DHEA Article

[FitnFirm]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold
First of all that "80% converstion to estrogen" is a complete crock of ****

very little DHEA will convert to estrogens. it has to FIRST convert to either adione or testosterone to convert to estrogens, and we know that very little DHEA will convert to either of these. And that which does, will only have a very small fraction of these metabolites convert to estrogens anyway

we DO know though that alot of DHEA will conver to 5-AD, and 5-AD has some considerable estrogenic properties. THIS is where the estrogenic effects from DHEA are coming from

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold
the classical estrogens formed from DHEA intake (which would arise from conversion of either ADIONE or testosterone via aromatase) really are not a significant issue

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold
I would try 6-OXO 600mg day (orally preferably) with 7-keto 300mg or more a day

might make a nice stack

throw in some DHEA at 600 to 1200 mg a day and you may be sittin pretty

of course you do know that giant sells DHEA caps in 200mg doses for pretty cheap!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold
i also am taking about 3 grams of DHEA along with it [7-keto]

i am not experiencing gyno symptoms either

 

[Patrick Arnold]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold
First of all that "80% converstion to estrogen" is a complete crock of ****

very little DHEA will convert to estrogens. it has to FIRST convert to either adione or testosterone to convert to estrogens, and we know that very little DHEA will convert to either of these. And that which does, will only have a very small fraction of these metabolites convert to estrogens anyway

we DO know though that alot of DHEA will conver to 5-AD, and 5-AD has some considerable estrogenic properties. THIS is where the estrogenic effects from DHEA are coming from

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold
the classical estrogens formed from DHEA intake (which would arise from conversion of either ADIONE or testosterone via aromatase) really are not a significant issue

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold
I would try 6-OXO 600mg day (orally preferably) with 7-keto 300mg or more a day

might make a nice stack

throw in some DHEA at 600 to 1200 mg a day and you may be sittin pretty

of course you do know that giant sells DHEA caps in 200mg doses for pretty cheap!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold
i also am taking about 3 grams of DHEA along with it [7-keto]

i am not experiencing gyno symptoms either

quote one is 100% consistent with the information i am providing here. since the science is way over your head though you cannot recognize that

quote two is 100% consistent as well

quote three is interesting because it is from a couple of years ago and not long ago afterwards i developed a big gyno flare up. in fact if you search you will see that i report that on the boards not long after.

 

[Outside Backer]

well **** this got very interesting as im turning 30 soon im wondering what low does dhea willdo for me for a long time

 

[EasyEJL]

I'm starting to wonder how different 7-oxo is than 7-keto, since it seems easier to find 7-oxo bulk.

 

[macedaddy]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold
First of all that "80% converstion to estrogen" is a complete crock of ****

very little DHEA will convert to estrogens. it has to FIRST convert to either adione or testosterone to convert to estrogens, and we know that very little DHEA will convert to either of these. And that which does, will only have a very small fraction of these metabolites convert to estrogens anyway

we DO know though that alot of DHEA will conver to 5-AD, and 5-AD has some considerable estrogenic properties. THIS is where the estrogenic effects from DHEA are coming from

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold
the classical estrogens formed from DHEA intake (which would arise from conversion of either ADIONE or testosterone via aromatase) really are not a significant issue

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold
I would try 6-OXO 600mg day (orally preferably) with 7-keto 300mg or more a day

might make a nice stack

throw in some DHEA at 600 to 1200 mg a day and you may be sittin pretty

of course you do know that giant sells DHEA caps in 200mg doses for pretty cheap!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold
i also am taking about 3 grams of DHEA along with it [7-keto]

i am not experiencing gyno symptoms either

WOW! seems you are singing a different tune in all those posts, PAT! :study:

 

[Patrick Arnold]

I'm starting to wonder how different 7-oxo is than 7-keto, since it seems easier to find 7-oxo bulk.

they are the same thing

 

[Patrick Arnold]

interesting...........

Thanks for the info! I will be sure not to take more than your recommended dose! :thumbsup:

Under 1g and it should be fine? I am also turning 30 next year and am interested in running this long-term.......

