anabolic diet and westside4skinny bastards with johnyq

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  1. anabolic diet and westside4skinny bastards with johnyq

    I just switched from a carb heavy diet with no meat, to a mostly red meat "anabolic diet" and figured I'd share my experience. This is a huge change for me. I'd appreciate any support and criticism along the way.

    I've been training WS4SB since september I think. Before that it was low reps, heavy sets. I have only been back into training since june of last year.

    current stats:

    bench ME:240
    squat ME: 275
    deadlift ME: 320

    I have bloodwork from a few months back, and will get new bloodwork after I feel settled into this diet. I also have a picture from before, I'll post it with an update in 4 weeks.

    Current supplements: Probably too many. Trying to cut down on my "stock" (use up bottles that were sitting in my pantry), and then keep it simple with this diet and the basics. Right now I'm on sustain, phyto test, drive and rpm. Everything is getting low now though.

    I'm currently on day 3 of the diet. My experience thus far:

    - hard to get the required calories in at first, but my appetite is starting to increase and I hit my target 3100 yesterday.

    - weight has been fairly steady.

    - Dreams have been intense.

    - mood has been foul.

    - energy in the gym is low starting about halfway through, but I still finish them up just fine.

    Yesterdays diet:

    breakfast: 4 eggs, 1 oz cheddar

    lunch: 8.5oz steak, 6oz broccoli

    preworkout: burger and 1 oz cheddar, 2oz emmental cheese

    postworkout: 2 scoups whey, 1 c no sugar soy milk, flax meal, cinnamon

    dinner: 5.5oz salmon, 3c spinach with vinegar/olive oil

    late night: 1 oz havarti cheese

    Total: ---------3056
    --Sat:---71-----637 ------21%
    Carbs:---34------68 ------2%

    I'll probably just post small updates with how I'm feeling, any PRs, and how the diet is going.
    Last edited by johnyq; 01-29-2008 at 08:59 AM.

  2. updates:

    - weight is staying the same, which from what I understand isn't normal, I hope I'm not doing something wrong.

    - my workout last night sucked. I had no energy. My recovery time seems down as well.

    - My mood is still pretty lousy a lot of the time. I'm also having a lot of dreams.

    - appetite is really growing fast. The first 2 days I could not get to 3k calories, now I have to be mindful to stay at 3100, although according to the diet 3250 is target (18xbodyweight). I think I figured out that cheese is packed with calories and not that filling.

    - Can't really say I feel like I lean out, look about the same. Not that I expected a change in one week.

    - My diet has been good. I think yesterday I hit just barely over 30g of carbs for the first time, so today I will be extra careful. I thought I had spare carbs left to have some blueberries, but I didn't realize my protein shake already had 5grams, doh.

    - I think I'm going to carb load with fruits on sunday, but no junk food or beer until next weekend.

  3. first carb load started last night, ending tonight. Probably not the best way to go about it:

    pancakes, calzone, sandwich with mozzarella, lots of milk, some beer, blueberries in whey shake, were some of the foods

    I got intensely tired last night after the calzone, wow. Went to bed before 11 for the first time in a long time because of it. I was also pretty tired this afternoon after the pancakes.

    I went to the gym today, it was a little tough as I was tired. I'm hoping for a huge day tomorrow, box squats!

  4. don't worry, we all eat like **** on the first carb load! And its normal during the first 3-4 carb ups to enter the carb coma. Everything you have listed that you are feeling is what I felt when I first started (lousy mood, low energy at first in the gym, worse recovery, crazy dreams). And don't concentrate on trying to lean out during the assessment phase because you're eating maintainance calories and you're not going to be losing fat. In fact, for the first few weeks of the diet it was really discouraging because I gained a few pounds of fat. After that first few weeks eating at the same cals I started to see a reduction in body fat while still eating maintainance. Just letting you know this is normal and not to get down on yourself like I did when I first started. You will be very happy that you stuck with it once you are adapted!

  5. Thanks! I expected most of those feelings, so its nothing that is bringing me down. In fact its confirmation that I'm on the right path in a sick sort of way

    Today was great. I was in an awesome mood, and had an insane amount of energy in the gym (although I did sputter out towards the end). I also crushed some box squat numbers

    I'm hoping things continue like that!

    Weight was down about a half pound. I expected it to be up a pound or so after a weekend of carb refeed

    Today was back into my standard weekday diet (as of now)

    breakfast:4 eggs and cheese
    lunch: 9oz steak with broccolli
    post lunch: hamburger patty with garlic, and cheese
    post workout: whey in water
    dinner: salmon and spinach

  6. One good way to up the calories would be oil. Olive oil is a good dressing. Another oil that I have heard is good but yet to try is macadamion nut oil. Suppose to be delicious in your shakes. I also try to avoid soy and would go with some heavy cream man. This diet thrives on the fact that you can enjoy fats!

