Chronic fatigue

[HIT4ME]

It is not. No real medical professional (i.e. not a quack) believes in it. Please explain to me the pathology behind it (and don't say it's addison's disease).

Please explain to me the pathology behind Alzheimer's disease? All I'm aware of is a list of symptoms.

 

[HIT4ME]

One doesn't need medical training to apply logical reasoning and statistical verification

What line of logical reasoning do you usually use to prove that something does not exist?

Synapsins stance is probably based on experience and true or false it probably serves a purpose in that people often believe one thing is wrong and there is an underlying cause that would be missed if the hypothesis is not questioned, so I'm all for that. And his stance beyond experience is tough to defend.

Chronic fatigue may be a unicorn - we may not have any evidence and it may be generally accepted that it has never been seen, but proving outright that it doesn't exist is not really possible.

 

[scherbs]

HIT4ME there actually is a pathology behind Alzheimers (amyloid plaques and tangled tau fibers) whereas CFS is at best a vague list of symptoms that can be caused by a multitude of other (much more plausible) reasons.
Proof of nonexistence is a logical impossibility and not medicines job. But neither is creating "diseases" like CFS to give people who feel tired a label to call themselves.

 

[cheftepesh1]

Get a sleep study to see if you have apnea or are actually entering REM sleep. Then worry about supplements.

Was thinking this as well. Could be apnea or something like that.

 

[Daycrawler]

One doesn't need medical training to apply logical reasoning and statistical verification

Sure.

What statistical proof?

 

[HIT4ME]

HIT4ME there actually is a pathology behind Alzheimers (amyloid plaques and tangled tau fibers) whereas CFS is at best a vague list of symptoms that can be caused by a multitude of other (much more plausible) reasons.
Proof of nonexistence is a logical impossibility and not medicines job. But neither is creating "diseases" like CFS to give people who feel tired a label to call themselves.

Amyloid/Tau are symptoms, but the issue is we don't really have a pathology or a cause that we understand. Normal brains have Amyloid build up too, I believe, but the build up clears quickly. We don't really have a clear understanding as to the functional breakdown behind Alzheimer's, although there are many theories, inculding arginine deficiency. The point is, that is a disease that is well accepted to exist, but doesn't have any pathology beyond symptoms. Chronic fatigue. At a base level, defines it's own symptoms - chronic fatigue.

And don't get me wrong, I agree with you on some levels - anyone can use logic, and it isn't sciences job to make up diseases. I think Synapsis' point is that labelling something as chronic fatigue is kind of a non-diagnosis diagnosis. It doesn't get to what is causing the issue, which is probably something that already has a diagnostic strategy. Chronic fatigue being too vague, as you say, to really be useful in treatment.

But to say it doesn't exist because of no KNOWN pathology, just isn't logical.

I'm just taking a different angle too, so that we may all learn. Greedily, I'm most interested in me learning and your challenges and hopefully Synapsin's responses/challenges will get me thinking and learning something.

 

[scherbs]

Amyloid/Tau are symptoms, but the issue is we don't really have a pathology or a cause that we understand. Normal brains have Amyloid build up too, I believe, but the build up clears quickly. We don't really have a clear understanding as to the functional breakdown behind Alzheimer's, although there are many theories, inculding arginine deficiency. The point is, that is a disease that is well accepted to exist, but doesn't have any pathology beyond symptoms. Chronic fatigue. At a base level, defines it's own symptoms - chronic fatigue.

And don't get me wrong, I agree with you on some levels - anyone can use logic, and it isn't sciences job to make up diseases. I think Synapsis' point is that labelling something as chronic fatigue is kind of a non-diagnosis diagnosis. It doesn't get to what is causing the issue, which is probably something that already has a diagnostic strategy. Chronic fatigue being too vague, as you say, to really be useful in treatment.

But to say it doesn't exist because of no KNOWN pathology, just isn't logical.

