11-oxo = 3-AD???

[rxp1997]

forgive my ignorance, but several postings have left me thoroughly confused. is 11-oxo the same as 3-AD?

to showcase my confusion, I am taking 11-oxo for cortisol control during my post-cycle therapy. if it indeed is the same as 3-AD, which needs pct, I may be screwing things up. Could someone clear this up for me? Fortunately I am only on day 3, so it's early enough to change without consequences.

 

[macedaddy]

YES!

you NEED post cycle therapy for 11-oxo!

 

[brywal312]

Its not a terribly big time PCT for oxo. I am going to be starting mine in about a week or so. I will let you know how it goes. I am taking advanced PCT, Reset AD, Kreaceps, Citruval, and incarnate for mine. If I was worried about libido I would be taking paravol but I just broke up so...

 

[Alpine]

forgive my ignorance, but several postings have left me thoroughly confused. is 11-oxo the same as 3-AD?

to showcase my confusion, I am taking 11-oxo for cortisol control during my post-cycle therapy. if it indeed is the same as 3-AD, which needs post cycle therapy, I may be screwing things up. Could someone clear this up for me? Fortunately I am only on day 3, so it's early enough to change without consequences.

Yes, 3-AD/11-OXO can be suppressive although not very much. It is mild. At low doses you wouldnt see much suppression. It shouldn't be thought of as a post cycle therapy compound though. Honestly, at a low/normal dose for only 4 weeks a 18-30 year old male should bounce back EXTREMELY well from 11-OXO/3-AD alone. I dont even know if it would require a long SERM based post cycle therapy like most androgens and pro-hormones (designers). If you have a SERM a couple weeks wont hurt I guess. Just keep in mind its not horribly suppressive. I highly doubt you will notice any testicle atrophy and this is the main sign that you are shut down. A lot of guys in the 80's and early 90's didnt even know what the hell PCT was... LOL

There is some more information at the end of this review I'm doing of 3-AD.

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/68628-3-ad-super.html

 

[rxp1997]

i was concerned about taking something that requires pct as part of my pct. the product marketing touts it as cortisol controller and makes no mention of requiring pct. The funny yet sad part is i emailed customer service about dosage and in my email told them I was using it for controlling cortisol during my pct, and Jared at customer support raised no red flags...

I will be switching to Retain2.

Also, to NutraPlanet, it might be a good idea to update the product info.

 

[Alpine]

i was concerned about taking something that requires post cycle therapy as part of my post cycle therapy. the product marketing touts it as cortisol controller and makes no mention of requiring post cycle therapy. The funny yet sad part is i emailed customer service about dosage and in my email told them I was using it for controlling cortisol during my post cycle therapy, and Jared at customer support raised no red flags...

I will be switching to Retain2.

Also, to NutraPlanet, it might be a good idea to update the product info.

Well, to be quite honest, If you were coming off a REAL cycle (test, tren, etc.) this probably WOULD be very beneficial for keeping cortisol in check during a long, slow recovery process. This type of situation does not occur with normal, short prohormone cycles and especially not 11-OXO.

moreover, anabolic steroids upregulate glucocorticoid receptors, which is a VERY bad thing when you quit taking the anabolic steroids. then you will really need something to modify cortisol levels.
From that perspective, it would even make sense to use low-dose 11-oxo for post cycle therapy after any harsh or prolonged anabolic steroids cycle.

PA, just as a idea: I am sure that 11-oxo would be of high interest for the guys int he steroid section who seek something to improve post cycle therapy and minimize muscle loss after cycle.

a very low dose would apparently be not suppressive but sufficient for cortisol modulation.

To sum things up:

A) I doubt you were that shut down to begin with.
B) 11-oxo did not ruin your post cycle therapy, it may not have sped it up but your cortisol is in check. It takes a VERY high dose of 11-OXO to be suppressive.

Ergo's marketing claims about 11-OXO have been accurate and down to earth from what I have seen so far.

Calm down, You will be fine.... I love how everyone gets all excited about a proper post cycle therapy yet slamming fistfuls of methyls is commonplace. God I love this industry.

 

[brywal312]

Calm down, You will be fine.... I love how everyone gets all excited about a proper post cycle therapy yet slamming fistfuls of methyls is commonplace. God I love this industry.

Yeah, who cares about my liver as long as I dont get B17C# tits...:toofunny:

 

[rxp1997]

it was a 7week havoc cycle, and I just started my pct (day 4), so I dont think its ruined. It would have been nice to know it's not suppressive at low-doses (3caps/day?) and requiring pct at higher (6caps/day?). Being my first cycle/pct, I put a lot of thought into it and chose 11-oxo for cortisol control, and I naturally have that fear of doing things wrong as I lack cycle experience to back me up. sorry for coming a little strong, and I appreciate the advice.