Thanks for looking out for me, PAT! :box:

i would not exceed 200mg a day

 

[strategicmove]

i would not exceed 200mg a day

I would like to consider this "200mg/day" recommendation as a rule of thumb for generating anabolic responses. With cycling, of course. Yet, this may not be a one-size-fits-all recommendation, as the physiologies of different athletes metabolize the same compounds somewhat differently.

When it comes to ingesting DHEA as a potent anti-aging compound, however, the dosing recommendation is completely different. Researchers and clinicians have recommended a broad spectrum from 5mg to about 100mg per day. Still, supplementing with DHEA usually requires ingesting other compounds such as Vitamin E, Selenium, Soy Isoflavones, Gamma E Tocopherol, Sesame Lignans, Lycopene Extract, Saw Palmetto Extract, Pygeum Extract, Nettle Extract, Boron, Beta-Sitosterols, Pregnelonone, and Melatonin, to optimize hormone levels and ensure DHEA's sides do not dominate.

 

[bigschmidt821]

:wave:

what the hell is natural growth factor

IGF-1 growth factors. taken in the way i mentioned, 10 g glutamine along with the 100MG tab of of DHEA as well as the arginine throughout the day raises your bodies natural IGF-1 Growth Factor actually from the studies and blood work i have seen it was doubled. This was prescribed by a local MD to paitients who were using HGH. Sorry if my english was not plain, but hey just give me a hug...:run: :drunk: wait i forgot i am to american...isnt that what you said? what the hell does that mean? and please speak plain english i am scared all the science speak is way to far above my head :frustrate

 

[edwards]

good info here

 

[Patrick Arnold]

:wave:

IGF-1 growth factors. taken in the way i mentioned, 10 g glutamine along with the 100MG tab of of DHEA as well as the arginine throughout the day raises your bodies natural IGF-1 Growth Factor actually from the studies and blood work i have seen it was doubled. This was prescribed by a local MD to paitients who were using HGH. Sorry if my english was not plain, but hey just give me a hug...:run: :drunk: wait i forgot i am to american...isnt that what you said? what the hell does that mean? and please speak plain english i am scared all the science speak is way to far above my head :frustrate

I seriously doubt that protocol can double IGF-1 levels in a normal individual. In fact i completely doubt it. doubling of IGF-1

if you had an individual with depressed IGF-1 due to serious deficiencies of some sort than perhaps such nutritional intervention might bring them back to normal. But a regular healthy adult guy not a chance in hell

the GH/IGF-1 axis is simply too highly regulated and too biologically consequential to be so easily influenced by a couple of common aminos and a touch of dhea

 

[EasyEJL]

I am a big roadrunner + wile e coyote fan (have stuffed ones in my car) but another dosage question for anyone

would 100mg of dhea be better split dosed or taken all at once?

 

[EasyEJL]

well, there are those bulk tabs of DHEA that PA sells, at 200mg per cap, so i would imagine, the 100mg at a time would be fine with another dose or so later! :thumbsup:

As PA says: Don't exceed 500mg and especially don't get 1g or more!

You would want to divide your total daily dose throughout the day to keep hormone levels as even as possible.

I'm using 50s, taking at 100/day since thats the highest I could find studies with positive results and no negative results. Even then the studies are with older people than me (although sometimes I feel ancient at 39).

 

[Patrick Arnold]

I am a big roadrunner + wile e coyote fan (have stuffed ones in my car) but another dosage question for anyone

would 100mg of dhea be better split dosed or taken all at once?

probably all at once. i think most dhea is present as sulfate with long half life.

but then again its controversial about whether the sulfate pool is bioactive or not

 

[EasyEJL]

Even if it has a 24+ hr half life, theres no real harm in splitting into two 50mg doses right?

 

[macedaddy]

I'm using 50s, taking at 100/day since thats the highest I could find studies with positive results and no negative results. Even then the studies are with older people than me (although sometimes I feel ancient at 39).

are you also taking a SERM or an AI?

 

[strategicmove]

well, there are those bulk tabs of DHEA that PA sells, at 200mg per cap, so i would imagine, the 100mg at a time would be fine with another dose or so later! :thumbsup:

As PA says: Don't exceed 500mg and especially don't get 1g or more!