I'm just taking a different angle too, so that we may all learn. Greedily, I'm most interested in me learning and your challenges and hopefully Synapsin's responses/challenges will get me thinking and learning something.

The whole point of diagnosing a "bundle" of symptoms as a disease is to indicate that said symptoms share a common root cause and thus likely treatment. CFS has been used to label a vague and nebulous set of symptoms, each of which has their own unique and only partially overlapping causes. The label CFS is useless for treatment aside from giving people a "reason" for why they feel bad. It thus prevents, rather than promotes proper treatment.

And Tau and Amyloid are pathological indicators of the existence of Alzheimers: memory loss and erratic behavior would be the symptoms (among others)

 

[kboxer7]

It is not. No real medical professional (i.e. not a quack) believes in it. Please explain to me the pathology behind it (and don't say it's addison's disease).

My gf has been diagnosed with it by medical professionals. I know her doctors and they are respected in their fields.

She has anti-phospholipid syndrome, a side effect of which is often chronic fatigue syndrome.

A simple google search will reveal that those two ailments have been connected and are real.

Not interested in a lengthy argument. I just wanted to throw it out there that I know someone diagnosed.

If you disagree, we can still be friends : )

 

[Justlooking5]

It is not. No real medical professional (i.e. not a quack) believes in it. Please explain to me the pathology behind it (and don't say it's addison's disease).

I didn't say "Chronic fatigue syndrome," is real, but chronic (i.e., constant) general fatigue/malaise/low motivation/energy is real and associated with things like depression, low test., poor sleep (sleep apnea), etc.

 

[Dunamis1]

Always run down and tired and worse as the day goes on. Thinking gets cloudier, energy gets lower,etc. Multis don't help, caffeine is like water .

Ever tried reducing the frequency of orgasms? Nobody wants to do it sure, but it will do wonders in alot of different areas. If you are watching porn that crap will suck the life out of you over time.

 

[toddmuelheim]

Ever tried reducing the frequency of orgasms? Nobody wants to do it sure, but it will do wonders in alot of different areas. If you are watching porn that crap will suck the life out of you over time.

Not true actually studies show that watching porn increases sperm motility by 36% and increases grip strength by a whopping 71.6%

 

[Dunamis1]

Not true actually studies show that watching porn increases sperm motility by 36% and increases grip strength by a whopping 71.6%

LMAO

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Ever tried reducing the frequency of orgasms? Nobody wants to do it sure, but it will do wonders in alot of different areas. If you are watching porn that crap will suck the life out of you over time.

Not sure if serious...

 

[Conagher]

It is not. No real medical professional (i.e. not a quack) believes in it. Please explain to me the pathology behind it (and don't say it's addison's disease).

You are a ****ing idiot spouting bull****

 

[puccah8808]

Ever tried reducing the frequency of orgasms? Nobody wants to do it sure, but it will do wonders in alot of different areas. If you are watching porn that crap will suck the life out of you over time.

I don't know about you but it wakes me the F up every morning. It's better than a venti Americano with coconut milk and 2 sweet and low.

 

[kboxer7]

I don't know about you but it wakes me the F up every morning. It's better than a venti Americano with coconut milk and 2 sweet and low.

Well then : )

 

[Chefdeez]

It is not. No real medical professional (i.e. not a quack) believes in it. Please explain to me the pathology behind it (and don't say it's addison's disease).

100% wrong.

 

[Daycrawler]

You are a ****ing idiot spouting bull****

Yes, the neurosurgeon and phD in Neuroscience individual is a "****ing idiot"

 

[Synapsin]

You are a ****ing idiot spouting bull****

100% wrong.

Please provide proof it is real, thanks.

 

[Aleksandar37]

In for this fun ride

 

[Chefdeez]

Please provide proof it is real, thanks.

According to the center for disease and prevention, as well as several doctors I know, it is a real condition.

http://www.cdc.gov/cfs/diagnosis/

Just because there is no specific blood test/screening for it doesn't mean the condition isn't real. Most doctors will work to rule out another cause first but still, doesn't mean it isn't a real condition.