Me thinks I'll save the 11-oxo for my next "on" cycle as pwo cort control.

 

[flytrapcan]

Maybe good for a pulse cycle? You know just mentioning pulse cyles is becoming so trendy - I'm trendy! :drunk:

 

[thewilman]

it was a 7week havoc cycle, and I just started my post cycle therapy (day 4), so I dont think its ruined.

Hey RXP...what are you taking for PCT besides 11-OXO?

 

[rxp1997]

Hey RXP...what are you taking for post cycle therapy besides 11-OXO?

torem 120/90/60/30
atd 25/50/50/75
maca, fenugeek, paravol
TNA (the usplabs kind until libido kicks in, then hopefully some of the female kind :head: )
11-oxo
adding MassFX to keep strength gains in weeks 2-4
cycle support
Poseidon

 

[thewilman]

torem 120/90/60/30
atd 25/50/50/75
maca, fenugeek, paravol
TNA (the usplabs kind until libido kicks in, then hopefully some of the female kind :head: )
11-oxo
adding MassFX to keep strength gains in weeks 2-4
cycle support
Poseidon

Phew! I thought you were taking 11-OXO ALONE for a 7 week Havoc cycle. I think as long as you drop the 11-OXO, you'll be fine w/ Torem and ATD. Well planned PCT. Consider Lean Xtreme for Cortisol. Good luck!

BTW, how were your gains after 7 weeks on Havoc?

 

[rxp1997]

I trolled posts for months before getting the cojones to try my first cycle, with a newbie-friendly ph, and then a few more before coming up with my pct (call it a concensus of all good pcts I have seen in this board).

the gains were really good, went from 224 to 233 with no discernable fat gain, got some nice mass on most bodyparts and nice cuts on the delts. If I can keep my weight at 230 I will be very happy. strength did climb, but I also started DC and I scheduled my 7week blast during my cycle, so I can't tell how much came from DC and how much from havoc. I plan another one in like 4 months, a short 4week w/o the slow ramp, going straight to 40mg. Thinking of adding furazadrol to that one....

 

[thewilman]

I trolled posts for months before getting the cojones to try my first cycle, with a newbie-friendly ph, and then a few more before coming up with my post cycle therapy (call it a concensus of all good pcts I have seen in this board).

the gains were really good, went from 224 to 233 with no discernable fat gain, got some nice mass on most bodyparts and nice cuts on the delts. If I can keep my weight at 230 I will be very happy. strength did climb, but I also started DC and I scheduled my 7week blast during my cycle, so I can't tell how much came from DC and how much from havoc. I plan another one in like 4 months, a short 4week w/o the slow ramp, going straight to 40mg. Thinking of adding furazadrol to that one....

You did a great job. Nice gains. There's some posts about stacking furazadrol and epi/havoc around. Looks like an interesting stack. :thumbsup:

 

[macedaddy]

torem 120/90/60/30
atd 25/50/50/75
maca, fenugeek, paravol
TNA (the usplabs kind until libido kicks in, then hopefully some of the female kind :head: )
11-oxo
adding MassFX to keep strength gains in weeks 2-4
cycle support
Poseidon

just so you know, the ATD will most likely KILL your libido........

 

[rxp1997]

just so you know, the ATD will most likely KILL your libido........

Roger that, that's why I added the maca, fenugreek and paravol (and TNA has some trib in there) . I'm kicking in the mfx in weeks 2-4 for strength and for libido too as the atd dosage goes up, might add powerfull the last week or two as I have a big tub of bulk still lying around. it can't be as bad as the second half of my cycle, it can only get better...

 

[macedaddy]

Roger that, that's why I added the maca, fenugreek and paravol (and TNA has some trib in there) . I'm kicking in the mfx in weeks 2-4 for strength and for libido too as the atd dosage goes up, might add powerfull the last week or two as I have a big tub of bulk still lying around. it can't be as bad as the second half of my cycle, it can only get better...

why not add the powerfull in from the start? i am not that familiar with it, but i am pretty sure one of its benefits is prolactin-inhibitor.......:think:

 

[rxp1997]

yeah, thought about it, but i didn't want a kitchen-sink stack, thought I'd add it if libido still was low or recovery was harder w/o the havoc in my system. didn't know prolactin-inhibition was one of it's effects, might reconsider... right now more interested in getting the right cortisol supp for pct (most likely retain2 or lx)

appreciate the input

 

[raptor2003]

YES!

you NEED post cycle therapy for 11-oxo!

you sure?

