Crossroads

[alexandros101]

Hi all, new here and need a little help because I feel I’m at somewhat of a crossroads.

Been natural for 22 years and at 42 decided to dip my toe into the world of PEDs. I’ve been “on” for 4 weeks running 200 test, 100 primo and put on 5lbs (most gains I’ve made in years Prior to my cycle my natural hormones were always fine: 20nmol totally natural, 40nmol on 12.5mg Clomid MWF.

So anyway, feel I need some guidance from some experienced people as I feel I have about 3 options available to me:

1) Continue to run the above mild cycle/TRT+ (250-300mg total made from test/primo) for a long time, get bloodwork intermittently to check in fine and get on with life.
2) Come off at the 8-12 week mark, PCT + time off, repeat-perhaps do 1-2 cycles per year.
3) Shoot for the shorter cycle approach-short esters, on for 5-6 weeks, short PCT, time off, repeat. Probably 3-4 cycles per year.

So bearing in mind my age and your experience, what route would you go down.

Thanks

 

[Mikereyn513]

Unfortunately this is a decision you're going to have to make in your own. It all depends on your lifestyle, job, family etc...I mean 22 tears so your obviously committed and disciplined, also what are your goals? Do you plan on competing or just doing it recreational? But if you want an answer for me it's option 1 but again I don't have kids, I've been recently widowed, I have a decent paying job so option 1 works for me Im just way more agressive with my cycles not saying yiu should tho, you're actually doing the right thing staying very low

 

[Smont]

Sooooooo ......... Your natural testosterone production wasn't ok before because you were using clomid as a form of trt. The clomid is what was representative of your testosterone levels.

The cycle your on now is just a hair above trt, it's very reasonable and there's lots of guys who stay on a "trt" protocol like that indefinitely.

If I was you I would continue on with what your doing as long as bloodwork is in check as I would feel much better on testosterone then clomid as my trt.

You could ride out the 200/100 and if any problems arise (bloodwork will give the answers) but it would most likely be something you could fix by dropping primo and lowering the testosterone to the 120-150 range.

Just a jumble of my thoughts on the topic. Ultimately it's a lifestyle decision you gotta make. I know a few guys pushing 60 that stay on 300-400 total mg of gear pretty much year round. Not saying you should, just pointing out they do it without much issue

 

[Rocket3015]

I know you said you were new, so I will tell you @Smont is very wise and well educated in this field!

 

[alexandros101]

Unfortunately this is a decision you're going to have to make in your own. It all depends on your lifestyle, job, family etc...I mean 22 tears so your obviously committed and disciplined, also what are your goals? Do you plan on competing or just doing it recreational? But if you want an answer for me it's option 1 but again I don't have kids, I've been recently widowed, I have a decent paying job so option 1 works for me Im just way more agressive with my cycles not saying yiu should tho, you're actually doing the right thing staying very low

Just recreational mate-but I guess Father Time is catching up and I’d like to make a little more progress But then again, who doesn’t?

 

[alexandros101]

Sooooooo ......... Your natural testosterone production wasn't ok before because you were using clomid as a form of trt. The clomid is what was representative of your testosterone levels.

The cycle your on now is just a hair above trt, it's very reasonable and there's lots of guys who stay on a "trt" protocol like that indefinitely.

If I was you I would continue on with what your doing as long as bloodwork is in check as I would feel much better on testosterone then clomid as my trt.

You could ride out the 200/100 and if any problems arise (bloodwork will give the answers) but it would most likely be something you could fix by dropping primo and lowering the testosterone to the 120-150 range.

Just a jumble of my thoughts on the topic. Ultimately it's a lifestyle decision you gotta make. I know a few guys pushing 60 that stay on 300-400 total mg of gear pretty much year round. Not saying you should, just pointing out they do it without much issue

Great insight, thanks for the response buddy

 

[alexandros101]

I know you said you were new, so I will tell you @Smont is very wise and well educated in this field!

