HGHUP / L-Dopa concern

[Jbrooks]

I had planned on purchasing a bottle of HGHup as its looks to be an exciting product

Today I cam accross this thread which brings some concern

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplements/132889-1-carboxy-gaba.html

What is AN stance on this thread and possible dangers of L-dopa raised here?

Kind regards

 

[TexasLifter89]

Interesting... I never saw that thread before. I would say without any schooling background that it is best to make the decision on what you feel is right. HGH-up is a great supplement if you do decide to use it though.

 

[rms80]

I had planned on purchasing a bottle of HGHup as its looks to be an exciting product

Today I cam accross this thread which brings some concern

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplements/132889-1-carboxy-gaba.html

What is AN stance on this thread and possible dangers of L-dopa raised here?

Kind regards

We use L-Dopa extracted from M.Pruriens- and it actually has been shown to have neuroprotective effects in several studies:

Phytother Res. 2004 Sep;18(9):706-12.

Neuroprotective effects of the antiparkinson drug Mucuna pruriens.
Manyam BV, Dhanasekaran M, Hare TA.

Department of Neurology, Health Science Center College of Medicine, Temple, TX 76508, USA. [email protected]

Mucuna pruriens possesses significantly higher antiparkinson activity compared with levodopa in the 6-hydroxydopamine (6-OHDA) lesioned rat model of Parkinson's disease. The present study evaluated the neurorestorative effect of Mucuna pruriens cotyledon powder on the nigrostriatal tract of 6-OHDA lesioned rats. Mucuna pruriens cotyledon powder significantly increased the brain mitochondrial complex-I activity but did not affect the total monoamine oxidase activity (in vitro). Unlike synthetic levodopa treatment, Mucuna pruriens cotyledon powder treatment significantly restored the endogenous levodopa, dopamine, norepinephrine and serotonin content in the substantia nigra. Nicotine adenine dinucleotide (NADH) and coenzyme Q-10, that are shown to have a therapeutic benefit in Parkinson's disease, were present in the Mucuna pruriens cotyledon powder. Earlier studies showed that Mucuna pruriens treatment controls the symptoms of Parkinson's disease. This additional finding of a neurorestorative benefit by Mucuna pruriens cotyledon powder on the degenerating dopaminergic neurons in the substantia nigra may be due to increased complex-I activity and the presence of NADH and coenzyme Q-10. Copyright (c) 2004 John Wiley & Sons, Ltd.


Phytother Res. 2007 Dec;21(12):1124-6.

Anti-Parkinson botanical Mucuna pruriens prevents levodopa induced plasmid and genomic DNA damage.
Tharakan B, Dhanasekaran M, Mize-Berge J, Manyam BV.

Department of Neurology, Scott & White Clinic, Temple, Texas, USA.

Levodopa is considered the 'gold standard' for the treatment of Parkinson's disease. However, a serious concern is dyskinesia and motor fluctuation that occurs after several years of use. In vitro experiments have shown that in the presence of divalent copper ions, levodopa may induce intense DNA damage. Mucuna pruriens cotyledon powder (MPCP) has shown anti-parkinson and neuroprotective effects in animal models of Parkinson's disease that is superior to synthetic levodopa. In the present study two different doses of MPCP protected both plasmid DNA and genomic DNA against levodopa and divalent copper-induced DNA strand scission and damage. It exhibited chelation of divalent copper ions in a dose-dependent manner. The copper chelating property may be one of the mechanisms by which MPCP exerts its protective effects on DNA. Copyright (c) 2007 John Wiley & Sons, Ltd.



Phytother Res. 2004 Feb;18(2):97-101.

Effect of antiparkinson drug HP-200 (Mucuna pruriens) on the central monoaminergic neurotransmitters.
Manyam BV, Dhanasekaran M, Hare TA.