he said he is taking 11-oxo for PCT

11-oxo is marketed as a selective cortisol modulator

3-ad as a prohormone

this means 11-oxo dosage is low, according to pat/rushi no PCT is required if dosage is low, unless one decides to megadose on 11-oxo

in your case 3-ad requires PCT because of the higher dosage

11-oxo low dose of for cortisol control should not require PCT

 

[thewilman]

you sure?

he said he is taking 11-oxo for post cycle therapy

11-oxo is marketed as a selective cortisol modulator

3-ad as a prohormone

this means 11-oxo dosage is low, according to pat/rushi no PCT is required if dosage is low, unless one decides to megadose on 11-oxo

in your case 3-ad requires PCT because of the higher dosage

11-oxo low dose of for cortisol control should not require PCT

He was taking 11-OXO AS PCT for a Havoc Cycle. Read the earlier posts.

 

[raptor2003]

forgive my ignorance, but several postings have left me thoroughly confused. is 11-oxo the same as 3-AD?

to showcase my confusion, I am taking 11-oxo for cortisol control during my post-cycle therapy. if it indeed is the same as 3-AD, which needs post cycle therapy, I may be screwing things up. Could someone clear this up for me? Fortunately I am only on day 3, so it's early enough to change without consequences.

cortisol control is the key word

unless he chimes in and say 11-oxo is the only thing in his PCT arsenal

anyways PCT for havoc requires much more than just 11-oxo be it low or high dose

 

[thewilman]

:study:

Hey RXP...what are you taking for post cycle therapy besides 11-OXO?

torem 120/90/60/30
atd 25/50/50/75
maca, fenugeek, paravol
TNA (the usplabs kind until libido kicks in, then hopefully some of the female kind :head: )
11-oxo
adding MassFX to keep strength gains in weeks 2-4
cycle support
Poseidon

Phew! I thought you were taking 11-OXO ALONE for a 7 week Havoc cycle. I think as long as you drop the 11-OXO, you'll be fine w/ Torem and ATD. Well planned post cycle therapy. Consider Lean Xtreme for Cortisol. Good luck!

BTW, how were your gains after 7 weeks on Havoc?

 

[rxp1997]

the oxo was just part of my havoc pct, the intended use was to control cortisol. I don't what the dosing/serving is for 3-AD as I yet have to see a label, but I dug a little deeper (which I probably shuld've in the first place) and got this at the ergopharm website

"It is important to mention that being a precursor to the active androgen 11-oxotestosterone, exceeding the recommend dose and duration of use may result in increased risk of androgenic side effects and HPTA suppression. This suppression while minimal at the recommended dosage, can temporarily effect fertility and sex hormone production at higher dosages"

Now, my interest DURING pct was to kickstart HPTA, regardless of how suppressed it was, and with that goal in mind it seems counterproductive to take something that is suppressive (minimally or not). There are other ways to control cortisol that are not suppresive, so I will opt for those (actually bought LX last night).

this is not to say 11-oxo is a bad product, I am saving the bottle for my next cycle, for me it was just the wrong product for pct.

 

[thewilman]

:goodpost:

 

[dhuge67]

cortisol control is the key word

unless he chimes in and say 11-oxo is the only thing in his post cycle therapy arsenal

anyways PCT for havoc requires much more than just 11-oxo be it low or high dose

Can you take 11-OXO WITH Havoc (or Epistane, Epidrol, etc) and not just for/during PCT?

 

[Patrick Arnold]

i was concerned about taking something that requires post cycle therapy as part of my post cycle therapy. the product marketing touts it as cortisol controller and makes no mention of requiring post cycle therapy. The funny yet sad part is i emailed customer service about dosage and in my email told them I was using it for controlling cortisol during my post cycle therapy, and Jared at customer support raised no red flags...
.

i am gonna slap him

where the f*ck is he

 

[rxp1997]

PA, didn't want to get anyone in trouble, by the same token I wanted to add credibility to my statement of contacting you guys so I used his name.

 

[xjsynx]

PA, didn't want to get anyone in trouble, by the same token I wanted to add credibility to my statement of contacting you guys so I used his name.

Hey, it is not your fault. That is what you get when you hire a sangwhich artist :toofunny:

 

[Patrick Arnold]

PA, didn't want to get anyone in trouble, by the same token I wanted to add credibility to my statement of contacting you guys so I used his name.

i am gonna rip his f*cking throat out

 

[john123131]

umm..wow

 

[thewilman]

i am gonna rip his f*cking throat out

I'm finally getting your sense of humor! :toofunny:

 

[FitnFirm]

Somebody is gonna get an ass whooping ?? I want VIDEO FEED !!!!!!!