Cheers mate

 

[Smont]

Just recreational mate-but I guess Father Time is catching up and I’d like to make a little more progress But then again, who doesn’t?

https://youtube.com/@anabolicbodybuilding

If you wanna know about putting on some real muscle in your 40's and up then this is your guy

 

[alexandros101]

https://youtube.com/@anabolicbodybuilding

If you wanna know about putting on some real muscle in your 40's and up then this is your guy

Yeah love that channel mate, tons of great info

 

[Mikereyn513]

Just recreational mate-but I guess Father Time is catching up and I’d like to make a little more progress But then again, who doesn’t?

I hear exactly what your saying bro im in the same boat..lol

 

[Rocket3015]

Just recreational mate-but I guess Father Time is catching up and I’d like to make a little more progress But then again, who doesn’t?

Kick Father Time In The Teeth and Take What Is Yours !!

 

[alexandros101]

Kick Father Time In The Teeth and Take What Is Yours !!

Exactly-**** that!

 

[Hyde]

The last option only works when you’re in your very early twenties, and you feel like crap most of the time then because you’re constantly shut down and on SERMs trying to yo-yo back endogenous testosterone.

Frequent short ester blast models are for people already cruising or on some iteration of HRT. Like, option 3 is an aggressive compliment ON TOP OF option 1, typically with more competitive goals in mind at the expense of potential longevity.

At your age and already desiring to use Clomid, option 2 isn’t a great way to keep much. You can do the yo-yo for some years but don’t expect to keep much of the ground you gain, and it will expedite needing to go on TRT.

 

[alexandros101]

The last option only works when you’re in your very early twenties, and you feel like crap most of the time then because you’re constantly shut down and on SERMs trying to yo-yo back endogenous testosterone.

Frequent short ester blast models are for people already cruising or on some iteration of HRT. Like, option 3 is an aggressive compliment ON TOP OF option 1, typically with more competitive goals in mind at the expense of potential longevity.

At your age and already desiring to use Clomid, option 2 isn’t a great way to keep much. You can do the yo-yo for some years but don’t expect to keep much of the ground you gain, and it will expedite needing to go on TRT.

Thanks for the reply-really useful

 

[Jinsun]

Hi all, new here and need a little help because I feel I’m at somewhat of a crossroads.

Been natural for 22 years and at 42 decided to dip my toe into the world of PEDs. I’ve been “on” for 4 weeks running 200 test, 100 primo and put on 5lbs (most gains I’ve made in years Prior to my cycle my natural hormones were always fine: 20nmol totally natural, 40nmol on 12.5mg Clomid MWF.

So anyway, feel I need some guidance from some experienced people as I feel I have about 3 options available to me:

1) Continue to run the above mild cycle/TRT+ (250-300mg total made from test/primo) for a long time, get bloodwork intermittently to check in fine and get on with life.
2) Come off at the 8-12 week mark, PCT + time off, repeat-perhaps do 1-2 cycles per year.
3) Shoot for the shorter cycle approach-short esters, on for 5-6 weeks, short PCT, time off, repeat. Probably 3-4 cycles per year.

So bearing in mind my age and your experience, what route would you go down.

Thanks

What are your levels on 200 test?

 

[alexandros101]

What are your levels on 200 test?

Not sure yet-bloods in 4-6 weeks

 

[Jinsun]

Not sure yet-bloods in 4-6 weeks

Wait to see what your levels are. In spite of some people here saying 200 is trt, it actually isn't, for a lot of people. For me, 200 test e, at Tmax (point in time where blood serum values are highest), brings my TT (total testosterone) to above 2000 ng/dl. So that is very, very far from a replacement physiological dosage. 200 mg's is not trt for most people. And no 1000 ng/dl, with free testosterone levels outside physiological ranges is also not TRT. That's already in the territory of TRT+.

