[SimplyDraven]

I have a quick question for anyone who knows the answer...

I'm trying to cut right now while preserving (or gaining) muscle. So naturally I decided to go with an AP/Recreate stack. I have heard rave reviews about these products individually and even better while they are stacked. The only thing I hear negatively (in my opinion) about the Recreate is in the energy and appetite suppressant categories. Now, I've been an ephedrine/stimulant junkie for a while now, and because I don't get much sleep, I rely on my stims to get me through my work day alert and focused. Is it a problem to take a low dose of ephedrine or hydroxycut in the mornings with these USP products? I just don't want to hurt my stack progress or my body.

Other supps i take in case it matters or you have any advice include:
-Fish Oil
-Flax Seed Oil
-Multi-Vitamin
-Creatine (I have both ethel-ester and Pre-Alkalyn 1500. Which should I be using?)
-Protein Shakes
-BCAA's (approx 20g/day)
-3300 Elite (hi-healths version of Nitrix by BSN)

[datBtrue]

Originally Posted by SimplyDraven

...I'm trying to cut right now while preserving (or gaining) muscle. So naturally I decided to go with an AP/Recreate stack.

Naturally. Goes without saying bro... I mean who in their right mind would attempt such a thing without that stack ...I shudder to think.

Originally Posted by SimplyDraven

Now, I've been an ephedrine/stimulant junkie for a while now, and because I don't get much sleep, I rely on my stims to get me through my work day alert and focused. Is it a problem to take a low dose of ephedrine or hydroxycut in the mornings with these USP products? I just don't want to hurt my stack progress or my body.

Here is the root of your entire problem bro. If you would have mentioned it to begin with we could have simplified the advise.

STOP using stimulants. STOP relying on ephedrine for weight loss. STOP dosing all stimulants...let your body recover first before you continue on.

Originally Posted by SimplyDraven

Other supps i take in case it matters or you have any advice include:
-Fish Oil
-Flax Seed Oil
-Multi-Vitamin
-Creatine (I have both ethel-ester and Pre-Alkalyn 1500. Which should I be using?)
-Protein Shakes
-BCAA's (approx 20g/day)
-3300 Elite (hi-healths version of Nitrix by BSN)

Supps aren't what is gonna get it done bro. The fish oil & multi-vitamin should part of your daily diet... everything else is just "everything else".

[SimplyDraven]

Hey, dat.

Thanks for all the sarcasm. That will help me to have a better day and I assume it has already made you feel much better about yourself...

By naturally, I didn't mean it couldn't be done without supps, i just meant, if i was looking for a supp stack to help, that was a pretty good and/or obvious choice from everything I have read about it.

Nowhere did I mention that I rely on stims for fat loss, and I dont. I just live an extremely strenuous lifestyle and work a **** ton of hours and the only way for me to get more sleep would be to cut out my gym time. So I use stims to allow me to stay alert and focused while I am on the clock. The "Junkie" term was just a joke to let you know I've used them for a while. I take them first thing in the morning when I get up and that's it.

...And I'm sure you're right. Protein, creatine, and BCAA's are just "everything else". They are not at all staples for building/preserving muscle. My bad...

[EasyEJL]

really too though, inadequate sleep robs you of the ability to maximize muscle growth. So i'd defintiely stick with separate bulk phase and cut phase as you will need the help if you arent getting 8 hours + a nite.

[SimplyDraven]

Thanks easy.

I am cutting. Not bulking. But I am just trying to cut without losing muscle. Simple as that. Want to get my bf% down while maintaining what muscle i have.

Really all I was wondering was about the effect the stims and the USP products might have on each other...

Of course, being fairly new to all this, I am ALWAYS open for advice and constructive criticism, assuming it can be done without trying to make people feel stupid... ::cough cough::

[SimplyDraven]

On a side note, dat, I know you are a well respected member of this community and I don't mean to knock that. Just use some tact man. Don't make people afraid to ask questions by answering them with sarcasm and rudeness.

LEARN, TEACH, LEAD

[datBtrue]

Originally Posted by SimplyDraven

Hey, dat.

Thanks for all the sarcasm. That will help me to have a better day and I assume it has already made you feel much better about yourself...

No bro. I'm just tired of the supplement mind set bleeding over into all things bodybuilding. I'm tired of getting asked on all boards IF this CJC stuff will help me lose all of my fat in one month. My answer is NO. Then I get "right Dat but what do you think of this dose or that stack will that do it."

Quick fixes...and hope. Thats what people are buying most of the time.

Then I pick up a MD magazine and I see an ad that claims Powerful is "just like & even better than Growth Hormone"...

I'm not bagging on this company...shoot I bought up plenty of Powerful when it was sold in bulk by NP. But its not better than GH.