 

[FitnFirm]

i am gonna rip his f*cking throat out

Sounds Kinky Pat :woohoo:

 

[rxp1997]

i am gonna rip his f*cking throat out

don't know why, but visions of Patrick Swayze in "Roadhouse" crossed my mind, with that trachea-ripping move of his...

Or maybe it's like that Robot Chicken star wars bit, where they all play along to make Vader believe he has mental choking powers, because the option would be to get sliced and diced with his lightsaber.

 

[neoborn]

i am gonna rip his f*cking throat out

1. Reduce your test

2. Increase your est

3. Smoke a dube / eat a hash brownie.

4. Maybe be kind to employee's of your company and show them compassion or treat them how you would want to be treated.

No one wants to be screamed at or physically threatened ( well not for free or from anyone not called Trixie the dominatrix )

 

[sandman82]

i am gonna slap him

where the f*ck is he[/QUOTE

First of all I dont ever remember sending an email to anyone saying to use 11oxo for a pct any pct recommendations would have been 6oxo or 6oxo extreme.I get hundreds of emails a day and I try to respond back to them quickly I do sometimes get a brain fart.I am personally doing a 11oxo Havoc stack and it is working very well I must say.

Second Pa bring it on anytime you know where my desk is at.:welcome:

 

[xjsynx]

i am gonna slap him

where the f*ck is he

Second Pa bring it on anytime you know where my desk is at.:welcome:

:welcome:

 

[sandman82]

:welcome:

Thank you:thumbsup:

 

[rxp1997]

i am gonna slap him

where the f*ck is he[/QUOTE

First of all I dont ever remember sending an email to anyone saying to use 11oxo for a post cycle therapy any post cycle therapy recommendations would have been 6oxo or 6oxo extreme.I get hundreds of emails a day and I try to respond back to them quickly I do sometimes get a brain fart.I am personally doing a 11oxo Havoc stack and it is working very well I must say.

Second Pa bring it on anytime you know where my desk is at.:welcome:

This is what my email said, to quote:
==============================================
From:
Sent: Monday, June 25, 2007 11:29 AM
To: '[email protected]'
Subject: 11-OXO question

About to start my pct, will be using 11-oxo for cortisol control. Is there an ideal dosing time, or is breakfast ok? Is 3caps a day good, should I spread them during the day or take in one sitting? I hope 3/day is good enough, twice a day would make this prohibitively too expensive for a 4-week pct.

Thanks for the info
==============================================

to which the response was to minimally dose 3.

Brain farts are ok, they happen.... I'ts all the reading I do in AM that made me wonder after a couple of days as 11-oxo questions starting coming out. Caught early enough, no harm, no foul, will actually do a similar stack to yours in a couple of months. Are you dosing 3 or 6/day, and how much havoc?

 

[xjsynx]

... will actually do a similar stack to yours in a couple of months. Are you dosing 3 or 6/day, and how much havoc?

Who are you talking too?

 

[rxp1997]

Sorry, it was meant for sandman, he mentioned he's currently on an 11-oxo Havoc stack...

 

[sandman82]

Sorry, it was meant for sandman, he mentioned he's currently on an 11-oxo Havoc stack...

I am doing my first bb show in Oct 2007 and my strength&gains have increased and my body fat% has went down 16% since may 17 2007.I am taking 12 11oxo ( 4 per meal) per day and 6 havoc per day and I am on a really clean diet.About 2 years ago I was about 310lbs and I started taking Amp, eating right,and working out and now I am at 220lbs and my journey to be in shape has just begun.

 

[brywal312]

all this is cool and all but back to the original question, IS 11-oxo and 3-ad the same thing besides their absorption agents? Basically, would it make any sense to stack 11oxo and 3-ad?

 

[EasyEJL]

And does Jared still have a job?

 

[brywal312]

And does Jared still have a job?

or a throat?

 

[sandman82]

I still have my job and throat.I found the email I sent to you Rxp and You asked me if you took 11 oxo 3 per day if that would be good and I said yes to cortisol control not for pct and that you should spread out the dosage because the half lie is short.So i guess I should have explained more.I take pride in myself and in ergopharm to give quality and accurate answers sorry for the confusion.

 

[macedaddy]

i am gonna slap him

where the f*ck is he

First of all I dont ever remember sending an email to anyone saying to use 11oxo for a post cycle therapy any post cycle therapy recommendations would have been 6oxo or 6oxo extreme.I get hundreds of emails a day and I try to respond back to them quickly I do sometimes get a brain fart.I am personally doing a 11oxo Havoc stack and it is working very well I must say.

Second Pa bring it on anytime you know where my desk is t.:welcome:

Hey Jared! you are a stand-up guy! Give PAt an extra punch, uhhhh........hug from me! :thumbsup: :toofunny: