Ara, Epi, HMB

JaredGalloway

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This is gonna be a weird question... I've been trying the combination of Ara, Epicatechin, and hmb... Hmb reduces inflammation through the ub-pathway, Epicatechin also reduces inflammation and possibly makes your body less receptive to anaerobic adaptations, and obviously we all know Ara increases inflammation... So my question is why am I getting such insane performance benefits from supplements that basically "counteract" one another? And has anyone else ever tried this combo before
 
sns8778

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This is gonna be a weird question... I've been trying the combination of Ara, Epicatechin, and hmb... Hmb reduces inflammation through the ub-pathway, Epicatechin also reduces inflammation and possibly makes your body less receptive to anaerobic adaptations, and obviously we all know Ara increases inflammation... So my question is why am I getting such insane performance benefits from supplements that basically "counteract" one another? And has anyone else ever tried this combo before
There could be more than one answer to your question.

Part 1 - I've said for a long time that I don't think recovery based ingredients like HMB and Epicatechin would interfere with results from ARA nearly as much as some people say they will; especially if the dosages are spaced out from one another.

Part 2 - a lot of HMB and Epicatechin products on the market are actually not what they are supposed to be and wouldn't meet label claims. So there's also that possible dynamic depending on the brands you're using of them.
 

JaredGalloway

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Awesome I appreciate the feedback 🙂... I wonder if anyone has any experience combining these...
 

Resolve10

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This is gonna be a weird question... I've been trying the combination of Ara, Epicatechin, and hmb... Hmb reduces inflammation through the ub-pathway, Epicatechin also reduces inflammation and possibly makes your body less receptive to anaerobic adaptations, and obviously we all know Ara increases inflammation... So my question is why am I getting such insane performance benefits from supplements that basically "counteract" one another? And has anyone else ever tried this combo before
I am about to workout, so I don't have to time to fully answer this, but I can circle back if anyone actually cares.

That out of the way being VERY brief, the study you are probably referencing doesn't say that at all. If you actually read the study anaerobic adaptations were fine, it was long term aerobic adaptations that may be hampered. How much that even is true AND if that even applies to how most people (muscular gains, strength, etc.) that use it need to worry is entirely debatable.

There could be more than one answer to your question.

Part 1 - I've said for a long time that I don't think recovery based ingredients like HMB and Epicatechin would interfere with results from ARA nearly as much as some people say they will; especially if the dosages are spaced out from one another.

Part 2 - a lot of HMB and Epicatechin products on the market are actually not what they are supposed to be and wouldn't meet label claims. So there's also that possible dynamic depending on the brands you're using of them.
Part 1: I think we have more understanding now than when ArA first dropped, but it is definitely more complicated than inflammation turned on with ArA then turned off with other ingredients and "cancelling" eachother out. So I totally agree.

I wouldn't really worry about this combo honestly.
 

JaredGalloway

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Man spelling is not my best quality... I wasn't really worried about it just wanted to hear other people's opinions on it or experiences... Thanks
 

Resolve10

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Man spelling is not my best quality... I wasn't really worried about it just wanted to hear other people's opinions on it or experiences... Thanks
Ya you should be good. It has been YEARS, but if I dug enough I am pretty sure I ran HMB + ArA with no issues in the past. This was before Epicatechin was even around and I haven't used ArA in forever, but I was a big fan back in the day.
 

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I remember running HMB all the time during cutting. It was supposed to help preserve muscle mass when cutting I think. I haven't used it in maybe 20 years or so. Don't think I ever ran it with HMB though, so I can't be of much help. Wonder if I should try it again.
 
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I remember running HMB all the time during cutting. It was supposed to help preserve muscle mass when cutting I think. I haven't used it in maybe 20 years or so. Don't think I ever ran it with HMB though, so I can't be of much help. Wonder if I should try it again.
I used to use it for the same purpose back then too. I think it was a great ingredient for its time. I remember when ON made their massive sized HMB capsules. Those were size 000 capsules which is something you rarely ever see bc hardly anyone makes capsules that size anymore. They were massive haha.

I think that now days, it has just been surpassed by things like Phosphatidic Acid XT and PeptiStrong that will be in Pepti-Plex.
 

Resolve10

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I used to use it for the same purpose back then too. I think it was a great ingredient for its time. I remember when ON made their massive sized HMB capsules. Those were size 000 capsules which is something you rarely ever see bc hardly anyone makes capsules that size anymore. They were massive haha.

I think that now days, it has just been surpassed by things like Phosphatidic Acid XT and PeptiStrong that will be in Pepti-Plex.
Ya I definitely think it had some good benefits, but price and newer things seemed to have made it a little obsolete. Also, I did find the 3 day dosing scheme to be best, but it was also a bit inconvenient.
 