SO now I'm suppose to apologize because I hurt your feelings. But let me ask you did you ever post up your diet in this thread?

I understand you posted the macros but you never identified the foods you eat and meal structures. You don't think its important?

I know you want to use AP but have you ever used a glucose disposal agent? Have you ever manipulated the Glycemic load with fiber?

Do you know what carbs make the smallest impact on blood glucose? For that matter what is your normal blood glucose pattern between meals?

What is your meal spacing?

At what points during your day do you expend the most energy? Do you match those moments in time with the proper fuel?

At what points in the day are you using carbs for energy? When are you using fat for energy?

Do you eat a lot of eggs? Are you natural or are you a steroid user? Again do you eat eggs?

Are you using high GI carbs PWO or mid GI carbs post workout?

Do you rely on shakes for meals? Does the protein you use have an impact on blood glucose levels or is it slower digesting. If you use a shake why do you use it in place of whole foods?

Blah, blah, blah...

Diet is important.

AND IT NEEDS TO BE CHANGED WHEN THINGS STALL!

Originally Posted by SimplyDraven

Nowhere did I mention that I rely on stims for fat loss, and I dont. I just live an extremely strenuous lifestyle and work a **** ton of hours and the only way for me to get more sleep would be to cut out my gym time. So I use stims to allow me to stay alert and focused while I am on the clock. The "Junkie" term was just a joke to let you know I've used them for a while. I take them first thing in the morning when I get up and that's it.

E everyday is not good. IF you are taking it every morning it doesn't matter what you call it. It is not good.

Originally Posted by SimplyDraven

...And I'm sure you're right. Protein, creatine, and BCAA's are just "everything else". They are not at all staples for building/preserving muscle. My bad...

No whole foods are the staples. I rarely ever use a protein shake. I'm not alone. But believe what you want bro.

You were correct about one thing. I had no business sticking my nose into your thread and abusing your illusions.

Finally bro you don't owe me any respect so please don't give it to me. If you feel like saying f@ck off Dat...then do it. Here I'll do it for you ..."Dat go f@ck yourself! You are one condescending muthaf@cker. What you think I didn't already know all that? I was asking about supplements. This is for you Dat"

Feel better? I do. That was kinda fun. "Dat you are a condescending muthaf@cker." Yep I think I kinda is!

Come on bro lighten up ...I already have.

[SimplyDraven]

dat,

I just want to give you a quick response and then be done with the pissing contest.

First of all, I have worked my ass off in the gym for the last year to finally do something about my weight problem. In fact, I recently realized I was overtraining and working MUCH HARDER than I even needed to. I tell you this because it bothers me that you are so quick to lump me into the category of fat lazy f#cks that want a magic pill to make them Muscle Mag's cover model. I don't and I am not at all afraid to shed some blood, sweat, and tears for results.

Also, I do not in any way try and portray myself as a fitness expert, physiology brainiac, or nutritionist. I have done a lot of reading and research on the things that interest and pertain to me and my goals, but there is a vast amount of knowledge left for me to soak up. That's why I spend at least an hour a day browsing the AM forums.

But let me ask you did you ever post up your diet in this thread?

No I did not. I asked a question. That was merely it. If i did not provide enough info for you to answer it, then by all means, let me know what I neglected and I would gladly provide the necessary info.

You were correct about one thing. I had no business sticking my nose into your thread and abusing your illusions.

I never claimed you had no business in my thread. I'd be a fool to post something in a public domain and not want people to get involved. It sucks that the "one thing I was right about" was something I didn't even say, nor do I feel that way...

Finally bro you don't owe me any respect so please don't give it to me. If you feel like saying f@ck off Dat...then do it. Here I'll do it for you ..."Dat go f@ck yourself! You are one condescending muthaf@cker. What you think I didn't already know all that? I was asking about supplements. This is for you Dat"

Feel better? I do. That was kinda fun. "Dat you are a condescending muthaf@cker." Yep I think I kinda is!

This is not at all what I was intending to say to you. In fact I believe just a few posts ago in this thread I thanked you and all the other responders for the wealth of information and encouragement. I do respect you and everyone else in this community that has the dedication to the sport of bodybuilding or just nutrition/health in general. Like I said, I spend hours browsing this and other sites trying to soak up a small percentage of what you and others like you already know. It is worthy of respect.

Really, all in all, I was merely pointing out that when you do attack someone with sarcasm and make them feel stupid for asking a question, it is only going to encourage people to go out and buy supplements they know nothing about, but are too afraid to ask so they trust product marketing campaigns. Its exactly what you said you are tired of, yet your lack of tact enforces it.

