IGF DES 1,3 questions

[2res4]

I have spent some time trying to research the DES version of igf. I have used lr3 multiple times but can't seem to find any info on DES. I tried to search here. I do know it's a variation with an altered amino profile that is produced naturally at certain times. What I can't find is an average dose. I can't find info on reconstitution. A site that sells it claims it's stable in .06% AA for 3 weeks. I thought AA was only for lr3 because of the lr3. Does anyone have any experience with DES, and does anyone know the recomendation for reconstitution and dosage? I typically use 40mcg with lr3. I have read all the info on it's profile so not really looking for that type of info. Thanks for any help.

 

[2res4]

Anyone?

 

[WetWorks]

DES and lr3 should be treated the same way as far as dose and storage.

 

[2res4]

DES and lr3 should be treated the same way as far as dose and storage.

Thanks for the help. Seems like it's hard to dig up anything on DES. Maybe fairly new? Not really sure but doesn't seem to be to popular. I have been searching for anything on it and continue to find the same information. I'm going to treat similar to lr3 once I get around to using it. Thanks again.

 

[2res4]

And if anyone else has any input feel free to chime in. It can't hurt to gather as much input as possible.

 

[WetWorks]

Thanks for the help. Seems like it's hard to dig up anything on DES. Maybe fairly new? Not really sure but doesn't seem to be to popular. I have been searching for anything on it and continue to find the same information. I'm going to treat similar to lr3 once I get around to using it. Thanks again.

the cost has only recently come down enough for us mer mortals to afford DES. from my research Lr3 and DES are similar as far as strength goes.

 

[2res4]

Lol. Trust me, if I didn't get deals on all this stuff I wouldn't be using it either. Luckily for me I got good amounts of all kinds of peps and aas at the same time. I'm not really expecting anything more from DES than I do with igf but I figured it was worth trying and changing things up.

 

[WetWorks]

let me know how it goes

 

[SeanyK]

DES and lr3 should be treated the same way as far as dose and storage.

said it right there...

treat dosing the same
reconstitute the same
preload/dilute injection with BW (stick to a ratio of 1:5; AAsolution:BW to minimize discomfort and or tissue necrosis

 

[2res4]

said it right there...

treat dosing the same
reconstitute the same
preload/dilute injection with BW (stick to a ratio of 1:5; AAsolution:BW to minimize discomfort and or tissue necrosis

Sounds good. It will probably be a few weeks before I try it because I'm finishing my previous weeks of lr3 use. I plan to take a few weeks off then start the DES. I ended up using lr3 2 weeks more than originally planned,6weeks. I'm not sold on it being any better than lr3 but I want to try it and see what it can do. I will try to post my experience with it.

 

[WetWorks]

Sounds good. It will probably be a few weeks before I try it because I'm finishing my previous weeks of lr3 use. I plan to take a few weeks off then start the DES. I ended up using lr3 2 weeks more than originally planned,6weeks. I'm not sold on it being any better than lr3 but I want to try it and see what it can do. I will try to post my experience with it.

you shouldn't run any IGF cycles more than 50 days on. 30 days on and 30 days off should work great.

 

[LiveNDie]

Solubility: It is recommended to reconstitute the lyophilized IGF-I Des(1-3) in 100mM Acetic acid not less than 100μg/ml, which can then be further diluted to other aqueous solutions.

Stability: Lyophilized IGF-I des(1-3) although stable at room temperature for 3 weeks, should be stored desiccated below -18°C. Upon reconstitution IGF1 des-1-3 should be stored at 4°C between 2-7 days and for future use below -18°C.
For long term storage it is recommended to add a carrier protein (0.1% HSA or BSA).
Please prevent freeze-thaw cycles.

Pulled from http://www.prospecbio.com/IGF-I_des1-3_Human_2_20

 

[2res4]

Here's some info I found on DES IGF. Think this is all over the net but posted in case anyone is interested.