Department of Neurology, Scott & White Clinic and Texas A & M University System Health Science Center College of Medicine, Temple, TX 76508, USA. [email protected]

HP-200, which contains Mucuna pruriens endocarp, has been shown to be effective in the treatment of Parkinson's disease. Mucuna pruriens endocarp has also been shown to be more effective compared to synthetic levodopa in an animal model of Parkinson's disease. The present study was designed to elucidate the long-term effect of Mucuna pruriens endocarp in HP-200 on monoaminergic neurotransmitters and its metabolite in various regions of the rat brain. HP-200 at a dose of 2.5, 5.0 or 10.0 g/kg/day was mixed with rat chow and fed daily ad lib to Sprague-Dawley rats (n = 6 for each group) for 52 weeks. Controls (n = 6) received no drug. Random assignment was made for doses and control. The rats were sacrificed at the end of 52 weeks and the neurotransmitters were analyzed in the cortex, hippocampus, substantia nigra and striatum. Oral administration of Mucuna pruriens endocarp in the form of HP-200 had a significant effect on dopamine content in the cortex with no significant effect on levodopa, norepinephrine or dopamine, serotonin, and their metabolites- HVA, DOPAC and 5-HIAA in the nigrostriatal tract. The failure of Mucuna pruriens endocarp to significantly affect dopamine metabolism in the striatonigral tract along with its ability to improve Parkinsonian symptoms in the 6-hydorxydopamine animal model and humans may suggest that its antiparkinson effect may be due to components other than levodopa or that it has an levodopa enhancing effect. Copyright 2004 John Wiley & Sons, Ltd. Copyright 2004 John Wiley & Sons, Ltd.



Phytother Res. 2008 Jan;22(1):6-11.

Antiparkinson drug--Mucuna pruriens shows antioxidant and metal chelating activity.
Dhanasekaran M, Tharakan B, Manyam BV.


Parkinson's disease is a neurodegenerative disorder for which no neurorestorative therapeutic treatment is currently available. Oxidative stress plays an important role in the pathophysiology of Parkinson's disease. The ancient Indian medical system, Ayurveda, traditionally uses Mucuna pruriens to treat Parkinson's disease. In our earlier studies, Mucuna pruriens has been shown to possess antiparkinson and neuroprotective effects in animal models of Parkinson's disease. The antioxidant activity of Mucuna pruriens was demonstrated by its ability to scavenge DPPH radicals, ABTS radicals and reactive oxygen species. Mucuna pruriens significantly inhibited the oxidation of lipids and deoxyribose sugar. Mucuna pruriens exhibited divalent iron chelating activity and did not show any genotoxic/mutagenic effect on the plasmid DNA. These results suggest that the neuroprotective and neurorestorative effect of Mucuna pruriens may be related to its antioxidant activity independent of the symptomatic effect. In addition, the drug appears to be therapeutically safe in the treatment of patients with Parkinson's disease. Copyright (c) 2007 John Wiley & Sons, Ltd.

PMID: 18064727 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

 

[Mr.50]

But aren't all those studies for Mucuna (or a concentrate) not for an extrace of L-Dopa from Mucuna?

Mr.50

 

[rms80]

But aren't all those studies for Mucuna (or a concentrate) not for an extrace of L-Dopa from Mucuna?

Mr.50

I have never seen non-extracted mucuna in any of the studies- you would have to take too much ground raw substance to get the desired effect- imagine having to eat 50 lbs. of broccoli to get I3-C..........

 

[Mr.50]

I have never seen non-extracted mucuna in any of the studies- you would have to take too much ground raw substance to get the desired effect- imagine having to eat 50 lbs. of broccoli to get I3-C..........

Oh sure......I get the point. You are absolutely right....I just wonder if there is any way to really compare the extract from the mucuna (if the L-Dopa is the main constituent of the extract) to whole mucuna results (I think they eat it in some societies).