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I used to use it for the same purpose back then too. I think it was a great ingredient for its time. I remember when ON made their massive sized HMB capsules. Those were size 000 capsules which is something you rarely ever see bc hardly anyone makes capsules that size anymore. They were massive haha.

I think that now days, it has just been surpassed by things like Phosphatidic Acid XT and PeptiStrong that will be in Pepti-Plex.
Great ingredient. There is a lot of potential for this one. The market hasn't even begun to utilize this ingredient to its full potential. I am currently making a product with this ingredient too. :) It will be a while, though.
 

Mike Arnold

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Ya I definitely think it had some good benefits, but price and newer things seemed to have made it a little obsolete. Also, I did find the 3 day dosing scheme to be best, but it was also a bit inconvenient.
I think HMB is still a great product, but more so as an ADDITION to other ingredients. It certainly has benefits and makes a great stacker with anabolic compounds.
 
sns8778

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Great ingredient. There is a lot of potential for this one. The market hasn't even begun to utilize this ingredient to its full potential. I am currently making a product with this ingredient too. :) It will be a while, though.
I’m glad to hear that you’re a fan of PeptiStrong. I agree, there are so many potential uses for it and also agree that the market hasn’t even begun to utilize it to its full potential.

We’ll be launching Pepti-Plex soon and I’m super excited about it. I love the science and ingredients and helping people, but I’ve been doing this so long that not a lot of ingredients really super excite me anymore, and PeptiStrong really does.

Pepti-Plex will be PeptiStrong plus some other cool ingredients and it will be able to be used to build muscle, retain muscle while dieting, maintain muscle during periods of time that someone may be unable to train (ex. Injuries, vacation, etc).

But there are two things that excite me in a different way and that’s the potential for it to help ppl recovering from injuries, which is special to me after what I’ve gone thru for the last year and a half after my accident. And a big one, that it can help people maintain muscle and strength as they age which can be so significant for quality of life. Like this is something I wish I could go back in time and given to my parents and grandparents. So, this is a project that really means a lot to me.
 
sns8778

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I think HMB is still a great product, but more so as an ADDITION to other ingredients. It certainly has benefits and makes a great stacker with anabolic compounds.
I agree. I think when it was introduced it was a great primary ingredient in its time period, but not it’s more like a good supporting ingredient.
 
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I used to use it for the same purpose back then too. I think it was a great ingredient for its time. I remember when ON made their massive sized HMB capsules. Those were size 000 capsules which is something you rarely ever see bc hardly anyone makes capsules that size anymore. They were massive haha.

I think that now days, it has just been surpassed by things like Phosphatidic Acid XT and PeptiStrong that will be in Pepti-Plex.
They use to do aminos in jumbo pressed pills too. I remember being in high-school and opening the bottle and stunned thinking I'm gonna choke to death on that thing lol. They were like double the size of a Swedish fish candy lol. Why did on use all those monster pills lol
 
nickodemus

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I used to use it for the same purpose back then too. I think it was a great ingredient for its time. I remember when ON made their massive sized HMB capsules. Those were size 000 capsules which is something you rarely ever see bc hardly anyone makes capsules that size anymore. They were massive haha.

I think that now days, it has just been surpassed by things like Phosphatidic Acid XT and PeptiStrong that will be in Pepti-Plex.
I don't remember if this has been asked or was already mentioned will Pepti-plex have to be cycled
 

Mike Arnold

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I don't remember if this has been asked or was already mentioned will Pepti-plex have to be cycled
I know you didn't ask me this question, but the research does not show anything to indicate that cycling is necessary. On top of that, simply having a basic understanding of protein peptides indicates cycling is unnecessary. PeptiStrong is a peptide fragment isolated from a whole protein source. Namely, fava beans. This particular peptide, which makes up a tiny portion of the actual protein within fava beans, functions as a mTOR activator...and a potent one, at that. It also significantly reduces myostatin levels!
However, don't confuse PeptiStrong with protein powders. PeptiStrong is NOT a complete protein. It is simply a small part of a particular protein and does not serve as a building block, such as EAAs. Rather, it serves as an anabolic messenger. It sends a message to upregulate protein synthesis via mTOR signaling (via multiple pathways). So, you cannot substitute this stuff for protein powders or EAAs, but when added to protein powders/EAAs/whole food, it enables the body to take greater advantage of those building blocks for muscle growth.