No 2 doctors have to agree on a diagnosis, which is the reason why the term "second opinion" exists.

 

[ma70]

No medical degrees here, but CFS just seems so vague in general that could be caused by so many other things, which is why I can see Synapsin's viewpoint on it. You could be "tired all the time" for a number of reasons, right?

 

[Chefdeez]

No medical degrees here, but CFS just seems so vague in general that could be caused by so many other things, which is why I can see Synapsin's viewpoint on it. You could be "tired all the time" for a number of reasons, right?

Yes which is why a good doctor will work to find another cause first. Could be a million things.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

According to the center for disease and prevention, as well as several doctors I know, it is a real condition.

http://www.cdc.gov/cfs/diagnosis/

Just because there is no specific blood test/screening for it doesn't mean the condition isn't real. Most doctors will work to rule out another cause first but still, doesn't mean it isn't a real condition.

No 2 doctors have to agree on a diagnosis, which is the reason why the term "second opinion" exists.

I think that perhaps what Synapsin is getting at, or at least my takeaway from all of this, is that CFS cannot be truly diagnosed unless EVERY other possibility is ruled out, which is not realistically possible. It seems almost certain that "chronic fatigue," while certainly a real thing (people can be chronically fatigued) can probably be attributed to some cause (either some sort of medical condition, environmental/physical stress, unhealthy habits, etc) that should be discovered and treated/addressed as opposed to just settling on a diagnosis of CFS. I'm not a doctor though.

 

[Woody]

I am chronically fatigued. It's called law school and a full time job plus a girlfriend at home and a pretty badass little pup.

 

[Aleksandar37]

Yes which is why a good doctor will work to find another cause first. Could be a million things.

Alright, but is this really showing that it's CFS? Isn't this simply saying what the patient's condition isn't?

 

[kboxer7]

Synapsin is a smart guy.

I think his point, if I may, was that there is NO identifiable pathology for CFS and that symptoms are often a manifestation of an underlying condition.

 

[HIT4ME]

Since we are all speculating on what Synapsin's thinks, I am reminded that any theory that explains everything, explains nothing and is unusable.

I don't think calling Synapsin an idiot provides any evidence that he is wrong, even if I think his stance is a little harsh.

 

[Woody]

I mean... I thought Synapsin was calling me beautiful.

 

[Chefdeez]

Yeah I'm with you guys on this. I know Synapsis knows his stuff and I respect his opinions. It's just not fair to say no doctor would diagnose it.

 

[Aleksandar37]

It is literally not a recognized disease by any physician who knows what they are talking about. People will always point to one or two quacks that believe in it, but when 99% of the field thinks its not real...

Yeah I'm with you guys on this. I know Synapsis knows his stuff and I respect his opinions. It's just not fair to say no doctor would diagnose it.

He didn't say no doctor would diagnose it...

 

[Synapsin]

I think that perhaps what Synapsin is getting at, or at least my takeaway from all of this, is that CFS cannot be truly diagnosed unless EVERY other possibility is ruled out, which is not realistically possible. It seems almost certain that "chronic fatigue," while certainly a real thing (people can be chronically fatigued) can probably be attributed to some cause (either some sort of medical condition, environmental/physical stress, unhealthy habits, etc) that should be discovered and treated/addressed as opposed to just settling on a diagnosis of CFS. I'm not a doctor though.

This is precisely the issue, but what do I know, I'm apparently an idiot, lol.

 

[Synapsin]

Synapsin is a smart guy.

I think his point, if I may, was that there is NO identifiable pathology for CFS and that symptoms are often a manifestation of an underlying condition.

That is the issue. There is no way any physician has enough time to rule out the plethora of possible issues to reach such a diagnosis. Even the CDC description linked above basically backs what I've said. Also sorry for the delay in responses, it was my birthday this week so I've been busy lol

 

[Jiigzz]

My guess is that your adrenals are exhausted.

