what it's worth, I have very clear skin, and look a good 8 years younger than my age. I suppose it's some consolation given my less-than-ideal free test.

I am sure you are higher, if for no other reason than increased T. I don't know what T3 does to SGHB. Note, HC descreases SHGB. Complicated stuff.

 

[Gutterpump]

Yeah definitely. I had posted in the past here that I am now taking 60mcg of T3 ed, and Matrix told me that this will cause SHBG to shoot up...I'm not sure why it would do this though. I also moved slowly to 60mcg of T3, and definitely don't feel hyperthyroid on this dose. I've been doing this on my own for a few months and might go back to Nature Thyroid soon, once I get the results of my RT3 in my next labs.

Another strange thing, the acne only was a problem for me mainly when I started hCG Mono. I didn't have acne for years and years before this even when I was getting tested and showed low SHBG. I never got acne while on oral steroids either. I've taken Hdrol, Epistane and pulsed Superdrol in the past... never broke out, except got a little bit of bacne on the hdrol (it's pretty androgenic).

Once I started HCG, I would breakout every 3 days all over my back, and they would be cystic. Thankfully it is all gone now after a 4 month course of accutane but it's left bad scarring which I need treatment for. I now have this rash of tiny bumps on the side of my shoulders / upper arms which I'm treating with topicals. My dermatologist told me it's not foliculitis nor anything fungal. Now this happened when I switched from shots to the cream. I am just happy that I have no acne on my face...but I am super uncomfortable taking my shirt off in public and just want to fix this..People must definitely think I am juicing hard if they catch a glimpse of the scars and current arm acne. My dermatologist is great though and I have good faith in him and he also treats many 'chemically enhanced' bodybuilders in the area so he has experience with hormonal acne.

ps: don't want to hijack your thread lol
But I am definitely interested in hearing more about the 2 zol's in this thread

 

[Gutterpump]

Hrmmm...
"Low SHBG by some mechanism causes gynecomastia, lowered libido and general poor response to TRT "
Good thread --> http://forum.m e s o morphosis.com/mens-health-forum/testosterone-replacement-therapy-men-134237140.html

 

[jinxie]

Hrmmm...
"Low SHBG by some mechanism causes gynecomastia, lowered libido and general poor response to TRT "
Good thread --> http://forum.m e s o morphosis.com/mens-health-forum/testosterone-replacement-therapy-men-134237140.html

Yup, low SHGB, high free estradiol.

Given my regimen, I am pretty happy with my numbers, and don't feel any need to get my T numbers to the top of the range. More than anything, I want to decrease the chronic pain. I did need or want to get any bigger. As things stand, I can barely fit my entire back in the avatar frame, LOL.

Let's start another thread on the ZOLs. I think we have at least one person -- Old Gator -- who is on low-dose Danazol. My doc also scripts it to some of his HRT patients.

 

[pmgamer18]

I wish it was that easy but it's not I called them and told them to send my BCBS there money bad and if they did not send it back I would turn them in. They did not send it back and when I called BCBS they told me they are not getting the money back. I then called my Union Rep he called them and gave them a piece of his mind. All you here about is how we are trying to keep cost down. Then they went after them and got the money back.

Just redo it next time you do labs and do the Quest number 4021 Estradiol test.

Thanks Phil. I thought this test was the "gold standard."

The thing is, this score, combined with my high SGHB (thus low free E2), would explain my tendon/joint pain.

I definitely have no issue with wood.

Is there any proof that this test is problematic, such that I can get a free re-test? If I can convince Quest that there is an issue, I'm sure I can convince them to retest me under the other test for free.

I have to say, given my Test levels, and my SGHB, I find this E2 score questionable.