  7. I love olive oil and put it on everything. Eggs, spinach, celery, you name it. The only thing that doesn't get the treatment is steak, which I cook with avacado oil thanks to the high smoke point.

    last night I didn't sleep very well. I've got about a bottle and a half of abyss that I should have dipped into to help

  8. sleep is still pretty lousy. But I wake up feeling fine, very odd.

    DOMS is way up. My triceps have been burning since sunday, this is not normal for me. It's either the diet or the primoridial performance's phyto-test

    everything else is going great. I feel like I look better than ever and it is week 2. I guess that is the water bloating that is gone? I have slightly increased my calories so I stop losing weight. Did this with some bacon, yum.

    I'm feeling really positive and upbeat, kind of like I'm on the eve of truly defeating my carb addiction and completely changing my physique and health. It's a good feeling.

    i've decided around week 4 I would start phasing down the red meat to a few times a week. 2 times a day plus eggs n bacon isn't likely to be an effective long term diet if you know what I mean

  9. Things are going great. I'm no longer having any mood or energy issues. Last night in the gym was very good.

    I'm down 2 pounds even though I'm trying to eat a ton of calories.

    Picked up some ketostix to make sure I was good, and tested positive for ketones today.

  10. I believe that you do not want to test positive for ketones after a certain amount of time. I don't know how long it takes for your body to utilize the ketone instead of peeing them out. Maybe Botch can comment further.

    (I was going to buy some ketostix, then heard that it was not the goal.)

  11. Skunkman is correct. I'm sure you've read some of the AD thread on T-nation but check out this post by DH which explains to some smart ass kid who can't get it through his thick skull why ketosis is not the goal of the diet:
    "Owen70, thank your lucky stars for two things.

    1. I'm eating CHO right now and they have a sedative effect.

    2. You're in HS and I suppose I was as much of a "shotgun mouth" as any teenager. Or so my father-in-law states. ;-)

    You are correct in one thing. You don't understand the "hypocritical" stance of myself and the originator of the diet. You keep the CHO this low NOT to attain ketosis, but rather to drop glucose levels low enough to trigger significant fat burning AND protein sparring. If/when you ever fully adapt to the diet then ketosis is NOT a reality anymore. Want to know what happens when I whiz on a ketostick? Nothing. My blood glucose hovers around 90-95. Ketosis is nowhere to be found. Since I have ADAPTED, my body is no longer in the metabolic purgatory of ketosis. With the large quantities of CHO we ingest on the load and the minimal daily value, we keep just out of ketosis. We're like a plane skimming the ground. We don't land, we hover.

    Dan "I'm wrong 99% of the time" Ducahine demanded NO CHO on mon, tues, and wed (?). He was focusing on forcing you into a rapid ketosis condition by eliminating ALL CHO, with concommitant liberal usage of VS and Metformin to plummet blood sugar. Now what Duchaine did NOT realize is that even at this rate, once the person adapted, he would use FATTY ACIDS, and TRIGLYCERIDES as the primary fuel sources. But then Mauro says this is to be used as a lifestyle eating pattern, not just a 6 week diet solution for a contest. We are wave cycling here. That is why Doc D calls it a cyclical diet, or macronutrient cycling, NOT a CKD.

    The focus on ketosis is like having me point at something while you just look at my finger.

    You get your glycogen depleted during the weekdays. This allows for an enhanced uptake of both glucose and amino acids into the muscle. It is preferentially shuttled to the muscle after this scarcity it has experienced. We use this to trick the body into accepting more than normal amounts of various substances to trigger an anabolic response. Here AGAIN Duchaine has his focus wrong. He thought that the above conditions leading to "kinetic cellular expansion" was the golden boy. NO. That is a real benefit that has some value, but the real money is the HORMONAL cascade that the cyclical pattern sets in motion. To Duchaine it was all about ketosis->glycogen supercompensation. To Di Pasquale it is all about adaptation->hormonal maximization. Once you adapt then ketosis is not attained and neither should it be a goal.

    This whole fixation that causes people to miss the big picture reminds me of the training to failure controversy. It's not necessary and should not be sought as it increases CNS demand. You can get "near" failure and still hit the necessary MU's to derive the effect. Both of these dogmatic "needs" (training->failure and ketosis) are doing nothing but taking a good observation and coming to a bad conclusion.

    Anyway, ketosis sucks after an initial break in period. It is counterproductive to BB's and PL's whose activity is centered around anaerobic exercise that is fueled by glycogen.

