The Androsterone Thread

[LG Sciences]

This thread is for anyone that has questions on how Androsterone works or any androsterone based supplements for that matter. I will explain how it is converted and why I think Androsterone based prohormones are the best TRUE prohormones ever created.

We are seeing major feedback from the Androsterone in Methyl Masterdrol V2. So let the questions begin...

 

[mattikus]

Why do you think they are the best prohormones ever created. That's a bold statement.

 

[slow-mun]

Theoretically, how efficiently would an androsterone percursor to 4-OHT work?

 

[3clipseGT]

Theoretically, how efficiently would an androsterone percursor to 4-OHT work?

Very nice question here. Im interested as well.

 

[LG Sciences]

I think because they take full advantage of the body's enzyme system. Now don't confuse prohormones with prosteroids...two different catagories.

4-OH Androsterone should in theory be better than 4-OH Dione for conversion to 4-OHT. I think 4-OHT is a really good androgen. Low sides, pretty androgenic. Conversion to 4-OHT would be better with a 4-OH Androsterone vs. 4-OH Androstendione via the same enzyme utilization as all of the androsterones.

 

[slow-mun]

Why do you think they are the best prohormones ever created. That's a bold statement.

Somehow, I believe a large part of this is by their ability to be DSHEA compliant.

 

[Grant]

This is the same thing as 11-oxo and 3-ad right, to busy to search at the moment

 

[LG Sciences]

No, not at all the same thing as 11-OXO, that is 11-Keto Androstenedione. Not sure what 3-AD is going to be...did they release any info on it? If they copy us and bring out Androsterone, it should be a good product, much like Methyl Masterdrol V2...

11-Keto Androstenedione is a pretty good product, the diones definately have better conversion than the diols. I know that this is against what conventional wisdom says, but I think the data says otherwise. Look ar the conversion of oral 1,4 andro it is show to be excreted at a high rate in the urine. The diols only show a high conversion when titrated in the blood which isn't at all a simulation of the body...

 

[slow-mun]

I think because they take full advantage of the body's enzyme system. Now don't confuse prohormones with prosteroids...two different catagories.

4-OH Androsterone should in theory be better than 4-OH Dione for conversion to 4-OHT. I think 4-OHT is a really good androgen. Low sides, pretty androgenic. Conversion to 4-OHT would be better with a 4-OH Androsterone vs. 4-OH Androstendione via the same enzyme utilization as all of the androsterones.

I think I read where you mentioned that this was a possible product for LG Science. Are there still plans for a product like this? Also, don't you think that something like this would be a better fit in a product like Methyl 1-D, than ATD?

 

[mattikus]

Somehow, I believe a large part of this is by their ability to be DSHEA compliant.

That's kinda what I was thinkin.

 

[Grant]

No, not at all the same thing as 11-OXO, that is 11-Keto Androstenedione. Not sure what 3-AD is going to be...did they release any info on it? If they copy us and bring out Androsterone, it should be a good product, much like Methyl Masterdrol V2...

11-Keto Androstenedione is a pretty good product, the diones definately have better conversion than the diols. I know that this is against what conventional wisdom says, but I think the data says otherwise. Look ar the conversion of oral 1,4 andro it is show to be excreted at a high rate in the urine. The diols only show a high conversion when titrated in the blood which isn't at all a simulation of the body...

11-OXO and 3-AD have (or "had" unless they are changing 3-AD) the same actives.

 

[LG Sciences]

Yeah, it would be a much better fit than ATD but the path of least resisitance with an AI was ATD.

We thought about bringing out 4-OH Androsterone (or technically 4-OH-4-Androsterone) as a PH, but only so much time in the day.

 

[LG Sciences]

11-OXO and 3-AD have (or "had" unless they are changing 3-AD) the same actives.

I think they changed actives... Either way, 11-OXO is not an androsterone based product.

 

[slow-mun]

11-OXO and 3-AD have (or "had" unless they are changing 3-AD) the same actives.