I asked the same question in a different AP thread and this is the response I got from Mullet. The funny thing is, he advises pretty much the same thing, just in a much more considerate way:

SD,

Many of the complaints from ReCreate, ironically, stem from users who have used the more stimulant-based ECA stack. I say ironic, as such a stack, while effective, is often counterproductive in the context of fat loss. Sleep is the greatest aid to both muscle preservation and fat loss - beyond what any supplement may contribute. Keeping that in mind, we deliberately designed ReCreate to supersede these adverse effects. In my opinion, I would avoid the EC/Hydroxycut, and enjoy the undisturbed sleep one may attain with ReCreate.

In terms of focus and energy, ReCreate provides clean sustainable energy via endogenous beta-2 agonism. Rather than synthetically stimulate adrenergic (energy) receptors, ReCreate increases levels of the master adrenergic hormone and neurotransmitter - Norepinephrine. This produces very clean, very sustainable energy without the crash which comes adjacent with most fat-burners.

Further, ReCreate increases levels of the active T3, and promotes conversion of the somewhat inactive T4. This obviously produces affect on nutrient metabolism, but significantly contributes to stable energy levels as well. I think if you were to cut out the more 'hardcore stimulants' for some time, you would actually realize your need for them was born out of adrenergic fatigue!

This all creates a confluent effect on fat loss - both direct stimulation of lipolysis (fat loss) via the above mentioned mechanisms, but also by utilizing the body's already VERY potent fat loss mechanisms. Some may not realize it, but your body liberates stored triglycerides into Fatty Acids during the night. It is known as nightime lipolysis. Without adequate levels of sleep, this process is perturbed, and you miss out on all that fat loss! I guarantee you: Lay off the stimulants for awhile, and you will NOT be disappointed with ReCreate.

[datBtrue]

I really like Mullet. He's very knowledgeable...even tempered...patient... with the ability to kick some @ss when appropriate.

Of course he is more considerate. You're a potential customer.

I on the other hand have nothing to sell you.

Originally Posted by SimplyDraven

That's why I spend at least an hour a day browsing the AM forums.

Do yourself a favor. Skip all of the reading on supplements on this forum for lets say the last couple of years and go back into the archive. Look for posts by Bobo...you'll learn a lot & from them you'll pick up on a few other knowledgable guys including the very knowledgeable "alan aragon". All those posts/threads from back then are gold brother.

I learned a long time ago that it doesn't matter what the intent was...what matters is how it was perceived. You perceived my comments as making you "feel stupid for asking a question". So I apologize. I do not think you are a fat lazy bastard. I know that you are someone who has made very good gains in your transformation. I am not belittling you. To the extent that I have come across as diminishing you or your efforts I apologize.

I like you. I respect you. No worries bro.

[SimplyDraven]

I really appreciate the response man. Thanks for clearing up the drama. LoL.

Do yourself a favor. Skip all of the reading on supplements on this forum for lets say the last couple of years and go back into the archive. Look for posts by Bobo...you'll learn a lot & from them you'll pick up on a few other knowledgable guys including the very knowledgeable "alan aragon". All those posts/threads from back then are gold brother.

I will definitely take your advice on that. I'm even going to try really hard not to picture "Bobo" as a grown man with big floppy shoes, a red foam nose, and white face paint, that goes around touching little boys.

Thanks for the props on the gains (or good losses actually). I appreciate it.

[datBtrue]

Originally Posted by SimplyDraven

...I will definitely take your advice on that. I'm even going to try really hard not to picture "Bobo" as a grown man with big floppy shoes, a red foam nose, and white face paint, that goes around touching little boys.

Thanks for the props on the gains (or good losses actually). I appreciate it.

Bobo is the owner of the board. Up until recently he took on clients and did their complete diets for them with all the tweaks that need to be done for indivduals.

I think you will have a hard time using the search function to find his posts. The username Bobo is deleted I think.

He posts under various characters from Seinfeld now. He is "J. Peterman" now I believe but his old posts are connected to that username but the search by username is not connected to those old posts.

Try the advanced search "Key Word:" Bobo

The search will only return 2 pages of results at a time so you'll have to play around with the search options.

Here's his first post before he ended up taking the forum over.

11-04-2002 "Just want to say hello to everyone I know here from bb.com. I just registered and will be posting here more often. Looks like a real nice forum."

Here's a thread he dropped some of his knowledge into about 5 years ago:

Determinants of post-exercise glycogen synthesis during short-term recovery

Determinants of post-exercise glycogen synthesis during short-term recovery

Read his responses in that thread and you'll be hungry to read more from this "clown".

Later.
-Dat

[SimplyDraven]

Read his responses in that thread and you'll be hungry to read more from this "clown".

Lol i like the closing statement. Very nice.

Thanks again for your help dat. When Im finished reading the thread im on right now, that thread will be next on my list. I look forward to it.