Research shows that PeptiStrong has the ability to increases protein synthesis 400% more than milk protein isolate. That's pretty darn impressive. In terms of real world results, is has been shown to enhance recovery, increase strength, prevent muscle loss, and activate the body's primary muscle building machinery. We haven't yet seen any studies demonstrating significant increases in lean mass, but that that is ONLY because the clinical trials conducted so far haven't been designed to evaluate muscle gain. Instead, they have evaluated it's ability to prevent muscle loss in injured patients (non-training people), as well as it's ability to promote recovery after training. The latter was a short study, with the data being evaluated after just 3 days of training, so we shouldn't expect to see any meaningful growth within such a short period of time. Aside from that, I don't think the researcher's even bothered to check if any lean mass had been acquired. They had other priorities, I suppose.

I could be completely wrong about the following, but I anticipate PeptiStrong becoming one of the industry's top muscle builders, with Phosphatidic acid being the other one. Which one do I think will be a better muscle gainer? I'm not sure, but honestly, I am leaning towards PeptiStrong, especially when used at optimal dosages. The thing with PeptiStrong is that it has a wide, yet universally effective dosing range. Researchers have evaluated the effects of as little as 2.4 grams daily and as much as 20 grams daily. The 2.4 gram dose was used in the study that evaluated recovery, strength gain/retention, and genetic markers of muscle growth 72 hours post-training. The results were good, even with a small dose like this.

We haven't yet been able to see what large doses can accomplish...because even though 20 grams was studied, it was in a hospitalized setting with injured, non-training people. Clearly, such as study design will NOT yield the information we all want to know, which is "what kind of gains can this stuff actually produce?" If it is like most muscle building ingredients out there, larger dosages will probably yield superior results, but to what point? Does it provide linear, dose-dependent increases in muscle mass? If so, at what dose do we begin to see diminishing returns? And if the dose-response curve is not linear, how out of sync is it? What is the cost-effective dosing range? We don't yet know any of this yet.

I am sure we'll receive all these answers eventually, but for now, my guess is that the dose-response curve is probably fairly linear when dealing with lower doses, and begins to gradually fall off as the dose rises. But who knows how wide its effective dosing range might be. Results might abruptly fall off after just 5 grams, or it might be 30 grams. Who knows, but I am excited to find out! Cost is going to be the main deterrent when it comes to exploring larger doses, so fully answering this question might end up taking years.

To my knowledge, only a few companies have included it in their products at this point. I believe Glaxon was one of them (basically as a solo ingredient), as well as one other company that added it to their protein powder product (which is a great idea). I can't remember for sure, but I think both companies used the 2.4 gram (per serving) dosage.
 
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Resolve10

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Glaxon has it 2.4g with one other ingredient (but at $90) and cellular has it at 1.2g in a full formula with way too much else for me to remember.
 

JaredGalloway

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Great responses I haven't posted or looked at these forums in probably a few years... Looking forward to trying peptistrong... Anything that can help with catabolism is a win in my book
 
sns8778

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They use to do aminos in jumbo pressed pills too. I remember being in high-school and opening the bottle and stunned thinking I'm gonna choke to death on that thing lol. They were like double the size of a Swedish fish candy lol. Why did on use all those monster pills lol
The reason was to be able to say they were 1,000 mg. per pill or more - but yeah, I'd much rather swallow more smaller capsules than jumbo pills.
 
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I know you didn't ask me this question, but the research does not show anything to indicate that cycling is necessary. On top of that, simply having a basic understanding of protein peptides indicates cycling is unnecessary. PeptiStrong is a peptide fragment isolated from a whole protein source. Namely, fava beans. This particular peptide, which makes up a tiny portion of the actual protein within fava beans, functions as a mTOR activator...and a potent one, at that. It also significantly reduces myostatin levels!
However, don't confuse PeptiStrong with protein powders. PeptiStrong is NOT a complete protein. It is simply a small part of a particular protein and does not serve as a building block, such as EAAs. Rather, it serves as an anabolic messenger. It sends a message to upregulate protein synthesis via mTOR signaling (via multiple pathways). So, you cannot substitute this stuff for protein powders or EAAs, but when added to protein powders/EAAs/whole food, it enables the body to take greater advantage of those building blocks for muscle growth.

Research shows that PeptiStrong has the ability to increases protein synthesis 400% more than milk protein isolate. That's pretty darn impressive. In terms of real world results, is has been shown to enhance recovery, increase strength, prevent muscle loss, and activate the body's primary muscle building machinery. We haven't yet seen any studies demonstrating significant increases in lean mass, but that that is ONLY because the clinical trials conducted so far haven't been designed to evaluate muscle gain. Instead, they have evaluated it's ability to prevent muscle loss in injured patients (non-training people), as well as it's ability to promote recovery after training. The latter was a short study, with the data being evaluated after just 3 days of training, so we shouldn't expect to see any meaningful growth within such a short period of time. Aside from that, I don't think the researcher's even bothered to check if any lean mass had been acquired. They had other priorities, I suppose.