AX is supposed to release adrenosterone under a different monicker and release 3-AD as something entirely new. Matt Cahill(DS) designed 3-AD's newest formula, whatever it turns out to be.

 

[Grant]

AX is supposed to release adrenosterone under a different monicker and release 3-AD as something entirely new. Matt Cahill(DS) designed 3-AD's newest formula, whatever it turns out to be.

Thanks for the heads up, I don't have nearly as much time to keep up with the new stuff as I used to

 

[slow-mun]

Yeah, it would be a much better fit than ATD but the path of least resisitance with an AI was ATD.

We thought about bringing out 4-OH Androsterone (or technically 4-OH-4-Androsterone) as a PH, but only so much time in the day.

Hopefully it will see the light of day. Do you feel that transdermals would help or hinder the two step conversion process of androstanes into their parent compounds?

 

[LG Sciences]

You know, I used to know that question, but it was so long ago that I can't remember. I believe it was good to use the products dermally since the skin has a pretty high expression of 17bHSD (this is from memory, so I could be wrong). Would be cool to see someone try Androsterone/EpiAndrosterone transdermally.

An FYI EpiAndrosterone and Androsterone are basically the same compound, one is a 3a and one is a 3b. We think the 3b is much better as a muscle builder, but it is good to use a little of both (which happens anyway when you get the stuff, since most PH's are a mix of a/b isomers). Both are prohormones to Stanolone and take advantage of the bodies 2 step enzyme system so should be much more bioavialable than diones or diols...

 

[Minnesota]

so are we aren't talking about androxtreme either? since you said 11-oxo is something else.

 

[slow-mun]

You know, I used to know that question, but it was so long ago that I can't remember. I believe it was good to use the products dermally since the skin has a pretty high expression of 17bHSD (this is from memory, so I could be wrong). Would be cool to see someone try Androsterone/EpiAndrosterone transdermally.

An FYI EpiAndrosterone and Androsterone are basically the same compound, one is a 3a and one is a 3b. We think the 3b is much better as a muscle builder, but it is good to use a little of both (which happens anyway when you get the stuff, since most PH's are a mix of a/b isomers). Both are prohormones to Stanolone and take advantage of the bodies 2 step enzyme system so should be much more bioavialable than diones or diols...

You send me 10 grams of the raws and I'll make a transdermal:wave:. Seriously though, I think that could be a way to make these products more cost efficient to use and produce.

 

[3clipseGT]

You send me 10 grams of the raws and I'll make a transdermal:wave:. Seriously though, I think that could be a way to make these products more cost efficient to use and produce.

I was thinking the same thing as far as dermals go!

 

[JaredGalloway]

thank you for taking the time to clear this up:thumbsup:

i was wondering since the write-up for Liquid masterdrol(Epihydroxyetioallocholan-17-One Ethyl Ester) is considered the same as Formadrol Extreme(3a-Hydroxyetioallocholan-17-One...Would FOrmadrol still be a good PCT since there both androsterone(same compound?)...i mean i know LM is 300mg's per serving of it and FM is only 20mg's but would it be wise to take a lower dosed product (with the same ingridient) as PCT...

 

[poopypants]

sub so I can read when back from gym...

 

[JaredGalloway]

hmmmm...i guess im gonna get the same answer as i did n the thread i started 2 days ago...nothing...oh well ill go buy some and hope my balls dont fall off

 

[JDF]

hmmmm...i guess im gonna get the same answer as i did n the thread i started 2 days ago...nothing...oh well ill go buy some and hope my balls dont fall off

Your balls are only worth waiting 37 minutes for an answer?

 

[UNCnate]

I think they changed actives... Either way, 11-OXO is not an androsterone based product.

Yeah we changed it.

 

[tilerbreaker]

I've got a few questions: I want to make sure I've got this right. Is MMV2 is (predominantly) 3b-androsterone (epiandrosterone) or androsterone (which is 3a-hydroxy-5a-androstan-17-one)? Both would be precursors to DHT (after 2 conversions), but do you know if one is more efficient than the other (3a vs 3b)?