You would want to divide your total daily dose throughout the day to keep hormone levels as even as possible.

Guys, we need to be careful with DHEA supplementation. Whether 100mg, taken once or twice daily, is enough or too much, depends not only on the intended goal, but also on the age, gender and physiology of the individual. For some individuals, a maximum of 10mg per day for anti-aging purposes would do. For some others 200mg in total per day would be adequate to generate anabolic responses. There is no blanket prescription!

 

[EasyEJL]

are you also taking a SERM or an AI?

:rofl: No, only after taking Muscletech Celltech Hardcore. Since its so hardcore

 

[Patrick Arnold]

Even if it has a 24+ hr half life, theres no real harm in splitting into two 50mg doses right?

no, its just more convenient to take at once

 

[macedaddy]

Guys, we need to be careful with DHEA supplementation. Whether 100mg, taken once or twice daily, is enough or too much, depends not only on the intended goal, but also on the age, gender and physiology of the individual. For some individuals, a maximum of 10mg per day for anti-aging purposes would do. For some others 200mg in total per day would be adequate to generate anabolic responses. There is no blanket prescription!

so we are all different and we should experiment what works best for each of us? SOUNDS LIKE A PLAN! thanks.

 

[macedaddy]

:rofl: No, only after taking Muscletech Celltech Hardcore. Since its so hardcore

what about hydroxycut HARDCORE? It should add 5X the hardcore-ness to your already hardcore stack! :toofunny:

 

[EasyEJL]

what about hydroxycut HARDCORE? It should add 5X the hardcore-ness to your already hardcore stack! :toofunny:

I dunno if I'm all that hardcore, i'm more a poser trying to fight back turning 40 this year.

Geez, I think if tripdog took that, he'd disappear or die - "University Researched To Decrease Bodyfat By 7.9%"

 

[macedaddy]

I dunno if I'm all that hardcore, i'm more a poser trying to fight back turning 40 this year.

Geez, I think if tripdog took that, he'd disappear or die - "University Researched To Decrease Bodyfat By 7.9%"

LMAO! You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to EasyEJL again. :head:

 

[jasonschaffin]

AX come on now
Would you please refute these claims with some studies or at least some explanation other than I have been taking it for ten years. The studies do seem to show that DHEA and its major metabolite 5-AD to be pretty estrogenic. I kinda wanna try superdrol-ng but lets see the science.
Now to all of you out there. How about DHEA, SERM, and AI combo? Anybetter than just taking the AI?

 

[DR.D]

AX come on now
Would you please refute these claims with some studies or at least some explanation other than I have been taking it for ten years. The studies do seem to show that DHEA and its major metabolite 5-AD to be pretty estrogenic. I kinda wanna try superdrol-ng but lets see the science.
Now to all of you out there. How about DHEA, SERM, and AI combo? Anybetter than just taking the AI?

Are you kidding?! DHEA is the oldest ph out there! If you don't get it by now, a 2hrs tutorial wouldn't help you. Are you a post-menopausal woman? If not, start your education by disregarding impertinent studies!

 

[ImJ2x]

DrD woke up feisty. Cool.

 

[jasonschaffin]

Are you kidding?! DHEA is the oldest ph out there! If you don't get it by now, a 2hrs tutorial wouldn't help you. Are you a post-menopausal woman? If not, start your education by disregarding impertinent studies!

So DHEA and 5-AD aren't estrogenic? How much does it take to boost test levels? Do we have blood test on these levels? Will and anti-e take care of estrogenic side effects? Would it be wise to take a SERM at the same time?
Yeah DHEA is the oldest prohormone out there and as a young male has never really interested me. Prove that as a young male it will raise my test levels w/o estrogenic side effects. Maybe Superdrol-NG is supposed to take care of these side effects? I don't know you haven't revealed whats in it.
How about you start my education with PERTINENT studies?

 

[DR.D]

DrD woke up feisty. Cool.