DES (1-3) IGF-1 (NOT THE SAME AS IGF-1)
Most athletes have heard of IGF-1 (insulin like growth factor-1) and the amazing anabolic effects it has been reported to have upon Protein based tissue such as muscle. Des (1-3) IGF-1 is over 10 times (1000%) more anabolic than IGF-1. Now that is amazing!!
IGF-1 is actually produced from both insulin and growth hormone in the Liver and other tissues. IGF-1 is made up of 70 amino acids in a chain. Well, when a clever chemist removes the last 3 amino acids in the IGF-1 chain (the N-terminal tri-peptide) it becomes Des (1-3) IGF-1 and 1000% plus more anabolic. Why? IGF-1 circulates through our blood stream and tissue 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. Unfortunately, most of the IGF-1 is inactive because it is bound by another Protein called (get this) IGF-1 Binding Protein-3, or IGF-1-BP-3 for short. Since bound hormones can not fit into and trigger a receptor-site, the majority of circulating and muscle IGF-1 can not trigger an anabolic stimulus. Like tons of cellulite in a o movie (who watches those?) there is little good stuff happening. However, when IGF-1 is altered and becomes Des (1-3) IGF-1 the binding Protein IGF-1-BP-3 can not bind to it and it is totally active. Another reason Des (1-3) IGF-1 is so potent is its unique ability to fit into lactic acid altered IGF-1 receptor sites. (YUP) When we train we burn carbohydrates as a fuel to make cellular ATP. When cells switch to this ATP pathway, the by-product is Lactic Acid. This is of course the cause of most of the burn we feel during intense or higher rep sets. Well, the lactic acid build-up is called acidosis, and it destroys the shape of some receptor-sites for period of time. Therefore some anabolic/anti-catabolic hormones have difficulty merging with their respective receptor- site and triggering a response (such as even unbound IGF-1). Not so with Des (1-3) IGF- 1, the super growth factor. It fits into the IGF-1 receptor-site even after acidosis. Des (1- 3) IGF-1 is unbound, over 10 times more potent than IGF-1, and it picks receptor-site locks. Too bad it has only a few minute active-life.
Did you know that our body's make Des (1-3) IGF-1 naturally? Most un-informed individuals claim other wise, but it is true. When an athlete trains lactic acid builds up in muscle tissue. As we know, there is always IGF-1 / GH present in the blood stream and tissues (including muscle) from prior work-outs and other metabolic factors. That lactic acid burn triggers IGF-1/GH secretion from both prior and present work-outs. Unfortunately, lactic acid destroys some of the IGF-1 present in muscles being trained. But wait, this is good too!
Lactic acid also cuts (truncates) the last 3 amino acids off the 70 amino acid chain of "some" of the surviving IGF-1 and creates Des (I-3) IGF-1. So acidosis increases GH/IGF-1 production in the Liver, "unbinds" IGF-1 locally in the muscle being trained (burned), destroys some of the IGF-1, and converts some IGF-1 into Des (I-3) IGF-1. Huh, good deal. And the synthetic form of this super anabolic stuff is beginning to show up on the black market more frequently.


The Protein binds less well to IGF-binding proteins and is generally approximately 10-fold more potent than IGF-1 at stimulating hypertrophy and proliferation of cultured cells. REFERENCES: Ballard FJ Des(1-3)IGF-I: a truncated form of insulin-like growth factor-I. International Journal of Biochemistry and Cell Biology 28(10): 1085-1087 (1996)

 

[Patrick Arnold]

Here's some info I found on DES IGF. Think this is all over the net but posted in case anyone is interested.