I could be completely wrong about the following, but I anticipate PeptiStrong becoming one of the industry's top muscle builders, with Phosphatidic acid being the other one. Which one do I think will be a better muscle gainer? I'm not sure, but honestly, I am leaning towards PeptiStrong, especially when used at optimal dosages. The thing with PeptiStrong is that it has a wide, yet universally effective dosing range. Researchers have evaluated the effects of as little as 2.4 grams daily and as much as 20 grams daily. The 2.4 gram dose was used in the study that evaluated recovery, strength gain/retention, and genetic markers of muscle growth 72 hours post-training. The results were good, even with a small dose like this.

We haven't yet been able to see what large doses can accomplish...because even though 20 grams was studied, it was in a hospitalized setting with injured, non-training people. Clearly, such as study design will NOT yield the information we all want to know, which is "what kind of gains can this stuff actually produce?" If it is like most muscle building ingredients out there, larger dosages will probably yield superior results, but to what point? Does it provide linear, dose-dependent increases in muscle mass? If so, at what dose do we begin to see diminishing returns? And if the dose-response curve is not linear, how out or sync is it? What is the cost-effective dosing range? We don't yet know any of this yet.

I am sure we'll receive all these answers eventually, but for now, my guess is that the dose-response curve is probably fairly linear when dealing with lower doses, and begins to gradually fall off as the dose rises. But who knows how wide its effective dosing range might be. Results might abruptly fall off after just 5 grams, or it might be 30 grams. Who knows, but I am excited to find out! Cost is going to be the main deterrent when it comes to exploring larger doses, so fully answering this question might end up taking years.

To my knowledge, only a few companies have included it in their products at this point. I believe Glaxon was one of them (basically as a solo ingredient), as well as one other company that added it to their protein powder product (which is a great idea). I can't remember for sure, but I think both companies used the 2.4 gram (per serving) dosage.
Great post. And I agree - no, I don't think PeptiStrong needs to be cycled. I think that's part of what makes it really exciting is that it should yield nice great results consistently.

I've seen some people that don't understand the science make out like the increasing protein synthesis 400% more than milk protein isolate isn't a big deal - which is so inaccurate because as you pointed out, that's really impressive.

Glaxon uses the 2.4 gram dose and Cellucor uses 1.2 grams; then the company using it in a protein uses 2.4 grams.

Pepti-Plex will be 2.4 grams per serving + some other cool ingredients.
 
sns8778

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I don't remember if this has been asked or was already mentioned will Pepti-plex have to be cycled
Mike did a really good reply to your post above and he's correct in that it doesn't have to be cycled - which I think is part of what is super exciting because it should deliver really good consistent gains. And also, through the methods of action, it has the ability to help increase your gains from other supplements that you may be using as well.

Pepti-Plex will be something that can be used long-term and should enhance the results of many other things you use by increasing protein synthesis and priming other muscle building pathways.
 
nickodemus

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I know you didn't ask me this question, but the research does not show anything to indicate that cycling is necessary. On top of that, simply having a basic understanding of protein peptides indicates cycling is unnecessary. PeptiStrong is a peptide fragment isolated from a whole protein source. Namely, fava beans. This particular peptide, which makes up a tiny portion of the actual protein within fava beans, functions as a mTOR activator...and a potent one, at that. It also significantly reduces myostatin levels!
However, don't confuse PeptiStrong with protein powders. PeptiStrong is NOT a complete protein. It is simply a small part of a particular protein and does not serve as a building block, such as EAAs. Rather, it serves as an anabolic messenger. It sends a message to upregulate protein synthesis via mTOR signaling (via multiple pathways). So, you cannot substitute this stuff for protein powders or EAAs, but when added to protein powders/EAAs/whole food, it enables the body to take greater advantage of those building blocks for muscle growth.

Research shows that PeptiStrong has the ability to increases protein synthesis 400% more than milk protein isolate. That's pretty darn impressive. In terms of real world results, is has been shown to enhance recovery, increase strength, prevent muscle loss, and activate the body's primary muscle building machinery. We haven't yet seen any studies demonstrating significant increases in lean mass, but that that is ONLY because the clinical trials conducted so far haven't been designed to evaluate muscle gain. Instead, they have evaluated it's ability to prevent muscle loss in injured patients (non-training people), as well as it's ability to promote recovery after training. The latter was a short study, with the data being evaluated after just 3 days of training, so we shouldn't expect to see any meaningful growth within such a short period of time. Aside from that, I don't think the researcher's even bothered to check if any lean mass had been acquired. They had other priorities, I suppose.

