Anabolic Diet Questions ( General CKD / Ketosis )

[proeliator]

Alright, I've been reading everything I can get my hands on concerning the keto-style diets, and from this I've put together some questions and hoping the minds here can help me out

1. Shouldn't BCAAs become more important now than ever?
In my humble logic, I would believe that during the assessment phase and at the end of the weeks during normal weeks, shouldn't BCAAs be a staple during workouts and post workout? Since all training is in some form catabolic, from my understanding the absense of glycogen in muscles while training on the AD seems to promote catabolism earlier. Wouldn't supplementation of BCAAs through the entire workout help with making sure the body is only burning ketones for energy? I may be way off here, but just wanted to ask.

2. How much fish oil should I try to get in / day?
This is something I haven't been able to pin down. I'm about 270lbs @ ~15% bf.

3. Does the old addage of AM cardio still apply?
Traditionally, I subscribed to the idea of AM cardio before eating, but of course doing low intensity cardio, and depending on how lean I was getting, I'd add in BCAAs during. The logic behind that was based on burning fat, since muscular glycogen would be low from the fasting of 8 hours of sleep. Since I have basically NO muscle glycogen at all when on the AD assessment phase, is morning cardio worth it? Is timed cardio worth it?

4. (Carryover from 3) Is post workout cardio as effective ?
By the same principle of #3, is post workout cardio as important? Again, since I don't have muscle glycogen to worry about burning, would the added CNS tax from doing PWO cardio be more or less valuable while on the AD? Would it be better to simply schedule cardio mid morning, have ample time to recover, then weight train in the evening?

Alright, thats all I have for now, I hope this thread can help answer questions others have as well.

TIA

 

[proeliator]

5. Use of L-carnitine and its effects
From previous cutting cycles I've gone through, I believed L-carnitine to be very helpful for burning fat during workout especially when supplementing it pre and post AM cardio, then pre and post PM weight train + cardio.

Based on my rudimentary understanding of what it does, it would seem to be a great supplement to use on the Anabolic Diet because of its effects on fat metabolism, but I didn't see any mention of it in the book, nor in postings on here.

Is playing with the bodies ability to metabolize fat a good idea, when existing on a ketogenic diet? It seems like a great idea to me, but I might be an idiot in disguise, I don't know yet

TIA

 

[proeliator]

Use of EVOO

When using extra vigin olive oil in food preparation, does it "count" when put in a pan and the chicken breast is cooked in the oil, or does it need to but used as a sort of condiment? This may be a stupid question, I understand, but I don't fully understand, as I don't usually cook with oils.

 

[proeliator]

bump

 

[skunkman]

1. BCAA can be to your advantage on any type of eating. Many vets on the AD and myself have used it with success. It is not necessary. I believe that DiPasquale talks about being able to drop a lot of supps due to the nature of the diet. Add it if you see fit.

2. Shoot for around 10g of fish oil per day. You can use more if your budget allows. If you search around poloquin advocates the use of mega doses of 30-50g a day.

3. As far as cardio goes you can due it at any time of the day as your body is in "fat" burning mode through out the diet.

4. After weights cardio can be performed but won't be as important as a carb based diet. IME

5. Not sure about the L-carnitine. Will have to do some searching. I believe that it will be fine to use though.

As far as olive oil goes it depends on if your bulking or cutting. I don't really like counting calories so it really depends on how anal you are about your cutting. Bulking......well who keeps track of oil used to cook when bulking?

 

[proeliator]

Eating times of the day

Does this matter as much as it did on a moderate carbohydrate style diet?

I know alot of that dealt with managing the insulin response generated from eating carbohydrate dense foods, but is this much different with keto-style diets? I find that I go much longer in between getting hungry, and even eat more later in the day than earlier.

Any thoughts on this?

 

[skunkman]

I am going to go ahead and assume that you are cutting. Correct?

If that is the case, then eating all your calories at one meal will be effective.l It doesn't really matter. From my understanding, a calorie is a calorie. So as long as you are below maintenance you will lose and vice versa.

Personally I believe that a person can accomplish their goals in a number of ways. The meal frequency thing is a way to curb appetite. I simply do not take the time to eat six meals and usually end up with three main meals and pre and peri work out shakes 4x a week.

I also try and condense my calories and allow my body to fast for 15-18 hours a day. Some times upwards of 24. If you are going to be eating the same thing (or relatively close) at the same time everyday the majority should not be at bedtime. I usually don't eat 3 hours before I sleep.