Playing Mr. Mom with a 3 year old female makes any foe look like easy prey, seriously! lol

 

[EasyEJL]

Playing Mr. Mom with a 3 year old female makes any foe look like easy prey, seriously! lol

I don't think I recall seeing the ages of your kids before, you have an older one as well? I've got a 3yo + 11yo girls, with an unknown sex one in the oven. So I can afford to atrophy my nuts

 

[DR.D]

So DHEA and 5-AD aren't estrogenic? How much does it take to boost test levels? Do we have blood test on these levels? Will and anti-e take care of estrogenic side effects? Would it be wise to take a SERM at the same time?
Yeah DHEA is the oldest prohormone out there and as a young male has never really interested me. Prove that as a young male it will raise my test levels w/o estrogenic side effects. Maybe Superdrol-NG is supposed to take care of these side effects? I don't know you haven't revealed whats in it.
How about you start my education with PERTINENT studies?

I will say that 750-1000mg of 5Ad can be estrogenic, depending what else you may be on, but I have NEVER experienced any estrogenic effects (just the opposite) with any dose of DHEA. In some strains, species, tests and studies yes, DHEA appears to contribute to estrogenic cell lines and expression, but in the male bb application it's a non-issue. The product works, what else matters? Are you planning on having a sex change or something, because then that study might have some pertinence! There are studies that show 1600mg being used for prolonged periods of time by men with no ill effects at all and excellent repartitioning too, would you prefer I put heavily weighted studies like that in here?! I would be guilty of cherry picking studies just like the op was, so no, I won't do that. A study can't prove anything either way, so try it yourself, it works, or not, but what else can I say? Do your own homework if you wanna waste hours on PunMed. I did that 10 years ago, been using it since then with no probs. You can do all the research you like but you will not know until you try for yourself, because the proof rests in results.

 

[DR.D]

I don't think I recall seeing the ages of your kids before, you have an older one as well? I've got a 3yo + 11yo girls, with an unknown sex one in the oven. So I can afford to atrophy my nuts

17, 16 and 3. I guess maybe the DHEA has worked too well!

I feel for you my friend. It's 3 on 2 here but the females seem to FAR out number you in your house!

 

[FitnFirm]

17, 16 and 3. I guess maybe the DHEA has worked too well!

I feel for you my friend. It's 3 on 2 here but the females seem to FAR out number you in your house!

Got you beat ! 19- 23- 23 all Boys My house was always surrounded in testosterone :smite:

 

[Eric Potratz]

are you saying that the people that did this study (and the numerous other studies on dhea and 5-ad being estrogenic) are out to get you or AX?

interesting allegation.