Mr.50

 

[DAdams91982]

So... how is L-Dopa from MP different from L-Dopa? No one has answered this question yet, and I still retain playing with L-Dopa is dangerous not in the interim, but in the long term. USP is touting 3 years of safety when that is nothing in the game of life.

 

[EasyEJL]

So... how is L-Dopa from MP different from L-Dopa? No one has answered this question yet

Not sure how, but those studies above all show that it is different, they state that pretty clearly.

Mucuna pruriens possesses significantly higher antiparkinson activity compared with levodopa

The copper chelating property may be one of the mechanisms by which MPCP exerts its protective effects on DNA

so maybe its copper chelation? but from plant source it is different than synthetic, whether its because of an intrinsic difference, or because of some of what is left from the mucuna in the non-l-dopa portion.

 

[Vegking]

Some one from AP needs to address the consumers concerns a lot more than has been done so far.

 

[EasyEJL]

Some one from AP needs to address the consumers concerns a lot more than has been done so far.

What concerns are those? There are studies that show pharmaceutical synthetic 100% L-Dopa can have some negative effects, and there are studies on extract L-Dopa from Mucuna Pruriens that show the opposite effect, a neural protective effect. Note that nobody uses a 100% L-Dopa extract from Mucuna, its anywhere from a 25%-75% extract. So obviously there is something in the non-extract part that has a protective effect. Not knowing precisely what that is, or its mechanism of action doesn't particularly matter as we know it does work that way.

A high percentage of pharmaceutical products after millions in research and testing still have unknown mechanisms of action, but have demonstrable effect.

 

[DAdams91982]

What concerns are those? There are studies that show pharmaceutical synthetic 100% L-Dopa can have some negative effects, and there are studies on extract L-Dopa from Mucuna Pruriens that show the opposite effect, a neural protective effect. Note that nobody uses a 100% L-Dopa extract from Mucuna, its anywhere from a 25%-75% extract. So obviously there is something in the non-extract part that has a protective effect. Not knowing precisely what that is, or its mechanism of action doesn't particularly matter as we know it does work that way.

A high percentage of pharmaceutical products after millions in research and testing still have unknown mechanisms of action, but have demonstrable effect.

no there is not a 100% extract, but there is a 99% out there. Not to mention most MP products test out at approx 5% even if labeled higher. Not many people test their own raw's for yield, they take india's word for it.

 

[DAdams91982]

Also, i went looking for the L-Dopa molecule, and a MP L-Dopa molecule to compare. But I have not found any different molecule structure than the regular L-Dopa, can you point me in a direction that shows different structures?

 

[EasyEJL]

Also, i went looking for the L-Dopa molecule, and a MP L-Dopa molecule to compare. But I have not found any different molecule structure than the regular L-Dopa, can you point me in a direction that shows different structures?

Its not that the L-dopa portion itself is different, but whats in the rest of MP. If you take 500mg of synthetic L-Dopa its 500mg. If you take 500mg of L-Dopa from a 25% MP extract its 2g total of materials, so 1500mg worth of other chemical components within the MP. And studies as well as a long history of its safe use in India have shown that there is a difference in its L-Dopa's side effects on neurons with the rest of the components that are in MP included. Can I say exactly what component it is that makes the difference? No (although the one study seems to point towards it being copper chelation related), but it does work that way as multiple studies have shown.

Can doctors say exactly why a copper IUD with no hormones prevents pregnancy in women? no, but it does keep a woman from getting pregnant. It was discovered by accident as the original IUDs with similar hormones to what is in the pill had a copper core as its non toxic and non reactive in that environment, and they noticed that even if a woman went well past effective time of hormones that the women still weren't getting pregnant, so they tested bare copper IUDs and it worked to prevent pregnancies. They still have no idea on MOA for it, but do know it works.