You must understand that trt is not the same as being natural. It's not just as simple as replacing your endogenous production. Your hormone levels follow a circadian, ultradian rhythm and are tightly controlled by your body, adapting to various situations and stressors. For instance, androgens have a big impact on your HPA axis. And your androgen levels will drop, if your body "needs a rest", giving you peace of mind, so that the anxiety can dissipate. Something that mechanically doesn't happen if you are self administering aas. LH also has it's functions in the brain and no, hcg is not the best replacement. Brain also goes through morphological changes due to higher aas exposure (or due to higher estrogens). Not to mention that androgens are dopaminergic and effect how glutamate (the main excitatory neurotransmitter) effects your neurons. Testosterone is neuroprotective, so is estrogen, but that only applies to normal physiological levels.

Cycling all the time is stupid and dangerous. And being in a constant state of elevated androgen levels trt+ or even a cruise) is also moronic from a health perspective. Yes, we all know that, but few have any idea about all the consequences they're actually putting them selfs up against. It's not just cardiovascular outcomes that one needs to worry about. Id say your brain an mental health can suffer a great deal too, but it's gradual and thus, you might not really notice it untill you're all ADHD like (for all intents and purposes you are actually adhd), chronic anxiety ridden and your ego goes up with a simultaneous loss of IQ, cognitive flexibility, etc. Ie. you become a stiff headed mo fo. For some this is more noticeable then for others, as they didn't have much to loose in the first place and for some it's unbearable (you don't see artists, philosopher, writers, etc. on such protocols). Not to mention all the physiological risks you're putting your self up against. Will you do echo cardio grams, arterial stiffness measurements, monitor your heart health via bloods (you even know how to do that?), checking your liver, and other organs, ...? You must become your own endocrinologist, hear doc, liver doc, etc. It's painful, and all for what, looking a bit better in the mirror?

If you want sound advice about important stuff like this, don't look it up on an aas forum obsessed with prohormones and supplements. This chit is far more complicated then most here can imagine or are willing to admit. 20 nmol/l are normal, solid levels. You've got a good thing going on there. If you don't feel good, check your free t levels and why they are low.

My 2 cents. Best of luck to you.

 

[alexandros101]

Wait to see what your levels are. In spite of some people here saying 200 is trt, it actually isn't, for a lot of people. For me, 200 test e, at Tmax (point in time where blood serum values are highest), brings my TT (total testosterone) to above 2000 ng/dl. So that is very, very far from a replacement physiological dosage. 200 mg's is not trt for most people. And no 1000 ng/dl, with free testosterone levels outside physiological ranges is also not TRT. That's already in the territory of TRT+.

You must understand that trt is not the same as being natural. It's not just as simple as replacing your endogenous production. Your hormone levels follow a circadian, ultradian rhythm and are tightly controlled by your body, adapting to various situations and stressors. For instance, androgens have a big impact on your HPA axis. And your androgen levels will drop, if your body "needs a rest", giving you peace of mind, so that the anxiety can dissipate. Something that mechanically doesn't happen if you are self administering aas. LH also has it's functions in the brain and no, hcg is not the best replacement. Brain also goes through morphological changes due to higher aas exposure (or due to higher estrogens). Not to mention that androgens are dopaminergic and effect how glutamate (the main excitatory neurotransmitter) effects your neurons. Testosterone is neuroprotective, so is estrogen, but that only applies to normal physiological levels.

Cycling all the time is stupid and dangerous. And being in a constant state of elevated androgen levels trt+ or even a cruise) is also moronic from a health perspective. Yes, we all know that, but few have any idea about all the consequences they're actually putting them selfs up against. It's not just cardiovascular outcomes that one needs to worry about. Id say your brain an mental health can suffer a great deal too, but it's gradual and thus, you might not really notice it untill you're all ADHD like (for all intents and purposes you are actually adhd), chronic anxiety ridden and your ego goes up with a simultaneous loss of IQ, cognitive flexibility, etc. Ie. you become a stiff headed mo fo. For some this is more noticeable then for others, as they didn't have much to loose in the first place and for some it's unbearable (you don't see artists, philosopher, writers, etc. on such protocols). Not to mention all the physiological risks you're putting your self up against. Will you do echo cardio grams, arterial stiffness measurements, monitor your heart health via bloods (you even know how to do that?), checking your liver, and other organs, ...? You must become your own endocrinologist, hear doc, liver doc, etc. It's painful, and all for what, looking a bit better in the mirror?