i am simply the messenger dude. i did not author these papers



Adly L, Hill Maggiolini M, Bonofiglio D, Pezzi V, Carpino A, Marsico S, Rago V, Vivacqua A, Picard D, Ando S.
Links
Aromatase overexpression enhances the stimulatory effects of adrenal androgens on MCF7 breast cancer cells.
Mol Cell Endocrinol. 2002 Jul 31;193(1-2):13-8.
PMID: 12160997 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
3:
Maggiolini M, Donze O, Jeannin E, Ando S, Picard D.
Links
Adrenal androgens stimulate the proliferation of breast cancer cells as direct activators of estrogen receptor alpha.
Cancer Res. 1999 Oct 1;59(19):4864-9.
PMID: 10519397 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
4:
Adams JB, Seymour-Munn K.
Links
Estrogen receptor and C19-5-ene-steroid concentrations in the nuclear fraction from human breast carcinoma tissue.
J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol. 1992 Nov;43(6):499-505.
PMID: 1419884 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
5:
Boccuzzi G, Brignardello E, di Monaco M, Forte C, Leonardi L, Pizzini A.
Links
Influence of dehydroepiandrosterone and 5-en-androstene-3 beta, 17 beta-diol on the growth of MCF-7 human breast cancer cells induced by 17 beta-estradiol.
Anticancer Res. 1992 May-Jun;12(3):799-803.
PMID: 1535770 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
6:
MacIndoe JH, Hinkhouse M, Woods G.
Links
Dehydroepiandrosterone and estrone 17-ketosteroid reductases in MCF-7 human breast cancer cells.
Breast Cancer Res Treat. 1990 Oct;16(3):261-72.
PMID: 1964814 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
7:
Najid A, Habrioux G.
Links
Biological effects of adrenal androgens on MCF-7 and BT-20 human breast cancer cells.
Oncology. 1990;47(3):269-74.
PMID: 2140441 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
8:
Poulin R, Poirier D, Merand Y, Theriault C, Belanger A, Labrie F.
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Extensive esterification of adrenal C19-delta 5-sex steroids to long-chain fatty acids in the ZR-75-1 human breast cancer cell line.
J Biol Chem. 1989 Jun 5;264(16):9335-43.
PMID: 2524485 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
9:
Simard J, Labrie F.
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Adrenal C19-5-ene steroids induce full estrogenic responses in rat pituitary gonadotrophs.
J Steroid Biochem. 1987 May;26(5):539-46.
PMID: 2953941 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
10:
Poulin R, Labrie F.
Links
Stimulation of cell proliferation and estrogenic response by adrenal C19-delta 5-steroids in the ZR-75-1 human breast cancer cell line.
Cancer Res. 1986 Oct;46(10):4933-7.
PMID: 2944574 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
11:
Adams JB.
Links
Control of secretion and the function of C19-delta 5-steroids of the human adrenal gland.
Mol Cell Endocrinol. 1985 Jun;41(1):1-17. Review. No abstract available.
PMID: 2989036 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
12:
Adams J, Garcia M, Rochefort H.
Links
Estrogenic effects of physiological concentrations of 5-androstene-3 beta, 17 beta-diol and its metabolism in MCF7 human breast cancer cells.
Cancer Res. 1981 Nov;41(11 Pt 1):4720-6.
PMID: 6458355 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
13:
Adams JB, Archibald L, Seymour-Munn K.
Links
Dehydroepiandrosterone and androst-5-ene-3 beta,17 beta-diol in human mammary cancer cytosolic and nuclear compartments and their relationship to estrogen receptor.
Cancer Res. 1980 Oct;40(10):3815-20.
PMID: 6449285 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
14:
Adams JB, Archibald L, Clarke C.
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Adrenal dehydroepiandrosterone and human mammary cancer.
Cancer Res. 1978 Nov;38(11 Pt 2):4036-40. No abstract available.
PMID: 151584 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Pat,

If your suggesting that supplementing with DHEA will cause gyno, make you fat and block your muscle gains, that is flat out wrong. Out of the hundreds of users of Dermacrine, which probably has a dose comparable to a 700mg/oral dose of DHEA, we’ve maybe had 1-2 complaints about “sore nipples”… the rest of the feedback was from guys that reduced BF, increased their lifts, and found a new untapped energy source.

DHEA converts to many more hormones besides 5-Adiol. (BTW, 5-Adiol is great for the immune system) Consider the metabolites 4-Adiol, Triol, Adione, Stanedione, Stanediole, Test, 7-alpha DHEA, 7-oxo DHEA, ect. This is only part of a whole hormone milieu from DHEA which encourages muscle gain, fat loss and sexual function.

As I explained in my previous post, in-vitro studies with cancer-cell lines often have little to do with the real-world effects with supplements. Especially studies using irrelevant super-physiological doses in isolated cell-lines.

-Pp

 

[jasonschaffin]

I will say that 750-1000mg of 5Ad can be estrogenic, depending what else you may be on, but I have NEVER experienced any estrogenic effects (just the opposite) with any dose of DHEA. In some strains, species, tests and studies yes, DHEA appears to contribute to estrogenic cell lines and expression, but in the male bb application it's a non-issue. The product works, what else matters? Are you planning on having a sex change or something, because then that study might have some pertinence! There are studies that show 1600mg being used for prolonged periods of time by men with no ill effects at all and excellent repartitioning too, would you prefer I put heavily weighted studies like that in here?! I would be guilty of cherry picking studies just like the op was, so no, I won't do that. A study can't prove anything either way, so try it yourself, it works, or not, but what else can I say? Do your own homework if you wanna waste hours on PunMed. I did that 10 years ago, been using it since then with no probs. You can do all the research you like but you will not know until you try for yourself, because the proof rests in results.

