The Master Thread: Cutting
- 07-24-2008, 06:55 PM
The Master Thread: Cutting
Seems like too many threads being created for the same problems. Often titles will read "I'm fat! Help!" or "Help me with a diet". Well here I am going to try and set the record straight in brief layman's terms so new knuckleheads can get a grip on their nutrition when trying to cut some fat; without flooding the forums.
First thing that every new cutter should know is that there are 5 essential parts to a good weight cutting plan. I will briefly go through each one and their components. I will add links to specifics so readers can learn more. Here are the five, and in my mind, they are also in the order of importance:
1)Determinations- At the beginning of a new nutritional plan, just like a the beginning of a new training program, certain criteria and goals need to be established. If these things are not sought, your actions will likely be in vein or at least not productive as they could be. You will need to determine the following before starting your cut:
- Mesomorph, Ectomorph, Endomorph Find your type
- BMR, Body Fat, Caloric needs according to BMR and activity level
You will need these things to be able to establish an accurate and productive nutritional plan.
- BMR Calculator
- Daily Caloric Needs Use your BMR with this. There are other methods out there, they vary but are usually similar.
- Everyone needs goals, not only to create a measurable account of success but also for motivation
- If you’re dieting correctly you SHOULD NOT be losing more than 1.5-2 pounds per week. Set your goals in accordance with this. If you are losing more than this, there is a decent chance you are losing muscle. Your mileage may vary, of course.
2)The Diets- There is a seemingly infinite amount of diets out there; everywhere you look you will see a diet being advertised. Many of us are accustomed to hearing phrases like Atkins, Southbeach, Low-carb and Anabolic diet. Don’t be fooled, each of these diets and most others out there have their place, but if you’re a part of Anabolic Minds you probably have different goals then the majority population. Always pick a diet according to goals, NOT what is in or hip at the moment.
- When trying to cut, begin with determining how many calories you should be taking in by subtracting 500 from your daily caloric needs (needs that take activity level into account). After some time, you can adjust this number (500) according to your results. Again your mileage may vary.
- If you do not eat enough calories, you WILL LOSE MUSCLE and you will gain all of your fat back much easier than if you took the slow road. Slow and steady wins the race, right?
- Use Excel or another program to track your calories. I prefer excel.
- Whichever diet you decide on, you should try to consume ATLEAST four meals a day. Six or more meals a day is optimal.
- Do your best to distribute the big 3 as evenly as possible throughout these meals (protein, carbs, fats).
- Use exact measurements. There is no way you’ll be able to account for your intake if you do not use precise measurements. You do not need to have a food scale, but it is helpful. Measuring cups/spoons are very important.
- Cheating is cheating and comes with the same result as always. You cheat often enough and you will fail.
- Dieting to cut is not easy and usually isn’t fun. While there are certain things you can do to help yourself along mentally, it’s going to be tough regardless unless you’re a meth head.
•Chicken, turkey, beef, pork, fish, pretty much all meat
•Whole gain foods
•Almost all veggies
•Nuts, natural peanut butter
•Eggs, milk, cheese, yogurt
Standard: This diet is considered the standard, well balanced diet utilized by most lifters. It consists of calories 40% protein, 40% carbohydrate and 20% fats. You will determine your calories from the info in section 1. It’s important to have a well balanced diet with as few processed and fake foods as possible. Don’t skimp on those vegetables.
- These diets can be tailored to fit anyone’s preferences.
- Most other diets aside from the following 2 diets fall into this category.
The Anabolic Diet/CKD: This diet utilizes ketosis and the depletion of glycogen. It is a favorite of those cutting and has also been known to help those trying to bulk. This is my personal favorite as the food choice is great.
- This diet features a plan that focuses on a carb intake as close to 0 as possible for generally 5-6 days in a row followed by a massive “carb up” which allows muscle to refill on glycogen.
- I’m going to recommend this diet only to those who have a small to moderate amount of fat to lose. Additionally, if you aren’t mentally strong this one may be tough. Carb cravings suck.
- Anabolic Diet
TKD: This diet is similar to the CKD in that it utilizes ketosis and low carb intake to force the body to use fat for fuel instead of carbs. It differs, however in that it allows for more carb intake in and around workouts to allow for maximum performance. A little less difficult in my opinion, but still a difficult diet. Results may be slower than on CKD, but that is debated.