How does this compare to older products (that are no longer available) like M5AA and MDHT? (I've been trying to search out some comparisons but haven't seen anything definitive).

I was also wondering how you felt about using MMV2 just on workout days, an hour or so before working out, to hopefully get that DHT boost (strength, focus, etc.)?

Thanks LG!

 

[3clipseGT]

I've got a few questions: I want to make sure I've got this right. Is MMV2 is (predominantly) 3b-androsterone (epiandrosterone) or androsterone (which is 3a-hydroxy-5a-androstan-17-one)? Both would be precursors to DHT (after 2 conversions), but do you know if one is more efficient than the other (3a vs 3b)?

How does this compare to older products (that are no longer available) like M5AA and MDHT? (I've been trying to search out some comparisons but haven't seen anything definitive).

I was also wondering how you felt about using MMV2 just on workout days, an hour or so before working out, to hopefully get that DHT boost (strength, focus, etc.)?

Thanks LG!

Im not as smart as E is on all the scientific stuff so ill let him answer that. As far as comparison to older products i used MDHT and this IMO blows that out of the water.

 

[snagency]

Your balls are only worth waiting 37 minutes for an answer?

LMAO! :rofl:

 

[stl123]

This might be a dumb question, but I am not up to speed on the science and chemestry of how these compounds are written.

Is the compound in MMv2 (3-beta-hydroxyetioallocholan-17-one) and the compound in AMS 1-Androsterone (1-Androstene-3b-ol, 17-one) the same compound? Or are they different?

If so, I do see that MMv2 is cheaper and has more caps.

 

[LG Sciences]

Totally different compounds 1-Androsterone and Androsterone are completely different. The 1- or 4- and other nomenclature defines the structure of the molecule.

1-Androsterone converts to 1-Test ultimately
Androsterone converts to Stanolone (DHT)
4-Androsterone converts to Testosterone
19Nor Androsterone (4-ene) converts to Nandralone (Deca) in the body
1,4 Androsterone (not yet released) converts to Equipoise in the body
4-OH Androsterone converts to HydroxyTest in the body

Androsterone (3a isomer) is better for anti-estrogen effects than epi-androsterone (3b isomer) but I believe the 3b to be much better for muscle building effects due to the increased amount of free 3bHSD in the blood and other tissues. There is also a lot of 3aHSD in the muscle which could activate, but it seems that it is semi-uni directional.

 

[JaredGalloway]

Your balls are only worth waiting 37 minutes for an answer?

...i was only joking...but still none of the reps have answered my question...

 

[Nabisco]

thank you for taking the time to clear this up:thumbsup:

i was wondering since the write-up for Liquid masterdrol(Epihydroxyetioallocholan-17-One Ethyl Ester) is considered the same as Formadrol Extreme(3a-Hydroxyetioallocholan-17-One...Would FOrmadrol still be a good PCT since there both androsterone(same compound?)...i mean i know LM is 300mg's per serving of it and FM is only 20mg's but would it be wise to take a lower dosed product (with the same ingridient) as PCT...

Liquid Masterdrol is pretty much the same product as MMv2 and I successfully used Formadrol as PCT for my very short cycle of MMv2. So I don't see an issue with that. As far as both being the same compound, I'm pretty sure that they aren't although the chemical nomenclatures are similar. But you'll have to wait for the boss man "LegalGear" to answer that question fully.

 

[JaredGalloway]

look for urself...heres the website address to my findings...

Metabolomics Toolbox: Androsterone

based on whats said here there both the SAME chemical just different nomenclature

and im not saying formadrol extreme is a bad choice for PCT ive already heard numerous people say how good it was...

 

[LG Sciences]

They are not the same. One is the 3a and one is the 3b isomer. The 3a isomer was shown to have anti-aromatase properties where the 3b isomer did not. I can't for the life of me find the paper though, it is what I used when formulating the two.