Have you read the book?

 

[Distilled Water]

I also try and condense my calories and allow my body to fast for 15-18 hours a day. Some times upwards of 24. If you are going to be eating the same thing (or relatively close) at the same time everyday the majority should not be at bedtime. I usually don't eat 3 hours before I sleep.

Have you read the book?

Sorry but I think thats terrible advice. 24 hours of fasting? Your body will go into starvation mode if you do that enough.

Eating small frequent meals isn't necessarily a way to curb appetite but rather to keep your metabolism in high gear. You metabolism stats to slow down after true hunger pains start.

 

[skunkman]

I agree that it may not be the best advice for someone who is just starting out.

I should have explained in a little more detail. If one was to fast for 24 hours the next eating cycle would be almost double your BMR. Not quite double for me. More like 4500 calories. By doing this it allows me to stay relatively lean. Provides the benefits of a longer life, and also the ability to constantly deny myself food has had dramatic effects on my food cravings.

So it goes some thing like this:

Day 1: 8:00 - Breakfast
10:00 - Shake
12:00 - Lunch
2:00 - PWO Shake

Day 2: 12:00 - Eat
2:00 - PWO Shake
Etc,etc Repeat Day 1

I'm not going to go through the whole thing but a quick search on intermittent fasting can bring up some interesting stuff.
Personally I believe that if one is not a bodybuilder by profession
a period of hunger can be very beneficial to the typical American who has food available 24/7. Even a body builder can benefit in the off season.

All of this multi meals per day thing makes food too much of a chore. Plus the majority of people that do have 6 meals are really only eating 3 maybe 4 solid meals. The real issue with people dropping the fat is not because they failed to eat 6 meals a day. It is because of the calories in vs. calories out.

It is basically waving calories. At the end of the week you should end up with fewer calories in compared to how many you estimated you are burning for the week. The whole 24 hour thing is a personal suggestion that should not be followed unless one is educated and wishes to partake in the benefits that it entails.

Your are right Distilled Water. I should not be recommending 24 hour fast to people when I really have no idea of their nutritional intake history.

 

[Distilled Water]

I agree that it may not be the best advice for someone who is just starting out.

I should have explained in a little more detail. If one was to fast for 24 hours the next eating cycle would be almost double your BMR. Not quite double for me. More like 4500 calories. By doing this it allows me to stay relatively lean. Provides the benefits of a longer life, and also the ability to constantly deny myself food has had dramatic effects on my food cravings.

So it goes some thing like this:

Day 1: 8:00 - Breakfast
10:00 - Shake
12:00 - Lunch
2:00 - PWO Shake

Day 2: 12:00 - Eat
2:00 - PWO Shake
Etc,etc Repeat Day 1

I'm not going to go through the whole thing but a quick search on intermittent fasting can bring up some interesting stuff.
Personally I believe that if one is not a bodybuilder by profession
a period of hunger can be very beneficial to the typical American who has food available 24/7. Even a body builder can benefit in the off season.

All of this multi meals per day thing makes food too much of a chore. Plus the majority of people that do have 6 meals are really only eating 3 maybe 4 solid meals. The real issue with people dropping the fat is not because they failed to eat 6 meals a day. It is because of the calories in vs. calories out.

It is basically waving calories. At the end of the week you should end up with fewer calories in compared to how many you estimated you are burning for the week. The whole 24 hour thing is a personal suggestion that should not be followed unless one is educated and wishes to partake in the benefits that it entails.

Your are right Distilled Water. I should not be recommending 24 hour fast to people when I really have no idea of their nutritional intake history.

Ok cool dude, I get where you coming from. You just came on a little strong it seemed and well its the internet so tone is a hard thing to get across.

What you saying closely resembles the radical diet I believe. From what I've seen it is very effective. Thank you for further explaining you answer :thumbsup:

 

[skunkman]

I kind of get windy in my post and some things probably are lost but the calories I am consuming are not anywhere near the radical diet. Lately I have been about 3500 below maintenance for the week. So averaging 500 less per day.

 

[Swanson52]

I kind of get windy in my post and some things probably are lost but the calories I am consuming are not anywhere near the radical diet. Lately I have been about 3500 below maintenance for the week. So averaging 500 less per day.

That is the one thing that concerns me about the Radical Diet. Am I eating too FEW calories a day, thus keeping my metabolism slowed? Does it matter?