Honestly myself I would prefer you put those studies in here. I have tried finding studies on DHEA increasing test and will search again. Just was hoping you could give me a little extra hope in a DHEA product before I throw 50 bones at it. But maybe I'll just go waste more time on PubMed before making you a richer man.

 

[EasyEJL]

17, 16 and 3. I guess maybe the DHEA has worked too well!

I feel for you my friend. It's 3 on 2 here but the females seem to FAR out number you in your house!

Even worse, we had a sleepover "back to school" party with 5 additional 11-12 yo girls over. I had to take some 6-oxo just to avoid estrogen in the air.

 

[Hyde12]

I like DHEA. I use about 25-50mgs ED. I think it has the most use to replace DHEA that is lost in TRT. I do notice some diminishing returns from it and I usually stop for a couple of days and then start again. I have never used more than 100mgs though.

 

[FitnFirm]

Pat,

If your suggesting that supplementing with DHEA will cause gyno, make you fat and block your muscle gains, that is flat out wrong. Out of the hundreds of users of Dermacrine, which probably has a dose comparable to a 700mg/oral dose of DHEA, we’ve maybe had 1-2 complaints about “sore nipples”… the rest of the feedback was from guys that reduced BF, increased their lifts, and found a new untapped energy source.

DHEA converts to many more hormones besides 5-Adiol. (BTW, 5-Adiol is great for the immune system) Consider the metabolites 4-Adiol, Triol, Adione, Stanedione, Stanediole, Test, 7-alpha DHEA, 7-oxo DHEA, ect. This is only part of a whole hormone milieu from DHEA which encourages muscle gain, fat loss and sexual function.

As I explained in my previous post, in-vitro studies with cancer-cell lines often have little to do with the real-world effects with supplements. Especially studies using irrelevant super-physiological doses in isolated cell-lines.

-Pp

Will you marry me ?








edit- Whoops Im already married but you can be my friend

 

[jasonschaffin]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=16784956&ordinalpos=5&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum
if anyone here is HIV positive it is good

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=16784898&ordinalpos=6&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum
this will be a good study for the antiaging crowd

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=15783247&ordinalpos=10&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum
increased test in women, but not men?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=10601178&ordinalpos=16&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum
hope you have more than 150mg's/day in SDNG

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=10372727&ordinalpos=19&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum
increased estrogen but not testosterone

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=9876338&ordinalpos=20&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum
again raised test in women not men

1: J Endocrinol Invest. 1999;22(10 Suppl):24-8.Links
Acute oral administration of dehydroepiandrosterone in male subjects: effect of age on bioavailability, sulfoconjugation and bioconversion in other steroids.Valenti G, Banchini A, Denti L, Maggio M, Ceresini G, Ceda GP.
Chair of Geriatrics, University of Parma, Italy.

PMID: 10727030 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

could use the rest of this study

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=7840167&ordinalpos=57&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum
increased REM but not hormone levels

 

[jasonschaffin]

that is all the searching I have in me today, lol

 

[macedaddy]

Pat,

If your suggesting that supplementing with DHEA will cause gyno, make you fat and block your muscle gains, that is flat out wrong. Out of the hundreds of users of Dermacrine, which probably has a dose comparable to a 700mg/oral dose of DHEA, we’ve maybe had 1-2 complaints about “sore nipples”… the rest of the feedback was from guys that reduced BF, increased their lifts, and found a new untapped energy source.

DHEA converts to many more hormones besides 5-Adiol. (BTW, 5-Adiol is great for the immune system) Consider the metabolites 4-Adiol, Triol, Adione, Stanedione, Stanediole, Test, 7-alpha DHEA, 7-oxo DHEA, ect. This is only part of a whole hormone milieu from DHEA which encourages muscle gain, fat loss and sexual function.

As I explained in my previous post, in-vitro studies with cancer-cell lines often have little to do with the real-world effects with supplements. Especially studies using irrelevant super-physiological doses in isolated cell-lines.