I could be completely wrong about the following, but I anticipate PeptiStrong becoming one of the industry's top muscle builders, with Phosphatidic acid being the other one. Which one do I think will be a better muscle gainer? I'm not sure, but honestly, I am leaning towards PeptiStrong, especially when used at optimal dosages. The thing with PeptiStrong is that it has a wide, yet universally effective dosing range. Researchers have evaluated the effects of as little as 2.4 grams daily and as much as 20 grams daily. The 2.4 gram dose was used in the study that evaluated recovery, strength gain/retention, and genetic markers of muscle growth 72 hours post-training. The results were good, even with a small dose like this.

We haven't yet been able to see what large doses can accomplish...because even though 20 grams was studied, it was in a hospitalized setting with injured, non-training people. Clearly, such as study design will NOT yield the information we all want to know, which is "what kind of gains can this stuff actually produce?" If it is like most muscle building ingredients out there, larger dosages will probably yield superior results, but to what point? Does it provide linear, dose-dependent increases in muscle mass? If so, at what dose do we begin to see diminishing returns? And if the dose-response curve is not linear, how out of sync is it? What is the cost-effective dosing range? We don't yet know any of this yet.

I am sure we'll receive all these answers eventually, but for now, my guess is that the dose-response curve is probably fairly linear when dealing with lower doses, and begins to gradually fall off as the dose rises. But who knows how wide its effective dosing range might be. Results might abruptly fall off after just 5 grams, or it might be 30 grams. Who knows, but I am excited to find out! Cost is going to be the main deterrent when it comes to exploring larger doses, so fully answering this question might end up taking years.

To my knowledge, only a few companies have included it in their products at this point. I believe Glaxon was one of them (basically as a solo ingredient), as well as one other company that added it to their protein powder product (which is a great idea). I can't remember for sure, but I think both companies used the 2.4 gram (per serving) dosage.
Fantastic, thank you for the response and all the information
 

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This is fun discussion, but if I may briefly circle back to the original question, the answer is basically that it’s a little more complicated than x increases inflammation and y decreases inflammation. With ARA supplementation, you’re looking for specific metabolites which result from muscular damage to signal recovery and growth. So while this is an inflammatory process, not everything which is anti-inflammatory will interfere. There’s really two main things to watch when trying to maximize the results of ARA. For one, omega 3s, which can compete with and even displace ARA in cells. Then you’ll want to watch for COX inhibitors, which will interfere with the signaling pathway we’re looking for. I think even some NSAIDs won’t necessarily bother this. Im not really familiar with all the biology involved here.
 

Resolve10

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This is fun discussion, but if I may briefly circle back to the original question, the answer is basically that it’s a little more complicated than x increases inflammation and y decreases inflammation. With ARA supplementation, you’re looking for specific metabolites which result from muscular damage to signal recovery and growth. So while this is an inflammatory process, not everything which is anti-inflammatory will interfere. There’s really two main things to watch when trying to maximize the results of ARA. For one, omega 3s, which can compete with and even displace ARA in cells. Then you’ll want to watch for COX inhibitors, which will interfere with the signaling pathway we’re looking for. I think even some NSAIDs won’t necessarily bother this. Im not really familiar with all the biology involved here.
Ya it was always an interesting discussion.

Jiigzz old thread was a great resource for anyone interested.
 
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I wanted to let everyone that has been following this thread and the discussion on PeptiStrong know that we just launched Pepti-Plex yesterday.

Check out the intro thread for the full write up, a lot of great information, and some really cool sales and special offers.

 
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They use to do aminos in jumbo pressed pills too. I remember being in high-school and opening the bottle and stunned thinking I'm gonna choke to death on that thing lol. They were like double the size of a Swedish fish candy lol. Why did on use all those monster pills lol
I will one up those ON Amino 2222 tabs with a no longer made Universal 3000mg amino tab. Pictured below next to a 500mg Vit C tablet, a dime and a standard chapstick. Now these suckers "trained" you for a potential shift into "adult" entertainment were one so inclined. lol
 

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I will one up those ON Amino 2222 tabs with a no longer made Universal 3000mg amino tab. Pictured below next to a 500mg Vit C tablet, a dime and a standard chapstick. Now these suckers "trained" you for a potential shift into "adult" entertainment were one so inclined. lol
Lol
 

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