    We drop down "close" to ketosis where we have the full benefits (once adapted) of using fat as THE premier fuel source. During this time the body holds stored glycogen like a fat cop does a donut. We use it ONLY for weight training purposes. During this time insulin is low/healthy, thus it continues to do it's job of nutrient transfer but won't be able to deposit anything into fat very easily (unless you eat a freakin' cow). Amino acids are sent to muscle as normal BUT and here is the real purpose, testosterone levels are elevated, GH is elevated (as it often operates in an antagonistic fashion with insulin), glucagon is bumped up for fat loss (not too much so), and neurotransmitters that allow for alertness are in ample supply and used. We have an anabolic cocktail going on right then NOT ketosis. The value of the ketostix are about as much as the urine you spill on them at this point.

    Then as we load we derive the benefits of the mother of all insulin surges and have another fascinating ADAPTATION phenomenon happen, we get BOTH insulin and GH elevated during at least the first 24 hours of the load. Yup, that's right. Doc D has found that for the first day of loading at least, you are continuing to burn fat at a higher than normal rate and we can actually have GH and insulin working in tandem. This is normally not a possibility. The benefit and purpose is to wave your CHO to cause a hormonal cascade that allows for anabolic action during BOTH the low carb phase and the uptake phase.

    Try to offer comments and assistance instead of argumentative jabs. When you don't understand something then say so, don't come across as a jilted authority, bro. You'll be taken more seriously and you'll show you have a normal respect for the opinions/experiences of others. You can question me all you want, but you should familiarize yourself with the Metabolic Diet by Di Pasquale before you implicate him as ?hypocritical?. What you?ve been is HYPER critical You?ve got too much Lyle and Duchaine in your understanding.

    This is the Anabolic Diet thread. We want growth. It is the best cutting diet too, but the key is muscle growth. We want the best of both worlds. The AD is just that.


    I've also PMed you an interview with Dr. Di Pasquale himself where he explains more about ketosis and the AD.

  12. I don't really understand the principle, but I have indeed read that on the AD you shouldn't be in "ketosis".

    I will say that after working out last night my pee tested negative for ketones. I figured when I was being sedate (at work), and eating a lot of fat, then I should have ketones, and thats what happened. I don't know if that is correct or not.

    Really I just want to make sure I'm not killing myself by eating too many carbs with this saturated fat. It was an easy test just to verify.

    I'll try not to think about it from now on. I appreciate the feedback.

    today in the gym I found out my bench has suffered a decent amount, but I have been doing incline bench in place of flat bench for 3 weeks, so that could also be why. And now my weight is down 2.5lbs since starting.

  13. keep up the good work brotha and those numbers in the gym will start going up soon. I weighed in this week and I'm 15 lbs heavier than when I started the AD about 12 weeks ago (and when I took that avy picture). I hadn't even realized I had gained that much in such a short period of time! Oh and how is the Phyto-test treating you? I have two bottles of the stuff that I'll be using in about a month.

  14. appreciate the support and info!

    You look badass in that pic, congrats on all the gains.

    phytotest got mixed in with this diet change, so its been hard to isolate effects. muscle hardness has gone up and appetite is WAY up. I feel bigger but leaner. I think its something I'll try again once I don't have any other variables conflicting with it.

    Carbs hit me pretty hard this afternoon. I got really tired. Will it be this way every weekend?

    I also am seeing what people talk about overdoing it. All of these fruits, chocolate milk, etc that I have been craving, I want to eat all in one sitting. I'm trying to remind myself that I get to eat these items for 36 hours, so there is no rush.
    Last edited by johnyq; 02-02-2008 at 06:32 PM.

  15. Keep up the log man. Sounds like you are adapting well.

  16. Use lower GI carbs, like old fashioned oatmeal, ezikiel cereal/bread, brown/wild rice, and sweet potato's for the majority, maybe 70% of your total carb sources. Reduce the refeed to 12-24 hours. See if that helps the carb coma.

    Oh, and don't be afraid to eat 1 crappy meal...

    Honestly I don't crave anything anymore like candy bars on refeeds. I crave like whole wheat pasta, and hood milk with ezekiel cereal, and oatmeal with PB.

  17. subscribed!! i read most of the book. interesting idea. i would like to see what happens with high cholesterol and heart disease. do you have a family history of high cholesterol and heart disease? and botch give me some feedback on how your try with this diet went and if you saw better HDL and LDL numbers on this diet?

  18. Good job, stick with it. Botch, glad to see you mention the you gained weight through the induction. I, too, gained weight. Just finished week 3 and up about 3lbs. Seems this is different than a CKD, on which I lost about 10lbs in teh 1st 2 weeks, just gotta see it through.