I am following DiPasquale's book to the letter, and to be honest, I am certain I am getting more protein than I was prior TO the diet, but nowhere near the carbs and fat. I am not overly concerned with muscle catabolism right now, but I want to be certain I am losing FAT.

For instance-now I get anywhere between 150 and 200g of protien a day, where before my diet was probably getting me 100g, but TONS of carbs and fat (likely 150+g of fat and certainly 300-400g carbs-that's fast food for you).

 

[skunkman]

First off I haven't read the radical diet so take this for what it is worth.

If you are eating such a low amount of calories you will lose fat and muscle. Your metabolism is going to slow down. That is why it recomended that you have a very strict transition phase or else you will gain some or all the fat back with less muscle. Not a good situation.
It is almost impossible to lose fat at the rate induced by a vlcd and maintain muscle. Only the obese and androgen pumped can pull it off. If you look at the stickys I believe that a guy at avant basically did the same calorie range (with tuna) but he also outlines a way to use some sort of PH.

I am not exactly sure what your trying to ask besides the metabolism thing but IMO vlcd diets should be reserved for the cases above.

As far as being concerned about your metabolism it totally depends on your goals. Being 90lbm over weight at one time I too did not care about muscle. All I wanted was to be normal and not be seen as a fat ass. I lost 75lbm in about 4 months and I looked and felt terrible.I actually was made fun of more for all the flabby skin. It took me another 4 months to build up the muscle I lost and lose the fat. Inn the end I basically fell into the 2 lb a week average that most natural bodybuilders strives for.

I don't know every trick in the book so it is very possible that it will work for you and give you the drive that you need to accomplish your goals. I am not going to say that one way is better because the emotional aspect is probably the biggest factor when trying to become fit. If it gives you the drive, great. Do it. If can see yourself eating sensibly for the the long run I would definitely recommend that.

 

[Swanson52]

Thanks for the reply.

Yes, I am obese, I'm fat. I am currently 294, with 22%bf (just had it tested this week, caliper method), putting me at 64# over lbm. I have decent muscle mass, I'm just to the point where I don't care about that right now-I'm sick of carrying the fat and its effects on my health.

Now, I guess the question that I have is this (I would like your opinion); if you had to do it over, losing the 75 pounds, would you do it with JUST the Anabolic Solution? Would you go for the recomp rather than the extreme cut, then work on muscle mass?

I look terrible now, but feel OK eating the calorie restricted diet. I have energy for cardio (running and swimming), basketball (4-5 hours a week), and daily activities. I sleep a regular 8 hours, get excellent rest and have no lethargy.

I have done research, but real world feedback is very valuable, IMO. I know everyone is different, but I like to hear everyone's opinions.

 

[skunkman]

When I started it was basically a 40-40-20 diet. I chose this because when i signed up for AM back in 04 bobo was allot more active on this board. (Jerry just seems to chime in when he seems fit. No studies or nothing :whiner I never signed up to use his services but absorbed allot of the info he was putting out there.

Really to tell you the truth man if you are sticking with the rad diet and it is working, ride it out. Drop some fat and build some confidence. It will produce results, especially on the scale.

Remember that if you are doing this the correct way you are going to need to take some time and slowly introduce cals after the loss. The longer and lower cals you stay the longer the transition phase back to your BMR is going to be. You will not be losing fat at this time.

As far as your question goes I couldn't see myself coming up with the motivation unless I was seeing daily or weekly changes. I was too impatient and wanted to see results. If I could do it over again with the mind set of today I would. That being said I was way to much of a pussy back in the day and wanted instant gratification for my hard work. I guess I should also mention that
the first two months I was eating around 2500 calories and losing weight. After that I started seeing compliment and physical changes I began eating less and less everyday. almost to the point of anorexia. It was not the proper way to go but hey it did work.

If you have a number that you want to get to make yourself a plan. If you stick to your outline you will see results.

 

[Swanson52]

I hear you on the transition, and I plan to formulate a way to get back to a normal caloric intacke once I get to about 275. I wanted to use the Radical Diet to get the first, say, 25 off and start feeling better (back, neck, knees), then gradually reintroduce caloires while still sticking to the Anabolic Diet.

Given that I am intensely carb sensitive, I intend to utilize the Anabolic prinicples in my eating habits indefinitely. However, like you suggested, I plan to slowly increase those calories while slowing down my fat loss, and possible increasing or at least maintaining muscle until I get down to around 12-15% bf, regardless of weight.

Thanks for your replies, I appreciate your insight.