If you want sound advice about important stuff like this, don't look it up on an aas forum obsessed with prohormones and supplements. This chit is far more complicated then most here can imagine or are willing to admit. 20 nmol/l are normal, solid levels. You've got a good thing going on there. If you don't feel good, check your free t levels and why they are low.

My 2 cents. Best of luck to you.

Superb response-thanks so much

I’m assuming based on that you don’t use PEDs?

 

[Mikereyn513]

Superb response-thanks so much

I’m assuming based on that you don’t use PEDs?

Exactly so he can take that self righteous b.s. outta here. This isnt about being " healthy" bodybuilding us not healthy, this forum is about doing it the healthiest way possible so you can do it as long as possible.

 

[alexandros101]

Exactly so he can take that self righteous b.s. outta here. This isnt about being " healthy" bodybuilding us not healthy, this forum is about doing it the healthiest way possible so you can do it as long as possible.

Yeah agreed. What’s really struck me recently is this-at work, I work with a lot of people who are older than me. Obviously non of them train or take PEDs and without exception they all have a multitude of physical ailments and definite cognitive decline. They haven’t lived a “sensible” bodybuilding lifestyle and yet ALL still suffer from many, many issues. My thoughts might be this-figure out how to “optimise”/enhance oneself (this will take time/energy) and I would like to think in my 60s/70s I won’t be suffering on the same scale which they are. I might be wrong but I’m almost willing to take the risk because from what I see, living a “natural life” doesn’t look particularly great as one ages.

 

[Jinsun]

Exactly so he can take that self righteous b.s. outta here. This isnt about being " healthy" bodybuilding us not healthy, this forum is about doing it the healthiest way possible so you can do it as long as possible.

You've got a really limited scope of reasoning there mate. It's not about self righteous b.s. (also, I did not attack you, so why not give me the benefit of the doubt?), rather, it's me learning from my mistakes and passing that knowledge to others. You're acting like: "now it's my time to make those same mistakes, so don't you lecture me as you did the same!". So let me tell you this; I went into all of this without knowing all that I know now. And you are being advised by the "same people" that I was, who also don't know nearly as enough and are thus painting you the wrong picture. It's really as simple as that. It's morons giving advice to morons. Heck, maybe ya'll deserve each other, it's natural selection non the less. If I knew all the chit that I know now, I would have never dipped my toes in to the bodybuilding enhancement route. There is so much more to life then a few grams of extra meat on your sticks, that it's incomprehensible to limit one self that way. But, and this is a big but, I wont judge anybody, we all function on different levels, and we all have different limitations we have to contend with, so if this is "it" for somebody, then who am I to stand it their way. But just know, you are not aware of all the downfalls of aas use/abuse, so your rationale upon which you decide "if it's worth it or not" is lacking/incomplete. Your are talking about gene expression changing drugs, not just taking a random nootropic or some Adderall ... Explain to me; why do aas cause impulse behavior? How do the mechanisms that lead to those outcomes change the brain, acutely and on the long run? What systems get impacted? Etc.

Life happens in your head, literarily everything that you experience happens there, so limiting your cognition, emotional processing, IQ, etc. for the sake of being a bit bigger is not worth it to me. If you think it's worth it, again, nobody here knows what aas actually do to the brain, and by everybody here I mean here, on this forum, they are too uneducated, and this stuff is more subtle then a heart attack so it's harder to talk about it with regular Joes who are too materialistic (not focusing on what's going on in their head in the first place). But what would you do if I told you that aas lead to a higher chance of developing adhd, dementia, lead to chronic anxiety, depression, emotional dysregulation, unstable personality disorders, etc. and you actually believed that what I'm saying isn't nonsense? Androgens are good for one thing and one thing alone: getting chit done. That is a fight or flight response. You seriously think being in that mode most of the time is healthy?