- In my mind these are the two most user friendly “bodybuilding” cut diets in terms of results and sustaining muscle. There are others out there, but they are less common. Stick with these and you’ll be set.
3) Training on a cut:
- Cardio is NOT mandatory. If you are utilizing your diet properly, you will not need to change ANYTHING outside of your diet to achieve some level of results.
- Training on a cut diet is for the most part similar to training on a bulk diet. While there are differences in reps/sets and weight according to specific diets and personal preference, many are able to maintain their same workout plan and achieve results. That being said, there are things you can do to improve and speed up your results.
- There are varying opinions on this subject, use your personal preference and experience to judge how you should be lifting.
- Many chose to increase reps to 12-15 or more while on cut diet.
- Extra cardio and or high intensity interval training can be used to increase results by burning more calories and hence increasing caloric deficit. Keep in mind though that too much of a deficit cause catabolism or in other words, losing the wrong kind of weight.
- Don’t read this and get all hot in the pants. Supplements are not needed to cut fat and for the most part, you will be wasting your money. Even if you chose to use the few supplements out there that do help, you will achieve NOTHING if the other steps in this process are not up to par.
- There are several types of supplements that aid in fat loss. There are stimulants, appetite suppressants and supplements that actually act on fat. There are also supplements that help to lean someone out as a byproduct of their actual function.
- DCP/ Leviathan Reloaded
- Venom Hyperdrive
- Transdermals- napalm, atomic meltdown etc.
- Green Tea or Green Tea Caps
- Anabolic Pump
- Lean Extreme
- Shred Matrix
- Yohimbe hcl
- Supplements are the LAST piece of the puzzle. LAST LAST LAST.
5) Persistence and Determination:
No one is going to lose the weight for you. No one is going to stick your diets out for you. No one is going to make you sweat in the gym but you. You live and die alone on this. For some people a support system, such as a dieting buddy, can help you along, but do not depend on anyone or anything (read:supplements) when striving for your goals. If you don’t stick to your well thought out, informed and strict plan, you WILL fail and remain the grotesque blob that you let yourself become after your ‘college’ or ‘high school football’ days that we hear about so often. Do not take shortcuts, there are none! If you fail, it’s your fault.
DISCLAIMER: This is not very in depth, there is a lot more to learn beyond these basics. I myself am just scratching the surface as far as my personal knowledge. Others will chime in with other pertinent information. I have probably posted some incorrect or challenged ideas in this thread. Feel free to correct me. Let’s stop with the senseless “OMG I’m FAT, HELP” threads. FYI: There are probably typos in here; I don't care.
- 07-24-2008, 07:38 PM
good postStrong people are harder to kill than weak people, and more useful in general. -Rippetoe
- 07-24-2008, 07:52 PM
07-24-2008, 08:04 PM
Great newb thread, it might help to throw some key words in there somewhere like, losing weight, fat loss. You know what i mean? For people searching that would need to read this i doubt they know what "cutting" is.
07-24-2008, 08:08 PM
O i thought this was about how to perform surgery on a fat kid!
Strong people are harder to kill than weak people, and more useful in general. -Rippetoe
07-24-2008, 08:21 PM
07-24-2008, 11:15 PM
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Rugger1 again.
07-25-2008, 01:22 AM
awesome post man.
07-26-2008, 12:35 AM
Okai, I went through both calculations and according to the numbers I should be eating 3000 calories to lose weight??
Maybe i'm just a complete noob but I'm shocked at this number. I am getting my 1 gram of protein per body fat and cutting carbs. But i doubt my daily intake of calories exceed 2000 currently. However it is working for me and I don't feel hungry in most instances. Should I really be upping my calories up an extra 1,000?
I'm 238, 5,11 and a half, 22 years old. I don't know, the thought of eating 3,000 calories a day seems kinda crazy to me.
07-26-2008, 08:53 AM
07-26-2008, 09:25 AM
BMR and BMI are junk.