-Pp

:clap2: :goodpost: :head: :thumbsup:

 

[Eric Potratz]

that is all the searching I have in me today, lol

Oral DHEA has never been a big T booster in men, but it will boost androgenic and anabolic hormones related to Testosterone.

Here is an interesting read –

http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/82/8/2403

-Pp

 

[jasonschaffin]

Oral DHEA has never been a big T booster in men, but it will boost androgenic and anabolic hormones related to Testosterone.

Here is an interesting read –

http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/82/8/2403

-Pp

Very interesting. Some of it a little over my head but gives me more faith in a use for DHEA. Thanks for that post. Replies like this are what keep the thread informative.

 

[macedaddy]

Very interesting. Some of it a little over my head but gives me more faith in a use for DHEA. Thanks for that post. Replies like this are what keep the thread informative.

agreed! :thumbsup:

 

[DR.D]

Honestly myself I would prefer you put those studies in here. I have tried finding studies on DHEA increasing test and will search again. Just was hoping you could give me a little extra hope in a DHEA product before I throw 50 bones at it. But maybe I'll just go waste more time on PubMed before making you a richer man.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=2961787&ordinalpos=5&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

Fair enough Jason, but I'm telling you, you really have to try it to know. All these studies can provide guidelines but that's about it.

 

[jasonschaffin]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=2961787&ordinalpos=5&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

Fair enough Jason, but I'm telling you, you really have to try it to know. All these studies can provide guidelines but that's about it.

LOL, wow I skipped right over that study. Remember seeing the title but was looking more for hormone changes I guess. That is an impressive dose, interesting that there were no changes in hormone levels really. Is the SD-NG dosed anywhere near that high? Lends more credence to the article posted by PP too.

 

[DR.D]

Even worse, we had a sleepover "back to school" party with 5 additional 11-12 yo girls over. I had to take some 6-oxo just to avoid estrogen in the air.

Oh wow, I think I'd need 10mg diazepam stacked with that oxo if I were you! I can hear the squealing even now.

 

[bioman]

I "think" DHEA may have contributed to a recent gyno flare but there were several compounding factors;

1. I've had gyno in the same spot before.

2. had been using Lugol's solution for several months at about 25 mg which may have altered my E/E2 expression

and

3. the combo of Lugols and 50 mg of DHEA along with Forskohlin had me quasi hyperthyroidal. Last test showed TSH low/normal and free T4 at the very high end of normal.



That said, I am a fan of DHEA in low doses for the mental aspects and hope to use it again when I get my thyroid levels to calm down. If the gyno flares again though..no more DHEA for me.

 

[DR.D]

LOL, wow I skipped right over that study. Remember seeing the title but was looking more for hormone changes I guess. That is an impressive dose, interesting that there were no changes in hormone levels really. Is the superdrol-NG dosed anywhere near that high? Lends more credence to the article posted by PP too.

I don't think I can talk dose yet until it's officially released next week, but let's just say it an "effective" dose, at least in my subjective experience. It can be tailored plus or minus a cap to suit your individual requirements.

 

[DR.D]

I "think" DHEA may have contributed to a recent gyno flare but there were several compounding factors;

1. I've had gyno in the same spot before.

2. had been using Lugol's solution for several months at about 25 mg which may have altered my E/E2 expression

and

3. the combo of Lugols and 50 mg of DHEA along with Forskohlin had me quasi hyperthyroidal. Last test showed TSH low/normal and free T4 at the very high end of normal.



That said, I am a fan of DHEA in low doses for the mental aspects and hope to use it again when I get my thyroid levels to calm down. If the gyno flares again though..no more DHEA for me.

Sounds like a possible TSH rebound or something in the nature. That low of dose should barely be perceivable, at least endocrinologically.

 

[DR.D]

Oral DHEA has never been a big T booster in men, but it will boost androgenic and anabolic hormones related to Testosterone.

Here is an interesting read –

http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/82/8/2403

-Pp

I read an article in a scientific journal (forget the ref now) almost 15 years ago in my college library demonstrating the ability of DHEA to actually transform fat cells into muscle cells! Before that, it was not believed that cells of a specific type could actually change into different cells. I have been looking for DHEA ever since!