DES (1-3) IGF-1 (NOT THE SAME AS IGF-1)
Most athletes have heard of IGF-1 (insulin like growth factor-1) and the amazing anabolic effects it has been reported to have upon Protein based tissue such as muscle. Des (1-3) IGF-1 is over 10 times (1000%) more anabolic than IGF-1. Now that is amazing!!
IGF-1 is actually produced from both insulin and growth hormone in the Liver and other tissues. IGF-1 is made up of 70 amino acids in a chain. Well, when a clever chemist removes the last 3 amino acids in the IGF-1 chain (the N-terminal tri-peptide) it becomes Des (1-3) IGF-1 and 1000% plus more anabolic. Why? IGF-1 circulates through our blood stream and tissue 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. Unfortunately, most of the IGF-1 is inactive because it is bound by another Protein called (get this) IGF-1 Binding Protein-3, or IGF-1-BP-3 for short. Since bound hormones can not fit into and trigger a receptor-site, the majority of circulating and muscle IGF-1 can not trigger an anabolic stimulus. Like tons of cellulite in a o movie (who watches those?) there is little good stuff happening. However, when IGF-1 is altered and becomes Des (1-3) IGF-1 the binding Protein IGF-1-BP-3 can not bind to it and it is totally active. Another reason Des (1-3) IGF-1 is so potent is its unique ability to fit into lactic acid altered IGF-1 receptor sites. (YUP) When we train we burn carbohydrates as a fuel to make cellular ATP. When cells switch to this ATP pathway, the by-product is Lactic Acid. This is of course the cause of most of the burn we feel during intense or higher rep sets. Well, the lactic acid build-up is called acidosis, and it destroys the shape of some receptor-sites for period of time. Therefore some anabolic/anti-catabolic hormones have difficulty merging with their respective receptor- site and triggering a response (such as even unbound IGF-1). Not so with Des (1-3) IGF- 1, the super growth factor. It fits into the IGF-1 receptor-site even after acidosis. Des (1- 3) IGF-1 is unbound, over 10 times more potent than IGF-1, and it picks receptor-site locks. Too bad it has only a few minute active-life.
Did you know that our body's make Des (1-3) IGF-1 naturally? Most un-informed individuals claim other wise, but it is true. When an athlete trains lactic acid builds up in muscle tissue. As we know, there is always IGF-1 / GH present in the blood stream and tissues (including muscle) from prior work-outs and other metabolic factors. That lactic acid burn triggers IGF-1/GH secretion from both prior and present work-outs. Unfortunately, lactic acid destroys some of the IGF-1 present in muscles being trained. But wait, this is good too!
Lactic acid also cuts (truncates) the last 3 amino acids off the 70 amino acid chain of "some" of the surviving IGF-1 and creates Des (I-3) IGF-1. So acidosis increases GH/IGF-1 production in the Liver, "unbinds" IGF-1 locally in the muscle being trained (burned), destroys some of the IGF-1, and converts some IGF-1 into Des (I-3) IGF-1. Huh, good deal. And the synthetic form of this super anabolic stuff is beginning to show up on the black market more frequently.


The Protein binds less well to IGF-binding proteins and is generally approximately 10-fold more potent than IGF-1 at stimulating hypertrophy and proliferation of cultured cells. REFERENCES: Ballard FJ Des(1-3)IGF-I: a truncated form of insulin-like growth factor-I. International Journal of Biochemistry and Cell Biology 28(10): 1085-1087 (1996)

i suspect that the lactic acid thing is completely made up

anyway all that there really is out there on this igf-1 variant is that it is ten times as potent as igf-1 in cell cultures. we are complicated organisms however not cell cultures so who knows what the stuff will or will not do for humans. probably just like the R3

 

[2res4]

So I've been away for a while DES is definately stronger and they way to go with igf. I used 20mcg three times a day. There is a huge difference between the two. With DES, I couldn't even brush my teeth without getting a pump. Very vascular. Good stuff. I will still use lr3 until my stash is gone but then it's DES for now on. I was also able to eat high carbs and stay lean and only lost 2lbs during pct. It had to have helped

 

[kvothe]

her 2res4, i know you said high carbs, but how high and when with this? Just trying to see if timing is diff than with lr3. I see many going pre wkout with this, which I am assuming means they are not eating for at least an hr after the shot, and maybe not for an hr or so before. I personally hate working out on a stomach full of carbs, makes me sluggish, I like to eat an hour to an hour and a half before working out, just wondering if this stuff fits that schedule. thanks for the update

 

[Lightweight1]

So I've been away for a while DES is definately stronger and they way to go with igf. I used 20mcg three times a day. There is a huge difference between the two. With DES, I couldn't even brush my teeth without getting a pump. Very vascular. Good stuff. I will still use lr3 until my stash is gone but then it's DES for now on. I was also able to eat high carbs and stay lean and only lost 2lbs during pct. It had to have helped

I will be trying some soon as well. Keep me posted on results

 

[Patrick Arnold]

I will be trying some soon as well. Keep me posted on results

i can never tell with these things if the feedback is legit or if its just more of the same hype we have seen a hundred times over with things that have come and gone. time will tell. i am skeptical

 

[Lightweight1]

i can never tell with these things if the feedback is legit or if its just more of the same hype we have seen a hundred times over with things that have come and gone. time will tell. i am skeptical

Skeptical about the DES version or with IGF-1 Lr3 in general?

 

[Patrick Arnold]

Skeptical about the DES version or with IGF-1 Lr3 in general?

i am familiar enough with the lr3 to know that it never panned out to be what it was hyped up to be, however it does have its uses

i am skeptical as to whether or not the DES is an improvement.