07-26-2008, 09:42 AM
07-26-2008, 09:53 AM
Maintenance...sustaining body weight over an extended period of time, where all else is the same. This is your maintenance regardless of what some BMR tells you it should be.
Unless you are starved, have some form of disease or a serious health issue you are not going catabolic or muscle wasting.
Like any other animal, fat is stored within LBM tissue. As you reduce body fat your muscle girth will diminish as well. Unless you have a hydro bf test that tells you that you are losing LBM at some unusually greater rate than normal there is no need to believe you are catabolic.
I hate to break it to some folks, but everyone loses some LBM when they diet.
07-26-2008, 11:43 AM
true but depending on how you go about it can reduce the amount of muscle loss to quite an extent
07-26-2008, 04:29 PM
The muscle loss does concern me. Maybe I should take the slower road. I'll probably add in some more protein in my diet as well as some unprocessed complex carbs. Up my calorie intake to somewhere around 2400 or so. Should I up my intake of fat as well? the only fat i get currently is from the loose bits on the chicken breast, the olive oil I use for eggs if i eat any eggs at all, low fat cottage cheese, and the 8 ounces of 1 percent milk. You guys think maybe half a handful of mixed nuts will help me maintain muscle while still cutting weight?
07-27-2008, 01:32 AM
good post man.
but I always hear/read " if you are losing more then 2lbs a week then you are dieting wrong. That is totally dependent on your stats/dedication/drugs and genetics. a 300lbs male that does no cardio and is not accustomed to exercise could esaily lose 4lbs a week if he put his diet into gear and did cardio. A 115lbs female who is already lean will never lose 4lbs a week.. more like .5 lbs.
Additionally... not to blow my own horn but when I cut I go big or go home and can lose 3-4 lbs a week while losing minimal muscle simply because i really dedicate my self. I am never hungry and have cheat meals but having the right macro nutrient balance and eating at the right times is supremely important. Loading carbs in the morning and cutting them after lunch is bull****, and imo is the main culprit for muscle loss. My genetics are nothing special, and i do use gear occasionally cause well... **** genes. But good post man. :bb3:
07-28-2008, 09:06 PM
Yes of course, losing fat is person dependent, just like most everything else is. However, this post was targeted at the common visitor we have here who is usually lean relative to the general population. With that being said, 1-2 pounds a week isn't like some genetic limit, but rather a commonly agreed upon recommendation that people might want to target to aid in keeping weight off and not losing more muscle than necessary by cutting weight too fast. I'm sure if I tried I could lose 10lbs a week.
All of this stuff is just generic. There's no way that I'm aware of to determine actual limits, needs and the like. This is why we go off of anecdotal forumulas and recommendations.
07-28-2008, 11:28 PM
I wrestle and when I have to make weight I dehydrate myself about 2 to 3 days before weigh-ins and I pretty much stop eating except for like a power or luna bar after wrestling practice about 4-5 days before weigh-ins. I usualy cut about 15 pounds in 5-7 days sometimes even more, but the point is that what Rugger has written here is a diet plan that anyone of just about any fitness level can start with and change to adapt to thier own needs to lose weight (fat) and keep it off.
07-29-2008, 12:27 AM
yeah dehydration and dieting are 2 different things. I am agreeing with rutger and said it was a great post.. im simply putting my 2 cents in so people who read this **** get as much info possible because because one thing that is 100% certain in bodybuilding is that very few things are certain.
07-29-2008, 12:45 AM
ture the more you think about it, it seems that bodybuilding is based on theory, with so many different ways to train and diet it gets confusing
07-29-2008, 11:26 PM
07-29-2008, 11:36 PM
07-30-2008, 12:14 AM
Okay so we've determined that bmi is not necessary and doesn't apply to most of us.
07-30-2008, 12:16 AM
07-30-2008, 01:26 AM
im gona add something to what some1 said about never being hunfry whuoe dieting. im taking in about 2900 cals a day and im 213 atm. in 3 weeks ive dropped about 9 lbs. im hungry alot. not as bad as my first or second week now but still hungry for at least .5-1hr before i can eat.
and cardio late at night im VERY hungry cuz my last meal was like 2 hours ago then add anopther 30-40 min cardio ...thats a while to not eat.
ne1 else get hungry like me?