 

[Chiefsnation23]

Have you looked into Celiac disease? I am also going through a drought with fatigue after 3 deployments in 5 years. I don't feel stressed though. I have recently given up gluten and do feel a noticeable difference!

 

[Chiefsnation23]

Btw magnesium is great for brain fog.

 

[mr.cooper69]

Have you looked into Celiac disease? I am also going through a drought with fatigue after 3 deployments in 5 years. I don't feel stressed though. I have recently given up gluten and do feel a noticeable difference!

If someone came to me with fatigue, I would never suggest eliminating gluten.

The most common causes of fatigue, in order, are psychosomatic, anemia, and hypothyroidism

 

[ma70]

If someone came to me with fatigue, I would never suggest eliminating gluten.

The most common causes of fatigue, in order, are psychosomatic, anemia, and hypothyroidism

Oh sh*t...he's back! Nice!

 

[Woody]

If someone came to me with fatigue, I would never suggest eliminating gluten.

The most common causes of fatigue, in order, are psychosomatic, anemia, and hypothyroidism

A COOPER SITING!!!!!!!


Damn ma70 beat me

 

[ma70]

A COOPER SITING!!!!!!!


Damn ma70 beat me

*sighting

So yeah....back to chronic fatigue....

 

[kboxer7]

If someone came to me with fatigue, I would never suggest eliminating gluten.

The most common causes of fatigue, in order, are psychosomatic, anemia, and hypothyroidism

I would add in Apnea and other sleep disorders : )

 

[Woody]

*sighting

So yeah....back to chronic fatigue....

My thinking was distracted. I knew it didn't look right but wanted to be first. Now I look dumb and not even first

 

[Chiefsnation23]

If someone came to me with fatigue, I would never suggest eliminating gluten.

The most common causes of fatigue, in order, are psychosomatic, anemia, and hypothyroidism

You wouldn't but celiac disease (gluten sensitivity) block absorption of key vitamins. So some people who are anemic is caused by celiac blocking key nutrients making its way through the body. You should check out some research on it. It's pretty interesting and very effective for people who are struggling with these issues that don't initially show up on blood work.

 

[thescience]

Is it possible the guy who started this thread hasnt participated in two weeks because he thinks we're a bunch of a-holes?

 

[Woody]

You wouldn't but celiac disease (gluten sensitivity) block absorption of key vitamins. So some people who are anemic is caused by celiac blocking key nutrients making its way through the body. You should check out some research on it. It's pretty interesting and very effective for people who are struggling with these issues that don't initially show up on blood work.

I'm gonna go on a whim and say Coop has read research on it.

 

[Chiefsnation23]

I'm gonna go on a whim and say Coop has read research on it.

Right on. Im just saying the gut-brain connection is strong and sometimes it can be as simple as diet. Especially if a Dr. is giving you the run around and saying your depressed. Worth a shot right?

 

[mr.cooper69]

You wouldn't but celiac disease (gluten sensitivity) block absorption of key vitamins. So some people who are anemic is caused by celiac blocking key nutrients making its way through the body. You should check out some research on it. It's pretty interesting and very effective for people who are struggling with these issues that don't initially show up on blood work.

Believe me I'm aware how this works. Celiac does not cause anemia, as folate, b12, and iron are all water soluble.

Celiac also has a presentation involving malodorous stools, diarrhea, weight loss, etc. It causes fatigue secondary to poor energy intake.

I wouldn't just take a shotgun approach to fatigue like that. Initial bloods with Cbc, tsh, free t4 along with physical exam would come first

 

[mr.cooper69]

I would add in Apnea and other sleep disorders : )

Unfortunately, apnea is a growing cause of fatigue. This is usually characterized by sleepiness though, rather than overall physical fatigue

 

[Jiigzz]

Unfortunately, apnea is a growing cause of fatigue. This is usually characterized by sleepiness though, rather than overall physical fatigue

Welcome back Cooper!