  19. Just curious as to whether you guys are super strict on carb-ups if you are doing a 36 hour one. As in if you started at 7 a.m. saturday you stop at 7 p.m. sunday no matter what? I usually like to eat something like an hour before going to bed which wouldn't really work in this time-frame.

  20. I'm trying to stick to 24hours, although this past weekend I probably went around 30 hours. I should probably be doing a 12 hour carb based on body fat, but no way am I skipping the chance to have a few beers on saturday night

    SIX pounds up today. That is 3 pounds since the start, and 6 pounds since friday. I assume this is the sort of typical gain I should see over a weekend of carb loading?

    Do you guys think I'm ready to exit the intro phase and start the cutting phase? I'll start counting calories again and bring it down to 2800 and see what happens (and shorten the carb phase on the weekend I guess). Its been 16 days or so since I started the AD.

    Today at the gym I smashed some more box squats. Added 10 pounds since last week. I'm moving my max effort upper body day to tuesday (it used to be on friday) to take advantage of the carb load.

    diet today:
    breakfast: 4 eggs, mushrooms, cheese, heavy cream
    lunch: 10oz steak, asparagus, 5g fish oil
    snack: emmental cheese
    preworkout: 7oz burger with cheese and asparagus
    postworkout: whey with low carb soy milk, cocoa powder, miracle greens (18carbs total in this meal)
    dinner: 6 oz salmon and spinach, 5 g fish oil

  21. Johny....I give you some info and you dont tell me about your log......why you litte.......

    LOL j/k man. Im in
    Serious Nutrition Solutions Representative

  22. lol

    ok, so weight back down 3 pounds. 182.

    Moved my ME upper body day to tuesday (today), and saw most of my strength on bench return. It was a really good day in the gym for the most part.

    Tomorrow I will start counting calories @ 2800 a day. I hope to start seeing 2lbs a week drop off. I'm not really sure how to treat the weekends. I plan on carb loading 24 hours, and in that time just trying to stay reasonable (if I have pizza, only eat 2 slices and not 2 pies)...

    Here is my schedule:
    mon: ME lower body
    Tue: ME upper body
    Wed: "off"
    thur: DE lower body
    frid; RE upper body
    sat/sun: off

    I'm officially off all "supplements". I do have a bottle of drive/rpm left but I am not going to run them until I figure out this cutting phase first.

    Here is my standard health stack which I will continue taking:
    multivitamin (AOR ortho care or Milleniums stack)
    NAC,RALA,coq10,SAM-e,Fish oil,miracle greens,Whey
    tricreatine malate bulk, xtend.
    Last edited by johnyq; 02-05-2008 at 11:51 PM.

  23. subbed.

    Good luck bro and the race is on =p

  24. subbed as well!!

  25. Quote Originally Posted by johnyq View Post
    appreciate the support and info!

    You look badass in that pic, congrats on all the gains.

    phytotest got mixed in with this diet change, so its been hard to isolate effects. muscle hardness has gone up and appetite is WAY up. I feel bigger but leaner. I think its something I'll try again once I don't have any other variables conflicting with it.

    Carbs hit me pretty hard this afternoon. I got really tired. Will it be this way every weekend?

    I also am seeing what people talk about overdoing it. All of these fruits, chocolate milk, etc that I have been craving, I want to eat all in one sitting. I'm trying to remind myself that I get to eat these items for 36 hours, so there is no rush.
    I have to admit during about the first month of starting this diet when I would carb up I would completely overdo it. Psychologically I felt like I needed to eat everything I craved during the week over the weekend but this is surely not the case. One time it was to the point where I woke up at 3am puking my guts out for a couple hours. Not fun. The longer you stay on this diet the easier it will be to curb your cravings for carbs. I was probably also eating more crappy food than I should have been. But after being on the diet for a while I enjoy a more moderate approach by testing what different foods that I eat on the weekend will do to me during the week. Right now I'm doing a Wed/Sat split where on Wednesday night I eat a meal of high GI carbs and during the whole day Saturday I eat 90% low GI carbs such as pasta, oats and wheat bread to name a few. I also eat more fat than I used to to slow the release of insulin throughout the day (about 30% of total cals during carb up). The problem you are having with entering the carb coma is normal during the first month. This is happening because unfortunately you are still getting adjusted and on the weekend your body is making the shift back to carbohydrate burning. Luckily for you this should stop within the next 1-2 carb ups and gradually become non existent. Since you are not yet past the transition phase, I would recommend that you don't cut your calories any lower than you already have for at least a couple more weeks.


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