There are two entries epi-androsterone and androsterone. One is 3 alpha and one is 3 beta. They often are used and confused interchangably but they are not the same. Epiandrosterone is 3-beta and Androsterone is 3 alpha. They are different in the body because different enzymes act on them. For example 3aHSD does not seem to have the 4-5 isomerase activity that 3bHSD does.

 

[JaredGalloway]

i thought u said
"An FYI EpiAndrosterone and Androsterone are basically the same compound, one is a 3a and one is a 3b."

well since formadrol is closely related to LM couldnt i just do an 8-12 week cycle since no PCT is needed of formadrol at like 7 tabs a day and it would be great for lean mass and hardness...

 

[JaredGalloway]

and i had a question of the dosing of mmv2...wouldnt i have to take 6 tabs a day to get the same effects as LM...do u think a 45 day cycle at 7 tabs a day is good...or not....cuase thats what i was gonna do...

 

[tilerbreaker]

Thanks for clarifying the alpha vs beta issue. I'm still wondering about using MMv2 as a supplement only on workout days (I guess this would be akin to the pulsing protocol) versus using it everyday in a straight cycle. M5AA and MDHT were known for their focus and aggression properties and were best for helping strength gains, and it seems many people used these as pre-workout boosts. Could the same thing be done with MMv2?

Thanks for setting up this thread btw...I think it will clear things up for a lot of people.

 

[LG Sciences]

They are basically the same compound, but there are differences between the two for sure, but overall they are almost the same. The differences are subtle, but they both convert into Stanolone and both have androgenic properties, just more 3bHSD in the body free form and more 3aHSD in the muscle. Also the 3bHSD and 3aHSD are not the same enzyme so where the molecules are almost the same, the enzymes that work on them are not.

You can certainly pulse MMV2 in the way you mentioned. It would work well for that and as a stack certainly could be used that way.

 

[LG Sciences]

and i had a question of the dosing of mmv2...wouldnt i have to take 6 tabs a day to get the same effects as LM...do u think a 45 day cycle at 7 tabs a day is good...or not....cuase thats what i was gonna do...

Seems like a pretty high dose, but I would certainly think it would give good results. 300-400mg per day seems enough and I don't know anyone who has dosed it higher.

 

[wheels]

Totally different compounds 1-Androsterone and Androsterone are completely different. The 1- or 4- and other nomenclature defines the structure of the molecule.

1-Androsterone converts to 1-Test ultimately
Androsterone converts to Stanolone (DHT)
4-Androsterone converts to Testosterone
19Nor Androsterone (4-ene) converts to Nandralone (Deca) in the body
1,4 Androsterone (not yet released) converts to Equipoise in the body
4-OH Androsterone converts to HydroxyTest in the body

Androsterone (3a isomer) is better for anti-estrogen effects than epi-androsterone (3b isomer) but I believe the 3b to be much better for muscle building effects due to the increased amount of free 3bHSD in the blood and other tissues. There is also a lot of 3aHSD in the muscle which could activate, but it seems that it is semi-uni directional.

So what is 19-norandrosta 4,9diene 3,17dione and what will it covert to ?

 

[stl123]

Totally different compounds 1-Androsterone and Androsterone are completely different. The 1- or 4- and other nomenclature defines the structure of the molecule.

1-Androsterone converts to 1-Test ultimately
Androsterone converts to Stanolone (DHT)
4-Androsterone converts to Testosterone
19Nor Androsterone (4-ene) converts to Nandralone (Deca) in the body
1,4 Androsterone (not yet released) converts to Equipoise in the body
4-OH Androsterone converts to HydroxyTest in the body

Androsterone (3a isomer) is better for anti-estrogen effects than epi-androsterone (3b isomer) but I believe the 3b to be much better for muscle building effects due to the increased amount of free 3bHSD in the blood and other tissues. There is also a lot of 3aHSD in the muscle which could activate, but it seems that it is semi-uni directional.

Thanks for the info bro.