07-30-2008, 09:24 AM
at night I take bcaa/eaa and that knocks the hunger right out of me. I wake up feeling refreshed...and hungry like a beast!
07-30-2008, 11:59 AM
07-30-2008, 01:42 PM
How much more weight do you need to lose?? If it is a lot more then you may be setting your self up for a grueling last few weeks of dieting if you are already struggling with hunger.
07-30-2008, 03:01 PM
When you are super hungery like that its okay to have a small protien shake, because it sounds like you are at a high risk of catabolism which is every bodybuilders worst nightmare
07-30-2008, 04:53 PM
07-30-2008, 07:10 PM
Consider for a minute what your stomach capacity thinks of the new found deprivation. Cutting food volume down drastically increases ones propensity to binge because of a the shock to the body.
If someone is going to drop food volume down, or drastically cut calories they need to introduce highly fibrous low calorie foods like vegetables into their diet. They can provide satiation that is otherwise lost when cutting out calorie dense foods.
Fiber powder is another option. Psylium husk works well for some at providing satiation.
Ultimately the first step to dieting should be increased energy expenditure. As your body adjusts to the increased energy expenditure it partions the already present calories to lbm as long as the expenditure is not to extreme. Then slowly introduce a deficit in small increments over time.
When I diet right I eat every 2-3 hours for satiation. Even if I am in a considerable defect it stokes my metabolism because my body knows its going to be fed every two hours and does not default to the starvation mode and tank my metabolism. Even if I do get hungry it won't be long before I eat again.
Just some random input.
07-30-2008, 10:29 PM
would you say that decreasing calories by 100 each week would be good assuming its only for about at the most 8 weeks?
07-31-2008, 01:01 AM
down 100 isnt too bad. Instead of Psylium husk (which a lot of people love and prefer), I actually prefer glucomannan for satiation. Always seems to make me feel more full than I truly am.
07-31-2008, 02:46 AM
i've cut my calories drastically but hunger isn't a problem due to the fact that health foods seems so damn filling. For example 8 ounces of chicken breast and 1/3 cup of oatmeal (before cooking) is very very filling. And they're only about 450 calories added together.
07-31-2008, 03:57 AM
added to favorites... i like the no bs approach man, good post
CURRENT 2014 Log http://anabolicminds.com/forum/old-school-hormone/252748-cherry-poppin-test.html
08-04-2008, 11:36 PM
08-05-2008, 12:07 AM
Any suggestions on dealing with alcohol?
I have a pretty darn lean diet, all nice and trimmed, brown rice, sweet potatoes, vegetables and salad for dinner, oat meal for breakfast, a nice PB and Banana toast for brunch, the whole thing, small portions and everything. Good calorie count overall as well. Usually 400 below maintance level.
Supps are in order, the usual multi, fish oil, joint, now giving a try to an AP, Thyrogen X and Lean Xtreme stack and seeing how it goes, started just recently.
But what always, always, slows me down is the booze. By no means I'm an alcoholic, but I do enjoy a beer or wine a couple nights a week. Not even pass out drunk, but a nice six pack beer when watching football that's about to kick off again is always nice. I even go for the lean beer or white wine, a Bud Select or something like that, and yet, it still holds me back.
08-05-2008, 12:19 AM
Cutting alcohol is something I'll never do, unless on cycle or maybe when I "grow up". I'm still young and am going to enjoy my time to the fullest. I think the effects of alcohol are largely exaggerated. Yes, excessive drinking can negate progress to an extent, but I drink probably 2-4 times a month pretty heavily and I don't think it's really hampered my progress.
Looking jacked and lean isn't the most important thing to me. It may be to others, however.
I know that didn't answer your question LOL. I guess I'm just in a different situation than you are. I don't drink regularly, but when I do I get pretty trashed. I've heard that there are pills out there you can take and they make you really sick if mixed with any amout of liquor. Maybe you can look into those.
08-18-2008, 02:53 AM
What about using HMB to help retain muscle while cutting?...(non-hormonal, but does it actually work as advertised? who knows)...
08-20-2008, 08:05 AM
yawn to that imo.
bcaa/eaa/phosphatidyl serine. Not cheap...but super effective.
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