 

[DAdams91982]

Its not that the L-dopa portion itself is different, but whats in the rest of MP. If you take 500mg of synthetic L-Dopa its 500mg. If you take 500mg of L-Dopa from a 25% MP extract its 2g total of materials, so 1500mg worth of other chemical components within the MP. And studies as well as a long history of its safe use in India have shown that there is a difference in its L-Dopa's side effects on neurons with the rest of the components that are in MP included. Can I say exactly what component it is that makes the difference? No (although the one study seems to point towards it being copper chelation related), but it does work that way as multiple studies have shown.

Can doctors say exactly why a copper IUD with no hormones prevents pregnancy in women? no, but it does keep a woman from getting pregnant. It was discovered by accident as the original IUDs with similar hormones to what is in the pill had a copper core as its non toxic and non reactive in that environment, and they noticed that even if a woman went well past effective time of hormones that the women still weren't getting pregnant, so they tested bare copper IUDs and it worked to prevent pregnancies. They still have no idea on MOA for it, but do know it works.

You are mistaken... we know how IUDs work.

the presence of the copper around the IUD frame acts as a natural spermicide. Additionally, IUDs cause the uterus to produce white blood cells (leukocytes), and prostaglandins within the uterus. These make the uterine environment hostile to sperm and eggs, greatly reducing potential pregnancy.

So my question still stands, how is L-Dopa not L-Dopa... if there is a chelation to it, that would appear on the MP L-Dopa molecule that is seemingly missing from the world. I personally think MP is dangerous, but that is not my argument here... it's like saying caffiene from pepsi is different from caffeine from coke... pepsi is more dangerous.

 

[EasyEJL]

You are mistaken... we know how IUDs work.

No, you are mistaken. The MOA of copper touching uterine walls causing eggs to not attach is unknown.

So my question still stands, how is L-Dopa not L-Dopa... if there is a chelation to it, that would appear on the MP L-Dopa molecule that is seemingly missing from the world. I personally think MP is dangerous, but that is not my argument here... it's like saying caffiene from pepsi is different from caffeine from coke... pepsi is more dangerous.

At this point I think you are purposefully missing the point. There is no difference in the molecule of the L-Dopa itself, however in dosing 500mg of L-Dopa from synthetic you are doing 500mg of L-Dopa molecules only. In dosing 500mg of L-Dopa from 25% MP extract you are dosing 500mg of L-Dopa molecules plus 1500mg of other constituents of MP. There is something in that 1500mg that provides neuroprotective effects as actual medical studies have shown, making the end result of taking 500mg of L-Dopa from MP quite different than 500mg from synthetic.

Your coke vs pepsi analogy isn't very accurate as their source of caffeine is the same. It could be somewhat similar to saying geranamine/1,3-dimethylamylamine as taken from synthetic is different than the extract from geranium oil. I've experimented with both in bulk and in products, and there is a qualitative difference to the two. Is there any difference in the 60mg worth of 1,3-dimethylamylamine in a dose of either? No, but there apparently are other ingredients in the geranium oil extract that make 1,3-dimethylamylamine from the oil more enjoyable to me than the synthetic.

 

[DAdams91982]

No, you are mistaken. The MOA of copper touching uterine walls causing eggs to not attach is unknown.

Do some research:
http://www.talkingscience.org/2009/03/how-do-iuds-work/
http://www.wisegeek.com/how-do-iuds-work.htm
http://www.babycenter.com/0_intrauterine-device-iud_3564.bc#articlesection2

Effects of the copper intrauterine device on the expression of cyclooxygenase-1 and -2 in the endometrium.

Xin ZM, Cao LM, Xie QZ, Sun Y, Su YC, Guo YH.

Reproductive Medical Center, The First Affiliated Hospital, ZhengZhou University, ZhengZhou, China.