Am I self righteous? I am saying aas are more bad then you know/can imagine. I am saying I was an idiot for abusing them. I am saying; research more before you make such strong commitments as going on trt or even trt+/cruise. You want to make the same mistakes? Go ahead, I'm not saying I'm any better then you - if you do decide to do that. We'll both be morons together I might be condescending, but I'm not self righteous. I think you used the wrong word there, but don't worry, as that will happen more and more often as your IQ drops, you'll get used to it, increasingly not being the brightest pea in the pond.

Is this a harm prevention board or a harm enabling board? Does all the knowledge that we have now on aas use lead to less people using or more? Think about it. Do some basic research:

Testosterone increases neurotoxicity of glutamate in vitro and ischemia-reperfusion injury in an animal model - PubMed

Increasing evidence has demonstrated striking sex differences in the outcome of neurological injury. Whereas estrogens contribute to these differences by attenuating neurotoxicity and ischemia-reperfusion injury, the effects of testosterone are unclear. The present study was undertaken to...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Sex and age dependent effects of androgens on glutamate-induced cell death and intracellular calcium regulation in the developing hippocampus

Hippocampal neurons must maintain control over cytosolic calcium levels, especially during development, as excitation and calcium flux is necessary for proper growth and function. But excessive calcium can lead to excitotoxic cell death. Previous work ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Testosterone Induces Molecular Changes in Dopamine Signaling Pathway Molecules in the Adolescent Male Rat Nigrostriatal Pathway

Adolescent males have an increased risk of developing schizophrenia, implicating testosterone in the precipitation of dopamine-related psychopathology. Evidence from adult rodent brain indicates that testosterone can modulate nigrostriatal dopamine. However, ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

etc. etc.

 

[Hyde]

^Imagine your cognizance of the Dunning-Kruger effect actually enabling the same myopic egotism as the demographic you scorn.

**** being an artist. You only get one life to live - I choose to live passionately, without regret.

 

[Jinsun]

^Imagine your cognizance of the Dunning-Kruger effect actually enabling the same myopic egotism as the demographic you scorn.

**** being an artist. You only get one life to live - I choose to live passionately, without regret.

I'm not scoring anybody my feeble minded friend. Live as you like and I hope it all turns out well for you.

 

[Jinsun]

You only get one life to live - I choose to live passionately, without regret.

I once did a docu about lung cancer. Most cancer patients had the same attitude as you put it; "I chose to live passionately" ... When they were dying, they didn't think the same anymore. You know why? It's because they didn't die in one day. It was a long process, a couple of years even for some. The process of slowly dying destroyed them, their loved ones, their life's. You can take your passion and stick it up your delusional little deadlifting ass. Illness comes in many shapes and forms, and if we're talking about cognitive decline, mental illness, etc. it's even worse then some lung cancer. You get dragged down, everybody around you gets dragged down. You can spew out as many one liners as you want, but when you'll be neck deep in your own chit of patheticism, suffering, you'll drag down yourself and everybody who loves you just the same as everybody else. Heck, even a heart attack doesn't need to be fatal. You can have eye loss, brain damage, limbs not working anymore, etc. What then? Will you put a gun to your head and not let your poor decisions drag you and your loved one down? Will you be that brave? Save your delusional bs for yourself and don't spew it out here with some one-liners, trying to make yourself present with more depth then you can actually imagine yet alone proficiently use in your little brain. You have absolutely zero clue what you are talking about. Go lift some weights monkey boy and hope the bar drops on your head while you'll have your heart attack, so it does the deed you wont be able to do for yourself once the time of your passions come knocking on your door.

Not that you can't be passionate without drugs. Yes, you must insert steroids up your ass to live a passionate life! We're all morons, you me, everybody, and we're all addicts. But we all choose this without knowing all the consequences. Why? Because the bodybuilding community in large is run by delusional addicts, blindfolding them self's but also simply being ignorant. We can talk about this all day long my friend. You can start by explaining why steroids cause hyperactivity and what those outcomes predict for future state of your neurobiology and while you're at it, let me hear you speak about arterial stiffness as a prediction of ones biological age, or what roles does LH have in the cortex, or wait, what about arterial markers that signify damage, surely you at least must know about them, how about genetics, what polymorphisms would you perform before committing to a life of steroid abuse (do you even know what a polymorphism is)? I'm waiting.