 

[LG Sciences]

Dienalone is what it converts to.

Diene = two double bonds (4,9 in this case)

Remember Methyl-D from Gaspari well, Methyl Dienalone is the methyl version of Dienalone. Dienalone is actually much better than Methyl Dienalone from the looks of it which is why FinigenX Magnum was such a good product. Dienalone was a strong androgen and it's precursor (in this case a dione) was really good even at 25-50mg per day.

We would bring out the Androsterone version of that which would be Dienandrosterone

 

[Mass_69]

So what is 19-norandrosta 4,9diene 3,17dione and what will it covert to ?

Dude, I just told you 20 minutes ago: http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplements/89227-xtreme-tren.html#post1263849


Besides, it's not an androsterone...

 

[LG Sciences]

Correct, it is not an androsterone derivitive it is an androstenedione derivitive. I expect the Androsterone derivitive would be even better than the dione based on the feedback given from all androsterones. People (like Pat Arnold) are just jealous that I thought of the concept of androsterones first and found the paper on oral testosterone showing the liver is not even an issue since prohormones get deactivated far before they even reach the liver...

 

[Mass_69]

This thread is for anyone that has questions on how Androsterone works or any androsterone based supplements for that matter. I will explain how it is converted and why I think Androsterone based prohormones are the best TRUE prohormones ever created...


...I think because they take full advantage of the body's enzyme system.

Eric,

Were you going to elaborate on this more?

 

[Al Shades]

I think because they take full advantage of the body's enzyme system. Now don't confuse prohormones with prosteroids...two different catagories.

What is the difference? Steroids are hormones. "Pro" steroids/hormones are substances that convert to active steroids in the body.

 

[3clipseGT]

What is the difference? Steroids are hormones. "Pro" steroids/hormones are substances that convert to active steroids in the body.

Real "Prohormones " are not steroids or hormones before they enter the body. Once they enter the body and come in contact with the bodys enzymes 17bHSD ect ect, then it turns them into a prohormone that then converts to a hormone in the body, prosteroids or designers are ALREADY hormones before you even put them in your body and your body doesnt need to do anything to make them active.

Im pretty sure im correct on that. :lol:

 

[slow-mun]

Real "Prohormones " are not steroids or hormones before they enter the body. Once they enter the body and come in contact with the bodys enzymes 17bHSD ect ect, then it turns them into a prohormone that then converts to a hormone in the body, prosteroids or designers are ALREADY hormones before you even put them in your body and your body doesnt need to do anything to make them active.

Im pretty sure im correct on that. :lol:

You are 100% correct. The main things that we want in this industry are effective muscle builders that are DSHEA compliant. All of the current prosteroid/designer steroids are not DSHEA compliant. We want to have products that work, yet are able to be bought and sold OTC without fear that the FDA will try and schedule them. That's the main difference between DSHEA and non-DSHEA compliance. We all want the better mousetrap, but we can't expect the 2004 ban to be repealed, nor can we expect the general public to simply forget the Balco scandal that led to that ban. Two-step prohormones could realistically be all that we have left soon, so more innovation in that area is a good thing. We know they might not be as effective as active compounds and arguing about their efficacy is quickly becoming a moot point as newer/better products are being released.

 

[tilerbreaker]

Thanks LG.

 

[tilerbreaker]

We want to have products that work, yet are able to be bought and sold OTC without fear that the FDA will try and schedule them. That's the main difference between DSHEA and non-DSHEA compliance. We all want the better mousetrap, but we can't expect the 2004 ban to be repealed, nor can we expect the general public to simply forget the Balco scandal that led to that ban. Two-step prohormones could realistically be all that we have left soon, so more innovation in that area is a good thing.

With respect to this point, has anyone looked for substances that might be able to modify the activities of some of the enzymes that help perform these conversions. Theoretically it would be possible to really shift the equilibriums toward favorable conversion rates with compounds like this. No idea if anything like that has ever been looked at. Just speculating though...