OBJECTIVE: To examine the expression levels of cyclooxygenase (COX)-1 and COX-2 in the endometrium before and after insertion of the copper intrauterine device (Cu-IUD). METHODS: Ten patients were investigated. Two endometrial biopsies were taken from the uterus of each patient. The first biopsy was taken prior to insertion of the Cu-IUD, and the second was taken 1 month after insertion on the same day of the menstrual cycle and from the same location. The levels of COX-1 and COX-2 mRNA and protein in the endometrium were determined using reverse transcriptase polymerase chain reaction (RT-PCR) and Western blotting. RESULTS: Before insertion, expression of COX-2 mRNA and proteins was 0.399+/-0.014 and 14.75+/-1.31, respectively. Post insertion, expression of COX-2 mRNA and proteins was 0.563+/-0.041 and 18.61+/-1.93, respectively. A significant increase (P<0.05) of COX between pre and post insertion of the Cu-IUD was only seen with COX-2. There was no significant change in the level of COX-1 mRNA or proteins before and after insertion of the Cu-IUD. CONCLUSION: COX-2 is the primary isoenzyme stimulating overproduction of prostaglandins in the endometrium after the insertion of Cu-IUDs.

At this point I think you are purposefully missing the point. There is no difference in the molecule of the L-Dopa itself, however in dosing 500mg of L-Dopa from synthetic you are doing 500mg of L-Dopa molecules only. In dosing 500mg of L-Dopa from 25% MP extract you are dosing 500mg of L-Dopa molecules plus 1500mg of other constituents of MP. There is something in that 1500mg that provides neuroprotective effects as actual medical studies have shown, making the end result of taking 500mg of L-Dopa from MP quite different than 500mg from synthetic.

Your coke vs pepsi analogy isn't very accurate as their source of caffeine is the same. It could be somewhat similar to saying geranamine/1,3-dimethylamylamine as taken from synthetic is different than the extract from geranium oil. I've experimented with both in bulk and in products, and there is a qualitative difference to the two. Is there any difference in the 60mg worth of 1,3-dimethylamylamine in a dose of either? No, but there apparently are other ingredients in the geranium oil extract that make 1,3-dimethylamylamine from the oil more enjoyable to me than the synthetic.

I will leave this portion to you. L-Dopa is long proved dopamine modulation, and playing with neurotransmitters is not a good idea. There are more dangers than destruction of neurons... remember you are messing with the dopergenic system. But I will not change you mind, nor do I even care too, you are defending your product.

as for the 1,3... they feel the same exact to me.

 

[EasyEJL]

I will leave this portion to you. L-Dopa is long proved dopamine modulation, and playing with neurotransmitters is not a good idea. There are more dangers than destruction of neurons... remember you are messing with the dopergenic system. But I will not change you mind, nor do I even care too, you are defending your product.

as for the 1,3... they feel the same exact to me.

When we first got a copper IUD (around 96?) there still wasn't a consensus or studies on how it worked. They were very specific about that at the doctors office, I thought it was funny. But regardless there are other medications that their MOA isn't entirely understood, just as the MOA of MP's neuroprotective benefits in the presence of L-Dopa isn't understood, but is demonstrable.

I'll agree that neurotransmitters can be touchy, but at the same time there are studies showing the neuroprotective effects of MP. And its not just me defending my product, its something that there is scientific evidence of, and its a product/ingredient that i've been using daily for a long time.

And I can totally understand it being a compound/substance that you don't feel comfortable with using. Plenty of us have our own individual preferences and likes/dislikes/trusts/distrusts.

 

[ctAL]

interesting...

its also in IGF 2 also correct.

 

[EasyEJL]

interesting...

its also in IGF 2 also correct.

Yes, as well as in dozens of other products by many different manufacturers.

 

[sniper80]

Pharmaceutical Levodopa is made from the same source these companies use to get their l-dopa. Driven uses a 95% extract ldopa in activate. how close is that to being the same as levodopa? Too much dopamine in the brain is not good. Google excess dopamine and read the side effects. I terminated my activate log that I was goin to provide pre and post bloodwork on because driven wouldnt answer these questions

 

[OrganicShadow]

^Id like to see that bloodwork. If you do it, please provide a link.