 

[botk1161]

Don't feed the troll

 

[Hyde]

I once did a docu about lung cancer. Most cancer patients had the same attitude as you put it; "I chose to live passionately" ... When they were dying, they didn't think the same anymore. You know why? It's because they didn't die in one day. It was a long process, a couple of years even for some. The process of slowly dying destroyed them, their loved ones, their life's. You can take your passion and stick it up your delusional little deadlifting ass. Illness comes in many shapes and forms, and if we're talking about cognitive decline, mental illness, etc. it's even worse then some lung cancer. You get dragged down, everybody around you gets dragged down. You can spew out as many one liners as you want, but when you'll be neck deep in your own chit of patheticism, suffering, you'll drag down yourself and everybody who loves you just the same as everybody else. Heck, even a heart attack doesn't need to be fatal. You can have eye loss, brain damage, limbs not working anymore, etc. What then? Will you put a gun to your head and not let your poor decisions drag you and your loved one down? Will you be that brave? Save your delusional bs for yourself and don't spew it out here with some one-liners, trying to make yourself present with more depth then you can actually imagine yet alone proficiently use in your little brain. You have absolutely zero clue what you are talking about. Go lift some weights monkey boy and hope the bar drops on your head while you'll have your heart attack, so it does the deed you wont be able to do for yourself once the time of your passions come knocking on your door.

Not that you can't be passionate without drugs. Yes, you must insert steroids up your ass to live a passionate life! We're all morons, you me, everybody, and we're all addicts. But we all choose this without knowing all the consequences. Why? Because the bodybuilding community in large is run by delusional addicts, blindfolding them self's but also simply being ignorant. We can talk about this all day long my friend. You can start by explaining why steroids cause hyperactivity and what those outcomes predict for future state of your neurobiology and while you're at it, let me hear you speak about arterial stiffness as a prediction of ones biological age, or what roles does LH have in the cortex, or wait, what about arterial markers that signify damage, surely you at least must know about them, how about genetics, what polymorphisms would you perform before committing to a life of steroid abuse (do you even know what a polymorphism is)? I'm waiting.

The powerlifter in me is really distressed he associated my identity with my deadlift instead of my squat.

Guess I struck a nerve

















Also, how could someone put a gun to their head if their limbs cease to work?

 

[Nac]

Well, I dont think anyone needs to justify their choices to anyone else here.

Also, I think how each person deals with "regret" will be a big factor. I could live my life trying to optimise longevity, then die in my 50s of some genetic disease I had no chance of preventing. Would I regret all my efforts as in vain? Would I regret declining oppurtunities that may have in some way enriched my life because they didnt align with my longevity philosophies?

Would I regret abusing PEDs because I got dementia? Or prostate cancer? Or CVD? Were the PEDs even the cause?

Theres obviously some sort of balance here between risk and cost and consequence that we all must make and either accept or regret. We cant eliminate all risks, only accept that some are innevitable and that all the rest we take on because thats what we believe at the time is "living our best life".

 

[Hyde]

Well, I dont think anyone needs to justify their choices to anyone else here.

Also, I think how each person deals with "regret" will be a big factor. I could live my life trying to optimise longevity, then die in my 50s of some genetic disease I had no chance of preventing. Would I regret all my efforts as in vain? Would I regret declining oppurtunities that may have in some way enriched my life because they didnt align with my longevity philosophies?

Would I regret abusing PEDs because I got dementia? Or prostate cancer? Or CVD? Were the PEDs even the cause?

Theres obviously some sort of balance here between risk and cost and consequence that we all must make and either accept or regret. We cant eliminate all risks, only accept that some are innevitable and that all the rest we take on because thats what we believe at the time is "living our best life".

You just don’t get it - your simian AAS-addled brain could never comprehend. If you could just actually understand these arcane rodent model studies, you’d surely come to the conclusion that years of life is more important than the life in your years.

 

[Mikereyn513]

Sorry guys I guess my "roid rage" got the best of me this morning an set this dude off