 

[Lightweight1]

i am familiar enough with the lr3 to know that it never panned out to be what it was hyped up to be, however it does have its uses

i am skeptical as to whether or not the DES is an improvement.

I see. I use the lr3 version now and cant say at this point it does anything more then give me a good pump. I do feel that i've shed a little bf also but have not had a bf test to prove that. Im just basing it on definition in my stomach area. If i can get the DES cheap i may try it but im not expecting anything more then the aforementioned.

 

[Patrick Arnold]

I see. I use the lr3 version now and cant say at this point it does anything more then give me a good pump. I do feel that i've shed a little bf also but have not had a bf test to prove that. Im just basing it on definition in my stomach area. If i can get the DES cheap i may try it but im not expecting anything more then the aforementioned.

both of these igf-1 derivatives are similar in that they are engineered to not bind to igf-1 binding proteins. that greatly increases their potency but also decreases their half life substantially compared to regular igf-1 (these two factors counter one other in regards to systemic anabolic effects). regular igf-1 binds to serum binding proteins - the major one being igf-1 bp3 - which sequesters it and protects it from metabolic destruction. This binding protein also has the ability to release it at target tissues under the influence of specific enzymes located at these target tissues

the trick with the lr3 and des i believe is finding some way to deliver it in a depot fashion. that is, to deliver it so it stays put at its injection site and slowly releases in a time dependent fashion. That may end up resulting in anabolic effects in the surrounding muscle tissue where it was injected

 

[SouthernCharm]

the trick with the lr3 and des i believe is finding some way to deliver it in a depot fashion. that is, to deliver it so it stays put at its injection site and slowly releases in a time dependent fashion. That may end up resulting in anabolic effects in the surrounding muscle tissue where it was injected

interesting. how would you keep it at the injection site?

 

[Patrick Arnold]

interesting. how would you keep it at the injection site?

if i had all the answers i would be rich

i havent really looked into it but there has gotta be some sort of technology out there

 

[Lightweight1]

if i had all the answers i would be rich

i havent really looked into it but there has gotta be some sort of technology out there

So in you're opinion is Im injections a waste of money ?

 

[Movin_weight]

I'll be giving it a run if USPS ever delivers my da*N package. I liked LR3, and felt it helped with endurance, and nutrient uptake... altho you could get the same affect from insulin i suppose. It did seem that i could be more lax in my carb intake and not gain fat.

 

[kvothe]

most times these things are not what they are hyped to be, but if they actually help with glucose disposal, give a nice pump, and shed some fat, for the price compared to buying otc junk to do these same things, except the otc probably not work as well, it is still a good deal.

think about the cost of buying a prewkout/pump product, a gda, and a non stim fat burner, vs igf. Now think about the effectiveness between them. IGF is a better deal, although there is the possibility it may be a little more risky, maybe not though, the use of this is still pretty new, so time will tell.

 

[2res4]

I think it's better than lr3. I dont believe it's doing what it's really supposed to. The way I look at this is basically a safer insulin. I got almost immediate pumps during training. There was also increased vascularity. Now there is the opinion that this is simply expensive insulin and I can see that and I hope that's exactly how it's working.

Look around on some other forums and there are some good threads on DES. The pump and full feeling remained all night after training

I don't believe it's really causing hyperplasia but to me I noticed this to be stronger than lr3 almost immediately. I don't know about 10 x stronger but definately stronger. And if you look around it is actually cheaper. I'll just say I paid 1/3 the average price of lr3

I just think this is something to add to my arsenal. I don't think it could replace AAS but it's better than any OTC product I have ever used and I think it's good in combination with AAS. I also see igf as a great inclusion for pct. If it works to shuttle nutrients then it's very helpful.

I do agree that igf has not lived up to the hype by any means but I personally have found uses for it and will continue to use it. DES during cycle and I'll save lr3 for post cycle
I also believe igf, follistatin, myo propep, and the gh peps are all very benificial on and off cycle. I personally think these can help maintain weight, strength, endurance while off cycle. They give an extra edge with out the side effects and help aid in recovery.

Follistatin is my next experiment. I have read a lot of logs of guys getting pretty good results from this but it also cause lethargy. That's the other thing I noticed with DES, I didn't get the lethargy I did from lr3.

 

[2res4]

Patric I appreciate all your comments. I to am skeptical of igf but still like it and have found a use for it. If you compare to all the reported effects, then I think it fails horribly. DES in my opinion just provides a stronger effect than I get from lr3, so my post may be misleading but this was great news to myself because I like to use it. It wasn't meant to say this variant actually works like igf is supposed to if that makes sense

 

[disgraziato]

2res- nice write-up...keep a log going on results off the Des....

 

[gtfo]

since PA is in this thread i thought id leave this here. tell me what you guys think.



dl.dropbox. com/u/3190555/DatBTrue /Ballard%20et%20al%201996. pdf


sorry cant post links yet

 

[Patrick Arnold]

So in you're opinion is Im injections a waste of money ?

my thoughts are that people might be seeing something in regards to glycogen deposition and maybe a little water retention from regular systemic injections. Its hard to believe that much in the way of muscle anabolism is going on though, because muscle is used to high local concentrations of IGF-1 (which are generated as a response to exercise and as part of normal developmental growth). you arent getting those high local concentrations with these products i dont think because the hormone is so quickly removed from the muscle due to the high vasularity of the tissue and high water solubility of the hormone

 

[2res4]

PA what are your thoughts on the glycogen deposition? How useful? Kinda a dumb question but just curious. I may be a little misleading on this thread because I think DES is strong and really like it but not in the sense of hyperplasia and other reported uses.

 

[Movin_weight]

I also feel the hyperplasia effect is minimal,'although I saw some significant growth in my chest and calves since using lr3 and pegmgf. Either way I'm testing des by using 60-100mcg per day spaced out following carbs and pre workout. The goal is fullness and fatloss

 

[2res4]

Sounds good movin. I'm doing the same thing with igf/peg mgf. Got some growth then seemed like it went away. I'm trying again now.

 

[pressmaster]

really? Lr3 never panned out,maybe I'm overlooking things but I have only heard great things and seen great things with lr3

 

[Patrick Arnold]

PA what are your thoughts on the glycogen deposition? How useful? Kinda a dumb question but just curious. I may be a little misleading on this thread because I think DES is strong and really like it but not in the sense of hyperplasia and other reported uses.

i am not so sure about the whole muscle glycogen thing in regards to pump and size to begin with.

 

[chess315]

I have used it and know many other high level bodybuilders that have if you have a good source for it you wont be dissapointed I agree I dont see how it can do much for muscle growth but it does something thats for sure. there is no need to be shooting a 100mg a time it is still so new there isnt a good protocol for it yet. most people tend to like it pre workout. It is effective in 10-20mg does though many use 40 to 80. I dont think it prolly would make a person much bigger in itself but it would proably allow you to eat more with out getting fat. It does give you one hell of a pump and fatloss is noticble qucikly. It is cheap to did I say it is cheap lol

 

[chess315]

I agree if it is not actually doing something for muscle growth it does change the way you look while on it. I am not so sure though I ahve noticed strength gains as have most the people I have talked to so it has to do something its to new and all of us that take it change are diets and drug protcols so much it hard to tell but every one I know and I have talked to several that have used it love it. I may not be back on here to respond another popualr dosing protocol is 10-20micro grams sevral times a day. I just shoot preworkout. about 20-40 you notice your body compostion is at least appears different after a week or so. It is funny if it wasnt doing anything at all I dont see where all the strength gains come from but I agree I dont see how on paper it could be that great.

 

[Rodja]

I agree if it is not actually doing something for muscle growth it does change the way you look while on it. I am not so sure though I ahve noticed strength gains as have most the people I have talked to so it has to do something its to new and all of us that take it change are diets and drug protcols so much it hard to tell but every one I know and I have talked to several that have used it love it. I may not be back on here to respond another popualr dosing protocol is 10-20micro grams sevral times a day. I just shoot preworkout. about 20-40 you notice your body compostion is at least appears different after a week or so. It is funny if it wasnt doing anything at all I dont see where all the strength gains come from but I agree I dont see how on paper it could be that great.

What do you eat pre-WO when you shoot it?

 

[chess315]

I eat 15grams eaa and 30 grams carbs pre workout
15 grams eaa and 30 grams carbs during workout
50 grams whey and two cinnamon rolls after lol
also I ad creatine and glycerol to the shakes I love glycerol to